FLBear5630 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

FLorida, not sure why you can't give credit to DOGE for what they have/and still are accomplishing. I give Obama and Biden plenty of credit for screwing up the country.

---

Because this fraud investigation had nothing to do with DOGE. You guys act like nothing happened before DOGE. The FBI prosecuted 800 fraud cases a year about a B a year before Elon or Donald were elected. Get sick of MAGA changing narratives. It took more than Biden and Obama to get here. Bush and Trump played their part. Donald acts like he had nothing to do with it, he raised spending and deficit as much as NeoCom Bush...

---

Not sure what you are going on about. It's obvious that you hate DOGE. You've made that very clear. But the overages found at Medicare were from the Feb 2025 investigations that actually got into the Medicare books, not the superficial ones that BIden's DOJ pitter pattered about.

Assassin said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

FLorida, not sure why you can't give credit to DOGE for what they have/and still are accomplishing. I give Obama and Biden plenty of credit for screwing up the country.

---

Because this fraud investigation had nothing to do with DOGE. You guys act like nothing happened before DOGE. The FBI prosecuted 800 fraud cases a year about a B a year before Elon or Donald were elected. Get sick of MAGA changing narratives. It took more than Biden and Obama to get here. Bush and Trump played their part. Donald acts like he had nothing to do with it, he raised spending and deficit as much as NeoCom Bush...

---

Not sure what you are going on about. It's obvious that you hate DOGE. You've made that very clear. But the overages found at Medicare were from the Feb 2025 investigations that actually got into the Medicare books, not the superficial ones that BIden's DOJ pitter pattered about.

---

He doesn't just hate Doge. He railed for months that the whole thing was a wild goose chase, that there could not possibly be any significant fraud in the USG.

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

FLorida, not sure why you can't give credit to DOGE for what they have/and still are accomplishing. I give Obama and Biden plenty of credit for screwing up the country.

---

Because this fraud investigation had nothing to do with DOGE. You guys act like nothing happened before DOGE. The FBI prosecuted 800 fraud cases a year about a B a year before Elon or Donald were elected. Get sick of MAGA changing narratives. It took more than Biden and Obama to get here. Bush and Trump played their part. Donald acts like he had nothing to do with it, he raised spending and deficit as much as NeoCom Bush...

---

Not sure what you are going on about. It's obvious that you hate DOGE. You've made that very clear. But the overages found at Medicare were from the Feb 2025 investigations that actually got into the Medicare books, not the superficial ones that BIden's DOJ pitter pattered about.

---

He doesn't just hate Doge. He railed for months that the whole thing was a wild goose chase, that there could not possibly be any significant fraud in the USG.

---

Very strange views for someone who keeps insisting he wants costs cut. Then it gets done and raills against it

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

FLorida, not sure why you can't give credit to DOGE for what they have/and still are accomplishing. I give Obama and Biden plenty of credit for screwing up the country.

---

Because this fraud investigation had nothing to do with DOGE. You guys act like nothing happened before DOGE. The FBI prosecuted 800 fraud cases a year about a B a year before Elon or Donald were elected. Get sick of MAGA changing narratives. It took more than Biden and Obama to get here. Bush and Trump played their part. Donald acts like he had nothing to do with it, he raised spending and deficit as much as NeoCom Bush...

---

Not sure what you are going on about. It's obvious that you hate DOGE. You've made that very clear. But the overages found at Medicare were from the Feb 2025 investigations that actually got into the Medicare books, not the superficial ones that BIden's DOJ pitter pattered about.

---

He doesn't just hate Doge. He railed for months that the whole thing was a wild goose chase, that there could not possibly be any significant fraud in the USG.

---

Very strange views for someone who keeps insisting he wants costs cut. Then it gets done and raills against it

---

a once reasonable guy completely discombobulated by neverTrumpism.

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

FLorida, not sure why you can't give credit to DOGE for what they have/and still are accomplishing. I give Obama and Biden plenty of credit for screwing up the country.

---

Because this fraud investigation had nothing to do with DOGE. You guys act like nothing happened before DOGE. The FBI prosecuted 800 fraud cases a year about a B a year before Elon or Donald were elected. Get sick of MAGA changing narratives. It took more than Biden and Obama to get here. Bush and Trump played their part. Donald acts like he had nothing to do with it, he raised spending and deficit as much as NeoCom Bush...

---

Not sure what you are going on about. It's obvious that you hate DOGE. You've made that very clear. But the overages found at Medicare were from the Feb 2025 investigations that actually got into the Medicare books, not the superficial ones that BIden's DOJ pitter pattered about.

---

He doesn't just hate Doge. He railed for months that the whole thing was a wild goose chase, that there could not possibly be any significant fraud in the USG.

---

Very strange views for someone who keeps insisting he wants costs cut. Then it gets done and raills against it

---

a once reasonable guy completely discombobulated by neverTrumpism.

---

I guess he is, now that you mention it

Curious if the OP read about the bill passed last week - cut $9B?

Contracts Update!

Over the last 3 days, agencies terminated 80 wasteful contracts with a ceiling value of $831M and savings of $436M, including a DoT $265k professional services contract for “planning and environment workshop and roundtable discussion”. pic.twitter.com/sVWqsuIxc7

— Department of Government Efficiency (@DOGE) July 20, 2025

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

So are we still making fun of DOGE? Are the government cuts and savings still considered insignificant?

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

So are we still making fun of DOGE? Are the government cuts and savings still considered insignificant?

---

Not to me.

Assassin said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

So are we still making fun of DOGE? Are the government cuts and savings still considered insignificant?

---

Not to me.

---

"A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money."
-Sen. Everitt Dirksen (by attribution).


(Dirksen later in life denied having said that....."oh, a newspaper fella once misquoted me. I thought it sounded so good I never bothered to deny it.")

Assassin said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

FLorida, not sure why you can't give credit to DOGE for what they have/and still are accomplishing. I give Obama and Biden plenty of credit for screwing up the country.

