The case for the Shroud of Turin and Our Lady of Guadalupe

22,412 Views | 465 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by 4th and Inches
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
4th and Inches said:

Sam Lowry said:

All people are called. Jesus did not preach a Gospel of despair.

"He calls upon all men, everywhere, to repent, because he has fixed a day when he will pronounce just judgement on the whole world." Acts 17:30-31

"The Lord is not being dilatory over his promise, as some think; he is only giving you more time, because his will is that all of you should attain repentance, not that some should be lost." 2 Peter 3:9



In no sense does 2 Peter 3:9 contradict the idea that God elects certain people to salvation. First, in context, election is not at all what the verse is talking about. Second, to interpret "not willing that any should perish" as "does not allow any to perish" results in the false doctrine of universalism. But God can "not desire" anyone to perish and still only elect some to salvation. There is nothing incongruous about that. God did not desire for sin to enter the world through the fall of Adam and Eve, yet He allowed it. God did not desire His only begotten Son to be betrayed, brutally tortured, and murdered, yet He allowed it.

In the same way, God does not desire anyone to perish. He desires all to come to repentance. At the same time, God recognizes that not everyone will come to repentance. It is undeniable that many will perish (Matthew 7:1314). Rather than being a contradiction to 2 Peter 3:9, God's electing and drawing of some to salvation is evidence that He truly does not desire people to perish. Were it not for election and the effectual calling of God, everyone would perish (John 6:44; Romans 8:2930).

I don't think anyone denies that some are allowed to perish. But to say not all are called is to negate God's desire. Nothing could be worse than to tell a sinner (and we're all sinners) that he is not called to repentance.
4th and Inches
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

4th and Inches said:

Sam Lowry said:

All people are called. Jesus did not preach a Gospel of despair.

"He calls upon all men, everywhere, to repent, because he has fixed a day when he will pronounce just judgement on the whole world." Acts 17:30-31

"The Lord is not being dilatory over his promise, as some think; he is only giving you more time, because his will is that all of you should attain repentance, not that some should be lost." 2 Peter 3:9



In no sense does 2 Peter 3:9 contradict the idea that God elects certain people to salvation. First, in context, election is not at all what the verse is talking about. Second, to interpret "not willing that any should perish" as "does not allow any to perish" results in the false doctrine of universalism. But God can "not desire" anyone to perish and still only elect some to salvation. There is nothing incongruous about that. God did not desire for sin to enter the world through the fall of Adam and Eve, yet He allowed it. God did not desire His only begotten Son to be betrayed, brutally tortured, and murdered, yet He allowed it.

In the same way, God does not desire anyone to perish. He desires all to come to repentance. At the same time, God recognizes that not everyone will come to repentance. It is undeniable that many will perish (Matthew 7:1314). Rather than being a contradiction to 2 Peter 3:9, God's electing and drawing of some to salvation is evidence that He truly does not desire people to perish. Were it not for election and the effectual calling of God, everyone would perish (John 6:44; Romans 8:2930).

I don't think anyone denies that some are allowed to perish. But to say not all are called is to negate God's desire. Nothing could be worse than to tell a sinner (and we're all sinners) that he is not called to repentance.

We have given him the gospel, he has rejected it wholeheartedly. as followers of Christ, we are the sowers of seed. In every situation, we offer the peace of Christ.

Many people hear the call of God coming through His revelation of Himself through creation, the conscience, and the preaching of the Word. But only the "few" will respond because they are the ones who are truly hearing. Jesus said many times, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear" (Matthew 11:15; Mark 4:9; Luke 8:8, 14:35). The point is that everyone has ears, but only a few are listening and responding. Not everyone who hears the gospel receives it but only the "few" who have ears to hear. The "many" hear, but there is no interest or there is outright antagonism toward God. Many are called or invited into the kingdom, but none are able to come on their own. God must draw the hearts of those who come; otherwise they will not (John 6:44).
TexasScientist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

anSo how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

First, I cannot help but notice you completely ignored my posts which focused specifically on the scientific debate. You have always crowed how Science admits when it is wrong and makes corrections; well sir there are quite a few scientists who dispute the testing methodology and the actual age of the Shroud, with real evidence for it's 1st Century creation out there. If you want to be a real scientist, you should

I also note that you continue to ignore the fact that no one has been able to recreate the thing. You toss out claims that it's a fraud, yet if that is so it's a very strange fraud, one no one has been able to duplicate, and among other things even the medieval date you prefer predates the invention of photography and 3-dimensional imaging by several centuries. Make one or show someone who made one using the technology of the 14th century and you have something, but for now your argument is specious by definition.

Finally, you might consider that I raised questions you could have used with validity, but I won't bring them up here because I really do think you should consider the long post with links that more than answers your continued unsupported claims.




I gave you a thorough analyis and examintation of the claims about the shroud, addressing the the science, and a refutation of your claims, point by point, that you obviously have ingnored.

If the claims about the shroud were true, the god of Christianity would want to proclaim "truth" to the world. And, certainly, if it were true, the Church would have it thoroughly examined, and proclaimed in support of the '"truth" and the "Church."

If the Church believed it to be real, to which it will not stipulate, it wouldn't hide behind keeping it secret. Perhaps they found it in the Talpiot Tomb?



If you really want an honest talk, address my post with all the links.

Right now you are 2 notches below Jerry Springer.

The post link I gave you addresses them in detail.

Nope.

I gave a detailed explanation in my own words with supporting links.

You either won't or cannot do as much, it appears.

I doncan't provide evidence for my claims need summarize something that but still expect should be easy for you to accept them anyway follow.

Corrected.

REAL scientists follow the evidence.

That's why I posted an easy link to a summary of everthing you need to know about the shroud. Go watch it. You'll learn something.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Fre3dombear said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

So how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

First, I cannot help but notice you completely ignored my posts which focused specifically on the scientific debate. You have always crowed how Science admits when it is wrong and makes corrections; well sir there are quite a few scientists who dispute the testing methodology and the actual age of the Shroud, with real evidence for it's 1st Century creation out there. If you want to be a real scientist, you should

I also note that you continue to ignore the fact that no one has been able to recreate the thing. You toss out claims that it's a fraud, yet if that is so it's a very strange fraud, one no one has been able to duplicate, and among other things even the medieval date you prefer predates the invention of photography and 3-dimensional imaging by several centuries. Make one or show someone who made one using the technology of the 14th century and you have something, but for now your argument is specious by definition.

Finally, you might consider that I raised questions you could have used with validity, but I won't bring them up here because I really do think you should consider the long post with links that more than answers your continued unsupported claims.




I gave you a thorough analyis and examintation of the claims about the shroud, addressing the the science, and a refutation of your claims, point by point, that you obviously have ingnored.

If the claims about the shroud were true, the god of Christianity would want to proclaim "truth" to the world. And, certainly, if it were true, the Church would have it thoroughly examined, and proclaimed in support of the '"truth" and the "Church."

If the Church believed it to be real, to which it will not stipulate, it wouldn't hide behind keeping it secret. Perhaps they found it in the Talpiot Tomb?




It's secret? We know exactly where it is. It's been on display countless times. Why havent all the non believers ever been able to Replicate it to disprove the facts science has conveyed to us about its authenticity?

Our evidence exists. Yours, does not.

If you can produce a replica etc i will consider your position to have validity. Until then….believe and have faith and be saved.

There is no evidence that links it to Jesus. Why won't the Church allow it to be thoroughly examined and tested? The evidence that is available indicates it is not what it is proclaimed to be.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
Coke Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TexasScientist said:


There is no evidence that links it to Jesus. Why won't the Church allow it to be thoroughly examined and tested? The evidence that is available indicates it is not what it is proclaimed to be.
What was wrong with the 120 consecutive hours of examination by the STURP team in 1978.


The Church has also allowed the studying of the materials from the cleaning in 2000.

Scientists are still studying the findings and results.
Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

anSo how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

First, I cannot help but notice you completely ignored my posts which focused specifically on the scientific debate. You have always crowed how Science admits when it is wrong and makes corrections; well sir there are quite a few scientists who dispute the testing methodology and the actual age of the Shroud, with real evidence for it's 1st Century creation out there. If you want to be a real scientist, you should

I also note that you continue to ignore the fact that no one has been able to recreate the thing. You toss out claims that it's a fraud, yet if that is so it's a very strange fraud, one no one has been able to duplicate, and among other things even the medieval date you prefer predates the invention of photography and 3-dimensional imaging by several centuries. Make one or show someone who made one using the technology of the 14th century and you have something, but for now your argument is specious by definition.

