Is Islam a political ideology of conquest more than a religion?

33,711 Views | 477 Replies | Last: 8 days ago by The_barBEARian
ron.reagan
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
2:34p, 10/19/24
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/al-qaeda-adviser-calls-for-hamas-to-free-hostages-says-attention-overshadowing-fate-of-palestinian-prisoners/

Al-Qaeda slighty better than Biden and UN in peace keeping
Reply Quote
1
Sam Lowry
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to whiterock • 4:55p, 10/20/24
whiterock said:
Sam Lowry said:
Redbrickbear said:
Sam Lowry said:
Redbrickbear said:
Porteroso said:
historian said:
Porteroso said:
Realitybites said:
Porteroso said:

Are you that ignorant of history? To think Muslims just out of nowhere invaded parts of Europe before the Crusades?


That is precisely what they did.


It was absolutely not out of nowhere. Islam spread the least in Europe. And then many Muslim invasions were the same people who had a history of conquest, but now a new religion.

My point is you cannot blame the religion for the invasions into Europe, when most of these peoples had been invading far before Islam.

The Muslims spread the least in Europe because they were stopped. Charlemagne's grandpa (Charles Martel) stopped them at tours in southern France but they still controlled Iberia for centuries. The Hapsburg stopped them at the gates of Vienna twice in the 16th & 17th centuries but the occupied much of the Balkans for centuries after. The Ottomans were in gradual decline for well over a century and their empire collapsed by being on the losing side in WWI.

They spread the least in Europe because it was an impractical place to invade. The current Middle East and Africa were much easier. If they had had direct access to Europe, things would have gone differently.

None of this is relevant to the discussion. These were peoples in constant turmoil, constantly invading each other forever. Islam was used as a vehicle to unite them and spread an ideology, but I still maintain the religion itself is not one of conquest. Zealotry doesn't change facts.

The vast majority of Muslims today just want what everyone else wants. A huge percentage of Muslims self identify as religious extremists, but still are concentrated in 1 part of the world.
1. Yes its possible Islam was not even invented yet when the Arabs began their expansion/invasions.

It might have been a later invention/creation used to justify the initial invasions/wars

Its and interesting topic....with scholars divided over the existence of Muhammad and the creation of the Qu'ran before the expansion.

2. Whatever the truth of Islam's obscure origins....it now has a distinctive war philosophy that other faiths just do not have.

[Islam divides the entire world into the Dar al-harb and the Dar al-l slam. Dar al-harb - the world of the sword, the infidel and perpetual war. Countries that are non- Muslim reside in the dar al-harb. Individuals from the dar al-harb are designated as harbi, "enemy person, person from the territory of war." Dar al-Islam - the Land of Islam and peace. Peace on earth does not come until the entire world has been made of Dar at-Islam. Islam is under permanent jihad obligation to reduce the dar alharb to non-existence.]

https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading%20Room/Joint_Staff/13-F-0117_DOC_07-course-materials-perspectives-on-Islam_and_Islamic_radicalism.pdf

I don't think history is the Jorge Scientific Corporation's area of expertise.



How about Brown University?



It's a bit better. Here's what they don't tell you, though:

Quote:
With the withdrawal of imperialist and mandate authorities from the Middle East and elsewhere, modern Muslim nations have for the most part provided themselves with practical, eclectic law codes that draw on ideas from both the Muslim tradition and the West. It is in the traditional practical areas of marriage, divorce, and inheritance that the influence of the sharah has been strongest. Some countries (e.g., Tunisia) have achieved notably progressive codes of personal status while still asserting a very creative interpretative link between the code and the tradition of fiqh. The greatest theoretician of the idea that the sharah could be a source for practical and effective codification was probably the Egyptian jurist Abd al-Razzq al-Sanhr, who played a part in drafting new civil codes for more than one Arab country. The magnitude of the achievement of modern Muslim states in creating and implementing their new legal structures is rarely appreciated outside legal circles, but it is an achievement of immense importance and complexity, and not one that is unduly at odds with the practical history of the sharah.

***

In reality, Muslim groups have lived outside of Muslim territory since the second century of Islam, and significant Muslim populations have lived in Western countries for several generations. The theoretical dichotomy between dr al-Islm and dr al-arb is now widely considered inapplicable. As Muslims can safely and openly practice and propagate Islam in most minority contexts, many contemporary jurists even consider the West to be part of dr al-Islm.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160326194942/http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/print/opr/t236/e0473
the cited material gets the context correct then botches the conclusion.

the rise of islamism was a direct counter-reaction to the colonial experience. The islamic world emerged from Colonialism during the Cold War. There was an awful lot of foreign aid available for nations to seek in exchange for loyalty to one side or the other. That tended to drive models of post-colonial governance in the islamic world in one of two directions: hereditary kingship (largely western aligned) and Arab socialism (mostly either non-aligned or defacto allied with USSR/PRC). BOTH models severely repressed the islamists, far moreso than the colonial powers did. The end of the Cold War era stopped the flow of foreign aid, which stripped those post-colonial structures of the power they needed to offset shortocmings in legitimacy. And there the islamists stood, uncorrupted by foreign interests. "simple, pure, clean...." The entire islamic world began looking to islamic heritage for inspiration on how to move away from codes & structures of civil governance and administration heavily influenced by centuries of colonialsm. The only variance was in matters of degree. Every islamic country moved more islamic.....islamist parties becoming plurality blocs in the electorate. Islamist leaders started popped up in legislative and executive leadership positions. And both laws and government structures tended to move toward islamic models.

