Minneapolis ICE shooting

58,515 Views | 1749 Replies | Last: 43 min ago by boognish_bear
FLBear5630
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ShooterTX said:

C. Jordan said:

Sam Lowry said:

ShooterTX said:

The theory is that the SIG discharged while it was being removed, and the cop thought it was fired by the criminal, so he shot back.
It makes a lot of sense.


Except that Pretti was immobilized, with both palms on the pavement, and the officer who drew his gun had just watched another officer disarm him.

There is some doubt about whether the first officer who shot saw the weapon being removed. However, there is no doubt he could clearly see that Pretti was subdued with his hands nowhere near his weapon. It seems he panicked. He had just turned from beating up the woman whom Pretti had tried to protect, so he really didn't know what was going on.

Then, other officers pumped at least six more rounds in him while he was prone on the ground, motionless.

He died with his cell phone and his glasses in his hands.

Best video breakdown I've seen:

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000010668660/new-video-analysis-reveals-flawed-and-fatal-decisions-in-shooting-of-pretti.html?smid=url-share

For many years to come, this will be a teaching tool of how poorly trained officers can screw up with deadly results.


It would be far more effective for this to be a teaching tool of just how stupid & dangerous it is to confront & fight with cops while carrying a gun.

Play stupid games, win stupid rewards.



Huh, would have taken you for a 2A NRA guy... They disagree, as do I. Carrying is not a crime and should not be a death sentence. His Sig was holstered and licensed. He did not draw it, he was video taping with his phone.

If carrying is now probable cause to use deadly force, a lot of people are going to be shot.
Harrison Bergeron
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ShooterTX said:

C. Jordan said:

Sam Lowry said:

ShooterTX said:

The theory is that the SIG discharged while it was being removed, and the cop thought it was fired by the criminal, so he shot back.
It makes a lot of sense.


Except that Pretti was immobilized, with both palms on the pavement, and the officer who drew his gun had just watched another officer disarm him.

There is some doubt about whether the first officer who shot saw the weapon being removed. However, there is no doubt he could clearly see that Pretti was subdued with his hands nowhere near his weapon. It seems he panicked. He had just turned from beating up the woman whom Pretti had tried to protect, so he really didn't know what was going on.

Then, other officers pumped at least six more rounds in him while he was prone on the ground, motionless.

He died with his cell phone and his glasses in his hands.

Best video breakdown I've seen:

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000010668660/new-video-analysis-reveals-flawed-and-fatal-decisions-in-shooting-of-pretti.html?smid=url-share

For many years to come, this will be a teaching tool of how poorly trained officers can screw up with deadly results.


It would be far more effective for this to be a teaching tool of just how stupid & dangerous it is to confront & fight with cops while carrying a gun.

Play stupid games, win stupid rewards.

Philosophically, that's the ultimate problem with the black & white, us vs. them, good & evil thinking so often deployed by the left. The immediate and frequent jump to absolutes is not helpful. I mean look at the idiot that responded to you - rather than responding he just reposts the same stupid Talking Point he saw online and has been posting for days. Shows you how there is not intellectual curiosity and just and effort to make it a game of support my tribe at all costs.

You will never see me comment on the specifics but 1) no single piece of evidence can capture the reality of the situation; 2) the law around these situations are complex; 3) only a full investigation - not a single video - an really capture the complexity; 4) everyone sees in these videos what they want to see.

Regardless, complicated situations really require nuanced, thoughtful response:
1. In a perfect world, no person would ever be killed by police
2. In the real world, they do
3. Sometimes, law enforcement officers make really bad decisions
4. Sometimes, people make really bad decisions
5. Sometimes, a combination of factors cause a tragedy

At the end of the day, often a little bit of all of the above is most likely in most cases.
ShooterTX
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FLBear5630 said:

ShooterTX said:

C. Jordan said:

Sam Lowry said:

ShooterTX said:

The theory is that the SIG discharged while it was being removed, and the cop thought it was fired by the criminal, so he shot back.
It makes a lot of sense.


Except that Pretti was immobilized, with both palms on the pavement, and the officer who drew his gun had just watched another officer disarm him.

There is some doubt about whether the first officer who shot saw the weapon being removed. However, there is no doubt he could clearly see that Pretti was subdued with his hands nowhere near his weapon. It seems he panicked. He had just turned from beating up the woman whom Pretti had tried to protect, so he really didn't know what was going on.

Then, other officers pumped at least six more rounds in him while he was prone on the ground, motionless.

He died with his cell phone and his glasses in his hands.

Best video breakdown I've seen:

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000010668660/new-video-analysis-reveals-flawed-and-fatal-decisions-in-shooting-of-pretti.html?smid=url-share

For many years to come, this will be a teaching tool of how poorly trained officers can screw up with deadly results.


It would be far more effective for this to be a teaching tool of just how stupid & dangerous it is to confront & fight with cops while carrying a gun.

Play stupid games, win stupid rewards.