Finally, you might consider that I raised questions you could have used with validity, but I won't bring them up here because I really do think you should consider the long post with links that more than answers your continued unsupported claims.




I gave you a thorough analyis and examintation of the claims about the shroud, addressing the the science, and a refutation of your claims, point by point, that you obviously have ingnored.

If the claims about the shroud were true, the god of Christianity would want to proclaim "truth" to the world. And, certainly, if it were true, the Church would have it thoroughly examined, and proclaimed in support of the '"truth" and the "Church."

If the Church believed it to be real, to which it will not stipulate, it wouldn't hide behind keeping it secret. Perhaps they found it in the Talpiot Tomb?



If you really want an honest talk, address my post with all the links.

Right now you are 2 notches below Jerry Springer.

The post link I gave you addresses them in detail.

Nope.

I gave a detailed explanation in my own words with supporting links.

You either won't or cannot do as much, it appears.

I doncan't provide evidence for my claims need summarize something that but still expect should be easy for you to accept them anyway follow.

Corrected.

REAL scientists follow the evidence.

That's why I posted an easy link to a summary of everthing you need to know about the shroud. Go watch it. You'll learn something.

What I learned from it, is that you quickly abandon Science when you find a target to mock.

You cannot replicate the shroud. Until you do, there is no Science at all on your side.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
TexasScientist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Coke Bear said:

TexasScientist said:


Make it available for thorough scientific examination, then replication can be addressed if needed. Otherwise, it is just another relic collected like so many others when it was trendy for the Church to trade in "relics."

Were the 30 scientists from around the world that studied the Shroud for 120 consecutive hours in 1978 not enough for you?

What more tests would you like?

Having said that, many Shroud enthusiasts would like more testing. When the time and technology is right, the Pope will allow it again.

Why did those men and women state in their finding that they still don't know how it was made, but it was indeed the burial cloth of a crucified man?

Why did many atheistic and agnostic scientists convert to Christianity after studying the Shroud?


The resutls were at best inconclusive. The Church is refusing to submit it to more advanceds testing.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Coke Bear said:

TexasScientist said:


There is no evidence that links it to Jesus. Why won't the Church allow it to be thoroughly examined and tested? The evidence that is available indicates it is not what it is proclaimed to be.

What was wrong with the 120 consecutive hours of examination by the STURP team in 1978.


The Church has also allowed the studying of the materials from the cleaning in 2000.

Scientists are still studying the findings and results.

Watch the video link I gave you. It goes through all of that, item by item.

Here's another link: https://www.shroud.com/bar.htm
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

anSo how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

First, I cannot help but notice you completely ignored my posts which focused specifically on the scientific debate. You have always crowed how Science admits when it is wrong and makes corrections; well sir there are quite a few scientists who dispute the testing methodology and the actual age of the Shroud, with real evidence for it's 1st Century creation out there. If you want to be a real scientist, you should

I also note that you continue to ignore the fact that no one has been able to recreate the thing. You toss out claims that it's a fraud, yet if that is so it's a very strange fraud, one no one has been able to duplicate, and among other things even the medieval date you prefer predates the invention of photography and 3-dimensional imaging by several centuries. Make one or show someone who made one using the technology of the 14th century and you have something, but for now your argument is specious by definition.

Finally, you might consider that I raised questions you could have used with validity, but I won't bring them up here because I really do think you should consider the long post with links that more than answers your continued unsupported claims.




I gave you a thorough analyis and examintation of the claims about the shroud, addressing the the science, and a refutation of your claims, point by point, that you obviously have ingnored.

If the claims about the shroud were true, the god of Christianity would want to proclaim "truth" to the world. And, certainly, if it were true, the Church would have it thoroughly examined, and proclaimed in support of the '"truth" and the "Church."

If the Church believed it to be real, to which it will not stipulate, it wouldn't hide behind keeping it secret. Perhaps they found it in the Talpiot Tomb?



If you really want an honest talk, address my post with all the links.

Right now you are 2 notches below Jerry Springer.

The post link I gave you addresses them in detail.

Nope.

I gave a detailed explanation in my own words with supporting links.

You either won't or cannot do as much, it appears.

I doncan't provide evidence for my claims need summarize something that but still expect should be easy for you to accept them anyway follow.

Corrected.

REAL scientists follow the evidence.

That's why I posted an easy link to a summary of everthing you need to know about the shroud. Go watch it. You'll learn something.

What I learned from it, is that you quickly abandon Science when you find a target to mock.

You cannot replicate the shroud. Until you do, there is no Science at all on your side.

What is the purpose of replicating it? It was already determined to be a medieval artifact, by carbon 14 dating and church records. A modern scientific analysis will tell us what it is or is not. The Church should offer it for more advanced testing. Maybe it came out of the Talpiot tomb.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Catchy answer for those who prefer following primitive ignorance, unable to cope wiith the reality of their mortality.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
4th and Inches
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TexasScientist said:

Catchy answer for those who prefer following primitive ignorance, unable to cope wiith the reality of their mortality.
If being at peace with the death of my mortal flesh is what I am struggling to cope with, why am I 100% cool with it. Already have my funeral plans made. I have no fear.

You seem to be the one who is struggling a bit. I will pray for your awakening.
Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

, anSo how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

First, I cannot help but notice you completely ignored my posts which focused specifically on the scientific debate. You have always crowed how Science admits when it is wrong and makes corrections; well sir there are quite a few scientists who dispute the testing methodology and the actual age of the Shroud, with real evidence for it's 1st Century creation out there. If you want to be a real scientist, you should

I also note that you continue to ignore the fact that no one has been able to recreate the thing. You toss out claims that it's a fraud, yet if that is so it's a very strange fraud, one no one has been able to duplicate, and among other things even the medieval date you prefer predates the invention of photography and 3-dimensional imaging by several centuries. Make one or show someone who made one using the technology of the 14th century and you have something, but for now your argument is specious by definition.

Finally, you might consider that I raised questions you could have used with validity, but I won't bring them up here because I really do think you should consider the long post with links that more than answers your continued unsupported claims.




I gave you a thorough analyis and examintation of the claims about the shroud, addressing the the science, and a refutation of your claims, point by point, that you obviously have ingnored.

If the claims about the shroud were true, the god of Christianity would want to proclaim "truth" to the world. And, certainly, if it were true, the Church would have it thoroughly examined, and proclaimed in support of the '"truth" and the "Church."

If the Church believed it to be real, to which it will not stipulate, it wouldn't hide behind keeping it secret. Perhaps they found it in the Talpiot Tomb?



If you really want an honest talk, address my post with all the links.

Right now you are 2 notches below Jerry Springer.

The post link I gave you addresses them in detail.

Nope.

I gave a detailed explanation in my own words with supporting links.

You either won't or cannot do as much, it appears.

I doncan't provide evidence for my claims need summarize something that but still expect should be easy for you to accept them anyway follow.

Corrected.

REAL scientists follow the evidence.

That's why I posted an easy link to a summary of everthing you need to know about the shroud. Go watch it. You'll learn something.

What I learned from it, is that you quickly abandon Science when you find a target to mock.

You cannot replicate the shroud. Until you do, there is no Science at all on your side.

What is the purpose of replicating it? It was already determined to be a medieval artifact, by carbon 14 dating and church records. A modern scientific analysis will tell us what it is or is not. The Church should offer it for more advanced testing. Maybe it came out of the Talpiot tomb.

Wrong, on three counts:

First. your claim that the medieval date is confirmed has been debunked. Ignoring the new data supporting the older age is not how real scientists do things, pal.

Second, the fact that neither you nor anyone else has been able to replicate the shroud demonstrates a unique quality to its provenance. It stands for authenticity unless and until your allies can create a replica to prove how it was done.

Third, you have already had more access to the Shroud than is given for most ancient artifacts. Claiming that the Church has obligations now beyond that demonstrates an irrational arrogance on your part, especially since you have completely failed to prove it's a fake.

I will say in the end that I do not consider the Shroud to have proven to be Christ's actual burial shroud, as we cannot prove a chain of custody. But your attempts to call it fake without compelling evidence are dishonest and absurd.