That kind of dynamic is an old one = "returning to ones roots." After centuries of being politically, economically, and socially isolated, islamists were...."simple, clean, pure....." Uncontaminated by foreign interests. Looking to return the islamic world to greatness by returning to roots.

Returning to "first principles" is a very common yearning in at least parts of societies in turmoil.
"Do not fear the simple, pure, clean islam of Muhammad." I heard that a thousand times........ Those folks thought they really had it all figured out. And now, after a couple decades of having to make water & sewer flow, reality is bringing them back to ground.
Islamism was less a direct reaction to colonialism than to Cold War and post-Cold War policies themselves. Post-colonial Islam had considerable interest in studying democracy and reaping the benefits thereof. The trouble was that the West wouldn't tolerate such things in our neocolonial domain. We preferred radical Islam and in many cases actively promoted it over the alternatives of Arab nationalism, socialism, or alignment with Russia.
Reply Quote
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
8:56a, 3/12/25
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
Redbrickbear
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:10p, 3/14/25
Reply Quote
1
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Redbrickbear • 9:13p, 3/14/25
Redbrickbear said:
Fake news.
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:19p, 3/14/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
1
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
11:11p, 3/15/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
1
Redbrickbear
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:16a, 3/18/25
Reply Quote
The_barBEARian
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Redbrickbear • 2:43p, 3/18/25
Redbrickbear said:

Is 2.5 million a typo?

Cause that seems really cheap.
Reply Quote
1
Redbrickbear
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to The_barBEARian • 2:49p, 3/18/25
The_barBEARian said:
Redbrickbear said:

Is 2.5 million a typo?

Cause that seems really cheap.

Probably
Reply Quote
1
1 edit
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to The_barBEARian • 2:49p, 3/18/25
The_barBEARian said:
Redbrickbear said:

Is 2.5 million a typo?

Cause that seems really cheap.
It's in pounds but even with that conversion, it's about 3.25 US
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
1
ATL Bear
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Assassin • 3:04p, 3/18/25
Assassin said:
The_barBEARian said:
Redbrickbear said:

Is 2.5 million a typo?

Cause that seems really cheap.
It's in pounds but even with that conversion, it's about 3.25 US
If you've ever been in a mosque you'd know it's a giant drab unwindowed hall. Don't need seating or much in amenities. You can actually build a decent size mosque for that amount.
Reply Quote
Redbrickbear
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to ATL Bear • 6:28p, 3/18/25
ATL Bear said:
Assassin said:
The_barBEARian said:
Redbrickbear said:

Is 2.5 million a typo?

Cause that seems really cheap.
It's in pounds but even with that conversion, it's about 3.25 US
If you've ever been in a mosque you'd know it's a giant drab unwindowed hall. Don't need seating or much in amenities. You can actually build a decent size mosque for that amount.


Yep, pretty open and often bland

This guy makes a good point that they are one of the few that work well with modernism


Reply Quote
1 edit
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:50p, 3/18/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
1
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
6:53p, 3/21/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
1
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:59p, 4/19/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
1
Porteroso
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Assassin • 10:09p, 4/19/25
Assassin said:

No, we are in a country where religion is protected and free speech encouraged.
Reply Quote
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:34a, 5/7/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
3
Redbrickbear
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Porteroso • 10:42a, 5/7/25
Porteroso said:
Assassin said:

No, we are in a country where religion is protected and free speech encouraged.

But do we need to import in a hostile religious group into a country they have never had much of a presence in?


[In the 1960s, there were less than 20 mosques in the United States. ]


Reply Quote
1
Redbrickbear
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
1:18p, 5/15/25
[Jesus In Muslim Dreams

I've noted in this space before stories of Muslims having dreams of Jesus, sometimes of Mary, and leaving Islam for Christianity. I've wondered if there is something to it, or if this is just apocryphal tales from evangelizing circles. Well, one of this newsletter's readers messaged me this overnight:

Quote:
Today I was studying in a pretty much empty floor at my faculty (I appreciate the quiet), when I saw a young woman walk in and sit at the table next to me. What immediately drew my attention were this woman's facial expressions: she was distressed, as if something very shocking had happened that had made her anxious. I was almost tempted to ask if something was wrong. Shortly after, a man came in, introduced himself to the woman, and sat at the table with her. This man turned out to be some sort of Bible study leader. Since they were literally beside me, I could hear the entirety of their conversation even though my intention was to study, not eavesdrop. And basically this is the gist of it: the young woman was an immigrant from a Muslim country (she didn't mention which one), and was raised in a devout Muslim household, and was in the process of being married to another Muslim man arranged by her family.

