BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

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Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

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Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

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Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

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Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

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Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

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Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

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You have no authority to make such claims.

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Exactly what they told John the Baptist and Jesus.

You're focusing on "authority". You need to focus on whether what's being said is true.

Do I really need to be an "authority" to tell you that going to Mary for your salvation, and crediting her for it is NOT going to save you?

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You don't need authority to say Christ is the Son of God, as all Christians believe that.

You need authority when you try to interpret scripture to support your claim that practicing Catholics go to Hell, since the major thought-leaders as well as the majority of your respective sect don't even hold the same beliefs.

What denomination are you? Which church do you attend?

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My denomination and church are completely irrelevant. For all you know, I'm a "voice crying out on the Internet". What's relevant is whether what I'm saying true, or not. Judge what is being said by its own merits, not by the person who is saying them. The authority anyone can go by is Scripture. So by Scripture, how am I wrong?

And I didn't ask if one needs "authority" to say that Chist is the Son of God - I asked if one needs authority to be able to know and say that going to Mary for one's salvation, and crediting her for it will NOT save them.

And I don't think you know what "major thought-leaders" in Protestantism actually believe. Many of them agree with me. As for the laypeople in my "sect", the "majority" claim is questionable, but regardless, a majority doesn't make something correct.

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It matters because it shows that you're just a lone nut, the general consensus from your side of the aisle, including the brightest minds, is that Catholics are saved.

What's your denomination and church? Stop running from the question.

Catholics don't go to Mary for Salvation. You're a dimwit for even suggesting that we do.

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Rather, to the entire rational world, the "nut" and the "dimwit" is the person who does and believes all these things, and tells themself that it isn't worship of Mary:

• you bow down to statues and images of her, and pray to her in church
• you sing hymns to her in church
• you build and name churches for her, in her honor
• you hold hundreds of festivals yearly for her all over the world
• you have prayers which say her name ten times as much as you say God's name
• you have prayers which call her "peacemaker between sinners and God", "ruler of my house", "God of this world", "the salvation of the universe"
• you ask her to "grant that we may go to heaven" and you tell her "in your hands I place my salvation"
• you call her "Advocate", "Co-Mediatrix", "The ALL HOLY ONE"
• you believe "we can entrust ALL our cares and petitions to her"
• you "surrender 'the hour of our death' wholly to her care."
• you believe she is the "road we must travel to get to God"
• you believe that "all salvation comes only through HER"
• you believe apparitions of her that command you to make sacrifices to HER "Immaculate Heart"
• you have psalms of her, which take the Psalms of the Bible and remove God's name and put her name in its place

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Hahaha look at you scrambling, total lies.

"All salvation comes only through her" Where did you even get that? Who says that?

The Vatican officially ruled against the titles of "Co-Redemptrix" and "Co-mediatrix" titles in 2025.

The Vatican also doesn't require Catholics to believe in Apparitions.

You're a total dolt. Nothing you're saying is doctrine.

I was wondering why BustyTarp chose today to have a crash out about Mary, turns out today was the feast day of our Lady of Fatima. You can't make this stuff up….

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Did you read the post right above yours, "dolt"? There's your answer to "who says that?"
Was the Vatican's declaration about "Co-Mediatrix" an ex cathedra declaration? Is your Catechism which calls Mary that been officially been revoked?
The Vatican considers the apparitions "worthy of belief". They don't have to require it, in order to be teaching it.
I actually didn't know that today was Fatima day. Chalk that up to divine guidance that we're talking about this topic.

You're flailing. It's best to just accept the truth, instead of lash out against us for telling you the truth. Roman Catholics are worshiping Mary, and to get around it, they just change the definition of "worship". Sorry to tell you, but God is not going to buy in to your semantics.

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Same advice to Shooter, instead of playing mental gymnastics, go ask a priest. Or look it up….?

Seriously, anyone of this opinion is a low-IQ person. I'm ashamed of myself for entertaining you this long.

ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

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Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

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Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

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Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

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I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

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So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

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It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

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That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

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Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

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Catholic Doctrine doesn't tell anyone to worship Mary. You're disgustingly uneducated, you've demonstrated that.

Lmao, Protestants will cry about a Church having a statue of Mary but won't think twice about wearing a sports jersey with another man's name on their back every Sunday or having signed autographs hanging in their man cave.

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That's interesting... so you are saying that wearing a sports jersey is the same as idolatry? You really believe that?
I've worn a Spurs jersey before, but I've never bowed to it, or prayed to it asking it for blessings, not have i said prayers of thanks to it for my salvation, not have I sung songs of praise to it, not have I built a chapel in is honor.... you really have no understanding of the words "idolatry" or "worship" as they are described by God in the scriptures.

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

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Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

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Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

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Not "practicing", but "believing". But as I said, if they truly believe, they will be led away from practicing.

If other Protestants are true believers, then yes, they will agree with me. Only they might not say so, because many do not have the gumption to. There is a sad tendency among many professing Protestants to shy away from telling Roman Catholics the hard truth. My advice to them would be to speak out - you never know when that person's time will come, and then it will be too late. I made that mistake before. I thought I could "nice" my way through it, and it only made them comfortable in their beliefs, and not see any need to change. What I should have done was just be honest with what the truth is, and hit them with it, and hopefully sear their conscience. The ones who will understand and believe, will understand and believe. The ones who won't, will likely hate you and attack you personally, like say, calling you "diabolical". Hate from the world is the price for telling the truth, just like Jesus said. There's a reason why the prophets, the disciples, the apostle Paul, and Jesus were all killed. And why those throughout history who tried to expose the errors of the Roman Catholic church also fell by the same fate.

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You have no authority to make such claims.

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Exactly what they told John the Baptist and Jesus.

You're focusing on "authority". You need to focus on whether what's being said is true.

Do I really need to be an "authority" to tell you that going to Mary for your salvation, and crediting her for it is NOT going to save you?

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You don't need authority to say Christ is the Son of God, as all Christians believe that.

You need authority when you try to interpret scripture to support your claim that practicing Catholics go to Hell, since the major thought-leaders as well as the majority of your respective sect don't even hold the same beliefs.

What denomination are you? Which church do you attend?

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My denomination and church are completely irrelevant. For all you know, I'm a "voice crying out on the Internet". What's relevant is whether what I'm saying true, or not. Judge what is being said by its own merits, not by the person who is saying them. The authority anyone can go by is Scripture. So by Scripture, how am I wrong?

And I didn't ask if one needs "authority" to say that Chist is the Son of God - I asked if one needs authority to be able to know and say that going to Mary for one's salvation, and crediting her for it will NOT save them.