---

Because this fraud investigation had nothing to do with DOGE. You guys act like nothing happened before DOGE. The FBI prosecuted 800 fraud cases a year about a B a year before Elon or Donald were elected. Get sick of MAGA changing narratives. It took more than Biden and Obama to get here. Bush and Trump played their part. Donald acts like he had nothing to do with it, he raised spending and deficit as much as NeoCom Bush...

---

Not sure what you are going on about. It's obvious that you hate DOGE. You've made that very clear. But the overages found at Medicare were from the Feb 2025 investigations that actually got into the Medicare books, not the superficial ones that BIden's DOJ pitter pattered about.

---

I have nothing against DOGE. I have a lot against this notion and propaganda that nothing was being done like DOGE before Trump. GAO has been doing this for decades. DOJ and the Agencies have been investigating and prosecuting fraud for decades. THIS IS NOT NEW. It is you guys crowing about stuff that has been happening under GOP and Dem Presidents for decades as if it is a Trump/Musk new idea. Look at the court files, most of the Grand Juries me in 2024 before the election. You do not find, prove and try fraud in 6 months.


As for size of Government, for the size and breadth of our Nation the size of Government has not changed as a percent of population for 50 years. It is about the same size in relation to the size of the Nation as it was under JFK. Yet we are doing more for a relatively low cost to the Nation. The last time we did this was Clinton in the 90's, so I do think it is necessary. I am all for cracking down. I am all for getting rid of those NOT doing their jobs. What we are seeing is not that. The cuts are being made based on what Trump likes and doesn't like, mainly if it is a Dem initiative. No analysis. It is a marketing/propaganda campaign, not really doing anything.

Finally, look at all the "savings" and then look at the budget it is a reallocation of the same or more money based on politics. We are not saving anything, actually this "reconcilliation" is costing us more.

It is the marketing and Bannon-propaganda strategies that piss me off. There is nothing new here, if Trump does it like Clinton did and makes real progress more power to him. BUT, don't villanize everyone else, we have been doing this stuff for decades.


Here is GAO on improper payments and fraud, going back until 2023.

Fraud & Improper Payments | U.S. GAO

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government, I know it is not fraud. But, it is DOGE related.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

That's a silly argument. Government does not necessarily need to be proportional to the population. The fact someone took the time to write that and someone actually thought it was serious speaks volumes. We live in a stupid country.

I do agree we should eliminate 75% of the federal government and have the states administer most of what it does today. The federal government really should be national defense and some law enforcement. Most everything else could be managed at the state level.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

That's a silly argument. Government does not necessarily need to be proportional to the population. The fact someone took the time to write that and someone actually thought it was serious speaks volumes. We live in a stupid country.

I do agree we should eliminate 75% of the federal government and have the states administer most of what it does today. The federal government really should be national defense and some law enforcement. Most everything else could be managed at the state level.

---

You really think that the Government service cost is not related to population size and geographic area? Defense and some law enforcement? You can't be serious, to simplify it look at an Annexation Study from your local Government. Same concept, the cost of services, infrastructure and protection all go up with increased population and geography. If the tax based can't support that most jurisdictions can't allow the Annexation without a tax increase. What you will get is that it will be a tax increase doing what you guys want, just not in Federal Income Tax Trump will keep that down. You will just pay more everywhere else.

Let's discuss the transfer to the State... Feds are going to transfer the money to the States in Block Grants, we do it now in Transportation. States do not have the capacity to handle what the Feds have been doing outside of Transportation. The State bureaucracy is going to balloon, where do you think those fired Feds are going? The States and locals.... Already happening with the DOGE cuts. We now have relocated Feds managing State Agencies and more consultants than ever because the States need help to do what the Fed did. Based on these genius moves the Bureaucracy in the US is going to be twice what it was before Trump. Federal budget will be bigger, State Sales Taxes will go up. It is all a shell game...

Excerpt from Newsweek...

"The job market: For starters, states are putting up "We're hiring" signs for fired federal workers, as Adam Edelman reports.

Governors around the country are attempting to recruit these employees for public and private sector jobs in their states, while providing them with other resources as they exit their current positions and search for their next.

It's primarily Democratic governors in blue states who are leading the charge. New York Gov. Kathy Hochul launched the "You're Hired" initiative this week, specifically targeting federal workers for state government roles who have lost their jobs as a result of the Department of Government Efficiency's cost-cutting efforts.
Hawaii Gov. Josh Green recently signed an executive order instituting an expedited hiring process for qualified federal employees who are on their way out and seeking employment in state government positions.
One Republican, Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin, is getting in on the effort too by advertising 250,000 open private sector positions in the state. Virginia, home to approximately 340,000 federal workers, could be one of the states most affected by DOGE's job cuts. "

So now, those of us who spent our careers working with small towns have to deal with these relocated Feds that are turning EVERYTHING into bureaucratic nightmare because most elected officials believe that the ability to manage big is a good indicator of managing small... They could not be more wrong, totally different skill sets. They go from having a ton of people and resources to a local or state government with none. They end up falling back on performance metricing everything. Ever try to do peformance metrics on a Dept of one or two? It is comical DOGE is creating a cluster****...

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

That's a silly argument. Government does not necessarily need to be proportional to the population. The fact someone took the time to write that and someone actually thought it was serious speaks volumes. We live in a stupid country.

I do agree we should eliminate 75% of the federal government and have the states administer most of what it does today. The federal government really should be national defense and some law enforcement. Most everything else could be managed at the state level.

---

You really think that the Government service cost is not related to population size and geographic area? Defense and some law enforcement? You can't be serious, to simplify it look at an Annexation Study from your local Government. Same concept, the cost of services, infrastructure and protection all go up with increased population and geography. If the tax based can't support that most jurisdictions can't allow the Annexation without a tax increase. What you will get is that it will be a tax increase doing what you guys want, just not in Federal Income Tax Trump will keep that down. You will just pay more everywhere else.

Let's discuss the transfer to the State... Feds are going to transfer the money to the States in Block Grants, we do it now in Transportation. States do not have the capacity to handle what the Feds have been doing outside of Transportation. The State bureaucracy is going to balloon, where do you think those fired Feds are going? The States and locals.... Already happening with the DOGE cuts. We now have relocated Feds managing State Agencies and more consultants than ever because the States need help to do what the Fed did. Based on these genius moves the Bureaucracy in the US is going to be twice what it was before Trump. Federal budget will be bigger, State Sales Taxes will go up. It is all a shell game...

