Would you have kicked Seth out of your home?

17,758 Views | 396 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Florda_mike
bubbadog
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Coke Bear said:


Why were the Spanish Inquisitions started? Because Spain had finally rid the Iberian peninsula of Muslims after 700 years of oppression. The state instituted the Inquisitions. The Church interrogated the "heretics." Spain, which was a Catholic country, wanted to insure that the Muslims were gone. Sadly, some innocent Jews were persecuted in this.

As apologetics go, all I can say this is, "Wow."

Actually, that's not all I can say. Your summation of the Inquisition is about as sugar-coated as it gets. Hard to know where to start.

As to Muslim "oppression," I'm sure that is the Church's point of view. It would not a historian's point of view. By and large, the treatment of religious minorities during the centuries of Muslim rule was much more enlightened than it was in the early centuries after Christians regained control of Spain. Yes, Christians had to pay a tax. Yes, there were some occasional episodes of violent persecution. But the more typical feature of Muslim rule was the notion of "convivencia," or living together.

Christian persecution of Jews was a feature of Christian rule, not a bug. It was so bad that the Jews of Spain welcomed the Muslim invaders in the 8th century as their liberators and assisted them in their conquest. And though there were occasional spasms of violence against Jews in the centuries of Muslim rule, Jews generally prospered in Moorish Spain.

Some innocent Jews were persecuted? More than some. When the Christian rulers captured the last Moorish stronghold in southern Spain, the persecution of Jews began again in earnest. In the same year that Ferdinand and Isabella sent Columbus across the Atlantic, they decreed that all Spanish Jews must either convert, leave Spain or be killed.

Some converted. But there was later a backlash against these "conversos" for having impure blood.

A surprising number, conversos and otherwise, came to the New World, and some continued to practice their religion in secret.

Others left for other parts of Europe. A number went to the Netherlands, which was under Spanish control until the early 17th century. (I don't have conclusive proof, but I have good evidence that my ancestors were among the Spanish Jews who left Spain for Holland, where at some point they became Christians.)

To justify the Inquisition on the grounds that Spain had to be rid of Muslims is just an awful rationalization. And it wasn't just confined to Spain. The conquistadores and priests brought the Inquisition to the New World, too, where it was practiced against English, French and some Dutch Protestants whenever they came under Spanish authority.

To try to pawn responsibility of the Inquisition off on the state rather than the Church is misleading at best. The Spanish state and church were joined at the hip. The Inquisition would not have happened without the Church's direction and leadership.

The Inquisition was a horrible period, and much blood was on the Church's hands because of it. As you note, we look on the use of torture today as sinful and barbarous. But what makes it all the worse is the Church knew it was barbarous even then. I'll point you to the letter that Pope Nicholas I wrote in 866 to the newly converted Bulgars, expressly forbidding torture (see chapter LXXXVI, near the end). The Pope condemned torture for the same reasons you did in your post above.

The best traditions of the church were expressed by the Brazilian Cardinal Paulo Arns, who opposed the use of torture by the Brazilian military junta. As the dictatorship was ending, Cardinal Arns helped facilitate the publication of the military's torture archives that named names and exposed what had been done. The resulting book, Brasil: Nunca Mais, took the country by storm. Asked why he had been involved in this effort, even at personal risk, Cardinal Arns cited the Letter to the Bulgars. And then he cited Genesis 1 -- that all human beings were created in the image of God. To torture a human being, said Cardinal Arns, "violates God himself who created him."

But if expect people to take the church seriously, we cannot just focus on the best traditions. We also have to acknowledge and repent of the worst. We cannot hide behind dishonest rationalizations without forfeiting some legitimacy. The only honest way to look at the Inquisition was as a rebellion against God's moral law. We might speak of its good intentions or understandable motives, but the bottom line is that it was immoral. And we ought to acknowledge that there were periods when the Church may have done as much harm as good.

The harm is not measured only by the number of lives directly impacted -- the 3,000 (to use your figure) killed in the Inquisition or the many thousands more who underwent torture, or the many, many thousands more who were expelled upon threat of death. It is also the harm to the greater community. If you disagree, consider the damage done by the clergy abuse scandal. It goes way beyond those actually molested. It goes way beyond the individual priests (300 named today in Pennsylvania alone!). It extends to the loss of trust by millions, and to the congregations closed because the Church had to see properties to pay legal damages for what the priests did and what the hierarchy covered up. The only way to regain trust is by honest admission of failure, and that's as true of the Church's evildoing in the 1500s as it is of the 1900s.
GoneGirl
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Canada2017 said:

TexasScientist said:

Canada2017 said:

TexasScientist said:

Canada2017 said:

TexasScientist said:

Canada2017 said:

TexasScientist said:

Sam Lowry said:

Jinx 2 said:

Sam Lowry said:

What I'm saying is, the Church doesn't teach that desire is unvirtuous or that women who've had sex are impure. Your description of the doctrine is incorrect. You may think the actual Catholic (and Protestant) teachings about contraception are incorrect too, but that's another issue.

There are different estimates of the failure rate of NFP, depending on who's doing the numbers and which method or combination of methods you're talking about. Planned Parenthood calls it between 12% and 24%. Assuming that's accurate, the better methods are only slightly less effective than the Pill, which according to Quash's link has a failure rate of 9%. I'm not arguing that NFP is the optimal method in terms of pregnancy prevention. I find it advantageous for its lack of harmful side effects, both medical and moral.
The Church does, however, teach that use of contraception is immoral. Coke Bear calls NFP a "moral" form of family planning. But most Americans and most Catholics do not believe a woman or couple's decision to use an effective form of contraception is immoral.