The Shroud is an icon of faith, and from the available evidence can only be taken as a unique object of historical and cultural interest, varying according to the beliefs of the observer. Anything else is ultimately no more than spin.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Tempus Edax Rerum
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

, anSo how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

First, I cannot help but notice you completely ignored my posts which focused specifically on the scientific debate. You have always crowed how Science admits when it is wrong and makes corrections; well sir there are quite a few scientists who dispute the testing methodology and the actual age of the Shroud, with real evidence for it's 1st Century creation out there. If you want to be a real scientist, you should

I also note that you continue to ignore the fact that no one has been able to recreate the thing. You toss out claims that it's a fraud, yet if that is so it's a very strange fraud, one no one has been able to duplicate, and among other things even the medieval date you prefer predates the invention of photography and 3-dimensional imaging by several centuries. Make one or show someone who made one using the technology of the 14th century and you have something, but for now your argument is specious by definition.

Finally, you might consider that I raised questions you could have used with validity, but I won't bring them up here because I really do think you should consider the long post with links that more than answers your continued unsupported claims.




I gave you a thorough analyis and examintation of the claims about the shroud, addressing the the science, and a refutation of your claims, point by point, that you obviously have ingnored.

If the claims about the shroud were true, the god of Christianity would want to proclaim "truth" to the world. And, certainly, if it were true, the Church would have it thoroughly examined, and proclaimed in support of the '"truth" and the "Church."

If the Church believed it to be real, to which it will not stipulate, it wouldn't hide behind keeping it secret. Perhaps they found it in the Talpiot Tomb?



If you really want an honest talk, address my post with all the links.

Right now you are 2 notches below Jerry Springer.

The post link I gave you addresses them in detail.

Nope.

I gave a detailed explanation in my own words with supporting links.

You either won't or cannot do as much, it appears.

I doncan't provide evidence for my claims need summarize something that but still expect should be easy for you to accept them anyway follow.

Corrected.

REAL scientists follow the evidence.

That's why I posted an easy link to a summary of everthing you need to know about the shroud. Go watch it. You'll learn something.

What I learned from it, is that you quickly abandon Science when you find a target to mock.

You cannot replicate the shroud. Until you do, there is no Science at all on your side.

What is the purpose of replicating it? It was already determined to be a medieval artifact, by carbon 14 dating and church records. A modern scientific analysis will tell us what it is or is not. The Church should offer it for more advanced testing. Maybe it came out of the Talpiot tomb.

Wrong, on three counts:

First. your claim that the medieval date is confirmed has been debunked. Ignoring the new data supporting the older age is not how real scientists do things, pal.

Second, the fact that neither you nor anyone else has been able to replicate the shroud demonstrates a unique quality to its provenance. It stands for authenticity unless and until your allies can create a replica to prove how it was done.

Third, you have already had more access to the Shroud than is given for most ancient artifacts. Claiming that the Church has obligations now beyond that demonstrates an irrational arrogance on your part, especially since you have completely failed to prove it's a fake.

I will say in the end that I do not consider the Shroud to have proven to be Christ's actual burial shroud, as we cannot prove a chain of custody. But your attempts to call it fake without compelling evidence are dishonest and absurd.

The Shroud is an icon of faith, and from the available evidence can only be taken as a unique object of historical and cultural interest, varying according to the beliefs of the observer. Anything else is ultimately no more than spin.



You seriously can't believe it's real?
4th and Inches
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Tempus Edax Rerum said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

, anSo how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

First, I cannot help but notice you completely ignored my posts which focused specifically on the scientific debate. You have always crowed how Science admits when it is wrong and makes corrections; well sir there are quite a few scientists who dispute the testing methodology and the actual age of the Shroud, with real evidence for it's 1st Century creation out there. If you want to be a real scientist, you should

I also note that you continue to ignore the fact that no one has been able to recreate the thing. You toss out claims that it's a fraud, yet if that is so it's a very strange fraud, one no one has been able to duplicate, and among other things even the medieval date you prefer predates the invention of photography and 3-dimensional imaging by several centuries. Make one or show someone who made one using the technology of the 14th century and you have something, but for now your argument is specious by definition.

Finally, you might consider that I raised questions you could have used with validity, but I won't bring them up here because I really do think you should consider the long post with links that more than answers your continued unsupported claims.




I gave you a thorough analyis and examintation of the claims about the shroud, addressing the the science, and a refutation of your claims, point by point, that you obviously have ingnored.

If the claims about the shroud were true, the god of Christianity would want to proclaim "truth" to the world. And, certainly, if it were true, the Church would have it thoroughly examined, and proclaimed in support of the '"truth" and the "Church."

If the Church believed it to be real, to which it will not stipulate, it wouldn't hide behind keeping it secret. Perhaps they found it in the Talpiot Tomb?



If you really want an honest talk, address my post with all the links.

Right now you are 2 notches below Jerry Springer.

The post link I gave you addresses them in detail.

Nope.

I gave a detailed explanation in my own words with supporting links.

You either won't or cannot do as much, it appears.

I doncan't provide evidence for my claims need summarize something that but still expect should be easy for you to accept them anyway follow.

Corrected.

REAL scientists follow the evidence.

That's why I posted an easy link to a summary of everthing you need to know about the shroud. Go watch it. You'll learn something.

What I learned from it, is that you quickly abandon Science when you find a target to mock.

You cannot replicate the shroud. Until you do, there is no Science at all on your side.

What is the purpose of replicating it? It was already determined to be a medieval artifact, by carbon 14 dating and church records. A modern scientific analysis will tell us what it is or is not. The Church should offer it for more advanced testing. Maybe it came out of the Talpiot tomb.

Wrong, on three counts:

First. your claim that the medieval date is confirmed has been debunked. Ignoring the new data supporting the older age is not how real scientists do things, pal.

Second, the fact that neither you nor anyone else has been able to replicate the shroud demonstrates a unique quality to its provenance. It stands for authenticity unless and until your allies can create a replica to prove how it was done.

Third, you have already had more access to the Shroud than is given for most ancient artifacts. Claiming that the Church has obligations now beyond that demonstrates an irrational arrogance on your part, especially since you have completely failed to prove it's a fake.

I will say in the end that I do not consider the Shroud to have proven to be Christ's actual burial shroud, as we cannot prove a chain of custody. But your attempts to call it fake without compelling evidence are dishonest and absurd.

The Shroud is an icon of faith, and from the available evidence can only be taken as a unique object of historical and cultural interest, varying according to the beliefs of the observer. Anything else is ultimately no more than spin.



You seriously can't believe it's real?
it doesnt matter if it is real.

You will never believe iit is real because you are blinded by the god of this world and those who have faith dont need to believe it is real because their faith isnt built om objects like this. It is a sign and wonder for the non believer, those who have eyes to see will see.
BUDOS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The most recent peerreviewed study specifically focused on radiation and the Shroud of Turin was published on June 18, 2025 in the International Journal of Archaeology. It concludes that the Shroud's image is best explained by a burst of radiation, based on advanced imageanalysis techniques.

International Journal of Archaeology Volume 13, Issue 1 (2025) "Body image on Shroud of Turin best explained by a burst of radiation" Author: Thomas McAvoy, University of Maryland Published: June 18, 2025
https://www.sciencepg.com/article/10.11648/j.ija.20251301.11 (sciencepg.com in Bing) (From the Jerusalem Post summary and citation)

  • Highresolution photos of the Shroud were analyzed using principalcomponent analysis and UVfluorescence imaging.
  • The image collapses mathematically into a single intensity component that encodes 3D information, similar to the NASA VP8 findings.
  • The author concludes that radiation is the only known mechanism capable of producing:
    • grayscale intensity variation
    • shallow fiberlevel image penetration
    • intrinsic 3D spatial encoding
  • The study calls for direct testing to determine the exact type of radiation (electromagnetic, particle, or thermonuclear).
  • Using state-of-the-art technology, the scientists concluded that the cloth's faint body image is best explained by a burst of a type of radiation, a type which cannot be explained by first century technologybecause it didn't exist.
  • To quote a variety of accomplished scientists, including outside groups
    • "Radiation is the only mechanism known to generate both grayscale intensities and latent 3-D information without penetrating beyond the linen fiber.
    • These findings "support the radiation hypothesis" and . . . It does not appear possible that this image could have been created by man."
Tempus Edax Rerum
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BUDOS said:

The most recent peerreviewed study specifically focused on radiation and the Shroud of Turin was published on June 18, 2025 in the International Journal of Archaeology. It concludes that the Shroud's image is best explained by a burst of radiation, based on advanced imageanalysis techniques.