Excerpt from Newsweek...

"The job market: For starters, states are putting up "We're hiring" signs for fired federal workers, as Adam Edelman reports.

Governors around the country are attempting to recruit these employees for public and private sector jobs in their states, while providing them with other resources as they exit their current positions and search for their next.

It's primarily Democratic governors in blue states who are leading the charge. New York Gov. Kathy Hochul launched the "You're Hired" initiative this week, specifically targeting federal workers for state government roles who have lost their jobs as a result of the Department of Government Efficiency's cost-cutting efforts.
Hawaii Gov. Josh Green recently signed an executive order instituting an expedited hiring process for qualified federal employees who are on their way out and seeking employment in state government positions.
One Republican, Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin, is getting in on the effort too by advertising 250,000 open private sector positions in the state. Virginia, home to approximately 340,000 federal workers, could be one of the states most affected by DOGE's job cuts. "

So now, those of us who spent our careers working with small towns have to deal with these relocated Feds that are turning EVERYTHING into bureaucratic nightmare because most elected officials believe that the ability to manage big is a good indicator of managing small... They could not be more wrong, totally different skill sets. They go from having a ton of people and resources to a local or state government with none. They end up falling back on performance metricing everything. Ever try to do peformance metrics on a Dept of one or two? It is comical DOGE is creating a cluster****...

---

It depends. With population growth, you need more postmen but not more postmasters. What your elementary school article also misses is the impact of technology. The government should be exponentially more efficient than it was 100 years ago, but as your own stupid analysis notes, it's roughly the same size in terms of population. That's the problem with government, is the incentives are reversed - one is rewarded for inefficiency and spending vs. rewarded for running a tight ship.

What services do you think must be done by the federal government? Make the case.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

That's a silly argument. Government does not necessarily need to be proportional to the population. The fact someone took the time to write that and someone actually thought it was serious speaks volumes. We live in a stupid country.

I do agree we should eliminate 75% of the federal government and have the states administer most of what it does today. The federal government really should be national defense and some law enforcement. Most everything else could be managed at the state level.

---

You really think that the Government service cost is not related to population size and geographic area? Defense and some law enforcement? You can't be serious, to simplify it look at an Annexation Study from your local Government. Same concept, the cost of services, infrastructure and protection all go up with increased population and geography. If the tax based can't support that most jurisdictions can't allow the Annexation without a tax increase. What you will get is that it will be a tax increase doing what you guys want, just not in Federal Income Tax Trump will keep that down. You will just pay more everywhere else.

Let's discuss the transfer to the State... Feds are going to transfer the money to the States in Block Grants, we do it now in Transportation. States do not have the capacity to handle what the Feds have been doing outside of Transportation. The State bureaucracy is going to balloon, where do you think those fired Feds are going? The States and locals.... Already happening with the DOGE cuts. We now have relocated Feds managing State Agencies and more consultants than ever because the States need help to do what the Fed did. Based on these genius moves the Bureaucracy in the US is going to be twice what it was before Trump. Federal budget will be bigger, State Sales Taxes will go up. It is all a shell game...

Excerpt from Newsweek...

"The job market: For starters, states are putting up "We're hiring" signs for fired federal workers, as Adam Edelman reports.

Governors around the country are attempting to recruit these employees for public and private sector jobs in their states, while providing them with other resources as they exit their current positions and search for their next.

It's primarily Democratic governors in blue states who are leading the charge. New York Gov. Kathy Hochul launched the "You're Hired" initiative this week, specifically targeting federal workers for state government roles who have lost their jobs as a result of the Department of Government Efficiency's cost-cutting efforts.
Hawaii Gov. Josh Green recently signed an executive order instituting an expedited hiring process for qualified federal employees who are on their way out and seeking employment in state government positions.
One Republican, Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin, is getting in on the effort too by advertising 250,000 open private sector positions in the state. Virginia, home to approximately 340,000 federal workers, could be one of the states most affected by DOGE's job cuts. "

So now, those of us who spent our careers working with small towns have to deal with these relocated Feds that are turning EVERYTHING into bureaucratic nightmare because most elected officials believe that the ability to manage big is a good indicator of managing small... They could not be more wrong, totally different skill sets. They go from having a ton of people and resources to a local or state government with none. They end up falling back on performance metricing everything. Ever try to do peformance metrics on a Dept of one or two? It is comical DOGE is creating a cluster****...

---

It depends. With population growth, you need more postmen but not more postmasters. What your elementary school article also misses is the impact of technology. The government should be exponentially more efficient than it was 100 years ago, but as your own stupid analysis notes, it's roughly the same size in terms of population. That's the problem with government, is the incentives are reversed - one is rewarded for inefficiency and spending vs. rewarded for running a tight ship.

What services do you think must be done by the federal government? Make the case.

---

seems like the federal bureaucracy is the an entity almost totally unaffected by better education, gains in efficiency, and technological revolution. I mean, is there anything we can do to make any part of it unnecessary?

buggy whips and rotary phones may go away, but the long likes at the DMV never die.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

---

There is no Deep State. You worked in the Government, they give it too much credit to be that organized. There are some very smart people, but to get them all marching on the same foot? It is more like a bunch of very smart prairie dogs with a hawk overhead. Constantly scampering for cover and self-survival.

In terms of the Fed employee, making sure that count down of days left reaches "0". THAT is the only thing a Fed cares about, not pushing some rich guys agenda. No Fed is risking their employment and march to retirement and Federal Benefits for some anti-ANYONE agenda. The countdown starts on Day 1 and ends 30 years later. That doesn't mean they don't do their job, just that their motivation IS NOT Political.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

---

There is no Deep State. You worked in the Government, they give it too much credit to be that organized. There are some very smart people, but to get them all marching on the same foot? It is more like a bunch of very smart prairie dogs with a hawk overhead. Constantly scampering for cover and self-survival.