Trying to impose the Church's view that God should and must make the decision regarding whether every single sex act will result in a pregnancy is not congruent with separation of church and state. While I disagree with your beliefs, they would not bother me nearly so much if the Church has not and did not still advocate their implementation as government policy with the force of law.

Sadly, what it's taken to end that, in Ireland at least, is evidence of the fact that the Church was perfectly willing to police the bedrooms of its members, but not its priests or of its institutions for children or for unwed mothers. A vigorous interest in life in the womb becomes considerably less credible when people learn that the children of unwed mothers who weren't sold away from their mothers in Irish institutions were starved, abused, received abysmal medical treatment, and were dumped in mass graves after they died of curable childhood illnesses, all because they were considered inferior children of sin, and that mothers who bore children out of wedlock were essentially enslaved. THAT is why Ireland voted itself out from under canon law--because it protects the Church and covers over the sins of its priests, nuns and employees, while condemning married couples for wanting to have sex without fear of a pregnancy resulting. If Church officials and members would acknowledge and atone for this level of hypocrisy and actually do something about it instead of doing everything it possibly can to avoid the criminal consequences that should result from such abuse or paying child support (in the cases of priests who fathered children), that would make things a little better. But, instead, the Church demands a level of morality from ordinary parishioners it does not require of its leaders.

So, IMO, the Church has certainly lost any moral authority it might assert to non-Catholics, and Catholics, rather than preaching to protestants about the immorality of contraception, should be demanding that priests and Church leadership be accountable for THEIR sins instead of holding the rest of the world accountable while excusing, ignoring and hiding their own transgressions.
America is not a Catholic country. Our laws and opinions for and against contraception have never been based on Catholic dogma. I'm not even sure why we're talking about Catholicism. As for the Church and its moral authority, I really don't think any sort of atonement will improve your opinion unless you understand what the Church teaches and why.
The Catholic Church has never been a bastion of morality or moral authority. It's a political animal with the purpose of amassing wealth.


The billions of dollars distributed to the worlds poor via Catholic Charities ?
Ok. How many billions of dollars were distributed to the worlds poor via Catholic Charities? Does anyone really know, other than the elite within the church? Certainly they give something, in order to justify the fleecing of its parishioners. The Church no doubt is one of the wealthiest, if not the wealthiest institution in the world. There is no transparency to the Catholic Church. I wonder why?


Fella you are beyond bitter.

Catholic Charities has been aiding the poor world wide for a very long time. Even here in northern Colorado they are one of the very few agencies that routinely aid the homeless and hungry . In the fall and winter I volunteer at the local homeless service center. Part of the budget is provided by Catholic Charities. They also provide the relief mission in Greeley and Fort Collins.

Fleece the parishioners ? chuckle

Never fear fella, you are too 'clever' to be fleeced by the 'elite' involved with Catholic Charities.
My point is that giving back a penance compared to the enormous wealth the Church amasses is part of their business model. It keeps people like you engaged, and giving of your money and time. I think it would be shocking how little the Church gives back as a percentage of its income, much less overall wealth. Our public and news media becomes enraged when it is exposed how little charities such as Red Cross give back. I would speculate those charities most criticized would pale up against the Catholic Church. Can you tell me how much of the Church's wealth or income is given back to the homeless and hungry?


You are the one making the incredibly vicious accusations.

Back up your own claims. Or is it more self gratifying to hate without reason ?

In addition....name me just 2 non governmental organizations that do MORE for the poor world wide than Catholic Charities.

I've never even heard of one that comes anywhere close.
Clearly there is a lot of evil within the Church to go along with whatever it decides to allocate to charity.


Wrong....completely wrong.

There was is no evil within the Catholic Church. There have been a few bad individuals throughout the years.....but no more than with any other large organization.

And the good the Church has done throughout the years is massive.

Please tell me which atheist organizations have aided the world's poor anything approaching Catholic Charities ?

You can't because there arent any.

Over and over you attempt to mock or demean other people's faith . Amusing at times because you always declare your biases as ' true ' .

Hate to break it to ya fella....but merely because it's your opinion.....doesn't make it 'true'.

My family deeply enjoys our faith, the Catholic Church and the various social work through the Church.

Enjoy your atheism fella......it's all fine.


"There is no evil within the Catholic Church" - but this report contains a sickening account of lots of evil: http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/local/report-on-pennsylvania-church-sex-abuse/2319/
TexasScientist
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Jinx 2 said:

Canada2017 said:

TexasScientist said:

Canada2017 said:

TexasScientist said:

Canada2017 said:

TexasScientist said:

Canada2017 said:

TexasScientist said:

Sam Lowry said:

Jinx 2 said:

Sam Lowry said:

What I'm saying is, the Church doesn't teach that desire is unvirtuous or that women who've had sex are impure. Your description of the doctrine is incorrect. You may think the actual Catholic (and Protestant) teachings about contraception are incorrect too, but that's another issue.

There are different estimates of the failure rate of NFP, depending on who's doing the numbers and which method or combination of methods you're talking about. Planned Parenthood calls it between 12% and 24%. Assuming that's accurate, the better methods are only slightly less effective than the Pill, which according to Quash's link has a failure rate of 9%. I'm not arguing that NFP is the optimal method in terms of pregnancy prevention. I find it advantageous for its lack of harmful side effects, both medical and moral.
The Church does, however, teach that use of contraception is immoral. Coke Bear calls NFP a "moral" form of family planning. But most Americans and most Catholics do not believe a woman or couple's decision to use an effective form of contraception is immoral.

