Doc Holliday said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Doc Holliday said:
Reminder: Salvation and faith are not a one-time event; they are a lifelong journey.
Faithfulness to God is like fidelity in a marriage, it requires daily commitment. Salvation isn't a simple "true or false" question.
Our behavior matters, and we never lose our free will. Ultimately, salvation means saying "yes" to grace, which requires our active cooperation and personal effort. This isn't to say that works save us. Rather, works are a reflection of a transformed heart and Christ working within us. But even that requires a willingness on our part to actively cooperate with God's grace.
Yeah that sounds a lot harder than the current hyper assurance model of salvation. I get it. But this is Christ we're talking about. This is a marriage. You are told that it's the narrow path, that is EXTREMELY difficult to follow Christ, to pick p your cross, that you will be hated and despised.
Here is the key text (from John 15:2 and 15:6):Quote:
"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit... If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
You cannot be cut away from a vine you were never attached to. You cannot wither if you were never drawing sap from the root. Jesus is speaking directly to the disciples, to people who are genuinely, currently "in Him." This shatters the idea that salvation is just a passive, automated safety net. A branch doesn't stay alive simply because it had a good attachment point on day one; it stays alive by abiding, by continuously drawing life, cooperating with the vine, and producing fruit: all dependent on your willpower, cooperation and saying "yes" to grace. You're not totally depraved to the point where you can't do this.
Salvation IS like a marriage. But you got the analogy all wrong.
Marriage IS a one-time event. From that point you are married until death do you part. Your marriage is not contingent upon the merit or performance of your spouse. Marriage is NOT where the wife/husband can never really be sure their whole life if they're doing well enough to be your spouse, and so they worry and they fear. That may be the way our society today does marriage, but it's not God's way - "what God has joined, let no man separate". There is no real union if there is no assurance in marriage, and without assurance there is no peace.
Salvation is also like adoption (Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:4-5). When we believe, we are adopted as sons/daughters into God's family. If you sign the papers to adopt a child - the adoption is a one-time event. That child is now your son/daughter for life, no matter their merit or performance. Their sonship/daughtership is NOT contingent upon whether they "cooperated" enough with you. Imagine how your adopted child would feel if they never can be safe and secure that they'll always have you as a parent, because they might not "cooperate" well enough. Which one of us would want that child to KNOW that you love them as your own, and that they are you son/daughter forever, and to be 100% secure and never doubt? Who here, rather, would tell their adopted child that if they they're not measuring up to your standards, that they're not your child anymore? Anyone? Raise your hand.
Well, if you wouldn't do that, certainly God wouldn't. He wants to give his children complete assurance: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."
When you believe, you are saved and SEALED by the Holy Spirit as a GUARANTEE for salvation:
"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." - Ephesians 1:11-14
Jesus said God's will is that he should lose NONE that are given to Jesus (John 6:39)
In the Roman Catholic and Orthodox systems, you are the wife who lives in constant fear that your husband will end your marriage and leave you without a husband. You are the adopted child who is always in fear that your adoptive parents will reject you and you will be an orphan again. Because it was you who failed to keep them happy. But God says you are joined to Jesus by your faith, and you belong to him forever. And he says "let man not separate" what he has joined. But this is exactly what RC and Orthodoxy try to do - by inserting their institutions and man-made rules in between you and Jesus, placing obstacles in between you just like how the Pharisees did, and declaring they have the authority to separate you from Jesus if you don't follow them. Open your eyes and see how false this is. Keep your eyes on Jesus and what HE did on the cross and on HIS righteousness that he freely imputes to you, which you receive by faith alone, rather than on your own ability to be righteous. You have free will - the free will to obey God and do good works, simply because you love God and want to please him, and you love others as yourself. Not because you're afraid you'll be punished with loss of salvation. The former is what real sons do. The latter is what slaves do.
"For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" - Romans 8:15
Marriage being a one-time event with zero ongoing contingency… I guess you can cheat on your wife and it doesn't actually count as anything since the bond can't be touched either way? Malachi literally calls covenant unfaithfulness a betrayal of the marriage bond, and the entire book of Hosea only exists because a covenant spouse CAN cheat on the covenant. Kind of an important detail to skip. "Let no man separate" is about outside parties breaking up a marriage, not about whether a spouse can bail from the inside through their own unfaithfulness. Run the marriage analogy through the whole Bible instead of just Matthew 19 and it already looks exactly like what I said: real fidelity required, real betrayal possible, real restoration offered. Didn't import that. The prophets did.