And I don't think you know what "major thought-leaders" in Protestantism actually believe. Many of them agree with me. As for the laypeople in my "sect", the "majority" claim is questionable, but regardless, a majority doesn't make something correct.

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It matters because it shows that you're just a lone nut, the general consensus from your side of the aisle, including the brightest minds, is that Catholics are saved.

What's your denomination and church? Stop running from the question.

Catholics don't go to Mary for Salvation. You're a dimwit for even suggesting that we do.

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Rather, to the entire rational world, the "nut" and the "dimwit" is the person who does and believes all these things, and tells themself that it isn't worship of Mary:

• you bow down to statues and images of her, and pray to her in church
• you sing hymns to her in church
• you build and name churches for her, in her honor
• you hold hundreds of festivals yearly for her all over the world
• you have prayers which say her name ten times as much as you say God's name
• you have prayers which call her "peacemaker between sinners and God", "ruler of my house", "God of this world", "the salvation of the universe"
• you ask her to "grant that we may go to heaven" and you tell her "in your hands I place my salvation"
• you call her "Advocate", "Co-Mediatrix", "The ALL HOLY ONE"
• you believe "we can entrust ALL our cares and petitions to her"
• you "surrender 'the hour of our death' wholly to her care."
• you believe she is the "road we must travel to get to God"
• you believe that "all salvation comes only through HER"
• you believe apparitions of her that command you to make sacrifices to HER "Immaculate Heart"
• you have psalms of her, which take the Psalms of the Bible and remove God's name and put her name in its place

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Hahaha look at you scrambling, total lies.

"All salvation comes only through her" Where did you even get that? Who says that?

The Vatican officially ruled against the titles of "Co-Redemptrix" and "Co-mediatrix" titles in 2025.

The Vatican also doesn't require Catholics to believe in Apparitions.

You're a total dolt. Nothing you're saying is doctrine.

I was wondering why BustyTarp chose today to have a crash out about Mary, turns out today was the feast day of our Lady of Fatima. You can't make this stuff up….

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Did you read the post right above yours, "dolt"? There's your answer to "who says that?"
Was the Vatican's declaration about "Co-Mediatrix" an ex cathedra declaration? Is your Catechism which calls Mary that been officially been revoked?
The Vatican considers the apparitions "worthy of belief". They don't have to require it, in order to be teaching it.
I actually didn't know that today was Fatima day. Chalk that up to divine guidance that we're talking about this topic.

You're flailing. It's best to just accept the truth, instead of lash out against us for telling you the truth. Roman Catholics are worshiping Mary, and to get around it, they just change the definition of "worship". Sorry to tell you, but God is not going to buy in to your semantics.

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Same advice to Shooter, instead of playing mental gymnastics, go ask a priest. Or look it up….?

Seriously, anyone of this opinion is a low-IQ person. I'm ashamed of myself for entertaining you this long.

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Asking a priest whether he worships Mary would be like asking a post-gender-transition-surgery transgender woman whether he really is a woman. Even if there are doubts, he ain't gonna say, because he's fully invested in his decision, and there ain't no going back.

It'd also be like asking a guy who's having sex with a woman who's not his wife, whether or not he's committing adultery. And he says - "No, no, no, that wasn't "sex" (latria). She's just a friend, you can't have "sex" (latria) with a friend, you can only have "sex" (latria) with your wife. What I was doing wasn't sex, it's called hyper-friendship! (hyper-dulia).

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

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Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

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Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

---

So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

---

It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

---

That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

---

Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

---

Catholic Doctrine doesn't tell anyone to worship Mary. You're disgustingly uneducated, you've demonstrated that.

Lmao, Protestants will cry about a Church having a statue of Mary but won't think twice about wearing a sports jersey with another man's name on their back every Sunday or having signed autographs hanging in their man cave.

---

That's interesting... so you are saying that wearing a sports jersey is the same as idolatry? You really believe that?
I've worn a Spurs jersey before, but I've never bowed to it, or prayed to it asking it for blessings, not have i said prayers of thanks to it for my salvation, not have I sung songs of praise to it, not have I built a chapel in is honor.... you really have no understanding of the words "idolatry" or "worship" as they are described by God in the scriptures.

---

By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

---

I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

---

So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

---

It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

---

That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

---

Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

---

Catholic Doctrine doesn't tell anyone to worship Mary. You're disgustingly uneducated, you've demonstrated that.

Lmao, Protestants will cry about a Church having a statue of Mary but won't think twice about wearing a sports jersey with another man's name on their back every Sunday or having signed autographs hanging in their man cave.

---

That's interesting... so you are saying that wearing a sports jersey is the same as idolatry? You really believe that?
I've worn a Spurs jersey before, but I've never bowed to it, or prayed to it asking it for blessings, not have i said prayers of thanks to it for my salvation, not have I sung songs of praise to it, not have I built a chapel in is honor.... you really have no understanding of the words "idolatry" or "worship" as they are described by God in the scriptures.

---

By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

---

I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

---

I asked for doctrine because you're adamant that Catholics worship Mary, so show me where the Vatican requires us to worship her.

Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

---

Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

---

I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

---

So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

---

It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

---

That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

---

Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

---

Catholic Doctrine doesn't tell anyone to worship Mary. You're disgustingly uneducated, you've demonstrated that.

Lmao, Protestants will cry about a Church having a statue of Mary but won't think twice about wearing a sports jersey with another man's name on their back every Sunday or having signed autographs hanging in their man cave.

---

That's interesting... so you are saying that wearing a sports jersey is the same as idolatry? You really believe that?
I've worn a Spurs jersey before, but I've never bowed to it, or prayed to it asking it for blessings, not have i said prayers of thanks to it for my salvation, not have I sung songs of praise to it, not have I built a chapel in is honor.... you really have no understanding of the words "idolatry" or "worship" as they are described by God in the scriptures.

---

By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

---

I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

---

I asked for doctrine because you're adamant that Catholics worship Mary, so show me where the Vatican requires us to worship her.

Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

---

I have not used generalizations. I have given multiple examples of how Catholics worship Mary in multiple responses. I never said that it is a teaching of Catholic leadership that you must worship Mary, but it is a normal practice throughout Catholicism to engage in acts of worship of Mary.

I did say that Catholic leadership teaches that Mary is required for salvation. You said I was making that up, so I provided you with direct quotes from Vatican II that shows how the Catholic leadership does teach that Mary is required for salvation.