Trying to impose the Church's view that God should and must make the decision regarding whether every single sex act will result in a pregnancy is not congruent with separation of church and state. While I disagree with your beliefs, they would not bother me nearly so much if the Church has not and did not still advocate their implementation as government policy with the force of law.

Sadly, what it's taken to end that, in Ireland at least, is evidence of the fact that the Church was perfectly willing to police the bedrooms of its members, but not its priests or of its institutions for children or for unwed mothers. A vigorous interest in life in the womb becomes considerably less credible when people learn that the children of unwed mothers who weren't sold away from their mothers in Irish institutions were starved, abused, received abysmal medical treatment, and were dumped in mass graves after they died of curable childhood illnesses, all because they were considered inferior children of sin, and that mothers who bore children out of wedlock were essentially enslaved. THAT is why Ireland voted itself out from under canon law--because it protects the Church and covers over the sins of its priests, nuns and employees, while condemning married couples for wanting to have sex without fear of a pregnancy resulting. If Church officials and members would acknowledge and atone for this level of hypocrisy and actually do something about it instead of doing everything it possibly can to avoid the criminal consequences that should result from such abuse or paying child support (in the cases of priests who fathered children), that would make things a little better. But, instead, the Church demands a level of morality from ordinary parishioners it does not require of its leaders.

So, IMO, the Church has certainly lost any moral authority it might assert to non-Catholics, and Catholics, rather than preaching to protestants about the immorality of contraception, should be demanding that priests and Church leadership be accountable for THEIR sins instead of holding the rest of the world accountable while excusing, ignoring and hiding their own transgressions.
America is not a Catholic country. Our laws and opinions for and against contraception have never been based on Catholic dogma. I'm not even sure why we're talking about Catholicism. As for the Church and its moral authority, I really don't think any sort of atonement will improve your opinion unless you understand what the Church teaches and why.
The Catholic Church has never been a bastion of morality or moral authority. It's a political animal with the purpose of amassing wealth.


The billions of dollars distributed to the worlds poor via Catholic Charities ?
Ok. How many billions of dollars were distributed to the worlds poor via Catholic Charities? Does anyone really know, other than the elite within the church? Certainly they give something, in order to justify the fleecing of its parishioners. The Church no doubt is one of the wealthiest, if not the wealthiest institution in the world. There is no transparency to the Catholic Church. I wonder why?


Fella you are beyond bitter.

Catholic Charities has been aiding the poor world wide for a very long time. Even here in northern Colorado they are one of the very few agencies that routinely aid the homeless and hungry . In the fall and winter I volunteer at the local homeless service center. Part of the budget is provided by Catholic Charities. They also provide the relief mission in Greeley and Fort Collins.

Fleece the parishioners ? chuckle

Never fear fella, you are too 'clever' to be fleeced by the 'elite' involved with Catholic Charities.
My point is that giving back a penance compared to the enormous wealth the Church amasses is part of their business model. It keeps people like you engaged, and giving of your money and time. I think it would be shocking how little the Church gives back as a percentage of its income, much less overall wealth. Our public and news media becomes enraged when it is exposed how little charities such as Red Cross give back. I would speculate those charities most criticized would pale up against the Catholic Church. Can you tell me how much of the Church's wealth or income is given back to the homeless and hungry?


You are the one making the incredibly vicious accusations.

Back up your own claims. Or is it more self gratifying to hate without reason ?

In addition....name me just 2 non governmental organizations that do MORE for the poor world wide than Catholic Charities.

I've never even heard of one that comes anywhere close.
Clearly there is a lot of evil within the Church to go along with whatever it decides to allocate to charity.


Wrong....completely wrong.

There was is no evil within the Catholic Church. There have been a few bad individuals throughout the years.....but no more than with any other large organization.

And the good the Church has done throughout the years is massive.

Please tell me which atheist organizations have aided the world's poor anything approaching Catholic Charities ?

You can't because there arent any.

Over and over you attempt to mock or demean other people's faith . Amusing at times because you always declare your biases as ' true ' .

Hate to break it to ya fella....but merely because it's your opinion.....doesn't make it 'true'.

My family deeply enjoys our faith, the Catholic Church and the various social work through the Church.

Enjoy your atheism fella......it's all fine.


"There is no evil within the Catholic Church" - but this report contains a sickening account of lots of evil: http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/local/report-on-pennsylvania-church-sex-abuse/2319/
This article (toghether with hundreds of others) documents there is no ethical, moral, or financial accountability either within the Catholic Church.
Waco1947
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300 Pennsylvania Catholic pedophil priests called. They said you're wrong about evil.
Waco1947
Canada2017
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Old fella....you are so full of hate it's almost fun to watch you rot with it.

bubbadog
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Canada2017 said:

Old fella....you are so full of hate it's almost fun to watch you rot with it.


Now THAT right there is some irony.
Waco1947
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Show me your gentlemanly comments to me young feller.
Waco1947
Waco1947
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Fact ain't hate. 300 sounds evil to me. You went out on the evil limb not me. Now you're hurt by the truth.
Waco1947
Canada2017
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Waco1947 said:

Fact ain't hate. 300 sounds evil to me. You went out on the evil limb not me. Now you're hurt by the truth.


Not in the least 'hurt'....you don't remotely have that ability.