But she had recently experienced something that had distressed her. Some time ago, she was tight asleep when she testifies that Jesus himself appeared to her in a dream, calling on her to follow him. She shook it off as just a weird dream, but the following night, it happened again! The Lord appeared to her once more, and this was enough to make her question her commitment to Islam.

Long story short: the experience has been enough to make her steadfast in her desire to convert to Christianity. but she is afraid because it means that her family will disown her as an apostate from Islam, hence her consultation with the man on how to best proceed. Notwithstanding the tragedy of the situation, I was honestly amazed. This today has convinced me even further of the power of the Gospel, the greatest story ever told. So great that a young 19 year old girl is willing to risk being thrown on the streets, in a foreign country, just so she can faithfully follow Christ.

I decided to tell you this because I want you to pray for this woman, so that God can protect her and guide her as she makes the right decision. But also to bear witness that those stories of Muslims being called by Christ in visions and dreams are TRUE. Its not hearsay or fairy tales or apologetic propaganda. The Lord is at work.

Amazing. But you know, if one of my children had a dream in which Muhammad, or an angel, appeared and called them to Islam, and they abandoned Christianity for that religion, I would assume that they had been tricked, while Muslims would understandably be cheering about how Allah had saved someone. I wonder what it is about dreams like this that are so convincing to Muslims who have them?
Can you imagine yourself having a dream, or a series of dreams, that would lead you away from your faith? Or, if you have no faith, that would lead you to embracing a religion? How can we know if the supernatural or paranormal experiences we have are true, or deceptions (either demonic, or generated from within our own psyches)?] -Rod Dreher
Reply Quote
3
J.R.
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
6:48p, 5/16/25
Well, Trumpy Bear has been in ME kissing their asses including Quatar who is the largest sponsor of Hamas and Saudi who's people flew jets into our buildings on 9/11 and Trumpy's new bestie MBS ordered the killing of one of our journalists and had him hacked up.
Reply Quote
1
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
6:19p, 5/19/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
1
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
12:27a, 5/25/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
1
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
5:51p, 5/25/25
The claim that China demolished a mosque in Xinjiang and built a public toilet is supported by evidence. The Tokul mosque in Suntagh village, Atush city, was razed in 2018, with a toilet built by 2020, per Radio Free Asia and WION News. This aligns with reports of widespread mosque demolitions in Xinjiang, estimated at 70% since 2017. China denies forced demolitions, framing them as safety reconstructions or "Sinicization." While the incident appears true, the broader context is debated, with China claiming urban development and critics alleging cultural suppression.

"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
1
1 edit
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:40a, 5/28/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
1
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:41a, 5/28/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
1
Redbrickbear
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
12:21a, 5/30/25
Reply Quote
2
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
8:52p, 6/2/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
2
historian
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:08p, 6/2/25
Reply Quote
1
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
5:21p, 6/3/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
2
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
3:27p, 6/5/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
Assassin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
3:48p, 6/5/25
"The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why." — Mark Twain
Reply Quote
TexasScientist
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Johnny Bear • 9:59a, 6/7/25
Johnny Bear said:
Islam is and always has been an intertwined religious, political, and social ideology where aggression and violence is not only condoned, but is encouraged if it advances the cause of Islam. To think of it as just another peaceful world religion like Christianity, Buddhism, or Hinduism is a mistake.
Christianity has an intertwined religious, political, and social ideology where aggression and violence is not only condoned, but encouraged past, in order to advance the cause of Christianity. The history of Christianity if mired in directed violence.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
Reply Quote
TexasScientist
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to historian • 10:03a, 6/7/25
historian said:
Porteroso said:
Realitybites said:
Porteroso said:

Are you that ignorant of history? To think Muslims just out of nowhere invaded parts of Europe before the Crusades?


That is precisely what they did.


It was absolutely not out of nowhere. Islam spread the least in Europe. And then many Muslim invasions were the same people who had a history of conquest, but now a new religion.

My point is you cannot blame the religion for the invasions into Europe, when most of these peoples had been invading far before Islam.

The Muslims spread the least in Europe because they were stopped. Charlemagne's grandpa (Charles Martel) stopped them at tours in southern France but they still controlled Iberia for centuries. The Hapsburg stopped them at the gates of Vienna twice in the 16th & 17th centuries but the occupied much of the Balkans for centuries after. The Ottomans were in gradual decline for well over a century and their empire collapsed by being on the losing side in WWI.
Both religions have violent histories.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
Reply Quote
TexasScientist
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Redbrickbear • 10:05a, 6/7/25
Redbrickbear said:
Their religion is their culture.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
Reply Quote
1
1 edit
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.