FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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If Mary didnt give birth to Jesus, who is God, to whom did she give birth?

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Matthew 12:46-50

"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

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John 19:26-27

26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." 27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother."

We can and have been doing this for 1000 years. We will not agree.

You keep running to a man interpreted book, which there is NO scripture supporting that the version you read is the correct one. I guess Luther tradition is ok, but that is another discussion. But, regardless you think we are doomed for idiology.

From our point of view, you have fallen away from the true Church and fell for Satan's trap of believing that you as a Man can determine what is "true" and what isn't. I feel bad for you guys.

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The irony here is you don't even accept Paul's letters as canon. Kind of ironic to accuse people of falling away from the "true Church," as you call it, when you don't even accept your true Church's teachings.

Bottom line is there is nothing in either the Protestant Bible, or the Catholic Bible, that states, much less suggests, that Mary should be honored and prayed to. You have to lie on your Church's evolving and sometimes contradictory doctrine to reach that conclusion.

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After 1000 years you guys still dont get it. We do not agree with Sola Scriptura. A word for word reconciliation will not be there. If that is your only criteria, you will not find it. You will find Biblical passages that support Church Tradition, but not a cool book recipe from Christ.

The Bible was compiled 400 years after Christ and 1500 years have occurred after its compilation. So, how do you address everything before the Bible and everything after that is not included. There has been no revelation from God since the Apostles? And Augustine and the Church Fathers before are not to be listened to if it didn't make Jerome's and then Luther's cut?

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Again, it's not just sola scriptura you disagree with, but your own church's position on scripture. Again, you don't even believe Paul's letters are canon.

I mean, when you trust the infallible word of man over God's holy scriptures, there really isn't much to discuss. Your position is completely illogical.

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I said I don't like Paul or his letters.

Do you think about anything in scriptures other than just take at face value because it is the Bible? Do you apply any logic, thought, wonder of the interactions of the actual people and how it impacted what we have today?

Honest question, do you believe that the Apostles (including Paul) and the Church Fathers (including the Protestants) humanity had anything to do with the actual products we see today? Or, were they robots programmed to follow the computer cards inserted by the Holy Spirit?

What is the Holy Spirit's influence? Was it literal, the Bible being put together by a Court Reporter taking transcrption from the Holy Spirit? Or, was the Holy Spirit to ensure the overarching message survived 2000 years into the future and the particulars are not as important?

Just how literal are the "Scriptures" that have not been added to in 1700 years? Does that make sense? It all stopped with the Apostles? Do you guys really think God wants us to just stand pat for 1700 years?

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It's hard to know where to begin with these posts. On the one hand, you attack the veracity and authenticity of scripture. On the other hand, you claim we should accept the doctrine of the church fathers from more than a 1,000 years ago.

I am not sure how to reconcile that strange dichotomy.

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It was an honest question. You guys keep saying Sola Scriptura, everything is based on the Bible. Well, the Bible has not changed in 1700 years. There are no new books being written, no new Apostles coming forward. So, nothing has happened in the world that requires we adjust? We are to look at the world and how we live our lives as they did in Paul's times?

You guys question Church Tradition, the scripture is one part of the equation (even Paul, as much as I think he is a dick), but the Church is the other part that responds to the earthly environment. The Church looks for God's and the Holy Spirit's influence in the world and incorporates it into practice. Church Tradition is how the Roman Catholic Church addresses the last 1700 years...

So, what servant are you and your faith? Do you bury the talents and only do what the Master and Apostles did 2000 years ago? Or are you the 5 talent one, the Church at least tries to be the 5 talent servant. That is how I look at it. But, I also believe the human, flawed view, is still part of God's creation and the Holy Spirit still works in man. We may not get it right all the time, but their is value in trying. I know my efforts are viewed by God as Dirty Rags. (Geez, someone had an insecurity issue...)

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So, Paul is a dick, and the scriptures may neither be authentic or accurate, but we should rely on Church tradition and trust it's accuracy just because?

Again, I am just not sure how to respond to this. But yes, I do trust the accuracy of the Holy Scriptures over Church tradition. It is the inspired word of God, IMO. I get it, you are not convinced. We will agree to disagree with that, and I guess, you will disagree with your own Church on that point. But I would submit the idea that we can trust 1000 year old man-made Church doctrine, but not the Holy Scriptures, just makes no sense whatsoever to me.