But over the years you have repeatedly shown.....

You hate Catholics.
You hate Anglo culture.
You hate the current POTUS
But most of all you hate yourself . Your self loathing emerges through a significant number of your comments.

Have long assumed you are suffering from some form of dementia. Must be difficult.

Waco1947
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Canada2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

Fact ain't hate. 300 sounds evil to me. You went out on the evil limb not me. Now you're hurt by the truth.


Not in the least 'hurt'....you don't remotely have that ability.

But over the years you have repeatedly shown.....

You hate Catholics.
You hate Anglo culture.
You hate the current POTUS
But most of all you hate yourself . Your self loathing emerges through a significant number of your comments.

Have long assumed you are suffering from some form of dementia. Must be difficult.


. Well, bless your heart Did you get it all out because now it goes to the moderators. Slander and personal attacks should be forbidden.
"We expect civility and respect towards fellow posters but you will find that we allow people to state their opinions with looser moderation standards on there. Many people view the free forums as entertainment and a place to vent, and we allow the boards to take on their own culture as the community shapes over time, but we do step in and moderate as needed. " Moderators.
Waco1947
Florda_mike
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Waco1947 said:

Canada2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

Fact ain't hate. 300 sounds evil to me. You went out on the evil limb not me. Now you're hurt by the truth.


Not in the least 'hurt'....you don't remotely have that ability.

But over the years you have repeatedly shown.....

You hate Catholics.
You hate Anglo culture.
You hate the current POTUS
But most of all you hate yourself . Your self loathing emerges through a significant number of your comments.

Have long assumed you are suffering from some form of dementia. Must be difficult.


. Well, bless your heart Did you get it all out because now it goes to the moderators. Slander and personal attacks should be forbidden.
"We expect civility and respect towards fellow posters but you will find that we allow people to state their opinions with looser moderation standards on there. Many people view the free forums as entertainment and a place to vent, and we allow the boards to take on their own culture as the community shapes over time, but we do step in and moderate as needed. " Moderators.
Forest Bueller
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They need to remove the celibacy clause for Catholic Priests. They should be able to marry.

There are about 450,000 Priests worldwide. That said, their numbers are nothing unusual.





Quote:

The Catholic sex-abuse stories emerging every day suggest that Catholics have a much bigger problem with child molestation than other denominations and the general population. Many point to peculiarities of the Catholic Church (its celibacy rules for priests, its insular hierarchy, its exclusion of women) to infer that there's something particularly pernicious about Catholic clerics that predisposes them to these horrific acts. It's no wonder that, back in 2002when the last Catholic sex-abuse scandal was making headlinesa Wall Street Journal-NBC News poll found that 64 percent of those queried thought Catholic priests "frequently'' abused children.

Yet experts say there's simply no data to support the claim at all. No formal comparative study has ever broken down child sexual abuse by denomination, and only the Catholic Church has released detailed data about its own. But based on the surveys and studies conducted by different denominations over the past 30 years, experts who study child abuse say they see little reason to conclude that sexual abuse is mostly a Catholic issue. "We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."



Humans at their core are sin riddled, it is just that way. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9.



I have issues with plenty of the Catholic church's specific teachings, but they got Baylored on this issue.


The UM church if a study were done on it, is just as bad, as would be the Orthodox church, Baptist, Disciples, The Jewish faith etc. The human condition......is not that we are all good by nature, but that our heart is desperately wicked by nature.


Quote:

The only hard data that has been made public by any denomination comes from John Jay College's study of Catholic priests, which was authorized and is being paid for by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops following the public outcry over the 2002 scandals. Limiting their study to plausible accusations made between 1950 and 1992, John Jay researchers reported that about 4 percent of the 110,000 priests active during those years had been accused of sexual misconduct involving children. Specifically, 4,392 complaints (ranging from "sexual talk" to rape) were made against priests by 10,667 victims. (Reports made after 2002, including those of incidents that occurred years earlier, are released as part of the church's annual audits.)


4% or 6% or whatever percent is way too many, but pointing fingers at the Catholic church? I've attended Methodist churches, Baptist church's. Christian church's, Non Denominational, the church of Christ, even a Jehovah's witness once with a girl that dragged to me church, shoot she got me to go twice. Those church's though not called out, have the same issues.


The article was from Newsweek.
GoneGirl
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Forest Bueller said:

They need to remove the celibacy clause for Catholic Priests. They should be able to marry.

There are about 450,000 Priests worldwide. That said, their numbers are nothing unusual.





Quote:

The Catholic sex-abuse stories emerging every day suggest that Catholics have a much bigger problem with child molestation than other denominations and the general population. Many point to peculiarities of the Catholic Church (its celibacy rules for priests, its insular hierarchy, its exclusion of women) to infer that there's something particularly pernicious about Catholic clerics that predisposes them to these horrific acts. It's no wonder that, back in 2002when the last Catholic sex-abuse scandal was making headlinesa Wall Street Journal-NBC News poll found that 64 percent of those queried thought Catholic priests "frequently'' abused children.

Yet experts say there's simply no data to support the claim at all. No formal comparative study has ever broken down child sexual abuse by denomination, and only the Catholic Church has released detailed data about its own. But based on the surveys and studies conducted by different denominations over the past 30 years, experts who study child abuse say they see little reason to conclude that sexual abuse is mostly a Catholic issue. "We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."



Humans at their core are sin riddled, it is just that way. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9.



I have issues with plenty of the Catholic church's specific teachings, but they got Baylored on this issue.