Huh, would have taken you for a 2A NRA guy... They disagree, as do I. Carrying is not a crime and should not be a death sentence. His Sig was holstered and licensed. He did not draw it, he was video taping with his phone.

If carrying is now probable cause to use deadly force, a lot of people are going to be shot.


Carrying is not probable cause, and no one has ever said so.
Carrying a gun while obstructing officers, and then resisting arrest.... that's just stupid & dangerous.
He was not there to just film, he was there to stop officers from performing their duty and to aid the criminals who were trying to evade arrest.

It is a very false narrative to say he was just an observer. He was part of the organized group who were trying to stop ICE from arresting illegals.

The idea that he was shot because he was peacefully carrying a weapon is just insane.

If you're going to be confronting officers, you should know that carrying a gun is VASTLY increasing your chances of death instead of arrest.

Why the hell was he carrying a gun? The only people out there were cops, illegals and anti-ICE operatives. Since he was one of the anti-ICE folks, then he was either concerned about the illegals or the ICE officers. If he was concerned about the illegals, then he should be supporting ICE. If he was carrying to protect himself from ICE officers.... then it went down exactly as it did.
ShooterTX
D. C. Bear
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FLBear5630 said:

ShooterTX said:

C. Jordan said:

Sam Lowry said:

ShooterTX said:

The theory is that the SIG discharged while it was being removed, and the cop thought it was fired by the criminal, so he shot back.
It makes a lot of sense.


Except that Pretti was immobilized, with both palms on the pavement, and the officer who drew his gun had just watched another officer disarm him.

There is some doubt about whether the first officer who shot saw the weapon being removed. However, there is no doubt he could clearly see that Pretti was subdued with his hands nowhere near his weapon. It seems he panicked. He had just turned from beating up the woman whom Pretti had tried to protect, so he really didn't know what was going on.

Then, other officers pumped at least six more rounds in him while he was prone on the ground, motionless.

He died with his cell phone and his glasses in his hands.

Best video breakdown I've seen:

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000010668660/new-video-analysis-reveals-flawed-and-fatal-decisions-in-shooting-of-pretti.html?smid=url-share

For many years to come, this will be a teaching tool of how poorly trained officers can screw up with deadly results.


It would be far more effective for this to be a teaching tool of just how stupid & dangerous it is to confront & fight with cops while carrying a gun.

Play stupid games, win stupid rewards.



Huh, would have taken you for a 2A NRA guy... They disagree, as do I. Carrying is not a crime and should not be a death sentence. His Sig was holstered and licensed. He did not draw it, he was video taping with his phone.

If carrying is now probable cause to use deadly force, a lot of people are going to be shot.


Two things can be true at the same time. You can have a legal right to carry a weapon and carrying a weapon and confronting law enforcement officers in a very chaotic situation can increase the odds of a very, very bad outcome.

If you see someone close to an intersection at 60 m.p.h but you have a green light, you don't pull out in front of them even though the light is green. The accident won't be your "fault" but you will be the dead or seriously injured.
Robert Wilson
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Harrison Bergeron said:

You will never see me comment on the specifics but 1) no single piece of evidence can capture the reality of the situation; 2) the law around these situations are complex; 3) only a full investigation - not a single video - an really capture the complexity; 4) everyone sees in these videos what they want to see.

Regardless, complicated situations really require nuanced, thoughtful response:
1. In a perfect world, no person would ever be killed by police
2. In the real world, they do
3. Sometimes, law enforcement officers make really bad decisions
4. Sometimes, people make really bad decisions
5. Sometimes, a combination of factors cause a tragedy

At the end of the day, often a little bit of all of the above is most likely in most cases.

Well said.

People see a video and think they can totally dissect a complex / dynamic situation. Newsflash: you can't. "I trust what I see." Well, you shouldn't - at least not nearly so much. People are wrong about what they see and the interpretation of what they see ALL THE TIME, despite being 100% convinced of it. In almost all of these situations, I'm willing to bet each party fkd up a little and left an opportunity to avoid this outcome on the table. Portioning out blame is way more difficult than people like to think that it is.

So ... what does any sane person tell those he loves about this? Say your kids? Probably something like ... yeah don't show up at police actions at all - much less armed and agitated / filming / making noise. Bad **** can happen even if no one intends it. Go to work. Get a hobby. Find a girl. Build a boat. Read a book. Get a side hustle. Whatever. But don't go stick your nose into law enforcement that has nothing to do with you.
KaiBear
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D C for the win.

Post of the Month

ScottS
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Sam Lowry said:

Jessica Hauser

I was Alex Pretti's final nursing student. He was my friend and my nursing mentor. For the past four months, I stood shoulder to shoulder with him during my capstone preceptorship at the Minneapolis VA Hospital. There he trained me to care for the sickest of the sick as an ICU nurse. He taught me how to care for arterial and central lines, the intricacies of managing multiple IVs filled with lifesaving solutions, and how to watch over every heartbeat, every breath, and every flicker of life, ready to act the moment they wavered. Techniques intended to heal.