International Journal of Archaeology Volume 13, Issue 1 (2025) "Body image on Shroud of Turin best explained by a burst of radiation" Author: Thomas McAvoy, University of Maryland Published: June 18, 2025
https://www.sciencepg.com/article/10.11648/j.ija.20251301.11 (sciencepg.com in Bing) (From the Jerusalem Post summary and citation)

  • Highresolution photos of the Shroud were analyzed using principalcomponent analysis and UVfluorescence imaging.
  • The image collapses mathematically into a single intensity component that encodes 3D information, similar to the NASA VP8 findings.
  • The author concludes that radiation is the only known mechanism capable of producing:
    • grayscale intensity variation
    • shallow fiberlevel image penetration
    • intrinsic 3D spatial encoding
  • The study calls for direct testing to determine the exact type of radiation (electromagnetic, particle, or thermonuclear).
  • Using state-of-the-art technology, the scientists concluded that the cloth's faint body image is best explained by a burst of a type of radiation, a type which cannot be explained by first century technologybecause it didn't exist.
  • To quote a variety of accomplished scientists, including outside groups
    • "Radiation is the only mechanism known to generate both grayscale intensities and latent 3-D information without penetrating beyond the linen fiber.
    • These findings "support the radiation hypothesis" and . . . It does not appear possible that this image could have been created by man."


I tracked down the actual paper, and there are some things you'll want to know before leaning on it, because the framing you were handed is considerably stronger than what the study itself says, and the venue is a problem.

First, a citation mismatch. The title and DOI you were given ("Body image on Shroud of Turin best explained by a burst of radiation," ...20251301.11) don't match the real article. The actual paper is "Artificial Intelligence Analysis of Images of the Shroud of Turin," by Thomas McAvoy, International Journal of Archaeology 13(1), 6977, DOI 10.11648/j.ija.20251301.17. The radiation-burst phrasing comes from the Jerusalem Post headline, not the paper's title. Small thing, but it's a sign the summary you got was assembled from press coverage rather than the source. Science Publishing Group

The bigger issue is the journal. The International Journal of Archaeology is published by Science Publishing Group (SciencePG), which is one of the more thoroughly documented predatory publishers. None of its journals carry serious indexing (Scopus, Web of Science), and it's widely described as a notorious predatory publisher where nobody is actually doing meaningful review. It appears on Beall's List, charges authors article fees (around $870) and has been criticized for questionable peer-review standards. Concretely, this paper was received 5 May 2025 and accepted 16 May 2025 eleven days, for a paper claiming a supernatural-adjacent image-formation mechanism. That's not a peer-review timeline; it's a turnaround fee. So "peer-reviewed" here doesn't carry the weight the word normally implies. ResearchGate + 2

On the author: Thomas McAvoy is a chemical and systems engineer at the University of Maryland (his background is process control), not an archaeologist, radiation physicist, or image-formation specialist. He's the sole author, and he has published a series of pro-radiation Shroud papers in this same SciencePG journal over the years (including a 2021 one arguing neutron radiation explains the carbon dating). So this is a single long-time advocate self-publishing in a venue that will print it, not an independent finding.

Now the substance, which matters most. The strong quotes you were given "radiation is the only mechanism known," "it does not appear possible that this image could have been created by man" are not in the paper's own conclusions. The actual abstract is far more hedged: it says how the image was formed is still unknown today, that a number of researchers hypothesize radiation was involved, that the PCA results are consistent with this radiation hypothesis, and that additional non-destructive testing needs to be carried out. "Consistent with a hypothesis" and "needs testing" is a long way from "only possible explanation." Those harder claims are layered on by secondary commentary. Science Publishing Group

And even taken at face value, the logic has gaps worth naming:
The 3D/VP-8 property (image intensity correlating with body-to-cloth distance) is real and interesting, but it isn't unique to radiation. Any distance-dependent process vapor or gas diffusion, contact with a warm bas-relief, a dabbing/rubbing technique over a mold produces intensity that varies with proximity. So "intrinsic 3D encoding" doesn't single out radiation over a human-made contact method.
"Radiation is the only known mechanism" is an argument from ignorance: not knowing another way isn't evidence for this one. And "radiation" is a physical hypothesis that has never actually been tested on the cloth the paper itself asks for that testing, which means it's proposing, not demonstrating.
The PCA result (image collapsing to a single intensity component) mostly says the image is essentially monochrome grayscale with one dominant dimension. That's true of many images and doesn't by itself pick out a formation mechanism.

For flavor on the journal's standards: a companion 2025 paper in the same issue-series argues the image came from electron irradiation and then states that recent quantum-foundations theory points to the existence of a parallel world where the image was, with certainty, created by rubidium-87 decays published with multiple spelling errors intact. That's the editorial gate this material is passing through. Science Publishing Group

So my honest read: this doesn't move the picture I described earlier. The image-formation mechanism genuinely is unexplained, which keeps the Shroud interesting, but a non-indexed predatory-journal paper by a non-specialist, whose own conclusions are hedged and whose strongest-sounding lines come from press framing, isn't real evidence against the man-made view. If you want a serious scholarly treatment of the radiation hypotheses (and their critics), the 2025 MDPI Heritage review by Schwortz-adjacent authors is a far better-vetted starting point than anything in this journal
Tempus Edax Rerum
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Short answer: "came from a sculpture" is a real, credible hypothesis with a properly peer-reviewed study behind it but it's not established, and the specific claim is narrower and more interesting than "a statue."

The study people are referring to is Ccero Moraes, "Image Formation on the Holy ShroudA Digital 3D Approach," published in Archaeometry (Wiley, 2025/26). Worth flagging up front that this is the opposite situation from the radiation paper we just went through: Archaeometry is a legitimate, indexed, peer-reviewed archaeological-science journal, so this one actually clears the bar the McAvoy paper didn't.
The argument hinges on a geometry problem that's been known about the Shroud for over a century.

When you drape a flat cloth over a full 3D body and then flatten it back out, the image you get is noticeably widened and distorted the so-called "Agamemnon Mask effect," named for the Mycenaean gold funerary mask that looked like it had been rolled flat after being fit to a face. The Shroud image doesn't show that wraparound distortion; it reads more like a flat, head-on projection. Moraes ran digital simulations draping virtual fabric over two forms and found that the full 3D human figure produced a widened, distorted imprint, while a low-relief model produced something much more consistent with the Shroud's actual proportions. So his conclusion is specifically a bas-relief a shallow, slightly raised carving not a full statue, and he leans toward an artist working in painting or low-relief while still acknowledging a remote possibility of a real-body imprint. That fits neatly with the medieval picture: low-relief was a common medieval technique, and the dating and first appearance both land in 14th-century France. Phys.org + 2

Now the honest caveats, because this isn't a closed case:
It's a digital simulation, not a physical experiment Moraes is a 3D/forensic-reconstruction artist using open-source modeling tools (Blender, MakeHuman, CloudCompare) on photographs, not draping real linen over a real carving. The result shows the Shroud's geometry is more compatible with a low-relief than a body; it doesn't prove a sculpture was used.

It's a contact-transfer model, and there's a substantive objection to that whole framing. The Turin sindonology center pushed back by pointing out that since Vignon and Delage in 1902, the image has been characterized as an orthogonal (vertical) projection rather than something formed by direct enveloping contact and if that's right, it argues against contact transfer from either a body or a bas-relief. (That center is an authenticity advocate, so weigh the source, but the orthogonal-projection point is a genuine technical one, not just apologetics.) FSSPX News

And it only addresses geometry, not chemistry. Moraes explains the image's proportions, not the physical nature of the image the superficial, pigment-free discoloration of the fibers. Those are separate puzzles, and a sculpture hypothesis has to be paired with a separate account of how the marks were actually deposited (medieval reproduction attempts, like Garlaschelli's in 2009, used a bas-relief plus a rubbing/scorch technique to address exactly that).