The UM church if a study were done on it, is just as bad, as would be the Orthodox church, Baptist, Disciples, The Jewish faith etc. The human condition......is not that we are all good by nature, but that our heart is desperately wicked by nature.

The article was from Newsweek.

Removing the celibacy clause won't stop pedophiles from entering the priesthood because they will have access to children as trusted religious leaders.

It might or might not stop older priests who are closeted gay men from preying on younger men entering the priesthood, as Cardinal McCarrick did.

It might or might not stop priests from fathering out of wedlock children. One of the things in that report that shocked me was a priest's affair with a 17-year-old girl, who then had to ASK the parish to give the son she gave birth to free tuition to the local Catholic school. (They did, even though they made it sounds like a great favor.) The worst incident is the one in which a priest raped a boy so hard he suffered a permanent back injury and died in his 30s of addiction to the pain killers he took for the back pain. Another of that priest's victims realized what was about to happen and jumped up and ran out of the room naked, realizing that embarrassment was better than the physical injury he would otherwise suffer. A man who will do that to a child is not going to be helped by the ability to marry a woman. I don't care if the statute of limitations has run out on that priest; if he's still alive, he should be behind bars.
Canada2017
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Waco1947 said:

Canada2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

Fact ain't hate. 300 sounds evil to me. You went out on the evil limb not me. Now you're hurt by the truth.


Not in the least 'hurt'....you don't remotely have that ability.

But over the years you have repeatedly shown.....

You hate Catholics.
You hate Anglo culture.
You hate the current POTUS
But most of all you hate yourself . Your self loathing emerges through a significant number of your comments.

Have long assumed you are suffering from some form of dementia. Must be difficult.


. Well, bless your heart Did you get it all out because now it goes to the moderators. Slander and personal attacks should be forbidden.
"We expect civility and respect towards fellow posters but you will find that we allow people to state their opinions with looser moderation standards on there. Many people view the free forums as entertainment and a place to vent, and we allow the boards to take on their own culture as the community shapes over time, but we do step in and moderate as needed. " Moderators.


With all the broad judgments and attacks you dish out....would have never guessed you would be so 'hurt' by a rather obvious accounting of your posting history.

What a double standard you desire.

Waco1947
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We, Methodists, have our issues for sure. We are required to be re certified on sexual moral misconduct, harassment and assault every five years.
Evil exists in our midst but we train and we hold accountable.
Waco1947
Forest Bueller
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Jinx 2 said:

Forest Bueller said:

They need to remove the celibacy clause for Catholic Priests. They should be able to marry.

There are about 450,000 Priests worldwide. That said, their numbers are nothing unusual.





Quote:

The Catholic sex-abuse stories emerging every day suggest that Catholics have a much bigger problem with child molestation than other denominations and the general population. Many point to peculiarities of the Catholic Church (its celibacy rules for priests, its insular hierarchy, its exclusion of women) to infer that there's something particularly pernicious about Catholic clerics that predisposes them to these horrific acts. It's no wonder that, back in 2002when the last Catholic sex-abuse scandal was making headlinesa Wall Street Journal-NBC News poll found that 64 percent of those queried thought Catholic priests "frequently'' abused children.

Yet experts say there's simply no data to support the claim at all. No formal comparative study has ever broken down child sexual abuse by denomination, and only the Catholic Church has released detailed data about its own. But based on the surveys and studies conducted by different denominations over the past 30 years, experts who study child abuse say they see little reason to conclude that sexual abuse is mostly a Catholic issue. "We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."



Humans at their core are sin riddled, it is just that way. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9.



I have issues with plenty of the Catholic church's specific teachings, but they got Baylored on this issue.

The UM church if a study were done on it, is just as bad, as would be the Orthodox church, Baptist, Disciples, The Jewish faith etc. The human condition......is not that we are all good by nature, but that our heart is desperately wicked by nature.

The article was from Newsweek.

Removing the celibacy clause won't stop pedophiles from entering the priesthood because they will have access to children as trusted religious leaders.

It might or might not stop older priests who are closeted gay men from preying on younger men entering the priesthood, as Cardinal McCarrick did.

It might or might not stop priests from fathering out of wedlock children. One of the things in that report that shocked me was a priest's affair with a 17-year-old girl, who then had to ASK the parish to give the son she gave birth to free tuition to the local Catholic school. (They did, even though they made it sounds like a great favor.) The worst incident is the one in which a priest raped a boy so hard he suffered a permanent back injury and died in his 30s of addiction to the pain killers he took for the back pain. Another of that priest's victims realized what was about to happen and jumped up and ran out of the room naked, realizing that embarrassment was better than the physical injury he would otherwise suffer. A man who will do that to a child is not going to be helped by the ability to marry a woman. I don't care if the statute of limitations has run out on that priest; if he's still alive, he should be behind bars.
Yes, if you read my post Jinx you can see that I understand the Catholic church does NOT have a sex abuse problem more than any other church. That the Celibacy clause is not the overriding issue.

I just think it is unnatural to demand a man not be married, and excludes guys who want a natural relationship with a woman. The big thing is getting rid of the clause would open up Priesthood to many more men that without the clause, would be interested in the clergy.
Forest Bueller
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Yes, our church makes you go through a "child safe" certification program. to even be around kids.