In terms of the Fed employee, making sure that count down of days left reaches "0". THAT is the only thing a Fed cares about, not pushing some rich guys agenda. No Fed is risking their employment and march to retirement and Federal Benefits for some anti-ANYONE agenda. The countdown starts on Day 1 and ends 30 years later. That doesn't mean they don't do their job, just that their motivation IS NOT Political.

---

One of the dumbest posts. Of course there are the average Joe's working along. But when it comes to agendas and money, there is always people in roles that can enforce the will through the right people.
The Deep State exists, the existence of average Joe's doesn't change that. They're just the lemmings doing their job.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

---

There is no Deep State. You worked in the Government, they give it too much credit to be that organized. There are some very smart people, but to get them all marching on the same foot? It is more like a bunch of very smart prairie dogs with a hawk overhead. Constantly scampering for cover and self-survival.

In terms of the Fed employee, making sure that count down of days left reaches "0". THAT is the only thing a Fed cares about, not pushing some rich guys agenda. No Fed is risking their employment and march to retirement and Federal Benefits for some anti-ANYONE agenda. The countdown starts on Day 1 and ends 30 years later. That doesn't mean they don't do their job, just that their motivation IS NOT Political.

---

One of the dumbest posts. Of course there are the average Joe's working along. But when it comes to agendas and money, there is always people in roles that can enforce the will through the right people.
The Deep State exists, the existence of average Joe's doesn't change that. They're just the lemmings doing their job.

---

You keep believing in those conspiracies... Bannon needs your contributions and likes.

You keep believing that a secret society of powerful elites have hatched and embarked on a plan to launch a full-scale, global takeover. Mankind is counting on you to save the world. Do you have your decoder ring?

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

---

There is no Deep State. You worked in the Government, they give it too much credit to be that organized. There are some very smart people, but to get them all marching on the same foot? It is more like a bunch of very smart prairie dogs with a hawk overhead. Constantly scampering for cover and self-survival.

In terms of the Fed employee, making sure that count down of days left reaches "0". THAT is the only thing a Fed cares about, not pushing some rich guys agenda. No Fed is risking their employment and march to retirement and Federal Benefits for some anti-ANYONE agenda. The countdown starts on Day 1 and ends 30 years later. That doesn't mean they don't do their job, just that their motivation IS NOT Political.

---

One of the dumbest posts. Of course there are the average Joe's working along. But when it comes to agendas and money, there is always people in roles that can enforce the will through the right people.
The Deep State exists, the existence of average Joe's doesn't change that. They're just the lemmings doing their job.

---

You keep believing in those conspiracies... Bannon needs your contributions and likes.

You keep believing that a secret society of powerful elites have hatched and embarked on a plan to launch a full-scale, global takeover. Mankind is counting on you to save the world. Do you have your decoder ring?

---

Conspiracies exist. Pretending that they don't is a sign that you're highly gullible. Likely shows that you're more gullible than those that believe in every conspiracy.

Besides, I don't know that the deep state is what I'd normally define as a conspiracy, but more like typical human behavior for the rich and powerful.

The DOGE identified 100,000 federal workers collecting unemployment insurance while employed. Do you support the arrest of all thieves and the demand for a refund?

A. Hell yes
B. No pic.twitter.com/UXj5D6rDGN

— Commentary Elon Musk (@ElonMuskNews47) July 20, 2025

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

---

There is no Deep State. You worked in the Government, they give it too much credit to be that organized. There are some very smart people, but to get them all marching on the same foot? It is more like a bunch of very smart prairie dogs with a hawk overhead. Constantly scampering for cover and self-survival.

In terms of the Fed employee, making sure that count down of days left reaches "0". THAT is the only thing a Fed cares about, not pushing some rich guys agenda. No Fed is risking their employment and march to retirement and Federal Benefits for some anti-ANYONE agenda. The countdown starts on Day 1 and ends 30 years later. That doesn't mean they don't do their job, just that their motivation IS NOT Political.

---

One of the dumbest posts. Of course there are the average Joe's working along. But when it comes to agendas and money, there is always people in roles that can enforce the will through the right people.
The Deep State exists, the existence of average Joe's doesn't change that. They're just the lemmings doing their job.

---

You keep believing in those conspiracies... Bannon needs your contributions and likes.

You keep believing that a secret society of powerful elites have hatched and embarked on a plan to launch a full-scale, global takeover. Mankind is counting on you to save the world. Do you have your decoder ring?

---

Conspiracies exist. Pretending that they don't is a sign that you're highly gullible. Likely shows that you're more gullible than those that believe in every conspiracy.

Besides, I don't know that the deep state is what I'd normally define as a conspiracy, but more like typical human behavior for the rich and powerful.

---

What you are missing is that there are different classes of workers in the Fed. The Appointees, the unclassified that work at the pleasure of the Admin and finally the Federal Workforce - civil service protected. The first 2 are political and fair game.

-Appointees are highly political. No doubt what you say happens at that level. They set the direction for the Agency and the UnderSec make sure it happens. But, they change with EVERY Administration.

- Unclassified the high level Manager they work for the UnderSec and can change with every Admin. I have seen some rise high under Trump and then leave under Biden. They rise and fall with Political agenda's but they are interchangable it is not hard to change them out. If one was not doing what the Admin wants, get rid of them.

The Fed Workforce, which is what DOGE is going after, they are civil servants and really have little say and there are so many it would be a greater achievement than Apollo to get them working together. Why they are going after that level, is beyond me besides they can't defend themselves...

Whiterock probably know the GS #s and levels better than me. I hate DC and only work with the Feds on specific stuff. But, there is no way the Fed is competent enough to be in a conspiracy.

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

---

There is no Deep State. You worked in the Government, they give it too much credit to be that organized. There are some very smart people, but to get them all marching on the same foot? It is more like a bunch of very smart prairie dogs with a hawk overhead. Constantly scampering for cover and self-survival.

In terms of the Fed employee, making sure that count down of days left reaches "0". THAT is the only thing a Fed cares about, not pushing some rich guys agenda. No Fed is risking their employment and march to retirement and Federal Benefits for some anti-ANYONE agenda. The countdown starts on Day 1 and ends 30 years later. That doesn't mean they don't do their job, just that their motivation IS NOT Political.