Alex carried patience, compassion and calm as a steady light within him. Even at the very end, that light was there. I recognized his familiar stillness and signature calm composure shining through during those unbearable final moments captured on camera.

It does not surprise me that his final words were, "Are you okay?" Caring for people was at the core of who he was. He was incapable of causing harm. He lived a life of healing, and he lived it well.

Alex believed strongly in the Second Amendment and in the rights rooted in our Constitution and its amendments. He spoke out for justice and peace whenever he could, not only out of obligation, but out of a belief that we are more connected than divided, and that communication would bring us together.

I want his family to know his legacy lives on. I am a better nurse because of the wisdom and skills he instilled in me. I carry his light with me into every room, letting it guide and steady my hands as I heal and care for those in need.

Please honor my friend by standing up for peace, preferably with a cup of black coffee in hand and a couple of pieces of candy in your pocket, just as he would. He would remind you that caring for others is hard work, and we must do whatever it takes to get through the long shifts. Step outside with your dog, breathe in the world, hike or bike as he loved to do, and let yourself find peace in the quiet moments within nature. Stand up for justice and speak with those whose views differ from your own. Hold your beliefs with strength, but always extend love outward, even in the face of adversity.

Take one step, no matter how small, to help heal our world. Through these acts, carry his light forward in his name. Let his legacy continue to heal.

Is that step to stand up for open borders?
boognish_bear
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Oldbear83
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" If carrying is now probable cause to use deadly force, a lot of people are going to be shot."

Yet again a dishonest attempt to ignore the context of the situation.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Robert Wilson
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boognish_bear said:



This is extremely reasonable - basically make a guest worker program for those here illegally but with no criminal record, have jobs, etc. Put a withholding tax on their income. Deport immediately upon any criminal activity.

My only issue is with their kids being citizens, but hell we already have that problem. Also, interestingly, Democrats can't count on these Hispanic voters. Dems will run them off over time with trans issues or other similar nonsense. The Catholicism / familial culture helps quite a bit there over time.
cowboycwr
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303Bear said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

The_barBEARian said:

303Bear said:

The_barBEARian said:

boognish_bear said:

That Truth Social post from Trump is good to see. That should help to turn the temperature down.




This white ***** is reading things into his post.... but she brings up a interesting point. Trump needs to stand behind the officer involved in this shooting. If they sacrifice another officer to the communists to cleanse themselves of any blame then I and many others will sit out the midterms. Republicans need to support our ICE officers the way the left supports their domestic terrorists and antifa foot soldiers.

Way to start from a position of reasoned sexism.

So do the same thing that former presidents (Obama with the "acted stupidly" comments, as a singular example) did, but in a way you support, despite the pendency of any investigation or any evidence to the contrary.

Can you provide any actual evidence of the deceased being part of any domestic terrorist cell or a member of antifa?

If investigating and possibly holding ICE officers who pursued three people across a street, pushed two of them to the ground (both women - I thought defense of women was a big thing on the right the last few years) then shot another US citizen 5+ times (i have seen the number be high as 10, but I have not seen it confirmed how many rounds actually hit his body) accountable is a " sacrifice [of] another officer to the communists" then we might as well pack it up and all give up on governmental accountability at any level.

For the record, I dont think Derek Chauvin should have been convicted, so I look forward to addressing a different irrelevant deflection you will undoubtedly raise.


I'm more concerned with Somalia Gangster accountability right now and the billions in fraud that the American tax payer is expected to pay for.

The guy was a cancer to this nation and I'm happy he's dead. I'm going to pretend like everyone else on this board that it is a shame that my enemy, who wouldn't give a **** about myself or my family getting robbed or murdered by illegal criminals, got shot and killed for provoking, harassing, and physically assaulting ICE officers.



What does welfare fraud have to do with the ICE operations in MN? Most of the names I have seen of those arrested are Hispanic with very few Somali's here and there. Is ICE required to investigate the fraud? Why even bring that up in this discussion? Welfare fraud can be bad (it is, its rampant and needs to be curbed) and other things can still be true.

Sad you are happy another person is dead just because he didn't agree with your politics on a singular issue (and maybe he did generally agree, just not with the current federal approach to arresting illegals (and a few hundred/thousand citizens without warrant or basis - but what are constitutional violations if I like the policy and optics)). Seems like you have a very binary and non-critical view of the situation. Thats too bad.



Welfare fraud has everything to do here because it has been reported many of those doing the fraud are not citizens.

Non citizens don't get constitutional rights.

The bolded is just factually and legally incorrect.


No it is factually correct and legally correct.

Otherwise why are we not running all over the world to arrest those who are violating our constitution???

Because the constitution only applies to citizens.



Not sure what is more shocking; that you somehow managed to be more wrong the second time, or that someone actually starred this post.


And yet you can't seem to answer a question but instead go off on a tangent.



You could google it but I am happy to oblige for the sake of I have nothing better to do with my time.