So where it nets out: the no-wraparound-distortion observation is actually one of the stronger geometric arguments on the man-made side, and Moraes gave it a clean modern demonstration. But "the Shroud came from a sculpture" is best stated as "the image's proportions are more consistent with a shallow relief than a real body" a well-supported hypothesis, not a settled finding, and one that still leaves the image's chemistry as an open question.
Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Tempus Edax Rerum said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

, anSo how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

First, I cannot help but notice you completely ignored my posts which focused specifically on the scientific debate. You have always crowed how Science admits when it is wrong and makes corrections; well sir there are quite a few scientists who dispute the testing methodology and the actual age of the Shroud, with real evidence for it's 1st Century creation out there. If you want to be a real scientist, you should

I also note that you continue to ignore the fact that no one has been able to recreate the thing. You toss out claims that it's a fraud, yet if that is so it's a very strange fraud, one no one has been able to duplicate, and among other things even the medieval date you prefer predates the invention of photography and 3-dimensional imaging by several centuries. Make one or show someone who made one using the technology of the 14th century and you have something, but for now your argument is specious by definition.

Finally, you might consider that I raised questions you could have used with validity, but I won't bring them up here because I really do think you should consider the long post with links that more than answers your continued unsupported claims.




I gave you a thorough analyis and examintation of the claims about the shroud, addressing the the science, and a refutation of your claims, point by point, that you obviously have ingnored.

If the claims about the shroud were true, the god of Christianity would want to proclaim "truth" to the world. And, certainly, if it were true, the Church would have it thoroughly examined, and proclaimed in support of the '"truth" and the "Church."

If the Church believed it to be real, to which it will not stipulate, it wouldn't hide behind keeping it secret. Perhaps they found it in the Talpiot Tomb?



If you really want an honest talk, address my post with all the links.

Right now you are 2 notches below Jerry Springer.

The post link I gave you addresses them in detail.

Nope.

I gave a detailed explanation in my own words with supporting links.

You either won't or cannot do as much, it appears.

I doncan't provide evidence for my claims need summarize something that but still expect should be easy for you to accept them anyway follow.

Corrected.

REAL scientists follow the evidence.

That's why I posted an easy link to a summary of everthing you need to know about the shroud. Go watch it. You'll learn something.

What I learned from it, is that you quickly abandon Science when you find a target to mock.

You cannot replicate the shroud. Until you do, there is no Science at all on your side.

What is the purpose of replicating it? It was already determined to be a medieval artifact, by carbon 14 dating and church records. A modern scientific analysis will tell us what it is or is not. The Church should offer it for more advanced testing. Maybe it came out of the Talpiot tomb.

Wrong, on three counts:

First. your claim that the medieval date is confirmed has been debunked. Ignoring the new data supporting the older age is not how real scientists do things, pal.

Second, the fact that neither you nor anyone else has been able to replicate the shroud demonstrates a unique quality to its provenance. It stands for authenticity unless and until your allies can create a replica to prove how it was done.

Third, you have already had more access to the Shroud than is given for most ancient artifacts. Claiming that the Church has obligations now beyond that demonstrates an irrational arrogance on your part, especially since you have completely failed to prove it's a fake.

I will say in the end that I do not consider the Shroud to have proven to be Christ's actual burial shroud, as we cannot prove a chain of custody. But your attempts to call it fake without compelling evidence are dishonest and absurd.

The Shroud is an icon of faith, and from the available evidence can only be taken as a unique object of historical and cultural interest, varying according to the beliefs of the observer. Anything else is ultimately no more than spin.



You seriously can't believe it's real?

I keep an open mind when facts are inconclusive. The fact that no one has been able to recreate the thing is an important point, as is the fact that the three-dimensional character of the image and the lack of any paints or pigments makes it very hard to believe that someone created this as a fake back in the days before photography or radioactive data; the thing has characteristics no one has been able to explain.

My faith does not require the shroud to be authentic. But the refusal of critics to admit they do not understand how this thing was made is a telling admission of the level of their own honesty.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
BUDOS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I'm pretty much in the same place as you seem to be.
Even after reviewing other scientific and forensic evidence, to me it becomes a matter of faith. However, having a growing body of such evidence does provide opportunities for interesting conversations.
Oldbear83
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Tempus Edax Rerum said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

What I learned from it, is that you quickly abandon Science when you find a target to mock.

You cannot replicate the shroud. Until you do, there is no Science at all on your side.

What is the purpose of replicating it? It was already determined to be a medieval artifact, by carbon 14 dating and church records. A modern scientific analysis will tell us what it is or is not. The Church should offer it for more advanced testing. Maybe it came out of the Talpiot tomb.

Wrong, on three counts:

First. your claim that the medieval date is confirmed has been debunked. Ignoring the new data supporting the older age is not how real scientists do things, pal.

Second, the fact that neither you nor anyone else has been able to replicate the shroud demonstrates a unique quality to its provenance. It stands for authenticity unless and until your allies can create a replica to prove how it was done.

Third, you have already had more access to the Shroud than is given for most ancient artifacts. Claiming that the Church has obligations now beyond that demonstrates an irrational arrogance on your part, especially since you have completely failed to prove it's a fake.

I will say in the end that I do not consider the Shroud to have proven to be Christ's actual burial shroud, as we cannot prove a chain of custody. But your attempts to call it fake without compelling evidence are dishonest and absurd.

The Shroud is an icon of faith, and from the available evidence can only be taken as a unique object of historical and cultural interest, varying according to the beliefs of the observer. Anything else is ultimately no more than spin.




You seriously can't believe it's real?

Read the bolded part again.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Coke Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TexasScientist said:

Coke Bear said:

TexasScientist said:


There is no evidence that links it to Jesus. Why won't the Church allow it to be thoroughly examined and tested? The evidence that is available indicates it is not what it is proclaimed to be.

What was wrong with the 120 consecutive hours of examination by the STURP team in 1978.


The Church has also allowed the studying of the materials from the cleaning in 2000.

Scientists are still studying the findings and results.

Watch the video link I gave you. It goes through all of that, item by item.

Here's another link: https://www.shroud.com/bar.htm

Please re-provide the link to your video. I pledge to watch if you can provide me with the most compeling reason from to video that makes you belief that it is fake.

Tell me why YOU think that the testing was not valid.

Secondly, I've studied the Shroud online at the Pontifical Athenaeum Regina Apostolorum based in Rome for a year.

An American chemist Raymond Rogers published a report in the peer-reviewed scientific journal Thermochimica Acta (January 2005) with evidence that the 1988 study's carbon-14 dating of the Shroud was invalid. He states that the testing sample was from a patch, most likely woven into the Shroud by the Poor Claire Sisters after the fire in Chambery.

A team of researchers from France and Italy found evidence that the 1988 testing was flawed. Publishing in Oxford University's Archaeometry, the team's lead researcher Tristan Casabianca claimed that the raw data from the 1988 tests showed the test samples were heterogeneous, invalidating the results.

Several other peer-reviewed articles have been written to discuss the statistical anomalies. Anyone today still arguing the validity of the 1988 C-14 testing is not being intellectually honest with the data.

This isn't to say that the Shroud is genuine. All that we can state from our knowledge of how the testing was performed, on what location it was tested, the lack of access to the data provided to be reviewed, and the potential for contamination and adulteration of the tested material, the 1988 testing should be completely ruled out as conclusive evidence on both sides.

Finally, let's say that the Church allows for testing in 2028, 50 years after the original STURP team did their work. That gives a team 2 years to prepare (just like the STURP team) to plan for rigorous testing.

For the sake of the argument they come to the same conclusions that the team did 50 years ago -
  • they cannot determine HOW it was made
  • it IS the shroud of a human man
  • It is not painted, drawn, or etched onto the linen
  • The blood (and plasma halo) was present BEFORE the image was made
What's to stop TexasScientist III from saying 50 years later, "We need more testing, but the Church won't let anyone study it!!!"

How many more times will it need to be studied and by whom?

BUDOS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Tempus,
Weren't there two pieces of cloth?
What is your debunking explanation for the second piece?
Tempus Edax Rerum
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BUDOS said:

Tempus,
Weren't there two pieces of cloth?
What is your debunking explanation for the second piece?