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Who said "not the Holy Scriptures"? Everything Catholics have said is Scriptures and Tradition. You asked why we would believe in Tradition, I told you life goes on and we believe that Holy Spirit and God are active today just like then. The Scriptures have not changed since John wrote Revelations. Best analogy I have is that Scripture is the road map and Tradition is the practice (at least how I look at it as a Catholic, but I also think about this stuff and don't just rely on some Pastor to tell me).

I just think Paul is a dick, that is not a Church position. He was either telling us what to do or asking for money. Acquinas loved him. I don't. But the Lord works in mysterious ways. Not my call...

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It's the "traditions" not included in scripture, and contradictory to the Holy Scriptures that are the issue in this thread. But again, we can agree to disagree.

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I get that. You are 100% right, that has been the problem since Luther. I don't know that we will solve it or come to agreement. I am telling you where my head is when I attend Mass or read a Vatican letter comes out. I am telling you as a Catholic, the Hail Mary is literally from Scripture and not worshipping. Basically, where average Catholics are. Just like anywhere else there are those that are on the fringe, the outside 10% on any given subject that I don't agree with.

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The problem with the position that the Hail Mary "is literally from Scripture" is that this is just an objectively untrue statement. There are other examples in the Catholic faith, but the Hail Mary is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, nor even suggested.

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Here you go... It is used in the Rosary as a meditation, all Scripture based. I know you don't agree, but this is the explanation.

The Hail Mary In the Bible:

Introduction - To begin, here is the text of the Hail Mary prayer:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

The Hail Mary has two sections: a greeting and a petition. Both are rooted in New Testament passages. Within each section, we can break down the text into two parts, which gives us four total sections of the prayer to reflect on.

Part 1
Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.
Scriptural reference: "And coming to her, he said, 'Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.'" (Luke 1:28)

Part 2
Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus.
Scriptural reference: "Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said 'Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.'" (Luke 1:42)

Part 3
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Scriptural reference: "How does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

Part 4
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Scriptural reference: "Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful." (James 5:16)

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historian said:

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4th and Inches said:

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historian said:

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The context in Matthew is very clear that it is his family that are mentioned.

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55 Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. 56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph,[f] and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

The Burial of Jesus

57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59 Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.

In context she not referred to as the mother of Jesus in Matthew. I highly doubt the mother of Jesus would be referred to as the other Mary..

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Wrong chapter. The reference was from Matthew 12, not 27.

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BUDOS said:

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Oldbear,
Yes we do. The briefly stated points about the our beliefs are stated on our website at cccmonett.org.

As a small nondenominational Christian church we have no formal national organization telling us what we can cannot do. We are led by a group of elders who are voted on by the congregation. After Covid we almost folded; however, we have slowly grown since.

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Fre3dombear said:

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Happy Solemnity of Saint Mary, Mother of God to all who celebrate.

What a beautiful homily

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4th and Inches said:

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historian said:

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4th and Inches said:

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historian said:

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The context in Matthew is very clear that it is his family that are mentioned.

---

55 Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. 56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph,[f] and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

The Burial of Jesus

57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59 Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.

In context she not referred to as the mother of Jesus in Matthew. I highly doubt the mother of Jesus would be referred to as the other Mary..

---

Wrong chapter. The reference was from Matthew 12, not 27.

---

Jesus' Mother and Brothers

Matthew 12: 46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

This one?

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Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Happy Solemnity of Saint Mary, Mother of God to all who celebrate.

What a beautiful homily

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As a saint, the Theotokos is venerated. Respected. As you would your earthly parents. As you would other giants in the faith. Worship is reserved for God. If you're giving the Theotokos the same level of honor as God, you've fallen into idolatry.

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Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Happy Solemnity of Saint Mary, Mother of God to all who celebrate.

What a beautiful homily

---

As a saint, the Theotokos is venerated. Respected. As you would your earthly parents. As you would other giants in the faith. Worship is reserved for God. If you're giving the Theotokos the same level of honor as God, you've fallen into idolatry.