But, even with that said, this issue is a pervasive issue. The child doesn't tell and the adult certainly doesn't tell. All forms of certification or accountability do not work, for evil that goes on in secret.
Forest Bueller
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Waco1947 said:

We, Methodists, have our issues for sure. We are required to be re certified on sexual moral misconduct, harassment and assault every five years.
Evil exists in our midst but we train and we hold accountable.
Sorry 47, the post above this one was meant to speak to this post.
Waco1947
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Forest Bueller said:

Yes, our church makes you go through a "child safe" certification program. to even be around kids.

But, even with that said, this issue is a pervasive issue. The child doesn't tell and the adult certainly doesn't tell. All forms of certification or accountability do not work, for evil that goes on in secret.

Yes it does. So we require windows on all doors, background checks, and two adults not related with the kids at all times. We call it Safe Sanctuary Training .
Waco1947
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I'm not sure celibacy and non marriage are the issue. A pedophile is a pedophile is a oedophile - married, gay, straight, not married.
With all clergy we used live in a culture of trust with pastors, priests, youth workers etc. we were naive. Pedophiles seek out Catholic Churches for easy and trusting access to children not because of non marriage and sexual frustration.
TexasScientist
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Jinx 2 said:

Forest Bueller said:

They need to remove the celibacy clause for Catholic Priests. They should be able to marry.

There are about 450,000 Priests worldwide. That said, their numbers are nothing unusual.





Quote:

The Catholic sex-abuse stories emerging every day suggest that Catholics have a much bigger problem with child molestation than other denominations and the general population. Many point to peculiarities of the Catholic Church (its celibacy rules for priests, its insular hierarchy, its exclusion of women) to infer that there's something particularly pernicious about Catholic clerics that predisposes them to these horrific acts. It's no wonder that, back in 2002when the last Catholic sex-abuse scandal was making headlinesa Wall Street Journal-NBC News poll found that 64 percent of those queried thought Catholic priests "frequently'' abused children.

Yet experts say there's simply no data to support the claim at all. No formal comparative study has ever broken down child sexual abuse by denomination, and only the Catholic Church has released detailed data about its own. But based on the surveys and studies conducted by different denominations over the past 30 years, experts who study child abuse say they see little reason to conclude that sexual abuse is mostly a Catholic issue. "We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."



Humans at their core are sin riddled, it is just that way. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9.



I have issues with plenty of the Catholic church's specific teachings, but they got Baylored on this issue.

The UM church if a study were done on it, is just as bad, as would be the Orthodox church, Baptist, Disciples, The Jewish faith etc. The human condition......is not that we are all good by nature, but that our heart is desperately wicked by nature.

The article was from Newsweek.

Removing the celibacy clause won't stop pedophiles from entering the priesthood because they will have access to children as trusted religious leaders.

It might or might not stop older priests who are closeted gay men from preying on younger men entering the priesthood, as Cardinal McCarrick did.

It might or might not stop priests from fathering out of wedlock children. One of the things in that report that shocked me was a priest's affair with a 17-year-old girl, who then had to ASK the parish to give the son she gave birth to free tuition to the local Catholic school. (They did, even though they made it sounds like a great favor.) The worst incident is the one in which a priest raped a boy so hard he suffered a permanent back injury and died in his 30s of addiction to the pain killers he took for the back pain. Another of that priest's victims realized what was about to happen and jumped up and ran out of the room naked, realizing that embarrassment was better than the physical injury he would otherwise suffer. A man who will do that to a child is not going to be helped by the ability to marry a woman. I don't care if the statute of limitations has run out on that priest; if he's still alive, he should be behind bars.
Most likely they transferred him to another parish to continue to victimize. Your right, ability to marry won't stop them. Pedophiles seek a position of trust with access to their prey. That's why so many are drawn to the priesthood. It gives them cover, and likely solace if they are struggling with their deviance.
Sam Lowry
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Waco1947 said:

Canada "There was is no evil within the Catholic Church. There have been a few bad individuals throughout the years.....but no more than with any other large organization"
The Medieval Age called. They left this message
Aaron Edwards
93.8k views 10 items
You might say the Catholic Church was the glue that held medieval Europe together. Unfortunately, that glue got a kick out of instigating campaigns of terror and death in the name of the big man on the throne in the sky. Executions ordered by popes or carried out in his name by Church authorities were not a civilized affair. Indeed, Vatican execution methods often involved long stretches of humiliation and torture in the build up to some of the most horrific deaths you can fathom. Heretical thoughts were serious business to Church leaders, so they dealt with them in the most serious ways they could. That seriousness brought about sadism and terror that's still a black mark against the intuition.

Who was persecuted? Jews, Muslims, accused witches, and really anyone who didn't conform to the Church's beliefs. Catholic Inquisition executions were often carried out by and at the discretion of friars or other minor religious authorities, acting on behalf of popes or monarchs. So, better not to piss off anyone associated with the Church, lest they elect to slice you to ribbons in the name of God. During this time you also had executions in Papal States, over which the Vatican held dominion.

Some free advice: if you end up time traveling to Europe between, say, the fall of Rome and 1700 or so, try not to piss off any Catholics. If you, it's possible one of these brutal execution methods awaits you.

Aaron Jones
The Christian emperors of Rome were the first to conduct something like an Inquisition. For the first 1000 years after Christ, the Church was mostly opposed to enforcing religious beliefs via secular penalties. This began to change with the Manichaean and Cathar heresies, but the driving forces were the secular rulers and the populus rather than the Church. The beginning of the medieval Inquisition came in 1231 when the Church adopted two provisions directly from the imperial law into the ecclesiastical law.