---

One of the dumbest posts. Of course there are the average Joe's working along. But when it comes to agendas and money, there is always people in roles that can enforce the will through the right people.
The Deep State exists, the existence of average Joe's doesn't change that. They're just the lemmings doing their job.

---

You keep believing in those conspiracies... Bannon needs your contributions and likes.

You keep believing that a secret society of powerful elites have hatched and embarked on a plan to launch a full-scale, global takeover. Mankind is counting on you to save the world. Do you have your decoder ring?

---

Conspiracies exist. Pretending that they don't is a sign that you're highly gullible. Likely shows that you're more gullible than those that believe in every conspiracy.

Besides, I don't know that the deep state is what I'd normally define as a conspiracy, but more like typical human behavior for the rich and powerful.

---

What you are missing is that there are different classes of workers in the Fed. The Appointees, the unclassified that work at the pleasure of the Admin and finally the Federal Workforce - civil service protected. The first 2 are political and fair game.

-Appointees are highly political. No doubt what you say happens at that level. They set the direction for the Agency and the UnderSec make sure it happens. But, they change with EVERY Administration.

- Unclassified the high level Manager they work for the UnderSec and can change with every Admin. I have seen some rise high under Trump and then leave under Biden. They rise and fall with Political agenda's but they are interchangable it is not hard to change them out. If one was not doing what the Admin wants, get rid of them.

The Fed Workforce, which is what DOGE is going after, they are civil servants and really have little say and there are so many it would be a greater achievement than Apollo to get them working together. Why they are going after that level, is beyond me besides they can't defend themselves...

Whiterock probably know the GS #s and levels better than me. I hate DC and only work with the Feds on specific stuff. But, there is no way the Fed is competent enough to be in a conspiracy.

---

LOL, the government isnt competent enough to have a conspiracy. The more silos, people who can't think think about an entire process, and the lack of competence makes it easier to push things through.

Dude, you just witnessed several massive conspiracies over the last eight years, on the scale that was previously unimaginable. Yet you don't think there are high level conspiracies. You think the media just happens to decide what narrative they will promote or cover up, all by happen stance.

You gonna be you.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

---

There is no Deep State. You worked in the Government, they give it too much credit to be that organized. There are some very smart people, but to get them all marching on the same foot? It is more like a bunch of very smart prairie dogs with a hawk overhead. Constantly scampering for cover and self-survival.

In terms of the Fed employee, making sure that count down of days left reaches "0". THAT is the only thing a Fed cares about, not pushing some rich guys agenda. No Fed is risking their employment and march to retirement and Federal Benefits for some anti-ANYONE agenda. The countdown starts on Day 1 and ends 30 years later. That doesn't mean they don't do their job, just that their motivation IS NOT Political.

---

One of the dumbest posts. Of course there are the average Joe's working along. But when it comes to agendas and money, there is always people in roles that can enforce the will through the right people.
The Deep State exists, the existence of average Joe's doesn't change that. They're just the lemmings doing their job.

---

You keep believing in those conspiracies... Bannon needs your contributions and likes.

You keep believing that a secret society of powerful elites have hatched and embarked on a plan to launch a full-scale, global takeover. Mankind is counting on you to save the world. Do you have your decoder ring?

---

Conspiracies exist. Pretending that they don't is a sign that you're highly gullible. Likely shows that you're more gullible than those that believe in every conspiracy.

Besides, I don't know that the deep state is what I'd normally define as a conspiracy, but more like typical human behavior for the rich and powerful.

---

What you are missing is that there are different classes of workers in the Fed. The Appointees, the unclassified that work at the pleasure of the Admin and finally the Federal Workforce - civil service protected. The first 2 are political and fair game.

-Appointees are highly political. No doubt what you say happens at that level. They set the direction for the Agency and the UnderSec make sure it happens. But, they change with EVERY Administration.

- Unclassified the high level Manager they work for the UnderSec and can change with every Admin. I have seen some rise high under Trump and then leave under Biden. They rise and fall with Political agenda's but they are interchangable it is not hard to change them out. If one was not doing what the Admin wants, get rid of them.

The Fed Workforce, which is what DOGE is going after, they are civil servants and really have little say and there are so many it would be a greater achievement than Apollo to get them working together. Why they are going after that level, is beyond me besides they can't defend themselves...

Whiterock probably know the GS #s and levels better than me. I hate DC and only work with the Feds on specific stuff. But, there is no way the Fed is competent enough to be in a conspiracy.

---

LOL, the government isnt competent enough to have a conspiracy. The more silos, people who can't think think about an entire process, and the lack of competence makes it easier to push things through.

Dude, you just witnessed several massive conspiracies over the last eight years, on the scale that was previously unimaginable. Yet you don't think there are high level conspiracies. You think the media just happens to decide what narrative they will promote or cover up, all by happen stance.

You gonna be you.

---

You are jumping around. You were defending the existence of a "Deep State" in the Federal Workforce to do the will of Democrats. So, DOGE is needed to get rid of the Deep State.

Whether or not a Hillary Clinton or a James Comey can influence their worlds IS NOT what DOGE is going after. Once again, they are the Political class. Yes, I agree they do conspiracies - both sides. All the time. This is not new that Political actors work to undermine each other it goes back further than Adams.

DOGE is getting rid of civil servants. I am telling you having worked with them, there is no Deep State working against anybody. They don't care, they want their retirement and then double dip later. That is what drives the Civil Servants, not whether Trump or Obama's policies are successful.

You are looking in the wrong place for your conspiracy, the ones behind them will NEVER answer for them. Hell, Trump had Hilary dead to rights and wouldn't prosecute. At that level, they are all buddies and conspire. Where DOGE is doing is just taking the retirement from some 60k tech...

Whether there is a deep state or not depends on the goal posts. Of course there are entrenched powerful people who get their way, out of the public eye.