1. The Constitution applies to non-citizens generally. This was first established in 1903 under the Fuller court. Far from some radical, Melville Fuller was quite conservative and his court was far from activist. This general notion has been affirmed and expanded by numerous SCOTUS decisions over the years and has not been seriously challenged ever to my knowledge. There are certain limitations, but everyone in the US gets general civil rights under our constitution, even those here illegally.

2. We dont police the world because we lack generally lack jurisdiction outside of our borders (with the exception of crimes against the US, and the apprehension of individuals with active federal arrest warrants - this is the basis the admin is going with for calling the capture of Maduro legal, we will see where that goes but based on existing precedent, they are probably right).



1. And what part of the constitution did this guy make the decision that it applies to non citizens. Specifically what words did he find that say "this document applies to non citizens." It doesn't say that. So he has decided it applies and no one has yet challenged it.

Courts once said slaves were not citizens. They once said the constitution did not apply to slaves or native Americans. Courts can be wrong.

2. So we don't police the world but you are saying that the constitution applies to the whole world. Got it.

Take a constitutional law class, people practice it their entire lives and can only scratch the surface. I am not going to write you a treatise on procedural due process because you wont google settled law.

As for slaves, is that really an argument you want to make? They were not originally offered constitutional protection because they were not legally people in the United States. Slaves were considered chattel property (other than for census and congressional apportionment, where they were considered 3/5 of a person to the sole benefit of the south).

Your number 2 is literally the exact opposite of what I am saying. The constitution (at least some/most of it) applies to all US states and territories and the people in them. A person from Mexico who never enters the US is entitled to no constitutional rights. Once here though, they are granted general protection. If a tourist from Europe is arrested for drunk driving, we dont automatically throw them in jail, they are still entitled to a trial under the 5th amendment just like anyone else.


We the people of the United States.

Not we the people of the world. Or we the people that happen to enter this land, be in the United States.

We the people of the United States.

We the people of the United States.

Provide the word from the constitution that says it covers anyone who enters the US.

Not the words from a person who has interpreted it that way and everyone else has just followed it.
boognish_bear
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boognish_bear
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Realitybites
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Robert Wilson said:

This is extremely reasonable - basically make a guest worker program for those here illegally but with no criminal record, have jobs, etc. Put a withholding tax on their income. Deport immediately upon any criminal activity.


We're talking about AI replacing human workers. There is no excuse to have a guest worker program at this point.

Quote:

My only issue is with their kids being citizens, but hell we already have that problem. Also, interestingly, Democrats can't count on these Hispanic voters. Dems will run them off over time with trans issues or other similar nonsense. The Catholicism / familial culture helps quite a bit there over time.


Look at Central America. Look at South America.

Besides Argentina and El Salvador, where would you consider living?

Socialism, fueled by the deep roots of "liberation theology" in Spanish speaking Roman Catholic jurisidctions, is endemic.
FLBear5630
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boognish_bear said:



Nah, it was perfectly handled. It is those that questioned that were wrong.
Forest Bueller III
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J.R. said:

Welcome to Trump world. Fistly, this doesn't happen without fish lip pigman wasn't in the WH. He has sowed unbelievable division in this country. secondly, the guy had a conceal and carry and was stripped of his lawful weapon and shot 10 times. 10 effing times. You Maga are all about the conceal and carry which I support, but have an issue here. So disingenuous. The Ice guy should have the gun turned on him and shot between the eye . That twat Noem has to GTFO

Shot at 10 times, I think only struck 5 times. Such a dangerous overreaction that could have easily killed multiple people with ricochets and other potential issues.

Noem no longer has the characteristics of a human being.
ABC BEAR
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boognish_bear said:



In a related story: My sources tell me that, in an effort to distance himself from current travails, Minnesota Fats will soon announce he is changing his name to Amarillo Slim.
Harrison Bergeron
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Robert Wilson said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

You will never see me comment on the specifics but 1) no single piece of evidence can capture the reality of the situation; 2) the law around these situations are complex; 3) only a full investigation - not a single video - an really capture the complexity; 4) everyone sees in these videos what they want to see.

Regardless, complicated situations really require nuanced, thoughtful response:
1. In a perfect world, no person would ever be killed by police
2. In the real world, they do
3. Sometimes, law enforcement officers make really bad decisions
4. Sometimes, people make really bad decisions
5. Sometimes, a combination of factors cause a tragedy

At the end of the day, often a little bit of all of the above is most likely in most cases.

Well said.

People see a video and think they can totally dissect a complex / dynamic situation. Newsflash: you can't. "I trust what I see." Well, you shouldn't - at least not nearly so much. People are wrong about what they see and the interpretation of what they see ALL THE TIME, despite being 100% convinced of it. In almost all of these situations, I'm willing to bet each party fkd up a little and left an opportunity to avoid this outcome on the table. Portioning out blame is way more difficult than people like to think that it is.