Yes, in the sense that the Shroud as it exists today is made up of a main body of cloth plus a separate "side strip." The side strip is a band roughly 8 to 9 cm wide that runs nearly the full length of one long side, joined to the main cloth by a single seam. There are also two missing panels at each end of that strip where the underlying backing cloth shows through.

The interesting question has always been whether the strip is truly a separate piece or part of the same cloth. Researchers traced thousands of individual threads across the seam using radiographs and found near-perfect alignment of each thread in position, thickness, and intensity through the seam and into the side strip, which suggests the strip and main body originally came from one continuous weave that was cut and rejoined.

The leading explanation comes from textile expert Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, who proposed that the Shroud was cut from a wider bolt of fabric into three sections two wide pieces (one now missing) plus a narrow side strip that was reattached. So rather than someone deliberately slicing a strip off a finished sheet and sewing it back, the cloth was likely cut from a much wider loom-woven bolt and assembled along a selvedge edge.

That seam matters for more than construction: Flury-Lemberg noted the stitching style closely resembles that of ancient Jewish textiles found at Masada, the fortress destroyed by the Romans around AD 73, which authenticity proponents cite as evidence against a medieval origin, but I am not buying it.
BUDOS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Tempus Edax Rerum said:

BUDOS said:

The most recent peerreviewed study specifically focused on radiation and the Shroud of Turin was published on June 18, 2025 in the International Journal of Archaeology. It concludes that the Shroud's image is best explained by a burst of radiation, based on advanced imageanalysis techniques.

International Journal of Archaeology Volume 13, Issue 1 (2025) "Body image on Shroud of Turin best explained by a burst of radiation" Author: Thomas McAvoy, University of Maryland Published: June 18, 2025
https://www.sciencepg.com/article/10.11648/j.ija.20251301.11 (sciencepg.com in Bing) (From the Jerusalem Post summary and citation)

  • Highresolution photos of the Shroud were analyzed using principalcomponent analysis and UVfluorescence imaging.
  • The image collapses mathematically into a single intensity component that encodes 3D information, similar to the NASA VP8 findings.
  • The author concludes that radiation is the only known mechanism capable of producing:
    • grayscale intensity variation
    • shallow fiberlevel image penetration
    • intrinsic 3D spatial encoding
  • The study calls for direct testing to determine the exact type of radiation (electromagnetic, particle, or thermonuclear).
  • Using state-of-the-art technology, the scientists concluded that the cloth's faint body image is best explained by a burst of a type of radiation, a type which cannot be explained by first century technologybecause it didn't exist.
  • To quote a variety of accomplished scientists, including outside groups
    • "Radiation is the only mechanism known to generate both grayscale intensities and latent 3-D information without penetrating beyond the linen fiber.
    • These findings "support the radiation hypothesis" and . . . It does not appear possible that this image could have been created by man."


I tracked down the actual paper, and there are some things you'll want to know before leaning on it, because the framing you were handed is considerably stronger than what the study itself says, and the venue is a problem.

First, a citation mismatch. The title and DOI you were given ("Body image on Shroud of Turin best explained by a burst of radiation," ...20251301.11) don't match the real article. The actual paper is "Artificial Intelligence Analysis of Images of the Shroud of Turin," by Thomas McAvoy, International Journal of Archaeology 13(1), 6977, DOI 10.11648/j.ija.20251301.17. The radiation-burst phrasing comes from the Jerusalem Post headline, not the paper's title. Small thing, but it's a sign the summary you got was assembled from press coverage rather than the source. Science Publishing Group

The bigger issue is the journal. The International Journal of Archaeology is published by Science Publishing Group (SciencePG), which is one of the more thoroughly documented predatory publishers. None of its journals carry serious indexing (Scopus, Web of Science), and it's widely described as a notorious predatory publisher where nobody is actually doing meaningful review. It appears on Beall's List, charges authors article fees (around $870) and has been criticized for questionable peer-review standards. Concretely, this paper was received 5 May 2025 and accepted 16 May 2025 eleven days, for a paper claiming a supernatural-adjacent image-formation mechanism. That's not a peer-review timeline; it's a turnaround fee. So "peer-reviewed" here doesn't carry the weight the word normally implies. ResearchGate + 2

On the author: Thomas McAvoy is a chemical and systems engineer at the University of Maryland (his background is process control), not an archaeologist, radiation physicist, or image-formation specialist. He's the sole author, and he has published a series of pro-radiation Shroud papers in this same SciencePG journal over the years (including a 2021 one arguing neutron radiation explains the carbon dating). So this is a single long-time advocate self-publishing in a venue that will print it, not an independent finding.

Now the substance, which matters most. The strong quotes you were given "radiation is the only mechanism known," "it does not appear possible that this image could have been created by man" are not in the paper's own conclusions. The actual abstract is far more hedged: it says how the image was formed is still unknown today, that a number of researchers hypothesize radiation was involved, that the PCA results are consistent with this radiation hypothesis, and that additional non-destructive testing needs to be carried out. "Consistent with a hypothesis" and "needs testing" is a long way from "only possible explanation." Those harder claims are layered on by secondary commentary. Science Publishing Group

And even taken at face value, the logic has gaps worth naming:
The 3D/VP-8 property (image intensity correlating with body-to-cloth distance) is real and interesting, but it isn't unique to radiation. Any distance-dependent process vapor or gas diffusion, contact with a warm bas-relief, a dabbing/rubbing technique over a mold produces intensity that varies with proximity. So "intrinsic 3D encoding" doesn't single out radiation over a human-made contact method.
"Radiation is the only known mechanism" is an argument from ignorance: not knowing another way isn't evidence for this one. And "radiation" is a physical hypothesis that has never actually been tested on the cloth the paper itself asks for that testing, which means it's proposing, not demonstrating.
The PCA result (image collapsing to a single intensity component) mostly says the image is essentially monochrome grayscale with one dominant dimension. That's true of many images and doesn't by itself pick out a formation mechanism.

For flavor on the journal's standards: a companion 2025 paper in the same issue-series argues the image came from electron irradiation and then states that recent quantum-foundations theory points to the existence of a parallel world where the image was, with certainty, created by rubidium-87 decays published with multiple spelling errors intact. That's the editorial gate this material is passing through. Science Publishing Group

So my honest read: this doesn't move the picture I described earlier. The image-formation mechanism genuinely is unexplained, which keeps the Shroud interesting, but a non-indexed predatory-journal paper by a non-specialist, whose own conclusions are hedged and whose strongest-sounding lines come from press framing, isn't real evidence against the man-made view. If you want a serious scholarly treatment of the radiation hypotheses (and their critics), the 2025 MDPI Heritage review by Schwortz-adjacent authors is a far better-vetted starting point than anything in this journal

Well, if what you say is accurate, you certainly diluted the argument, but as you also stated, either way, it remains a mystery, plus, while your research may weaken the radiation argument, it does not deny it, and I hope future, follow-up research will do more to add credence to that possible conclusion, as I really like it.

I appreciate you taking the time to do the research, even though it certainly made me look incompetent. However, I was not aware of this additional research, which you discovered. I also appreciate the overall tone of your response, as you didn't resort to the vitriol so often practiced by some others. I will follow up on the resources you gave at a later time, as I gather such information for my self-interest. It is not that I doubt your overall findings. I would like to confirm your interpretation and the specificity of your wording, based on past experience with some of these guys.

Are you aware of Fanti's research? While it also is not definitive, it seems to be one of the more scientific.
BUDOS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Tempus Edax Rerum said:

BUDOS said:

Tempus,
Weren't there two pieces of cloth?
What is your debunking explanation for the second piece?

Yes, in the sense that the Shroud as it exists today is made up of a main body of cloth plus a separate "side strip." The side strip is a band roughly 8 to 9 cm wide that runs nearly the full length of one long side, joined to the main cloth by a single seam. There are also two missing panels at each end of that strip where the underlying backing cloth shows through.

The interesting question has always been whether the strip is truly a separate piece or part of the same cloth. Researchers traced thousands of individual threads across the seam using radiographs and found near-perfect alignment of each thread in position, thickness, and intensity through the seam and into the side strip, which suggests the strip and main body originally came from one continuous weave that was cut and rejoined.

The leading explanation comes from textile expert Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, who proposed that the Shroud was cut from a wider bolt of fabric into three sections two wide pieces (one now missing) plus a narrow side strip that was reattached. So rather than someone deliberately slicing a strip off a finished sheet and sewing it back, the cloth was likely cut from a much wider loom-woven bolt and assembled along a selvedge edge.