And of course there is not a big massive conspiracy that involves a significant portion of the government, unless that conspiracy is to get rich at the taxpayer's expense, and that portion called Congress.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

---

There is no Deep State. You worked in the Government, they give it too much credit to be that organized. There are some very smart people, but to get them all marching on the same foot? It is more like a bunch of very smart prairie dogs with a hawk overhead. Constantly scampering for cover and self-survival.

In terms of the Fed employee, making sure that count down of days left reaches "0". THAT is the only thing a Fed cares about, not pushing some rich guys agenda. No Fed is risking their employment and march to retirement and Federal Benefits for some anti-ANYONE agenda. The countdown starts on Day 1 and ends 30 years later. That doesn't mean they don't do their job, just that their motivation IS NOT Political.

---

There is no well-developed, deeply entrenched "deep state" as in the case of Turkey, where the term comes from. But the nucleus of one is plainly in sight. Unlike the Turkish example, where the deep-state is an separate entity with its own agenda, we have a problem with a bureaucracy aligned with one of our two political parties. The problem is worst at the Senior Executive Service level. All of those players we see in the unfolding RussiaGate scandal are SES players, and all of them chose a side to play politics.

Hierarchies of merit tend over time to become hierarchies of power. The mere fact that we such broad and sustained institutional resistance to the agenda of a POTUS who won the popular vote is evidence we have a problem. In principle, it doesn't matter whether that resistance (their name, not mine) is allied left, right, or center. It matters that one is visible. When we see that, "reforms" are in order.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

---

There is no Deep State. You worked in the Government, they give it too much credit to be that organized. There are some very smart people, but to get them all marching on the same foot? It is more like a bunch of very smart prairie dogs with a hawk overhead. Constantly scampering for cover and self-survival.

In terms of the Fed employee, making sure that count down of days left reaches "0". THAT is the only thing a Fed cares about, not pushing some rich guys agenda. No Fed is risking their employment and march to retirement and Federal Benefits for some anti-ANYONE agenda. The countdown starts on Day 1 and ends 30 years later. That doesn't mean they don't do their job, just that their motivation IS NOT Political.

---

There is no well-developed, deeply entrenched "deep state" as in the case of Turkey, where the term comes from. But the nucleus of one is plainly in sight. Unlike the Turkish example, where the deep-state is an separate entity with its own agenda, we have a problem with a bureaucracy aligned with one of our two political parties. The problem is worst at the Senior Executive Service level. All of those players we see in the unfolding RussiaGate scandal are SES players, and all of them chose a side to play politics.

Hierarchies of merit tend over time to become hierarchies of power. The mere fact that we such broad and sustained institutional resistance to the agenda of a POTUS who won the popular vote is evidence we have a problem. In principle, it doesn't matter whether that resistance (their name, not mine) is allied left, right, or center. It matters that one is visible. When we see that, "reforms" are in order.

---

We agree on this. I do agree that the issue is SES, they do need to be replaced. But they typically come and go with Administration changes.

One thing I have noticed that may be playing into this issue is that we no longer get things done efficiently. In the 80's and 90's we hit deadlines better, these people would have been replaced by the new Administration. Now, we don't hit deadlines we do continuing resolutions and don't get people confirmed and use "Interims". I believe the issue is Congress and the rest of this is fallout from them NOT doing their job. From the Budget deficits, confirmations impasses, to not making laws letting the Courts run things.

I just fear that those that are getting targeted are the "cogs" that keep the US Government actually moving and really can't protect themselves.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

---

There is no Deep State. You worked in the Government, they give it too much credit to be that organized. There are some very smart people, but to get them all marching on the same foot? It is more like a bunch of very smart prairie dogs with a hawk overhead. Constantly scampering for cover and self-survival.

In terms of the Fed employee, making sure that count down of days left reaches "0". THAT is the only thing a Fed cares about, not pushing some rich guys agenda. No Fed is risking their employment and march to retirement and Federal Benefits for some anti-ANYONE agenda. The countdown starts on Day 1 and ends 30 years later. That doesn't mean they don't do their job, just that their motivation IS NOT Political.

---

There is no well-developed, deeply entrenched "deep state" as in the case of Turkey, where the term comes from. But the nucleus of one is plainly in sight. Unlike the Turkish example, where the deep-state is an separate entity with its own agenda, we have a problem with a bureaucracy aligned with one of our two political parties. The problem is worst at the Senior Executive Service level. All of those players we see in the unfolding RussiaGate scandal are SES players, and all of them chose a side to play politics.

Hierarchies of merit tend over time to become hierarchies of power. The mere fact that we such broad and sustained institutional resistance to the agenda of a POTUS who won the popular vote is evidence we have a problem. In principle, it doesn't matter whether that resistance (their name, not mine) is allied left, right, or center. It matters that one is visible. When we see that, "reforms" are in order.

---

We agree on this. I do agree that the issue is SES, they do need to be replaced. But they typically come and go with Administration changes.

One thing I have noticed that may be playing into this issue is that we no longer get things done efficiently. In the 80's and 90's we hit deadlines better, these people would have been replaced by the new Administration. Now, we don't hit deadlines we do continuing resolutions and don't get people confirmed and use "Interims". I believe the issue is Congress and the rest of this is fallout from them NOT doing their job. From the Budget deficits, confirmations impasses, to not making laws letting the Courts run things.

I just fear that those that are getting targeted are the "cogs" that keep the US Government actually moving and really can't protect themselves.

---

An awful lot of those cogs move to a new position every 2-3 years. How many times did I hear "nobody is irreplaceable." You serve for a while, then you move on & let someone else do it. If you're not doing that, you're not going to get promoted. You've got precepts for promotion. You have to punch certain tickets, certain types of assignments, to build a file that looks competitive. It tends to make you more conscientious. You know you will be handing off your portfolio, so don't hand off a mess or the good assignments will stop happening (and with them the opportunity to continue getting promoted.)

No chance that a RIF causes the civil service to collapse. The bigger concern is what we have now - a civil service that either identifies with the partisan agenda of one party, and relentlessly opposes the other. All we need is a couple of prison sentences. Pick the worst 2-3 of the lot and fry them to set an example. That is what you are seeing now with all the Gabbard releases. They're starting to set the stage to freeze their target.