So ... what does any sane person tell those he loves about this? Say your kids? Probably something like ... yeah don't show up at police actions at all - much less armed and agitated / filming / making noise. Bad **** can happen even if no one intends it. Go to work. Get a hobby. Find a girl. Build a boat. Read a book. Get a side hustle. Whatever. But don't go stick your nose into law enforcement that has nothing to do with you.

I think it is simple:
1. Don't join anti-government militias
2. Don't interfere with law enforcement
3. Comply with law enforcement instructions
4. If you're protesting the arrest of child molesters and rapists, re-evaluate your priorities
whiterock
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The_barBEARian said:

Sam Lowry said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

The_barBEARian said:

303Bear said:

The_barBEARian said:

boognish_bear said:

That Truth Social post from Trump is good to see. That should help to turn the temperature down.




This white ***** is reading things into his post.... but she brings up a interesting point. Trump needs to stand behind the officer involved in this shooting. If they sacrifice another officer to the communists to cleanse themselves of any blame then I and many others will sit out the midterms. Republicans need to support our ICE officers the way the left supports their domestic terrorists and antifa foot soldiers.

Way to start from a position of reasoned sexism.

So do the same thing that former presidents (Obama with the "acted stupidly" comments, as a singular example) did, but in a way you support, despite the pendency of any investigation or any evidence to the contrary.

Can you provide any actual evidence of the deceased being part of any domestic terrorist cell or a member of antifa?

If investigating and possibly holding ICE officers who pursued three people across a street, pushed two of them to the ground (both women - I thought defense of women was a big thing on the right the last few years) then shot another US citizen 5+ times (i have seen the number be high as 10, but I have not seen it confirmed how many rounds actually hit his body) accountable is a " sacrifice [of] another officer to the communists" then we might as well pack it up and all give up on governmental accountability at any level.

For the record, I dont think Derek Chauvin should have been convicted, so I look forward to addressing a different irrelevant deflection you will undoubtedly raise.


I'm more concerned with Somalia Gangster accountability right now and the billions in fraud that the American tax payer is expected to pay for.

The guy was a cancer to this nation and I'm happy he's dead. I'm going to pretend like everyone else on this board that it is a shame that my enemy, who wouldn't give a **** about myself or my family getting robbed or murdered by illegal criminals, got shot and killed for provoking, harassing, and physically assaulting ICE officers.



What does welfare fraud have to do with the ICE operations in MN? Most of the names I have seen of those arrested are Hispanic with very few Somali's here and there. Is ICE required to investigate the fraud? Why even bring that up in this discussion? Welfare fraud can be bad (it is, its rampant and needs to be curbed) and other things can still be true.

Sad you are happy another person is dead just because he didn't agree with your politics on a singular issue (and maybe he did generally agree, just not with the current federal approach to arresting illegals (and a few hundred/thousand citizens without warrant or basis - but what are constitutional violations if I like the policy and optics)). Seems like you have a very binary and non-critical view of the situation. Thats too bad.



Welfare fraud has everything to do here because it has been reported many of those doing the fraud are not citizens.

Non citizens don't get constitutional rights.

The bolded is just factually and legally incorrect.


No it is factually correct and legally correct.

Otherwise why are we not running all over the world to arrest those who are violating our constitution???

Because the constitution only applies to citizens.



Incorrect.


Bcs some stupid low IQ ******* Judge decided it hundreds of years after the constitution doesn't mean it's right.

The founding fathers never intended the bill of rights to apply to non-citizens and that is very clear bcs it never extended to slaves or Indians.

You leftists corrupt our laws and institutions and twist them into grotesque caricatures of themselves.

Any Supreme Court that was filled with competent Judges would reverse constitutional rights applying to non citizens.

It's unconstitutional and worthy of a revolution honestly.

well I'll be dang. you managed to make a post without blaming the Jews. Kudos for that much, at least....


whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

cowboycwr said:

Sam Lowry said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

The_barBEARian said:

303Bear said:

The_barBEARian said:

boognish_bear said:

That Truth Social post from Trump is good to see. That should help to turn the temperature down.




This white ***** is reading things into his post.... but she brings up a interesting point. Trump needs to stand behind the officer involved in this shooting. If they sacrifice another officer to the communists to cleanse themselves of any blame then I and many others will sit out the midterms. Republicans need to support our ICE officers the way the left supports their domestic terrorists and antifa foot soldiers.

Way to start from a position of reasoned sexism.

So do the same thing that former presidents (Obama with the "acted stupidly" comments, as a singular example) did, but in a way you support, despite the pendency of any investigation or any evidence to the contrary.

Can you provide any actual evidence of the deceased being part of any domestic terrorist cell or a member of antifa?

If investigating and possibly holding ICE officers who pursued three people across a street, pushed two of them to the ground (both women - I thought defense of women was a big thing on the right the last few years) then shot another US citizen 5+ times (i have seen the number be high as 10, but I have not seen it confirmed how many rounds actually hit his body) accountable is a " sacrifice [of] another officer to the communists" then we might as well pack it up and all give up on governmental accountability at any level.