By this time the practices of secular rulers and vindictive mobs were already far more severe than the Church would ever be. Torture was common practice; the only innovation of the Inquisition in this regard was to impose strict limits on it. In retrospect it was probably a mistake for the Church to participate at all, but its main purpose was to impose some rational order on already existing conflicts. For example, the Inquisition saved countless lives by exposing superstitions and quelling popular fears of witchcraft. In contrast, tens of thousands of accused witches perished in Protestant countries without the mitigating influence of Catholic ecclesiastical courts.

The most notorious Inquisition, in Spain, was instigated by the monarchs following a period of anti-Jewish riots and subsequent mass conversion of Jews to Christianity. Violence against Jews was periodic and as likely to be carried out by Muslims as by Christians (see for example the Cordoba and Grenada massacres of 1013 and 1066). The pope initially gave his blessing, though he had little control. Even so, your hypothetical time traveler would probably have been safer because of the Inquisition.
Forest Bueller
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Waco1947 said:

I'm not sure celibacy and non marriage are the issue. A pedophile is a pedophile is a oedophile - married, gay, straight, not married.
With all clergy we used live in a culture of trust with pastors, priests, youth workers etc. we were naive. Pedophiles seek out Catholic Churches for easy and trusting access to children not because of non marriage and sexual frustration.
I didn't mean for that to be taken as the issue, it is not, but opening up the Priesthood to married men, would probably make the pool of qualified men who could be Priest by 80 to 90 percent. That would be a very good thing.
Forest Bueller
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Forest Bueller said:

Waco1947 said:

I'm not sure celibacy and non marriage are the issue. A pedophile is a pedophile is a oedophile - married, gay, straight, not married.
With all clergy we used live in a culture of trust with pastors, priests, youth workers etc. we were naive. Pedophiles seek out Catholic Churches for easy and trusting access to children not because of non marriage and sexual frustration.
I didn't mean for that to be taken as the issue, it is not, but opening up the Priesthood to married men, would probably make the pool of qualified men who could be Priest by 80 to 90 percent. That would be a very good thing.

I don't believe in any way being a married man should disqualify you from serving God in the Priesthood.

And, I didn't mean to reply to myself either.

TexasScientist
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Sam Lowry said:

Waco1947 said:

Canada "There was is no evil within the Catholic Church. There have been a few bad individuals throughout the years.....but no more than with any other large organization"
The Medieval Age called. They left this message
Aaron Edwards
93.8k views 10 items
You might say the Catholic Church was the glue that held medieval Europe together. Unfortunately, that glue got a kick out of instigating campaigns of terror and death in the name of the big man on the throne in the sky. Executions ordered by popes or carried out in his name by Church authorities were not a civilized affair. Indeed, Vatican execution methods often involved long stretches of humiliation and torture in the build up to some of the most horrific deaths you can fathom. Heretical thoughts were serious business to Church leaders, so they dealt with them in the most serious ways they could. That seriousness brought about sadism and terror that's still a black mark against the intuition.

Who was persecuted? Jews, Muslims, accused witches, and really anyone who didn't conform to the Church's beliefs. Catholic Inquisition executions were often carried out by and at the discretion of friars or other minor religious authorities, acting on behalf of popes or monarchs. So, better not to piss off anyone associated with the Church, lest they elect to slice you to ribbons in the name of God. During this time you also had executions in Papal States, over which the Vatican held dominion.

Some free advice: if you end up time traveling to Europe between, say, the fall of Rome and 1700 or so, try not to piss off any Catholics. If you, it's possible one of these brutal execution methods awaits you.

Aaron Jones
The Christian emperors of Rome were the first to conduct something like an Inquisition. For the first 1000 years after Christ, the Church was mostly opposed to enforcing religious beliefs via secular penalties. This began to change with the Manichean and Cathar heresies, but the driving forces were the secular rulers and the populus rather than the Church. The beginning of the medieval Inquisition came in 1231 when the Church adopted two provisions directly from the imperial law into the ecclesiastical law.

By this time the practices of secular rulers and vindictive mobs were already far more severe than the Church would ever be. Torture was common practice; the only innovation of the Inquisition in this regard was to impose strict limits on it. In retrospect it was probably a mistake for the Church to participate at all, but its main purpose was to impose some rational order on already existing conflicts. For example, the Inquisition saved countless lives by exposing superstitions and quelling popular fears of witchcraft. In contrast, tens of thousands of accused witches perished in Protestant countries without the mitigating influence of Catholic ecclesiastical courts.

The most notorious Inquisition, in Spain, was instigated by the monarchs following a period of anti-Jewish riots and subsequent mass conversion of Jews to Christianity. Violence against Jews was periodic and as likely to be carried out by Muslims as by Christians (see for the example the Cordoba and Grenada massacres of 1013 and 1066). The pope initially gave his blessing to the Inquisition, but he had little control over it. Even so, your hypothetical time traveler would probably have been safer because it existed.
Nice whitewash of the Church. Why does a pope need to have control over it after giving his blessing? How does lack of control absolve the pope? Clearly the Church had a roll in the Inquisition. Don't overlook the common denominator to the Inqusition, which is that it is religious based and inspired.
Sam Lowry
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TexasScientist said:

Nice whitewash of the Church. Why does a pope need to have control over it after giving his blessing? How does lack of control absolve the pope? Clearly the Church had a roll in the Inquisition. Don't overlook the common denominator to the Inqusition, which is that it is religious based and inspired.
I don't see anyone arguing the Church didn't have a role (or a list of names or a lump of bread, for that matter).