I'm not going to try and find evidence for a position that I never stated, but which you created and attributed to me. I never said that the worship of Mary is a doctrinal teaching, but it is a common practice. I have given examples of those common practices. Just because the Catholic leadership claims that those practices of worship are not worship, doesn't matter. In the Bible, God gives examples of idol worship and many are the same as the Catholic practices of worshipping Mary. I will choose to believe the infallible Word of God and how He describes idolatry, instead of leaning on the words of fallible men who are trying to defend their rituals & practices.

ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

---

Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

---

Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

---

Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

---

Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

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Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

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I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

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So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

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It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

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That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

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Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

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Catholic Doctrine doesn't tell anyone to worship Mary. You're disgustingly uneducated, you've demonstrated that.

Lmao, Protestants will cry about a Church having a statue of Mary but won't think twice about wearing a sports jersey with another man's name on their back every Sunday or having signed autographs hanging in their man cave.

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That's interesting... so you are saying that wearing a sports jersey is the same as idolatry? You really believe that?
I've worn a Spurs jersey before, but I've never bowed to it, or prayed to it asking it for blessings, not have i said prayers of thanks to it for my salvation, not have I sung songs of praise to it, not have I built a chapel in is honor.... you really have no understanding of the words "idolatry" or "worship" as they are described by God in the scriptures.

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

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I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

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I asked for doctrine because you're adamant that Catholics worship Mary, so show me where the Vatican requires us to worship her.

Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

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I have not used generalizations. I have given multiple examples of how Catholics worship Mary in multiple responses. I never said that it is a teaching of Catholic leadership that you must worship Mary, but it is a normal practice throughout Catholicism to engage in acts of worship of Mary.

I did say that Catholic leadership teaches that Mary is required for salvation. You said I was making that up, so I provided you with direct quotes from Vatican II that shows how the Catholic leadership does teach that Mary is required for salvation.

I'm not going to try and find evidence for a position that I never stated, but which you created and attributed to me. I never said that the worship of Mary is a doctrinal teaching, but it is a common practice. I have given examples of those common practices. Just because the Catholic leadership claims that those practices of worship are not worship, doesn't matter. In the Bible, God gives examples of idol worship and many are the same as the Catholic practices of worshipping Mary. I will choose to believe the infallible Word of God and how He describes idolatry, instead of leaning on the words of fallible men who are trying to defend their rituals & practices.

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Vatican II does not state that Mary is required for Salvation.

Your story about the Mass is a total fabrication.

You admit the worship of Mary is not a doctrinal teaching, thus it's not a Catholic belief. Thanks for playing.

Worry about your own side of the aisle. You guys have a lot of issues. There's a reason why Gen Z is flocking to us and the Orthodox.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

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I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

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Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

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So, so wrong. Roman Catholicism can be generalized, because it has a centralized ruling and teaching body that all of its adherents are obligated to follow. Therefore, they speak for all Roman Catholics. So when your popes, Doctors of the Church, catechisms, etc. all codify and promote beliefs and practices that clearly constitute worship of Mary, then that speaks for the entire Roman Catholic church body.

Protestantism has a segmented doctrinal and teaching authority by denomination. You'd have to specify which Protestant denomination or specific church or pastor teaches the prosperity gospel, women pastors, "worshiping Israel", etc.

For you to argue against "generalizing" Roman Catholics is odd, because you're saying there's no unity in your church under one authority, which is exactly what you criticize Protestants for not having.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

---

I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

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Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

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So, so wrong. Roman Catholicism can be generalized, because it has a centralized ruling and teaching body that all of its adherents are obligated to follow. Therefore, they speak for all Roman Catholics. So when your popes, Doctors of the Church, catechisms, etc. all codify and promote beliefs and practices that clearly constitute worship of Mary, then that speaks for the entire Roman Catholic church body.

Protestantism has a segmented doctrinal and teaching authority by denomination. You'd have to specify which Protestant denomination or specific church or pastor teaches the prosperity gospel, women pastors, "worshiping Israel", etc.

For you to argue against "generalizing" Roman Catholics is odd, because you're saying there's no unity in your church under one authority, which is exactly what you criticize Protestants for not having.

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I asked you what your denomination and church were but you never answered. Left me no choice but to generalize.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

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Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

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Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

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Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

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Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

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Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

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I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

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So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

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It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

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That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

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Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

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Catholic Doctrine doesn't tell anyone to worship Mary. You're disgustingly uneducated, you've demonstrated that.

Lmao, Protestants will cry about a Church having a statue of Mary but won't think twice about wearing a sports jersey with another man's name on their back every Sunday or having signed autographs hanging in their man cave.

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That's interesting... so you are saying that wearing a sports jersey is the same as idolatry? You really believe that?
I've worn a Spurs jersey before, but I've never bowed to it, or prayed to it asking it for blessings, not have i said prayers of thanks to it for my salvation, not have I sung songs of praise to it, not have I built a chapel in is honor.... you really have no understanding of the words "idolatry" or "worship" as they are described by God in the scriptures.

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

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I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

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I asked for doctrine because you're adamant that Catholics worship Mary, so show me where the Vatican requires us to worship her.

Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

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I have not used generalizations. I have given multiple examples of how Catholics worship Mary in multiple responses. I never said that it is a teaching of Catholic leadership that you must worship Mary, but it is a normal practice throughout Catholicism to engage in acts of worship of Mary.

I did say that Catholic leadership teaches that Mary is required for salvation. You said I was making that up, so I provided you with direct quotes from Vatican II that shows how the Catholic leadership does teach that Mary is required for salvation.

I'm not going to try and find evidence for a position that I never stated, but which you created and attributed to me. I never said that the worship of Mary is a doctrinal teaching, but it is a common practice. I have given examples of those common practices. Just because the Catholic leadership claims that those practices of worship are not worship, doesn't matter. In the Bible, God gives examples of idol worship and many are the same as the Catholic practices of worshipping Mary. I will choose to believe the infallible Word of God and how He describes idolatry, instead of leaning on the words of fallible men who are trying to defend their rituals & practices.

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Vatican II does not state that Mary is required for Salvation.

Your story about the Mass is a total fabrication.

You admit the worship of Mary is not a doctrinal teaching, thus it's not a Catholic belief. Thanks for playing.

Worry about your own side of the aisle. You guys have a lot of issues. There's a reason why Gen Z is flocking to us and the Orthodox.

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I'll post it here again. Maybe you should actually read it this time:

This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.

I added the bold part so you won't miss it this time. No where does the doctrinal teachings list any other source for receiving "the gifts of eternal salvation", other than Mary. So yes, the Catholic leadership does teach that Mary is necessary for salvation because they falsely teach that she is the only way to receive eternal salvation.

It is amazing how many Catholics are totally unaware of the official doctrines of the Roman Catholic church.