For the record, I dont think Derek Chauvin should have been convicted, so I look forward to addressing a different irrelevant deflection you will undoubtedly raise.


I'm more concerned with Somalia Gangster accountability right now and the billions in fraud that the American tax payer is expected to pay for.

The guy was a cancer to this nation and I'm happy he's dead. I'm going to pretend like everyone else on this board that it is a shame that my enemy, who wouldn't give a **** about myself or my family getting robbed or murdered by illegal criminals, got shot and killed for provoking, harassing, and physically assaulting ICE officers.



What does welfare fraud have to do with the ICE operations in MN? Most of the names I have seen of those arrested are Hispanic with very few Somali's here and there. Is ICE required to investigate the fraud? Why even bring that up in this discussion? Welfare fraud can be bad (it is, its rampant and needs to be curbed) and other things can still be true.

Sad you are happy another person is dead just because he didn't agree with your politics on a singular issue (and maybe he did generally agree, just not with the current federal approach to arresting illegals (and a few hundred/thousand citizens without warrant or basis - but what are constitutional violations if I like the policy and optics)). Seems like you have a very binary and non-critical view of the situation. Thats too bad.



Welfare fraud has everything to do here because it has been reported many of those doing the fraud are not citizens.

Non citizens don't get constitutional rights.

The bolded is just factually and legally incorrect.


No it is factually correct and legally correct.

Otherwise why are we not running all over the world to arrest those who are violating our constitution???

Because the constitution only applies to citizens.



Incorrect.


Then please explain why we are not running around the world enforcing the constitution if it applies to all people?

It has been incorrectly deemed to apply to non citizens by idiot leftist judges but it does not apply to non citizens and they do not have the same protections as citizens.

Because the whole world isn't under our jurisdiction (as much as Trump might like it to be).

you got it right on two posts in a row. Well done!
boognish_bear
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Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

cowboycwr said:

Sam Lowry said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

The_barBEARian said:

303Bear said:

The_barBEARian said:

boognish_bear said:

That Truth Social post from Trump is good to see. That should help to turn the temperature down.




This white ***** is reading things into his post.... but she brings up a interesting point. Trump needs to stand behind the officer involved in this shooting. If they sacrifice another officer to the communists to cleanse themselves of any blame then I and many others will sit out the midterms. Republicans need to support our ICE officers the way the left supports their domestic terrorists and antifa foot soldiers.

Way to start from a position of reasoned sexism.

So do the same thing that former presidents (Obama with the "acted stupidly" comments, as a singular example) did, but in a way you support, despite the pendency of any investigation or any evidence to the contrary.

Can you provide any actual evidence of the deceased being part of any domestic terrorist cell or a member of antifa?

If investigating and possibly holding ICE officers who pursued three people across a street, pushed two of them to the ground (both women - I thought defense of women was a big thing on the right the last few years) then shot another US citizen 5+ times (i have seen the number be high as 10, but I have not seen it confirmed how many rounds actually hit his body) accountable is a " sacrifice [of] another officer to the communists" then we might as well pack it up and all give up on governmental accountability at any level.

For the record, I dont think Derek Chauvin should have been convicted, so I look forward to addressing a different irrelevant deflection you will undoubtedly raise.


I'm more concerned with Somalia Gangster accountability right now and the billions in fraud that the American tax payer is expected to pay for.

The guy was a cancer to this nation and I'm happy he's dead. I'm going to pretend like everyone else on this board that it is a shame that my enemy, who wouldn't give a **** about myself or my family getting robbed or murdered by illegal criminals, got shot and killed for provoking, harassing, and physically assaulting ICE officers.



What does welfare fraud have to do with the ICE operations in MN? Most of the names I have seen of those arrested are Hispanic with very few Somali's here and there. Is ICE required to investigate the fraud? Why even bring that up in this discussion? Welfare fraud can be bad (it is, its rampant and needs to be curbed) and other things can still be true.

Sad you are happy another person is dead just because he didn't agree with your politics on a singular issue (and maybe he did generally agree, just not with the current federal approach to arresting illegals (and a few hundred/thousand citizens without warrant or basis - but what are constitutional violations if I like the policy and optics)). Seems like you have a very binary and non-critical view of the situation. Thats too bad.



Welfare fraud has everything to do here because it has been reported many of those doing the fraud are not citizens.

Non citizens don't get constitutional rights.

The bolded is just factually and legally incorrect.


No it is factually correct and legally correct.

Otherwise why are we not running all over the world to arrest those who are violating our constitution???

Because the constitution only applies to citizens.



Incorrect.


Then please explain why we are not running around the world enforcing the constitution if it applies to all people?

It has been incorrectly deemed to apply to non citizens by idiot leftist judges but it does not apply to non citizens and they do not have the same protections as citizens.