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Fre3dombear said:

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4th and Inches said:

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historian said:

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4th and Inches said:

---

historian said:

---

The context in Matthew is very clear that it is his family that are mentioned.

---

55 Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. 56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph,[f] and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

The Burial of Jesus

57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59 Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.

In context she not referred to as the mother of Jesus in Matthew. I highly doubt the mother of Jesus would be referred to as the other Mary..

---

Wrong chapter. The reference was from Matthew 12, not 27.

---

Jesus' Mother and Brothers

Matthew 12: 46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

This one?

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Misinterpreted confused an entite religion

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ShooterTX said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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4th and Inches said:

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historian said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

historian said:

---

The context in Matthew is very clear that it is his family that are mentioned.

---

55 Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. 56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph,[f] and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

The Burial of Jesus

57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59 Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.

In context she not referred to as the mother of Jesus in Matthew. I highly doubt the mother of Jesus would be referred to as the other Mary..

---

Wrong chapter. The reference was from Matthew 12, not 27.

---

Jesus' Mother and Brothers

Matthew 12: 46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

This one?

---

Misinterpreted confused an entite religion

---

It's amazing how you make these claims.
You somehow believe all these miraculous claims about Mary, but then expect us to accept that none of the Apostles of writers of the NT were aware?
Our perhaps they were all aware and they all engaged in Mary worship, but they just forgot to tell anyone about her sinless nature of that her other children were not actually hers or that she never had sex with her husband or that she is the dispenser of grace & blessings??? That's a real stretch.
Somehow they also knew & believed in purgatory and yet they never mentioned such a place or the need to help others get out of it. It's amazing that Catholics actually think that these practices are the original ways of the church, even though they are never mentioned or taught by any of the people who knew Christ personally.

Jesus talked about the kingdom of God alot. He also talked about Hell. He never once mentioned a place similar to purgatory.
Jesus talked about Abraham, Moses, and others, but never once talked about his miraculous mother who was the first person ever to be born without sin and to live a perfect & sinless life.

Pretty crazy to believe that all of these super important parts of RC "Christianity" were completely forgotten by all of the New Testament writers. I guess the Holy Spirit forgot to remind them about it?

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Fre3dombear said:

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Has it ever occurred to the protestants here that the way they talk about Mary would suggest very logically that they would have to admit it is possible that Mary , an every day run of the mill woman they claim, who happen to be chosen to birth God incarnate, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, may not even be in heaven

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ShooterTX said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

historian said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

historian said:

---

The context in Matthew is very clear that it is his family that are mentioned.

---

55 Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. 56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph,[f] and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

The Burial of Jesus

57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59 Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.

In context she not referred to as the mother of Jesus in Matthew. I highly doubt the mother of Jesus would be referred to as the other Mary..

---

Wrong chapter. The reference was from Matthew 12, not 27.

---

Jesus' Mother and Brothers

Matthew 12: 46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

This one?

---

Misinterpreted confused an entite religion

---

It's amazing how you make these claims.
You somehow believe all these miraculous claims about Mary, but then expect us to accept that none of the Apostles of writers of the NT were aware?
Our perhaps they were all aware and they all engaged in Mary worship, but they just forgot to tell anyone about her sinless nature of that her other children were not actually hers or that she never had sex with her husband or that she is the dispenser of grace & blessings??? That's a real stretch.
Somehow they also knew & believed in purgatory and yet they never mentioned such a place or the need to help others get out of it. It's amazing that Catholics actually think that these practices are the original ways of the church, even though they are never mentioned or taught by any of the people who knew Christ personally.

Jesus talked about the kingdom of God alot. He also talked about Hell. He never once mentioned a place similar to purgatory.
Jesus talked about Abraham, Moses, and others, but never once talked about his miraculous mother who was the first person ever to be born without sin and to live a perfect & sinless life.

Pretty crazy to believe that all of these super important parts of RC "Christianity" were completely forgotten by all of the New Testament writers. I guess the Holy Spirit forgot to remind them about it?

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

historian said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

historian said:

---

The context in Matthew is very clear that it is his family that are mentioned.

---

55 Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. 56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph,[f] and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

The Burial of Jesus

57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59 Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.