Since you continue to claim that I am lying about the funeral service for my Catholic in-law.... perhaps you will produce the evidence of my lying? Obviously, you must have been there to be so adamant that what I witnessed did not actually happen. So provide the evidence to support your accusations.

I only admit that the Catholic leadership has falsely redefined worship in order to claim that the worship of Mary is not actually worship. Again, if you actually read the scriptures, you will see that many of the practices of "hyper dulia" for Mary are the same as idol worship according to the Word of God.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

---

I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

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Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

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So, so wrong. Roman Catholicism can be generalized, because it has a centralized ruling and teaching body that all of its adherents are obligated to follow. Therefore, they speak for all Roman Catholics. So when your popes, Doctors of the Church, catechisms, etc. all codify and promote beliefs and practices that clearly constitute worship of Mary, then that speaks for the entire Roman Catholic church body.

Protestantism has a segmented doctrinal and teaching authority by denomination. You'd have to specify which Protestant denomination or specific church or pastor teaches the prosperity gospel, women pastors, "worshiping Israel", etc.

For you to argue against "generalizing" Roman Catholics is odd, because you're saying there's no unity in your church under one authority, which is exactly what you criticize Protestants for not having.

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I asked you what your denomination and church were but you never answered. Left me no choice but to generalize.

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Yes, I did answer. I answered that it is totally irrelevant to the truth of what was being said.

And your comment doesn't make sense. You weren't generalizing with me, you were saying that Shooter was generalizing with you. Funny how you can't keep track of the discussion, yet somehow I'm the "dolt".

And I guess this means that you concede that yes, Roman Catholics can be generalized as worshiping Mary.

ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

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Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

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Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

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Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

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Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

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Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

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I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

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So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

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It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

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That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

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Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

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Catholic Doctrine doesn't tell anyone to worship Mary. You're disgustingly uneducated, you've demonstrated that.

Lmao, Protestants will cry about a Church having a statue of Mary but won't think twice about wearing a sports jersey with another man's name on their back every Sunday or having signed autographs hanging in their man cave.

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That's interesting... so you are saying that wearing a sports jersey is the same as idolatry? You really believe that?
I've worn a Spurs jersey before, but I've never bowed to it, or prayed to it asking it for blessings, not have i said prayers of thanks to it for my salvation, not have I sung songs of praise to it, not have I built a chapel in is honor.... you really have no understanding of the words "idolatry" or "worship" as they are described by God in the scriptures.

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

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I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

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I asked for doctrine because you're adamant that Catholics worship Mary, so show me where the Vatican requires us to worship her.

Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

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I have not used generalizations. I have given multiple examples of how Catholics worship Mary in multiple responses. I never said that it is a teaching of Catholic leadership that you must worship Mary, but it is a normal practice throughout Catholicism to engage in acts of worship of Mary.

I did say that Catholic leadership teaches that Mary is required for salvation. You said I was making that up, so I provided you with direct quotes from Vatican II that shows how the Catholic leadership does teach that Mary is required for salvation.

I'm not going to try and find evidence for a position that I never stated, but which you created and attributed to me. I never said that the worship of Mary is a doctrinal teaching, but it is a common practice. I have given examples of those common practices. Just because the Catholic leadership claims that those practices of worship are not worship, doesn't matter. In the Bible, God gives examples of idol worship and many are the same as the Catholic practices of worshipping Mary. I will choose to believe the infallible Word of God and how He describes idolatry, instead of leaning on the words of fallible men who are trying to defend their rituals & practices.

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Vatican II does not state that Mary is required for Salvation.

Your story about the Mass is a total fabrication.

You admit the worship of Mary is not a doctrinal teaching, thus it's not a Catholic belief. Thanks for playing.

Worry about your own side of the aisle. You guys have a lot of issues. There's a reason why Gen Z is flocking to us and the Orthodox.

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I'll post it here again. Maybe you should actually read it this time:

This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.

I added the bold part so you won't miss it this time. No where does the doctrinal teachings list any other source for receiving "the gifts of eternal salvation", other than Mary. So yes, the Catholic leadership does teach that Mary is necessary for salvation because they falsely teach that she is the only way to receive eternal salvation.

It is amazing how many Catholics are totally unaware of the official doctrines of the Roman Catholic church.

Since you continue to claim that I am lying about the funeral service for my Catholic in-law.... perhaps you will produce the evidence of my lying? Obviously, you must have been there to be so adamant that what I witnessed did not actually happen. So provide the evidence to support your accusations.

I only admit that the Catholic leadership has falsely redefined worship in order to claim that the worship of Mary is not actually worship. Again, if you actually read the scriptures, you will see that many of the practices of "hyper dulia" for Mary are the same as idol worship according to the Word of God.

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Yes… I saw it the first time. The bolded part means she prays for believers, not granting salvation. No where does that quote even suggest that she's "necessary". I don't know where you got that.

As for the funeral, you said you attended a Catholic Funeral Mass with dozens and dozens of prayers to Mary, with more prayers to her than God. Mass is nearly identical wherever you go, so either you have a distorted memory or made it up.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Quote:

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

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I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

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Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

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So, so wrong. Roman Catholicism can be generalized, because it has a centralized ruling and teaching body that all of its adherents are obligated to follow. Therefore, they speak for all Roman Catholics. So when your popes, Doctors of the Church, catechisms, etc. all codify and promote beliefs and practices that clearly constitute worship of Mary, then that speaks for the entire Roman Catholic church body.

Protestantism has a segmented doctrinal and teaching authority by denomination. You'd have to specify which Protestant denomination or specific church or pastor teaches the prosperity gospel, women pastors, "worshiping Israel", etc.

For you to argue against "generalizing" Roman Catholics is odd, because you're saying there's no unity in your church under one authority, which is exactly what you criticize Protestants for not having.

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I asked you what your denomination and church were but you never answered. Left me no choice but to generalize.

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Yes, I did answer. I answered that it is totally irrelevant to the truth of what was being said.

And your comment doesn't make sense. You weren't generalizing with me, you were saying that Shooter was generalizing with you. Funny how you can't keep track of the discussion, yet somehow I'm the "dolt".

And I guess this means that you concede that yes, Roman Catholics can be generalized as worshiping Mary.

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Well, that's one way to run from the debate. Imagine if I answered like that to one of your questions, you'd crash out!

You made the same generalized comments that Shooter did. My comment applies to all Protestants.