Because the whole world isn't under our jurisdiction (as much as Trump might like it to be).

you got it right on two posts in a row. Well done!
If I can do it, so can you!
Robert Wilson
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Realitybites said:

Robert Wilson said:

This is extremely reasonable - basically make a guest worker program for those here illegally but with no criminal record, have jobs, etc. Put a withholding tax on their income. Deport immediately upon any criminal activity.


We're talking about AI replacing human workers. There is no excuse to have a guest worker program at this point.

Quote:

My only issue is with their kids being citizens, but hell we already have that problem. Also, interestingly, Democrats can't count on these Hispanic voters. Dems will run them off over time with trans issues or other similar nonsense. The Catholicism / familial culture helps quite a bit there over time.


Look at Central America. Look at South America.

Besides Argentina and El Salvador, where would you consider living?

Socialism, fueled by the deep roots of "liberation theology" in Spanish speaking Roman Catholic jurisidctions, is endemic.

You just made two theoretical points that are divorced from our present reality.

1. These people are already here. Btw, I'm cool with adding a "so long as you stay gainfully employed" requirement. If not, you have to go home.
2. Modern day US democrats will do all kinds of insane/woke things to drive off Central & South Americans, just like they've largely done with Mexicans. I don't want to live in Mexico either, but the Dems are still driving those people into Trump's arms.
whiterock
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cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

cowboycwr said:

303Bear said:

The_barBEARian said:

303Bear said:

The_barBEARian said:

boognish_bear said:

That Truth Social post from Trump is good to see. That should help to turn the temperature down.




This white ***** is reading things into his post.... but she brings up a interesting point. Trump needs to stand behind the officer involved in this shooting. If they sacrifice another officer to the communists to cleanse themselves of any blame then I and many others will sit out the midterms. Republicans need to support our ICE officers the way the left supports their domestic terrorists and antifa foot soldiers.

Way to start from a position of reasoned sexism.

So do the same thing that former presidents (Obama with the "acted stupidly" comments, as a singular example) did, but in a way you support, despite the pendency of any investigation or any evidence to the contrary.

Can you provide any actual evidence of the deceased being part of any domestic terrorist cell or a member of antifa?

If investigating and possibly holding ICE officers who pursued three people across a street, pushed two of them to the ground (both women - I thought defense of women was a big thing on the right the last few years) then shot another US citizen 5+ times (i have seen the number be high as 10, but I have not seen it confirmed how many rounds actually hit his body) accountable is a " sacrifice [of] another officer to the communists" then we might as well pack it up and all give up on governmental accountability at any level.

For the record, I dont think Derek Chauvin should have been convicted, so I look forward to addressing a different irrelevant deflection you will undoubtedly raise.


I'm more concerned with Somalia Gangster accountability right now and the billions in fraud that the American tax payer is expected to pay for.

The guy was a cancer to this nation and I'm happy he's dead. I'm going to pretend like everyone else on this board that it is a shame that my enemy, who wouldn't give a **** about myself or my family getting robbed or murdered by illegal criminals, got shot and killed for provoking, harassing, and physically assaulting ICE officers.



What does welfare fraud have to do with the ICE operations in MN? Most of the names I have seen of those arrested are Hispanic with very few Somali's here and there. Is ICE required to investigate the fraud? Why even bring that up in this discussion? Welfare fraud can be bad (it is, its rampant and needs to be curbed) and other things can still be true.

Sad you are happy another person is dead just because he didn't agree with your politics on a singular issue (and maybe he did generally agree, just not with the current federal approach to arresting illegals (and a few hundred/thousand citizens without warrant or basis - but what are constitutional violations if I like the policy and optics)). Seems like you have a very binary and non-critical view of the situation. Thats too bad.



Welfare fraud has everything to do here because it has been reported many of those doing the fraud are not citizens.

Non citizens don't get constitutional rights.

The bolded is just factually and legally incorrect.


No it is factually correct and legally correct.

Otherwise why are we not running all over the world to arrest those who are violating our constitution???

Because the constitution only applies to citizens.



Not sure what is more shocking; that you somehow managed to be more wrong the second time, or that someone actually starred this post.


And yet you can't seem to answer a question but instead go off on a tangent.



You could google it but I am happy to oblige for the sake of I have nothing better to do with my time.

1. The Constitution applies to non-citizens generally. This was first established in 1903 under the Fuller court. Far from some radical, Melville Fuller was quite conservative and his court was far from activist. This general notion has been affirmed and expanded by numerous SCOTUS decisions over the years and has not been seriously challenged ever to my knowledge. There are certain limitations, but everyone in the US gets general civil rights under our constitution, even those here illegally.

2. We dont police the world because we lack generally lack jurisdiction outside of our borders (with the exception of crimes against the US, and the apprehension of individuals with active federal arrest warrants - this is the basis the admin is going with for calling the capture of Maduro legal, we will see where that goes but based on existing precedent, they are probably right).



1. And what part of the constitution did this guy make the decision that it applies to non citizens. Specifically what words did he find that say "this document applies to non citizens." It doesn't say that. So he has decided it applies and no one has yet challenged it.