In context she not referred to as the mother of Jesus in Matthew. I highly doubt the mother of Jesus would be referred to as the other Mary..

---

Wrong chapter. The reference was from Matthew 12, not 27.

---

Jesus' Mother and Brothers

Matthew 12: 46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

This one?

---

Misinterpreted confused an entite religion

---

It's amazing how you make these claims.
You somehow believe all these miraculous claims about Mary, but then expect us to accept that none of the Apostles of writers of the NT were aware?
Our perhaps they were all aware and they all engaged in Mary worship, but they just forgot to tell anyone about her sinless nature of that her other children were not actually hers or that she never had sex with her husband or that she is the dispenser of grace & blessings??? That's a real stretch.
Somehow they also knew & believed in purgatory and yet they never mentioned such a place or the need to help others get out of it. It's amazing that Catholics actually think that these practices are the original ways of the church, even though they are never mentioned or taught by any of the people who knew Christ personally.

Jesus talked about the kingdom of God alot. He also talked about Hell. He never once mentioned a place similar to purgatory.
Jesus talked about Abraham, Moses, and others, but never once talked about his miraculous mother who was the first person ever to be born without sin and to live a perfect & sinless life.

Pretty crazy to believe that all of these super important parts of RC "Christianity" were completely forgotten by all of the New Testament writers. I guess the Holy Spirit forgot to remind them about it?

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Jesus mentioned 3 places. One of them only once, to the thief in the cross. That is fascinating to anyone with the objectivity to ponder it.

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Oldbear83 said:

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' book chapter and verse posted"

Odd, the references I have seen from you do not support your claims.

Maybe you could post them again if you have some which do say what you claim.

Shouldn't be hard, and frankly it's your job to support your claims, not expect someone else to prove your claims.

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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' book chapter and verse posted"

Odd, the references I have seen from you do not support your claims.

Maybe you could post them again if you have some which do say what you claim.

Shouldn't be hard, and frankly it's your job to support your claims, not expect someone else to prove your claims.

---

Sure. Many are here in this thread. A simple search will reveal.

Off the top of my head posts on the hail mary being biblical, purgatory, mortal and venial sins, no reference to sola scriptura, how faith and works work together, no faith alone, confession, baptism, praying for the dead , prayers to saints as intercession, mary as intercessor, mary as queen, transubstanciation, Catholic belief of being saved by grace, etc

All have been posted

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Oldbear83 said:

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Nope, you keep claiming they are there.

Have to conclude you can't produce them.

As I said, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, not something you can dump on others.

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ShooterTX said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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' book chapter and verse posted"

Odd, the references I have seen from you do not support your claims.

Maybe you could post them again if you have some which do say what you claim.

Shouldn't be hard, and frankly it's your job to support your claims, not expect someone else to prove your claims.

---

Sure. Many are here in this thread. A simple search will reveal.

Off the top of my head posts on the hail mary being biblical, purgatory, mortal and venial sins, no reference to sola scriptura, how faith and works work together, no faith alone, confession, baptism, praying for the dead , prayers to saints as intercession, mary as intercessor, mary as queen, transubstanciation, Catholic belief of being saved by grace, etc

All have been posted

---

There is no biblical reference to Mary as anything other than the mother of Jesus.
She is never referred to as a queen, mediator, dispenser of grace, or anything else that the RC claim.
Even the RC admit that all of the idolatry of Mary comes from the "traditions"and not from scripture.

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Nope, you keep claiming they are there.

Have to conclude you can't produce them.

As I said, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, not something you can dump on others.

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Yes that burden has been met countless times. All there for anyone to see. Even much of it in this 10 page thread

You want it spoon fed again for the slow or lazy?

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Fre3dombear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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' book chapter and verse posted"

Odd, the references I have seen from you do not support your claims.

Maybe you could post them again if you have some which do say what you claim.

Shouldn't be hard, and frankly it's your job to support your claims, not expect someone else to prove your claims.

---

Sure. Many are here in this thread. A simple search will reveal.