And no, I did not concede anything. I've made my claim clear. But since you won't reveal your denomination and church, I will accept your concession of defeat. Peace be with you.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

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I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

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Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

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So, so wrong. Roman Catholicism can be generalized, because it has a centralized ruling and teaching body that all of its adherents are obligated to follow. Therefore, they speak for all Roman Catholics. So when your popes, Doctors of the Church, catechisms, etc. all codify and promote beliefs and practices that clearly constitute worship of Mary, then that speaks for the entire Roman Catholic church body.

Protestantism has a segmented doctrinal and teaching authority by denomination. You'd have to specify which Protestant denomination or specific church or pastor teaches the prosperity gospel, women pastors, "worshiping Israel", etc.

For you to argue against "generalizing" Roman Catholics is odd, because you're saying there's no unity in your church under one authority, which is exactly what you criticize Protestants for not having.

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I asked you what your denomination and church were but you never answered. Left me no choice but to generalize.

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Yes, I did answer. I answered that it is totally irrelevant to the truth of what was being said.

And your comment doesn't make sense. You weren't generalizing with me, you were saying that Shooter was generalizing with you. Funny how you can't keep track of the discussion, yet somehow I'm the "dolt".

And I guess this means that you concede that yes, Roman Catholics can be generalized as worshiping Mary.

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Well, that's one way to run from the debate. Imagine if I answered like that to one of your questions, you'd crash out!

You made the same generalized comments that Shooter did. My comment applies to all Protestants.

And no, I did not concede anything. I've made my claim clear. But since you won't reveal your denomination and church, I will accept your concession of defeat. Peace be with you.

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Defeat? What we're seeing is you unraveling and having to resort to self-affirming triumphalism as a cope.

I asked questions that pertained to the truth of the issue. That's different. I wasn't asking about the color of your shirt.

So you think that generalzing Roman Catholics is like generalizing Protestants? Then you are saying Roman Catholicism isn't as united and consistent as you guys keep saying, but rather that you're as divided and varied as Protestantism. Will bookmark this!

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

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Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

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Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

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Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

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Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

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Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

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I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

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So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

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It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

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That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

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Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

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Catholic Doctrine doesn't tell anyone to worship Mary. You're disgustingly uneducated, you've demonstrated that.

Lmao, Protestants will cry about a Church having a statue of Mary but won't think twice about wearing a sports jersey with another man's name on their back every Sunday or having signed autographs hanging in their man cave.

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That's interesting... so you are saying that wearing a sports jersey is the same as idolatry? You really believe that?
I've worn a Spurs jersey before, but I've never bowed to it, or prayed to it asking it for blessings, not have i said prayers of thanks to it for my salvation, not have I sung songs of praise to it, not have I built a chapel in is honor.... you really have no understanding of the words "idolatry" or "worship" as they are described by God in the scriptures.

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

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I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

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I asked for doctrine because you're adamant that Catholics worship Mary, so show me where the Vatican requires us to worship her.

Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

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Dont protestant Christians essentially do all those things? Hard to generalize a protestant Christian i know as it depends on what thwir for profit preacher came up with that week from church to church

ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

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Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

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Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

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Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

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Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

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Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

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I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

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So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

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It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

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That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

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Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

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Catholic Doctrine doesn't tell anyone to worship Mary. You're disgustingly uneducated, you've demonstrated that.

Lmao, Protestants will cry about a Church having a statue of Mary but won't think twice about wearing a sports jersey with another man's name on their back every Sunday or having signed autographs hanging in their man cave.

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That's interesting... so you are saying that wearing a sports jersey is the same as idolatry? You really believe that?
I've worn a Spurs jersey before, but I've never bowed to it, or prayed to it asking it for blessings, not have i said prayers of thanks to it for my salvation, not have I sung songs of praise to it, not have I built a chapel in is honor.... you really have no understanding of the words "idolatry" or "worship" as they are described by God in the scriptures.

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

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I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

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I asked for doctrine because you're adamant that Catholics worship Mary, so show me where the Vatican requires us to worship her.

Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

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I have not used generalizations. I have given multiple examples of how Catholics worship Mary in multiple responses. I never said that it is a teaching of Catholic leadership that you must worship Mary, but it is a normal practice throughout Catholicism to engage in acts of worship of Mary.

I did say that Catholic leadership teaches that Mary is required for salvation. You said I was making that up, so I provided you with direct quotes from Vatican II that shows how the Catholic leadership does teach that Mary is required for salvation.

I'm not going to try and find evidence for a position that I never stated, but which you created and attributed to me. I never said that the worship of Mary is a doctrinal teaching, but it is a common practice. I have given examples of those common practices. Just because the Catholic leadership claims that those practices of worship are not worship, doesn't matter. In the Bible, God gives examples of idol worship and many are the same as the Catholic practices of worshipping Mary. I will choose to believe the infallible Word of God and how He describes idolatry, instead of leaning on the words of fallible men who are trying to defend their rituals & practices.

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Always entertaining watching the protestant Christian sect hyperventilate over the hyperdulias. Not sure about any of the quotes but you clearly are misinformed if you think a flatulence from a Pope is doctrine of the church.

Try harder.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

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I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

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Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

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So, so wrong. Roman Catholicism can be generalized, because it has a centralized ruling and teaching body that all of its adherents are obligated to follow. Therefore, they speak for all Roman Catholics. So when your popes, Doctors of the Church, catechisms, etc. all codify and promote beliefs and practices that clearly constitute worship of Mary, then that speaks for the entire Roman Catholic church body.

Protestantism has a segmented doctrinal and teaching authority by denomination. You'd have to specify which Protestant denomination or specific church or pastor teaches the prosperity gospel, women pastors, "worshiping Israel", etc.

For you to argue against "generalizing" Roman Catholics is odd, because you're saying there's no unity in your church under one authority, which is exactly what you criticize Protestants for not having.

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I asked you what your denomination and church were but you never answered. Left me no choice but to generalize.

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Guess and youve got a 1 in 45,000 chance of being right. They have lots of religions to choose from.

ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Protestants seething with rage on a daily basis because Catholics exist"

Now that's some serious projection.

I'd wager Protestants hate Roman Catholics, Orthodox, or other denominations 'because they exist' in roughly the same proportion of Roman Catholics, Orthodox or what have you hate Protestants simply for existing.

Which is to say, I dispute your claim that this is a common thing at all.

We are on an Internet forum, of course, where such extreme and unsupported claims are very common, so I have to say it's far from unexpected.

I do find it odd that so many people who believe in the same Christ and use the same Scriptures for most doctrinal positions, would attack each other for trivia and emotional speedbumps, rather than form consensus against the rise of atheism, materialism, paganism, genuine cults like the Scientologists or FLDS.

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Some Catholics have a superiority complex. But from what I've seen, most Catholics here tend to stay pretty quiet and will engage respectfully in debate unless they're provoked.