Worst of the worst is John Brennan. Over and above his insufferable arrogance, his partisan abuse of the powers of his office did great harm to the institution. Comey is not far behind.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

---

There is no Deep State. You worked in the Government, they give it too much credit to be that organized. There are some very smart people, but to get them all marching on the same foot? It is more like a bunch of very smart prairie dogs with a hawk overhead. Constantly scampering for cover and self-survival.

In terms of the Fed employee, making sure that count down of days left reaches "0". THAT is the only thing a Fed cares about, not pushing some rich guys agenda. No Fed is risking their employment and march to retirement and Federal Benefits for some anti-ANYONE agenda. The countdown starts on Day 1 and ends 30 years later. That doesn't mean they don't do their job, just that their motivation IS NOT Political.

---

There is no well-developed, deeply entrenched "deep state" as in the case of Turkey, where the term comes from. But the nucleus of one is plainly in sight. Unlike the Turkish example, where the deep-state is an separate entity with its own agenda, we have a problem with a bureaucracy aligned with one of our two political parties. The problem is worst at the Senior Executive Service level. All of those players we see in the unfolding RussiaGate scandal are SES players, and all of them chose a side to play politics.

Hierarchies of merit tend over time to become hierarchies of power. The mere fact that we such broad and sustained institutional resistance to the agenda of a POTUS who won the popular vote is evidence we have a problem. In principle, it doesn't matter whether that resistance (their name, not mine) is allied left, right, or center. It matters that one is visible. When we see that, "reforms" are in order.

---

We agree on this. I do agree that the issue is SES, they do need to be replaced. But they typically come and go with Administration changes.

One thing I have noticed that may be playing into this issue is that we no longer get things done efficiently. In the 80's and 90's we hit deadlines better, these people would have been replaced by the new Administration. Now, we don't hit deadlines we do continuing resolutions and don't get people confirmed and use "Interims". I believe the issue is Congress and the rest of this is fallout from them NOT doing their job. From the Budget deficits, confirmations impasses, to not making laws letting the Courts run things.

I just fear that those that are getting targeted are the "cogs" that keep the US Government actually moving and really can't protect themselves.

---

An awful lot of those cogs move to a new position every 2-3 years. How many times did I hear "nobody is irreplaceable." You serve for a while, then you move on & let someone else do it. If you're not doing that, you're not going to get promoted. You've got precepts for promotion. You have to punch certain tickets, certain types of assignments, to build a file that looks competitive. It tends to make you more conscientious. You know you will be handing off your portfolio, so don't hand off a mess or the good assignments will stop happening (and with them the opportunity to continue getting promoted.)

No chance that a RIF causes the civil service to collapse. The bigger concern is what we have now - a civil service that either identifies with the partisan agenda of one party, and relentlessly opposes the other. All we need is a couple of prison sentences. Pick the worst 2-3 of the lot and fry them to set an example. That is what you are seeing now with all the Gabbard releases. They're starting to set the stage to freeze their target.

Worst of the worst is John Brennan. Over and above his insufferable arrogance, his partisan abuse of the powers of his office did great harm to the institution. Comey is not far behind.

---

We agree on most things, the issue I have is that you put the on-the-line Federal worker in the same silo as John Brennan! He is NOT a civil servant level employee like most, he made the jump to political appointee. The number that can do that is not high. I do agree that those are the ones causing the "political advocate" issues, for both sides.

Many are saying Gabbard is not much different. Calling her report and use of "Deep State" amateurish... Thought of you when I read that and your opinion. : )

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Some would holler about a 9 billion dollar cut in the defense budget, or homeland security or FEMA or from an infrastructure bill, etc. As long as it affects those who aren't us just cut away. There's more American ways to do this, and if we would put Americans first then there might not be such political alienation and polarization.
However that takes something we no longer have as a nation

---

What would an "American" way to do it look like? How would you propose we balance the budget?

The reality is only about 10% of dollars sent to D.C. actually return to the people, so there is really no one other than bureaucrats affected by the reduction. The only reason there is so-called "polarization" is because the left built a large, taxpayer-funded infrastructure to fuel its retaining and gaining power. That is why there is so much screaming - its losing some of its money train it used to fund its power.

---

Brookings has a very good article on the size of Government.

Is government too big? Reflections on the size and composition of today's federal government | Brookings


Bottomline, no matter what era you pick the size of the Federal Govt on Jan 19, 2025 was in proportion to the US population in other eras of US history. If we want to shrink it, attrition would do just fine. No need for the theatrics. The Government is NOT as big as you think for a 365 million person population in a more technical world.

I have no problem reducing costs, but them services and infrastructure is going to suffer. Based on Trump's budget Defense is not getting cut, it is growing (as is total spending). Question is do you want your money going to provide for the things the Fed does or do you want the States to do it? You are paying in either Income, State Income, or Sales tax because the cost of Government is NOT going down.

---

theatrics are part of politics. If you aren't engaging in them, you aren't doing it right. And Trump has done a spectacular job with Doge. It's a friggin' brand. Cutting government waste/fraud, once a meaningless talking point bout minutia no one cared much about, is now a brand. You say the word, and everyone knows what you are talking about. No one is saying Trump is just paying lip service to cutting waste and fraud. He's provoked such rhetorical hyperbole that he MUST be doing something, cutting deep enough to hurt....right?

In that regard, the harder neverTrumpers fight against Doge, the more they are positioned to be defending waste, fraud, abuse, unnecessary spending, etc....

---

Geez, you are going further and further into that kool-aid...

That "brand" is messing with ALOT of people's lives. People that had nothing to do with "insulting" Donald. The people marketing the "brand" will not be touched by their actions. Elon will be a billionaire. Donald will be a millionaire, pretending to be a billionaire. Thought the CIA couldn't operate domestically... This reads like a bad 1970's CIA novel.

---

LOL again we see the irony of neverTrump critique. Who's being conspiratorial? Republicans, who see very clearly a bureaucracy operating as a 5th column operating to the benefit of its political opponents, or neverTrumpers trying to make the Orange man out to be a dictator?