Off the top of my head posts on the hail mary being biblical, purgatory, mortal and venial sins, no reference to sola scriptura, how faith and works work together, no faith alone, confession, baptism, praying for the dead , prayers to saints as intercession, mary as intercessor, mary as queen, transubstanciation, Catholic belief of being saved by grace, etc

All have been posted

---

There is no biblical reference to Mary as anything other than the mother of Jesus.
She is never referred to as a queen, mediator, dispenser of grace, or anything else that the RC claim.
Even the RC admit that all of the idolatry of Mary comes from the "traditions"and not from scripture.

---

Ummmm Revelations 12:1. Already cited in this thread and others

Ccc 966 addresses this for Catholics as an output from the Magisterium

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

' book chapter and verse posted"

Odd, the references I have seen from you do not support your claims.

Maybe you could post them again if you have some which do say what you claim.

Shouldn't be hard, and frankly it's your job to support your claims, not expect someone else to prove your claims.

---

Sure. Many are here in this thread. A simple search will reveal.

Off the top of my head posts on the hail mary being biblical, purgatory, mortal and venial sins, no reference to sola scriptura, how faith and works work together, no faith alone, confession, baptism, praying for the dead , prayers to saints as intercession, mary as intercessor, mary as queen, transubstanciation, Catholic belief of being saved by grace, etc

All have been posted

---

There is no biblical reference to Mary as anything other than the mother of Jesus.
She is never referred to as a queen, mediator, dispenser of grace, or anything else that the RC claim.
Even the RC admit that all of the idolatry of Mary comes from the "traditions"and not from scripture.

---

Ummmm Revelations 12:1. Already cited in this thread and others

Ccc 966 addresses this for Catholics as an output from the Magisterium

---

Mary is not named anywhere in Revelations. And the verse you referenced in heavy in symbolism, so you are apparently depending on your personal interpretation, rather than actual support in Scripture.

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Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

' book chapter and verse posted"

Odd, the references I have seen from you do not support your claims.

Maybe you could post them again if you have some which do say what you claim.

Shouldn't be hard, and frankly it's your job to support your claims, not expect someone else to prove your claims.

---

Sure. Many are here in this thread. A simple search will reveal.

Off the top of my head posts on the hail mary being biblical, purgatory, mortal and venial sins, no reference to sola scriptura, how faith and works work together, no faith alone, confession, baptism, praying for the dead , prayers to saints as intercession, mary as intercessor, mary as queen, transubstanciation, Catholic belief of being saved by grace, etc

All have been posted

---

There is no biblical reference to Mary as anything other than the mother of Jesus.
She is never referred to as a queen, mediator, dispenser of grace, or anything else that the RC claim.
Even the RC admit that all of the idolatry of Mary comes from the "traditions"and not from scripture.

---

Ummmm Revelations 12:1. Already cited in this thread and others

Ccc 966 addresses this for Catholics as an output from the Magisterium

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Mary is not named anywhere in Revelations. And the verse you referenced in heavy in symbolism, so you are apparently depending on your personal interpretation, rather than actual support in Scripture.

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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' book chapter and verse posted"

Odd, the references I have seen from you do not support your claims.

Maybe you could post them again if you have some which do say what you claim.

Shouldn't be hard, and frankly it's your job to support your claims, not expect someone else to prove your claims.

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Sure. Many are here in this thread. A simple search will reveal.

Off the top of my head posts on the hail mary being biblical, purgatory, mortal and venial sins, no reference to sola scriptura, how faith and works work together, no faith alone, confession, baptism, praying for the dead , prayers to saints as intercession, mary as intercessor, mary as queen, transubstanciation, Catholic belief of being saved by grace, etc

All have been posted

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There is no biblical reference to Mary as anything other than the mother of Jesus.
She is never referred to as a queen, mediator, dispenser of grace, or anything else that the RC claim.
Even the RC admit that all of the idolatry of Mary comes from the "traditions"and not from scripture.

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Ummmm Revelations 12:1. Already cited in this thread and others

Ccc 966 addresses this for Catholics as an output from the Magisterium

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Mary is not named anywhere in Revelations. And the verse you referenced in heavy in symbolism, so you are apparently depending on your personal interpretation, rather than actual support in Scripture.

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Oldbear83 said:

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You might want to bring up your tone in this thread, the next time you have confession.

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Oldbear83 said:

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Still no support for your claims, I see.

Just spite and spittle.

Again.

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