Most Protestants here are delightful too, but there's a group that can be incredibly aggressive, like BustyTarps' recent two-week tirade.

Going back to Shooter's comment, I have never seen any Catholic on this board, or in real life, mock anyone for studying the Bible.

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Roman Catholic definition of "delightful" and "respectful" - when someone chooses to not point out their Church's damnable errors that are leading them to destruction.

Roman Catholic definition of "tirade" - when someone confronts their errors directly, and does it effectively, giving them at least a chance to see their errors and avoid destruction.

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Most Protestants typically agree that Salvation is a gift received through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in faith and works. Since we satisfy the "faith" requirement, which is what you people deem necessary for Salvation, there is nothing for you to worry about.

According to YOUR religion, my faith in Christ has saved me from "destruction".

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Maybe, sure. I've never said that someone who calls themself a Roman Catholic isn't saved. What I've always said is that if a Roman Catholic is saved, it's in spite of your Church's teachings, not because of them. I will bet their are indeed Roman Catholics who are ignorant of their Church's teachings, which is a blessing for them, ironically. They believe only in the simple gospel, and so they are saved. But I contend, and will always contend, though, that if they were shown all the heretical and idolatrous things about Mary, IF they are truly saved, then they will agree that it is wrong and evil. If they do NOT see what's wrong with it, however, I truly believe it means they aren't truly saved. It means the Holy Spirit is not in them.

About "faith and works" - if one believes that their faith PLUS their works achieves their salvation, then that is NOT the faith that saves. So it's NOT meeting the "faith requirement". It's a rejection of the gospel, a gift of God that we receive solely through faith, not by our works, so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:9). Grace is no longer grace when one adds works. (Romans 11:6) They are not fully trusting in the completed work of Jesus to save them, they are also trusting in their own works.

In addition, if one believes in purgatory, then one is rejecting that Jesus fully paid for all their sins. They are believing that there is some payment left over for them to pay themselves. This too is a rejection of the gospel. If one believes the mass is a propitiatory sacrifice, then they are rejecting the finished work of Jesus, who paid for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That's also a rejection of the gospel. If one believes that one has to go through Mary to be saved, then that clearly is a heretical, idolatrous rejection of the gospel. And it doesn't end there.

So as you can see (hopefully), there is a whole lot that stands in the way between Roman Catholicism and salvation. You shouldn't be concerned with what I'M worried about, you have plenty to worry about for yourself. You need to understand that if you believe in all these things, or even just a part of them, then your "faith" isn't really faith.

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Do our other Protestants hold this view that practicing Catholics are damned?

You sir, are diabolic. I pray you have a change of heart before it's too late.

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I don't believe that all Catholics are damned. I don't think he does either. As he said, there are some folks in the catholic church who reject the false teachings of the Vatican.
However if you believe that your works are part of your salvation of that you need grace from the treasury of merit or that you need Mary for salvation... then that is not a saving faith according to the Word of God.
The scriptures are very clear that if anyone adds requirements to the Gospel, then it is a false gospel and they are condemned for it.

If that makes you angry or upset, then i strongly suggest you read the scriptures and study them so you can understand the teachings of Jesus and be saved by true faith in Christ alone.

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So you admit that you believe Catholics think they "need" Mary for salvation. In doing so, you've demonstrated you are disgustingly ignorant about Catholic teaching, or you have a willingness to spread malicious falsehoods about it. If it's the latter, may Christ have mercy on you.

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It's kind of surprising how many Catholics are unaware of the teachings of the church leadership. Here is a direct quote from Vatican II on Mary, " This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." They are literally saying that Mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation. They do not offer any other way of receiving the "gifts of salvation", but through Mary. So yes, the Catholics teach that you do "need" Mary for salvation.

Here is a link to the entire Dogmatic Constitution from Vatican II, so you can read it and educate yourself on the teachings of the Roman Catholic church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

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That's not what that means... Next time you go visit your in-law's church, ask the priest if Catholics worship Mary. Or ya know, look it up on Google?

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Yes. Ive already done this. I've heard the explanation of how Catholics worship of Mary is not worship. It's very weak.
If you actually read the scriptures you will see that God condemns people for idolatry and the descriptions include bowing to statues & graven images, making sacrifices, and praying to idols.... all the same things that Catholics do with Mary. Its very sad how Catholics have turned an honored woman into an idol... very sad.

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Catholic Doctrine doesn't tell anyone to worship Mary. You're disgustingly uneducated, you've demonstrated that.

Lmao, Protestants will cry about a Church having a statue of Mary but won't think twice about wearing a sports jersey with another man's name on their back every Sunday or having signed autographs hanging in their man cave.

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That's interesting... so you are saying that wearing a sports jersey is the same as idolatry? You really believe that?
I've worn a Spurs jersey before, but I've never bowed to it, or prayed to it asking it for blessings, not have i said prayers of thanks to it for my salvation, not have I sung songs of praise to it, not have I built a chapel in is honor.... you really have no understanding of the words "idolatry" or "worship" as they are described by God in the scriptures.

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By your definition, you're riding an awfully thin line.

Now, I asked you to show me doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. Can you do that instead of fabricating more generalizations?

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I don't have a definition for idolatry, other than what is clearly defined in the Bible. For this reason, I do not sing songs of praise or worship to anyone or anything other than God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not bow down to any graven images (statues or other forms). I do not make sacrifices or give offerings to anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do not have buildings of worship in the honor of anyone other than God. I do not pray to anyone other than God. I do not give thanks for salvation to anyone other than God. I do not ask for Gods blessings from anyone other than God Himself. I do not assign the qualities or attributes of God to anyone else, such as Mediatrix, Redemptrix, Advocate, etc.

I am not on a thin line.... and if you are doing any of these things with Mary, then you are not on a thin line but have fully crossed that line.

Now, why are you asking me to show you a doctrine requiring Catholics to worship Mary. I never made the claim that Catholics are required to worship Mary by Catholic doctrinal statments. I simply stated that Catholics engage in worship of Mary. I have given examples of how they engage in this worship, and have admitted that Catholics claim that all of these forms of worship of Mary are not actual worship but are just honoring her. It is a word game by the Catholic leaders.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the scriptures you will see examples of people being condemned for idolatry for bowing to statues & graven images, praying to someone or something other than the one true God, making sacrifices & offerings other than to the one true God. You will also read that they built temples and shrines to these false gods. They were condemned for praying to and making offerings to the "queen of heaven".

Again, these are not my words, definitions or descriptions but they are from God and His scriptures. If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with God and not me.

Also, what generalizations are you claiming that I fabricated?