That seam matters for more than construction: Flury-Lemberg noted the stitching style closely resembles that of ancient Jewish textiles found at Masada, the fortress destroyed by the Romans around AD 73, which authenticity proponents cite as evidence against a medieval origin, but I am not buying it.

Tempus,
In coming across those articles on the Shroud, I came across a few sources on that second piece. I'm curious how you might break down the following findings, especially which ones are the weakest and strongest. I have included some sources where I got some of this information.

Let's go to John 20: 6-7, and notice the reference to the second piece of cloth.
6 Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus' head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. 7 The other disciple, who had followed him, came first. He also saw the linen cloths lying there, but the cloth that had been on Jesus' head was folded up and lying separately.

"The cloth wrapped around Jesus' head" is now referred to as "The Sudarium of Oviedo." This is a smaller, heavily bloodstained piece of linen kept in a cathedral in Oviedo, Spain.
Several features are common to both it & The Shroud, reinforcing claims for the authenticity of both.
All the findings are compatible with the cloth having being used to cover the head of a victim of crucifixion.
Extensive forensic analysis has revealed several key findings supporting its connection to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
Bloodstains:
These include the exact position of the beard & mustache on both.
The Sudarium also contains bloodstains which match the Shroud's patterns, also indicating that both cloths covered the same man.
Traces of these wounds compatible with a crown of thorns being on the person's head are also present in both cloths.
They show small clots formed from wounds that had been made by small pointed objects such as the sharp spikes of a crown of thorns, including blood clots located at the back of the head & forehead.

Blood Type: The Sudarium shows evidence of blood type AB, Same as found on the Shroud.
Pulmonary Edema: The Sudarium contains traces of pulmonary edema fluid, which is consistent with death by crucifixion.
Residues of Burial Practices: The cloth also contains the same residues of aloe and myrrh, used in first-century Jewish burial practices.
DNA and Hematological Findings: DNA and hematological findings were analyzed, providing further evidence of the Sudarium's authenticity with the Shroud.
Tempus, here are the most recent publicly available articles and media pieces discussing the Sudarium of Oviedo, if you would like to review them in more depth.

1. Times of Malta "A cloth through time: unravelling the mystery of the Sudarium of Oviedo" (April, 2026)
A journalistic overview of the Sudarium's history, biblical connections, and cultural significance. It highlights:
  • The Gospel reference to the soudarion in John 20:67
  • Roman napkin customs and their symbolic interpretations
  • The cloth's journey from Jerusalem to Spain
  • Its preservation in the Cmara Santa of Oviedo Cathedral Times of Malta
2. Angelus News "Jesus' burial face cloth has an epic survival story" (April, 2026)
A faithfocused article summarizing:
  • Jewish burial customs involving multiple cloths
  • The role of the soudarion in collecting blood from violent deaths
  • Scientific correlations between the Sudarium and the Shroud of Turin (blood type AB, pollen, stain alignment)
  • Historical references to the cloth's custody since antiquity Angelus News

3. The Shroud of Turin Website "New Discoveries on the Sudarium of Oviedo" (Research article, 20252026)
A technical, scientific report from the Spanish Center of Sindonology (EDICES) describing:
  • Xray fluorescence analysis of the cloth
  • Elevated calcium levels in bloodstained areas matching Shroud of Turin dust patterns
  • Strontium levels consistent with Jerusalem limestone
  • Newly identified stain patterns possibly linked to scourging
    The Shroud of Turin Website

4. The Insight Archive (YouTube) "Scientists Tested The Sudarium of Oviedo And The DNA Results Change Everything" (2026)
A popularlevel video (with entertainment disclaimers) discussing:
  • Modern forensic and DNA testing claims
  • The cloth's historical obscurity and renewed scientific interest
  • Speculative interpretations aimed at general audiences YouTube

5. Shroud of Turin International Conference (2025) "The Sudarium of Oviedo: Reality, History, and Link to the Shroud of Turin"
A conference presentation by Prof. Jorge Manuel Rodrguez Almenar covering:
  • Forensic and textile analysis
  • 3D modeling of bloodstain patterns
  • Historical journey from Jerusalem to Oviedo
  • Strong correlations with the Shroud of Turin guypowell.com
  • It is my opinion that The Shroud & the Sudarium are either the most ingenious forgeries ever createdor the most important artifacts in human history, or they could be real.

I don't agree with some of your posts, a few are even irritating; however, there are those which cause me to rethink and evaluate some of my opinions. I think one of the reasons for that is when you respond with little negative tone, which is has to be difficult at times, as some of these guys seem to live to snarky comments, rather than contributing to the discussion. Just my take.
Fre3dombear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BUDOS said:

The most recent peerreviewed study specifically focused on radiation and the Shroud of Turin was published on June 18, 2025 in the International Journal of Archaeology. It concludes that the Shroud's image is best explained by a burst of radiation, based on advanced imageanalysis techniques.

International Journal of Archaeology Volume 13, Issue 1 (2025) "Body image on Shroud of Turin best explained by a burst of radiation" Author: Thomas McAvoy, University of Maryland Published: June 18, 2025
https://www.sciencepg.com/article/10.11648/j.ija.20251301.11 (sciencepg.com in Bing) (From the Jerusalem Post summary and citation)

  • Highresolution photos of the Shroud were analyzed using principalcomponent analysis and UVfluorescence imaging.
  • The image collapses mathematically into a single intensity component that encodes 3D information, similar to the NASA VP8 findings.
  • The author concludes that radiation is the only known mechanism capable of producing:
    • grayscale intensity variation
    • shallow fiberlevel image penetration
    • intrinsic 3D spatial encoding
  • The study calls for direct testing to determine the exact type of radiation (electromagnetic, particle, or thermonuclear).
  • Using state-of-the-art technology, the scientists concluded that the cloth's faint body image is best explained by a burst of a type of radiation, a type which cannot be explained by first century technologybecause it didn't exist.
  • To quote a variety of accomplished scientists, including outside groups
    • "Radiation is the only mechanism known to generate both grayscale intensities and latent 3-D information without penetrating beyond the linen fiber.
    • These findings "support the radiation hypothesis" and . . . It does not appear possible that this image could have been created by man."



Yeah not sure why this is being glossed over in this thread for other decades old studies

I find it quite amusing that TS know no human alive in this advanced godless culture, for many, can replicate it and somehow, thats not relevant lololol

Those brilliant medieval whities with their advanced genius thatthey keep secret to this day!! Darn their brilliance at tricking people into being Catholic!!!
Fre3dombear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

anSo how was it made, TS?

Watch the video.

No one has been able to recreate the Shroud.

You still have the burden for your claim.

Science, after all.

Uh, I think you need to watch the video before you say that.

Take your own advice.

That video is just a couple guys who dismiss the Shroud, but could not reproduce it.

Your opinion is not proof, boyo. It's not even real Science.

It's obvious you didn't watch the video and don't know the subject matter/content. Just one guy. Know what you're talking about before you comment.


I know quite a bit about the matter. One biased video hardly moves the needle.

Then you know the Shroud has all the markings of a fraudulent relic.


Not really. And no one has made one, to show how it was done.

The Church has limited its examination. What has been allowed has been enough to call into question its authenticity as a burial shroud dating in early first century. The Church holds it out as a tease. If it were a testament to an all powerful supernatural god, whose objective is to convince the world to believe, then that god wouldn't hide it in mystery. That god would make sure its authenticity is unquestioned, and make it abundantly clear to the world.

First, I cannot help but notice you completely ignored my posts which focused specifically on the scientific debate. You have always crowed how Science admits when it is wrong and makes corrections; well sir there are quite a few scientists who dispute the testing methodology and the actual age of the Shroud, with real evidence for it's 1st Century creation out there. If you want to be a real scientist, you should

I also note that you continue to ignore the fact that no one has been able to recreate the thing. You toss out claims that it's a fraud, yet if that is so it's a very strange fraud, one no one has been able to duplicate, and among other things even the medieval date you prefer predates the invention of photography and 3-dimensional imaging by several centuries. Make one or show someone who made one using the technology of the 14th century and you have something, but for now your argument is specious by definition.

Finally, you might consider that I raised questions you could have used with validity, but I won't bring them up here because I really do think you should consider the long post with links that more than answers your continued unsupported claims.