Same issue with adoption. Romans 8 calls us adopted sons, sure, but it's also the same chapter that says we're heirs IF we suffer with him, present tense, ongoing. Paul didn't forget he wrote John 15 by the time he got to Romans 8. You don't get to keep the metaphor that flatters your system and drop the one that doesn't. Both are his. Both stay.
Ephesians 1 and the seal, I'll take that one head on. A down payment guarantees the guy paying WILL follow through, that's God being faithful to His own promise. But "God's faithful to His side" and "your participation doesn't matter and is automatic" are not the same sentence. The verse gets you the first one. It never said the second.
John 6:39, none lost that are given to the Son, totally fine, doesn't dent my view at all. Tells you God's intent toward those given. Doesn't tell you who counts as given, or whether sticking with Him is how that giving plays out. You're sneaking in an assumption.
Your version, where nothing can ever count as betrayal because the bond is bulletproof no matter what you do, that's the version that makes love meaningless, not mine. Being afraid to hurt someone you love isn't slave fear. That's just love that actually means something.
Your Old Testament examples only serve to further the analogy between the one-time event of marriage and salvation. Certainly the actions of a spouse can profane the marriage covenant - but by law and in God's eyes, they are still married. They remain married unless the husband divorces his wife. But in Malachi, that is exactly what God is angry about. He was angry that the Israelite men were divorcing their wives in order to be with foreign women. God was telling them NOT to divorce, but to remain with their wives. Likewise, in Hosea, God not only told Hosea NOT to divorce his unfaithful wife, but to actually buy her back from those who took her, and keep her as his wife, despite her treacherous infidelity. These two are perfect examples of God viewing marriage as a covenant union which is not to be broken despite the failings of the spouses.
In Romans 8, Paul is NOT saying that we are required to suffer with Jesus in order to be adopted sons. That's a misreading. In verse 14, he clearly and explicitly states that we are sons if we are led by the Spirit of God (v. 14). He is not saying our sonship is contingent upon our suffering with Jesus. He is saying, rather, that AS sons already, what's contingent upon our suffering with Jesus is our heirship to the same glorification of Jesus, NOT our sonship. Translating that into our real-world example, as an adopted son, you are always a member of the family and a son to your adoptive father no matter what - however, you may be required to demonstrate merit in your life for your father to leave you a big part of his estate in his will. This is salvation vs. rewards.
In your Ephesians 1:13 rebuttal, you still have a situation where the "down payment" is a GUARANTEE. Meaning that no, this guarantee is NOT affected by anything you do on your part. No one is saying that what you do on your part "doesn't matter" or is "meaningless", though. "Meaningless/doesn't matter" and "required for salvation" are NOT the same thing. You're attempting a straw man. Yes, you can affect the rewards you're given (see above) as a result of what you do on your part, so it's not meaningless and it definitely does matter - but as far as what God has promised as a GUARANTEE, you can't affect that. You're trying your best (clumsily) to argue away God's guarantee, but you just can't.
John 6:39 DOES deny your view, if your view is that someone can be a true believer, but lose their salvation.
Scripture elsewhere tells us that ALL who are called to become true believers are not ever lost, but all are destined to completion towards glorification:
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." - Romans 8:29-30
Your last paragraph just completely misses the whole point about sons vs slaves and is also a complete straw man. My argument has NEVER been that "nothing can ever count as betrayal". Never did I say that the bond is "bulletproof" to where one's actions won't hurt the relationship, either. As adopted sons of God through Jesus, yes, we CAN hurt our relationship with our Father by our actions (and inactions). But our sonship is not lost, if we are true sons. If we are slaves, however, then we would have something to fear in terms of losing our position. As true sons, we do good in order to please God because we love him, not out of fear we might lose something. That doesn't make love "meaningless" at all, that makes love exactly the kind of love that God truly wants - our freely given love. Not a love that is given out of fear.
Tell me right now - would you adopt a son, and tell him that if doesn't measure up (he must "cooperate" well enough), you will rescind your adoption and he will be an orphan again?