Courts once said slaves were not citizens. They once said the constitution did not apply to slaves or native Americans. Courts can be wrong.

2. So we don't police the world but you are saying that the constitution applies to the whole world. Got it.

This is a very simple legal principle taught to me not in law school, but consular commissioning school focused on the INA. It goes like this. Our laws apply to all persons within the jurisdiction of US courts. And within the jurisdiction of US courts, "all men are created equal." So citizenship is not relevant when it comes to due process, all the enumerated rights in the Bill of Rights. Miranda rights, etc..... In our common law system, courts have repeatedly looked to founding documents for guidance. And the Declaration of Independence is instructive: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..." We cannot enforce that abroad. But we can here. So we do.

The way to make that legal tradition irrelevant? Deport illegal aliens. Arrest them. Take them to a deportation hearing. Deport them. No need for Miranda rights or public defender or any of the other rights which could overturn a conviction. We do not need to convict and incarcerate someone for being here illegally. We need to simply deport them. Sidesteps all the "rights" questions.

All that's to say is.....you are wrong. Our laws apply equally to everyone within the jurisdiction of US courts, citizens and illegal aliens alike. If that reality is unpleasant, take solace in the escape hatch - deportation. Make the rights question irrelevant by simply deporting illegal aliens.
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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How are things going in Minneapolis? I am thinking Pretti Good.
Call it a tax, the people are outraged! Call it a tariff, the people get out their checkbooks and wave their American flags!!!
boognish_bear
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Forest Bueller III
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boognish_bear said:



I thought these were supposed to be "targeted" raids, meaning they already know the individual person they are after and what they are going to do about it.

Looks like "targeted" raids actually mean they can scoop up any random brown person they see on the street fishing for a hit.
whiterock
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Forest Bueller III said:

boognish_bear said:



I thought these were supposed to be "targeted" raids, meaning they already know the individual person they are after and what they are going to do about it.

Looks like "targeted" raids actually mean they can scoop up any random brown person they see on the street fishing for a hit.

not quite that. they need "reasonable suspicion."
https://www.aol.com/news/tom-homan-describes-ice-requires-004332898.html

The reason for the lower standard is that the ultimate objective is not a criminal prosecution, but rather a deportation.

This is pretty simple - The more illegal aliens you have, the more deportations you have. And in deportations you have, the more deportation operations you have to run. The more deportations operations you run, the more encounters you are going to have with US citizens. There is a really neat trick to minimize the number of times that happens - DON'T LET ILLEGAL ALIENS INTO THE COUNTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE.
boognish_bear
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boognish_bear
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boognish_bear
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Forest Bueller III
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whiterock said:

Forest Bueller III said:

boognish_bear said:



I thought these were supposed to be "targeted" raids, meaning they already know the individual person they are after and what they are going to do about it.

Looks like "targeted" raids actually mean they can scoop up any random brown person they see on the street fishing for a hit.

not quite that. they need "reasonable suspicion."
https://www.aol.com/news/tom-homan-describes-ice-requires-004332898.html

The reason for the lower standard is that the ultimate objective is not a criminal prosecution, but rather a deportation.

This is pretty simple - The more illegal aliens you have, the more deportations you have. And in deportations you have, the more deportation operations you have to run. The more deportations operations you run, the more encounters you are going to have with US citizens. There is a really neat trick to minimize the number of times that happens - DON'T LET ILLEGAL ALIENS INTO THE COUNTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I agree 100% with the bolded.

I don't agree with "fishing" just because you see a brown person. Being brown is not reasonable suspicion and that is the bar right now. Not good enough.
whiterock
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Forest Bueller III said:

whiterock said:

Forest Bueller III said:

boognish_bear said:



I thought these were supposed to be "targeted" raids, meaning they already know the individual person they are after and what they are going to do about it.

Looks like "targeted" raids actually mean they can scoop up any random brown person they see on the street fishing for a hit.

not quite that. they need "reasonable suspicion."
https://www.aol.com/news/tom-homan-describes-ice-requires-004332898.html

The reason for the lower standard is that the ultimate objective is not a criminal prosecution, but rather a deportation.

This is pretty simple - The more illegal aliens you have, the more deportations you have. And in deportations you have, the more deportation operations you have to run. The more deportations operations you run, the more encounters you are going to have with US citizens. There is a really neat trick to minimize the number of times that happens - DON'T LET ILLEGAL ALIENS INTO THE COUNTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I agree 100% with the bolded.

I don't agree with "fishing" just because you see a brown person. Being brown is not reasonable suspicion and that is the bar right now. Not good enough.

I agree, but there's no evidence whatsoever that all brown people are being targeted for questioning and/or detention. Just a statistically insignificant number of people who happen to be wrong place, wrong time. Very reasonable error rate.

Squeal if you want, but you're making it all up just so you can pat yourself on the back for caring about the "noble savage."
boognish_bear
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boognish_bear
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