I gave you a thorough analyis and examintation of the claims about the shroud, addressing the the science, and a refutation of your claims, point by point, that you obviously have ingnored.

If the claims about the shroud were true, the god of Christianity would want to proclaim "truth" to the world. And, certainly, if it were true, the Church would have it thoroughly examined, and proclaimed in support of the '"truth" and the "Church."

If the Church believed it to be real, to which it will not stipulate, it wouldn't hide behind keeping it secret. Perhaps they found it in the Talpiot Tomb?



If you really want an honest talk, address my post with all the links.

Right now you are 2 notches below Jerry Springer.

The post link I gave you addresses them in detail.

Nope.

I gave a detailed explanation in my own words with supporting links.

You either won't or cannot do as much, it appears.

I doncan't provide evidence for my claims need summarize something that but still expect should be easy for you to accept them anyway follow.

Corrected.

REAL scientists follow the evidence.

That's why I posted an easy link to a summary of everthing you need to know about the shroud. Go watch it. You'll learn something.


Did Jesus exist bodily, walk the earth and get crucified and die on the cross?

Did he then resurrect feom the dead and walk amongst us?
BusyTarpDuster2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Regarding the blood evidence on the Shroud and the Sudarium - ancient blood samples frequently test as being type AB due to the age of the sample and from false positives. The blood type evidence from both cloths just isn't conclusive. From the article - https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/shroud-of-turin-mystery-as-expert-claims-to-have-solved-authentic-blood-type/ar-AA1KAqMM:

"Dr. Kelly Kearse, an immunologist who has conducted extensive research on the Shroud of Turin, expressed doubt about the assertion that the blood on the Shroud is type AB.

Dr. Kearse contended that the methods used lacked proper controls and could yield false positives due to contamination, such as bacteria, or the degradation of the blood over centuries. "Regarding tests to determine blood type, it could be AB, but I really don't think there's any solid scientific evidence to back that up," he stated in a 2020 study."
TexasScientist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
4th and Inches said:

TexasScientist said:

Catchy answer for those who prefer following primitive ignorance, unable to cope wiith the reality of their mortality.

If being at peace with the death of my mortal flesh is what I am struggling to cope with, why am I 100% cool with it. Already have my funeral plans made. I have no fear.

You seem to be the one who is struggling a bit. I will pray for your awakening.

I'm not the one who leans on a religious crutch for comfort.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Coke Bear said:

TexasScientist said:

Coke Bear said:

TexasScientist said:


There is no evidence that links it to Jesus. Why won't the Church allow it to be thoroughly examined and tested? The evidence that is available indicates it is not what it is proclaimed to be.

What was wrong with the 120 consecutive hours of examination by the STURP team in 1978.


The Church has also allowed the studying of the materials from the cleaning in 2000.

Scientists are still studying the findings and results.

Watch the video link I gave you. It goes through all of that, item by item.

Here's another link: https://www.shroud.com/bar.htm

Please re-provide the link to your video. I pledge to watch if you can provide me with the most compeling reason from to video that makes you belief that it is fake.

Tell me why YOU think that the testing was not valid.

Secondly, I've studied the Shroud online at the Pontifical Athenaeum Regina Apostolorum based in Rome for a year.

An American chemist Raymond Rogers published a report in the peer-reviewed scientific journal Thermochimica Acta (January 2005) with evidence that the 1988 study's carbon-14 dating of the Shroud was invalid. He states that the testing sample was from a patch, most likely woven into the Shroud by the Poor Claire Sisters after the fire in Chambery.

A team of researchers from France and Italy found evidence that the 1988 testing was flawed. Publishing in Oxford University's Archaeometry, the team's lead researcher Tristan Casabianca claimed that the raw data from the 1988 tests showed the test samples were heterogeneous, invalidating the results.

Several other peer-reviewed articles have been written to discuss the statistical anomalies. Anyone today still arguing the validity of the 1988 C-14 testing is not being intellectually honest with the data.

This isn't to say that the Shroud is genuine. All that we can state from our knowledge of how the testing was performed, on what location it was tested, the lack of access to the data provided to be reviewed, and the potential for contamination and adulteration of the tested material, the 1988 testing should be completely ruled out as conclusive evidence on both sides.

Finally, let's say that the Church allows for testing in 2028, 50 years after the original STURP team did their work. That gives a team 2 years to prepare (just like the STURP team) to plan for rigorous testing.

For the sake of the argument they come to the same conclusions that the team did 50 years ago -
  • they cannot determine HOW it was made
  • it IS the shroud of a human man
  • It is not painted, drawn, or etched onto the linen
  • The blood (and plasma halo) was present BEFORE the image was made
What's to stop TexasScientist III from saying 50 years later, "We need more testing, but the Church won't let anyone study it!!!"

How many more times will it need to be studied and by whom?



<iframe width="560" height="315" src=" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

Did Jesus exist bodily, walk the earth and get crucified and die on the cross?

Did he then resurrect feom the dead and walk amongst us?

I think he was most likely a real person, who was executed by the Romans, maybe by crucifixion.

No, that is a multi-version myth that evolved after his death.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
4th and Inches
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TexasScientist said:

4th and Inches said:

TexasScientist said:

Catchy answer for those who prefer following primitive ignorance, unable to cope wiith the reality of their mortality.

If being at peace with the death of my mortal flesh is what I am struggling to cope with, why am I 100% cool with it. Already have my funeral plans made. I have no fear.

You seem to be the one who is struggling a bit. I will pray for your awakening.

I'm not the one who leans on a religious crutch for comfort.
i dont lean or a religious crutch for comfort. I lean into God the Father, the son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit of truth for everything.

It saddens me to see somebody who has been given the good news and still denies the truth.

Without the awakening, you can never understand what you are missing. All the things you are trying to fill voids in your life with are just dust and dirty rags.

I dont long for worldly items to give me comfort, safety and security, I already have all that I need. It has been provider for me to use until I am no longer here on this Earth.

Matthew 6:31-33
"So don't worry about these things, saying, 'What will we eat? What will we drink? What will we wear?' These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need."

Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will direct your paths.

It's that simple, give God control of everything in your life and let Him work. The peace and joy is not possible by your own.
TexasScientist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

Wrong, on three counts:

First. your claim that the medieval date is confirmed has been debunked. Ignoring the new data supporting the older age is not how real scientists do things, pal.

Second, the fact that neither you nor anyone else has been able to replicate the shroud demonstrates a unique quality to its provenance. It stands for authenticity unless and until your allies can create a replica to prove how it was done.

Third, you have already had more access to the Shroud than is given for most ancient artifacts. Claiming that the Church has obligations now beyond that demonstrates an irrational arrogance on your part, especially since you have completely failed to prove it's a fake.

I will say in the end that I do not consider the Shroud to have proven to be Christ's actual burial shroud, as we cannot prove a chain of custody. But your attempts to call it fake without compelling evidence are dishonest and absurd.

The Shroud is an icon of faith, and from the available evidence can only be taken as a unique object of historical and cultural interest, varying according to the beliefs of the observer. Anything else is ultimately no more than spin.

Your last paragraph is valid. I've already given you a link to analysis and complete commentary that covers your argument and then some. The church should submit it for examination using more modern and current technology that wasn't available when it was last examined. Of course, they could get Israel to produce the bones from the Talpiot ossuaries (possibly check the ossuaries for DNA also) and compare the DNA. If it checks out, I'll believe that is Jesus' burial shroud.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
BusyTarpDuster2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TexasScientist said:

Quote:

Did Jesus exist bodily, walk the earth and get crucified and die on the cross?

Did he then resurrect feom the dead and walk amongst us?

I think he was most likely a real person, who was executed by the Romans, maybe by crucifixion.

No, that is a multi-version myth that evolved after his death.

Know many people who were willing to leave their life and even lose their life for a myth?

The consensus of historians, even the atheist ones, is that the disciples sincerely believed they had seen the risen Jesus after his death.
BusyTarpDuster2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Still wondering how many of you firm believers in the Shroud can deal with the elephant in the room - Scripture described the cloths as "strips of linen" and a separate cloth that covered his head, not one single long sheet. And if that head cloth is the Sudarium of Oviedo - then why doesn't it have the same kind of image as what's on the Shroud?
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.