My last post was not a political not fiscal observation. Trump has managed to make government inefficiency something of interest to voters. Every POTUS has paid lip service to that. And Presidents on both sides of the aisle have engaged in budget cutting and bureaucracy downsizing. Trump has done a better job of messaging than any of them. I mean, when has government inefficiency NOT been a source of ongoing humor and ridicule? And yes, he did/does have a "deep state" to deal with, a bureaucracy full of entrenched ideological opposition to not just his presidency but the entire GOP platform. Cleaning out all that rot is a good thing. The bureaucracy should be equally responsive (or not) to either side of the political divide, not a wholly owned subsidiary of one side.

If there is going to be a deep state, it better damned well be some shade of red. If Democrats don't want it to become so, they should be very careful not to try turn it blue again.

---

There is no Deep State. You worked in the Government, they give it too much credit to be that organized. There are some very smart people, but to get them all marching on the same foot? It is more like a bunch of very smart prairie dogs with a hawk overhead. Constantly scampering for cover and self-survival.

In terms of the Fed employee, making sure that count down of days left reaches "0". THAT is the only thing a Fed cares about, not pushing some rich guys agenda. No Fed is risking their employment and march to retirement and Federal Benefits for some anti-ANYONE agenda. The countdown starts on Day 1 and ends 30 years later. That doesn't mean they don't do their job, just that their motivation IS NOT Political.

---

There is no well-developed, deeply entrenched "deep state" as in the case of Turkey, where the term comes from. But the nucleus of one is plainly in sight. Unlike the Turkish example, where the deep-state is an separate entity with its own agenda, we have a problem with a bureaucracy aligned with one of our two political parties. The problem is worst at the Senior Executive Service level. All of those players we see in the unfolding RussiaGate scandal are SES players, and all of them chose a side to play politics.

Hierarchies of merit tend over time to become hierarchies of power. The mere fact that we such broad and sustained institutional resistance to the agenda of a POTUS who won the popular vote is evidence we have a problem. In principle, it doesn't matter whether that resistance (their name, not mine) is allied left, right, or center. It matters that one is visible. When we see that, "reforms" are in order.

---

We agree on this. I do agree that the issue is SES, they do need to be replaced. But they typically come and go with Administration changes.

One thing I have noticed that may be playing into this issue is that we no longer get things done efficiently. In the 80's and 90's we hit deadlines better, these people would have been replaced by the new Administration. Now, we don't hit deadlines we do continuing resolutions and don't get people confirmed and use "Interims". I believe the issue is Congress and the rest of this is fallout from them NOT doing their job. From the Budget deficits, confirmations impasses, to not making laws letting the Courts run things.

I just fear that those that are getting targeted are the "cogs" that keep the US Government actually moving and really can't protect themselves.

---

An awful lot of those cogs move to a new position every 2-3 years. How many times did I hear "nobody is irreplaceable." You serve for a while, then you move on & let someone else do it. If you're not doing that, you're not going to get promoted. You've got precepts for promotion. You have to punch certain tickets, certain types of assignments, to build a file that looks competitive. It tends to make you more conscientious. You know you will be handing off your portfolio, so don't hand off a mess or the good assignments will stop happening (and with them the opportunity to continue getting promoted.)

No chance that a RIF causes the civil service to collapse. The bigger concern is what we have now - a civil service that either identifies with the partisan agenda of one party, and relentlessly opposes the other. All we need is a couple of prison sentences. Pick the worst 2-3 of the lot and fry them to set an example. That is what you are seeing now with all the Gabbard releases. They're starting to set the stage to freeze their target.

Worst of the worst is John Brennan. Over and above his insufferable arrogance, his partisan abuse of the powers of his office did great harm to the institution. Comey is not far behind.

---

We agree on most things, the issue I have is that you put the on-the-line Federal worker in the same silo as John Brennan! He is NOT a civil servant level employee like most, he made the jump to political appointee. The number that can do that is not high. I do agree that those are the ones causing the "political advocate" issues, for both sides.

Many are saying Gabbard is not much different. Calling her report and use of "Deep State" amateurish... Thought of you when I read that and your opinion. : )

---

the problem with the on-the-line Federal worker is that there are too many of them doing too many things.

Long-time hunting buddy going back to frat bro at BU is a cardiologist. when Obamacare heated up, with all it's ostensible focus on saving everyone money, I asked him a simple question "so what do we have to do to spend less healthcare?" His response: "practice less medicine."

You can only save marginal amounts of money doing something better. To really transform the budget, you have to simply quit doing some functions altogether. It's why we demobilize armies at the ends of wars. The tanks and fighter jets and aircraft carriers are already paid for. To biggest pot of money to save is payroll on so many soldiers. Ergo, entire divisions go away with strokes of the pen. We see Trump taking that approach. USAID? gone. Dept of Education needs to go. Green new deal regulatory jobs need to go. And on and on. And one will face enormous resistance from entrenched interests in doing so. Ergo one must engage in hyperbole to move public support. So there's nothing new about what Trump is doing by savaging some of these agencies. It's part of the process to get the public behind the program.

Fraud, waste, and abuse is not a threat to democracy. It's there in any organization. It's worse in government because there's no private sector competitive forces working to keep it in check. Nothing ever dies in government. It just builds and builds and builds. The threat to democracy is when individual use sovereign power to entrench partisan interests. The rank & file guys can't do that. It's the SES types, Brennan, et al who did that.

Nothing would be more restorative than John Brennan getting a perp walk. Even if he beats the rap, he needs to be subjected to the same thing Trump was - "the process is the punishment." It's the only way to restore the balanced detente that our two-party system depends upon. Democrats CLEARLY forgot the old sniper's adage "line of sight is reciprocal." If you can see your enemy, your enemy can see you. There's a political corollary - "whatever you do to your political opponents while you're in power, your political opponents can do to you while they're in power." Democrats need to get a few fingers & toes smashed beyond repair to re-learn the lesson. Seeing Democrats ignore that plain reality was was the scariest thing about what they did with all the prosecutions of Trump - it was like they were planning to never lose an election again. They thought they had wired the system to prevent that from ever happening.