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I asked for doctrine because you're adamant that Catholics worship Mary, so show me where the Vatican requires us to worship her.

Saying "Catholics worship Mary" is a total generalization. It's like me saying "Protestants teach prosperity gospel", "Protestants have woman pastors", or "Protestants worship Israel"

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I have not used generalizations. I have given multiple examples of how Catholics worship Mary in multiple responses. I never said that it is a teaching of Catholic leadership that you must worship Mary, but it is a normal practice throughout Catholicism to engage in acts of worship of Mary.

I did say that Catholic leadership teaches that Mary is required for salvation. You said I was making that up, so I provided you with direct quotes from Vatican II that shows how the Catholic leadership does teach that Mary is required for salvation.

I'm not going to try and find evidence for a position that I never stated, but which you created and attributed to me. I never said that the worship of Mary is a doctrinal teaching, but it is a common practice. I have given examples of those common practices. Just because the Catholic leadership claims that those practices of worship are not worship, doesn't matter. In the Bible, God gives examples of idol worship and many are the same as the Catholic practices of worshipping Mary. I will choose to believe the infallible Word of God and how He describes idolatry, instead of leaning on the words of fallible men who are trying to defend their rituals & practices.

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Vatican II does not state that Mary is required for Salvation.

Your story about the Mass is a total fabrication.

You admit the worship of Mary is not a doctrinal teaching, thus it's not a Catholic belief. Thanks for playing.

Worry about your own side of the aisle. You guys have a lot of issues. There's a reason why Gen Z is flocking to us and the Orthodox.

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I'll post it here again. Maybe you should actually read it this time:

This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.

I added the bold part so you won't miss it this time. No where does the doctrinal teachings list any other source for receiving "the gifts of eternal salvation", other than Mary. So yes, the Catholic leadership does teach that Mary is necessary for salvation because they falsely teach that she is the only way to receive eternal salvation.

It is amazing how many Catholics are totally unaware of the official doctrines of the Roman Catholic church.

Since you continue to claim that I am lying about the funeral service for my Catholic in-law.... perhaps you will produce the evidence of my lying? Obviously, you must have been there to be so adamant that what I witnessed did not actually happen. So provide the evidence to support your accusations.

I only admit that the Catholic leadership has falsely redefined worship in order to claim that the worship of Mary is not actually worship. Again, if you actually read the scriptures, you will see that many of the practices of "hyper dulia" for Mary are the same as idol worship according to the Word of God.

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Sunce the beginning of time there is no worship without the sacrifice. That's why it's widely known protestant Christian's attend a weekly Bible study, should they choose to attend. A coffee and a talk about Jesus ostensibly.

Just say one time at age 8 "i believe" and youre saved forever and can never lose that salvation. Give me money

Sounds very enticing to be so simple. I wonder why the 12 didnt just move on and chillax instead of 11 of them being brutally murdered for thwir trouble.

" Guess and youve got a 1 in 45,000 chance of being right. They have lots of religions to choose from."

I guess from that post that lying is not a sin in your opinion?

Oldbear83 said:

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" Guess and youve got a 1 in 45,000 chance of being right. They have lots of religions to choose from."

I guess from that post that lying is not a sin in your opinion?

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If course itnis. The Catholic Church has taught that since its founding.

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Guess and youve got a 1 in 45,000 chance of being right. They have lots of religions to choose from."

I guess from that post that lying is not a sin in your opinion?

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If course itnis. The Catholic Church has taught that since its founding.

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Then why are you pushing the lie that Protestants believe in '45,000 religions'?

Just wrapped up Ascension Thursday Mass, we didn't worship Mary. I must've been at one of those fake Catholic Churches

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Guess and youve got a 1 in 45,000 chance of being right. They have lots of religions to choose from."

I guess from that post that lying is not a sin in your opinion?

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If course itnis. The Catholic Church has taught that since its founding.

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Then why are you pushing the lie that Protestants believe in '45,000 religions'?

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I dont make the facts. I just report them. It's what happens when you join a schism which the a Bible warns against

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Just wrapped up Ascension Thursday Mass, we didn't worship Mary. I must've been at one of those fake Catholic Churches

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Likely. Find new churxh.

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Guess and youve got a 1 in 45,000 chance of being right. They have lots of religions to choose from."

I guess from that post that lying is not a sin in your opinion?

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If course itnis. The Catholic Church has taught that since its founding.

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Then why are you pushing the lie that Protestants believe in '45,000 religions'?

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I dont make the facts. I just report them. It's what happens when you join a schism which the a Bible warns against

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Protestants are Christians.

Not sure why you seem to want to claim otherwise ("lots of religions to choose from")

We already have a guy on the P-side whose efforts are almost completely focused on insults and attacks on other Christians. You sure you want to be his counterpart on the Roman side?

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Guess and youve got a 1 in 45,000 chance of being right. They have lots of religions to choose from."

I guess from that post that lying is not a sin in your opinion?

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If course itnis. The Catholic Church has taught that since its founding.

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Then why are you pushing the lie that Protestants believe in '45,000 religions'?

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I dont make the facts. I just report them. It's what happens when you join a schism which the a Bible warns against

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Protestants are Christians.

Not sure why you seem to want to claim otherwise ("lots of religions to choose from")

We already have a guy on the P-side whose efforts are almost completely focused on insults and attacks on other Christians. You sure you want to be his counterpart on the Roman side?

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I think Ive stated that numerous times. Catholicism started and existed for 16 centuries and then groups splintered off to observe different "new" perspectives. Now theres 45,000 documented versions of that they say.

Id have no way of knowing how one chooses which to align with.

Just apologize for being an ass. Bad look to keep repeating the lie.

Oldbear83 said:

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Just apologize for being an ass. Bad look to keep repeating the lie.

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You appear to be showing yours yet again. Like when that other poster lost his or her mind for all to see.

If you disagree you should take it up with those that count such things. Not for Catholics to defend.

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" Guess and youve got a 1 in 45,000 chance of being right. They have lots of religions to choose from."

I guess from that post that lying is not a sin in your opinion?

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If course itnis. The Catholic Church has taught that since its founding.

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Then why are you pushing the lie that Protestants believe in '45,000 religions'?

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I dont make the facts. I just report them. It's what happens when you join a schism which the a Bible warns against

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Protestants are Christians.

Not sure why you seem to want to claim otherwise ("lots of religions to choose from")

We already have a guy on the P-side whose efforts are almost completely focused on insults and attacks on other Christians. You sure you want to be his counterpart on the Roman side?

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I think Ive stated that numerous times. Catholicism started and existed for 16 centuries and then groups splintered off to observe different "new" perspectives. Now theres 45,000 documented versions of that they say.

Id have no way of knowing how one chooses which to align with.

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the Holy Spirit told me it was the 35,483rd version because he really enjoys the rodeo clowns that take the offering

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Just apologize for being an ass. Bad look to keep repeating the lie.

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You appear to be showing yours yet again. Like when that other poster lost his or her mind for all to see.

If you disagree you should take it up with those that count such things. Not for Catholics to defend.

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I'm not repeating the lie that Protestants believe in 45,000 different religions. That's you.

You really should retract that slander.

Or do you want us to think you are the Roman Pharisee here?

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Just apologize for being an ass. Bad look to keep repeating the lie.

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You appear to be showing yours yet again. Like when that other poster lost his or her mind for all to see.

If you disagree you should take it up with those that count such things. Not for Catholics to defend.

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I'm not repeating the lie that Protestants believe in 45,000 different religions. That's you.

You really should retract that slander.

Or do you want us to think you are the Roman Pharisee here?

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In 2023, the Center for the Study of Global Christianity determined that there were over 45,000 worldwide Christian denominations and organizations..

He didnt make it up, he just repeated something off Christianity.com

Look at what he wrote. Said Protestants had a lot of "religions" to choose from.

And that's a lie.

Oldbear83 said:

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Look at what he wrote. Said Protestants had a lot of "religions" to choose from.

And that's a lie.

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he orignally said 45000 "versions" post schism to choose from

Maybe he said religions later

4th and Inches said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Look at what he wrote. Said Protestants had a lot of "religions" to choose from.

And that's a lie.

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he orignally said 45000 "versions" post schism to choose from

Maybe he said religions later

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Check his 4:35 post.

ShooterTX said:

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Not exactly.

It may appear as if most Protestants believe that Catholics are saved, but that is only because most Protestants are ignorant of what the catholic church teaches about salvation, dispensing of grace, the treasury of merit, etc.

For years I had no idea what was going on in Catholicism. Then I attended a catholic funeral mass for an in-law, and was shocked by what they were doing & teaching. Dozens & dozens of prayers to Mary and only a handful of prayers to God. I had many discussions with the catholic side of the family afterwards, and they recommended i read the Catechisms of the church if I wanted to know what the church teaches.

It was a very sad & shocking revelation that so many are being lead into such a false religion.

Very sad

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I've been to countless Catholic funeral masses and never have I heard "dozens and dozens of prayers to Mary."

You were most likely at a Rosary for your in-law. These are usually held the night before the actual funeral mass.

If you're not familiar with the Rosary, I'd provide a slight bit of history behind it.

Monks and clergy used to recite or chant the 150 Psalms every day for worship. People living near the monasteries and abbeys saw the beauty in this devotion; however, they were unable to read or memorize the lengthy Psalms so it was suggested that they pray the Lord's Prayer 150 time in place of the Psalms.

By the 8th Century, the Celtic Church in Gaelic Ireland created Pater Noster (Our Father in Latin) Cords with 150 knots or with 50 knots and they could pray it three times.

By the 12th century, the Angelic Salutation (Luke 1:28 - Annunciation & 1:42 Visitation)- Ave Maria or Hail Mary had become popular and the second devotion began.

By the early 13th century, St Dominic, who founded the Dominicans in order to battle the Albigensian Crisis, as tradition states saw a vision of the Blessed Mother who instructed him on the structure of the Rosary that we have today.

The Rosary starts with The Apostles Creed, Our Father, three Hail Mary's (offered for faith, hope, & love), and the Gloria Patri (Latin for "Glory to the Father") or the Lesser Doxology (or Minor Doxology).

Next the Rosary is divided into 5 decades which include 1 Our Father, 10 Hail Mary's, and the Glory Be.

There are three Mysteries (now 4, but that's a different story) that are part of the original Rosary - The Glorious, Joyful, and the Sorrowful (my personal favorite).

Praying all three Mysteries (5 decades each) equals 150 Hail Mary's.

Each Mystery have 5 "points" that we are to concentrate or meditate on while saying that decade.

For instance, during the Joyful Mysteries, we focus on the following during each decade:
The Annunciation of the Angel Gabriel to Mary.
The Visitation of Mary to Elizabeth.
The Birth of Jesus in Bethlehem of Judea.
The Presentation of Jesus in the Temple.
The Finding of Jesus in the Temple.

• The Annunciation - Humility. The Angel Gabriel announces to Mary that she will conceive Jesus (Luke 1:26-38).
• The Visitation - Charity (Love of Neighbor). Mary visits her cousin Elizabeth, who is pregnant with John the Baptist (Luke 1:39-56).
• The Nativity - Poverty of Spirit (Detachment). Jesus is born in Bethlehem (Luke 2:1-20).
• The Presentation in the Temple - Obedience. Mary and Joseph present the baby Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:22-40).
• The Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple - Piety. Mary and Joseph find the 12-year-old Jesus teaching in the Temple (Luke 2:41-50).

The Sorrowful Mysteries we focus on:

• The Agony in the Garden - Contrition (Sorrow for Sin). Jesus prays in the Garden of Gethsemane, experiencing great sorrow (Matthew 26:36-46).
• The Scourging at the Pillar - Mortification (Self-Discipline). Jesus is brutally whipped at Pilate's command (John 19:1).
• The Crowning with Thorns - Moral Courage. Soldiers mock Jesus by placing a crown of thorns on His head (Matthew 27:29).
• The Carrying of the Cross - Patience in Suffering. Jesus carries His cross to Calvary (John 19:17).
• The Crucifixion and Death of Jesus - Perseverance and Mercy. Jesus is nailed to the cross and dies for our sins (Luke 23:33-46).

The beautiful part about this is one can enter so deeply into Christ's life during the Rosary. You can imagine what it would be like to be watching these events. You can imagine yourself as anyone in this story. Your mind can color what we read in scripture. That's how we are to pray the Rosary.

TL;DR, no Catholic funeral has "dozens and dozens of prayers to Mary." The rosary does have prayers to Mary, but when we listen closely, we realize that they are Christocentric.

Finally, I'm sorry that your family didn't have specific answers to your questions. Not all Catholics are prepared to answer these questions, just like not all protestants can answer questions from atheists.

If you ever have serious questions (issues, challenges, or objections) about Catholicism, please PM me. I will do my best to answer your questions. If I don't know an answer, I know people that will.

Finally, if you're ever in Waco and wanted to discuss these issues, I'd be happy to meet you at George's and enjoy a few beers (beverages.)