The Inquisition was based on politics, which in turn was based on Christianity. Other governments have based their politics on materialism, with far worse results. Every culture has a religion of some kind.
Coke Bear
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Forest Bueller said:

I didn't mean for that to be taken as the issue, it is not, but opening up the Priesthood to married men, would probably make the pool of qualified men who could be Priest by 80 to 90 percent. That would be a very good thing.

This is true. The Eastern rites of the Church and the Orthodox allow married priests. Actually, the Latin or Roman rite allows for married priests who convert from Anglicanism to remain married and serve the Church.

Married priests (Roman, Eastern rites or Orthodox) may not be called to be a Bishop.

I like the tradition (discipline) of celibate priest. The demands of a priest are great. At our church, he says mass 7 days a week. On Sunday's he has three masses. He has office hours Tue-Fri. He has to be available for weddings, funeral, visits to the sick for Last Rites. It's difficult to balance the demands of a family and serving God.


Because this is a discipline, not doctrine or dogma, the Pope could change this tomorrow if he wanted to.
GoneGirl
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Canada2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

Fact ain't hate. 300 sounds evil to me. You went out on the evil limb not me. Now you're hurt by the truth.


Not in the least 'hurt'....you don't remotely have that ability.

But over the years you have repeatedly shown.....

You hate Catholics.
You hate Anglo culture.
You hate the current POTUS
But most of all you hate yourself . Your self loathing emerges through a significant number of your comments.

Have long assumed you are suffering from some form of dementia. Must be difficult.


I'd like to see you talk about what you like or hate rather than telling us all how you think Waco feels.

Ever heard the expression "hate the sin but love the sinner"?

You can love Catholics and aspects of the Church while, at the same time, hating a culture that allowed priests and bishops to cover up physical and sexual abuse of children and women by priests--and even by priests toward other priests--for decades. None of the Catholics I know condone child abuse and cover-ups. All support good education, health care, prayer and contemplation, and many other services Catholic parishes provide--which, in my city, include refugee resettlement. Will they step in and force the Church to change? I don't know. Denial is one of the most powerful human traits.

I grew up in the "Anglo culture" of the deep South. There are many things I love about that--an emphasis on manners and courtesy, good food, a culture of community service. I can love those while also recognizing that the Georgia towns I grew up in were not very kind and hospitable to the half of our population who were African Americans. Their segregated schools were in old run-down buildings and equipped with outdated textbooks and broken furniture cast off by the white schools. They couldn't buy houses in any neighborhood I'd have considered decent. Neighborhoods where they could buy houses were 'red-lined" so no bank would provide mortgage financing. Their educational and job opportunities were limited. And police didn't protect them; in fact, police and sherriff's departments created an unofficial pipeline through which black men were effectively conscripted to work for free by being arrested for some bogus charged like loitering and then leased to companies that literally worked them to death. A graveyard of men and boys worked to death in this fashion was just discovered in Sugarland, Texas. People wonder why African Americans don't trust the police; I'd guess by this time that distrust is part of their DNA--the "self-preservation" part. And lynching were common during the first half of the 20th century. You can love your family and your culture while acknowledging its abuses and working to make sure they stop.

As for hating the current POTUS, I can't speak for Waco, but Donald Trump isn't worthy of hate. Disgust probably best describes how I feel about him and his administration. He's pitiful but also powerful: a bully, a blowhard whose ego is so fragile he fixates on things like the size of the crowd at his inauguration. he's treated the presidency like a reality show: "You're fired!" or "Your security clearance is yanked!" What he hasn't done is run the government; his staff, what there is of it, is doing that for him--at least the ones who are capable and the ones who aren't busily chartering planes at taxpayer expense and sending government-salaried staff to the dry cleaners.

I don't feel hate; I feel shame--the our once proud country is represented on the global stage by a third-rate reality TV star with an oversized ego who is clueless about what his job really entails and thinks Americans are too stupid to understand that he owes Putin money and Putin's expecting him to pay up, like all crime bosses do.
Canada2017
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Jinx 2 said:

Canada2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

Fact ain't hate. 300 sounds evil to me. You went out on the evil limb not me. Now you're hurt by the truth.


Not in the least 'hurt'....you don't remotely have that ability.

But over the years you have repeatedly shown.....

You hate Catholics.
You hate Anglo culture.
You hate the current POTUS
But most of all you hate yourself . Your self loathing emerges through a significant number of your comments.

Have long assumed you are suffering from some form of dementia. Must be difficult.


I'd like to see you talk about what you like or hate rather than telling us all how you think Waco feels.

Ever heard the expression "hate the sin but love the sinner"?

You can love Catholics and aspects of the Church while, at the same time, hating a culture that allowed priests and bishops to cover up physical and sexual abuse of children and women by priests--and even by priests toward other priests--for decades. None of the Catholics I know condone child abuse and cover-ups. All support good education, health care, prayer and contemplation, and many other services Catholic parishes provide--which, in my city, include refugee resettlement. Will they step in and force the Church to change? I don't know. Denial is one of the most powerful human traits.

I grew up in the "Anglo culture" of the deep South. There are many things I love about that--an emphasis on manners and courtesy, good food, a culture of community service. I can love those while also recognizing that the Georgia towns I grew up in were not very kind and hospitable to the half of our population who were African Americans. Their segregated schools were in old run-down buildings and equipped with outdated textbooks and broken furniture cast off by the white schools. They couldn't buy houses in any neighborhood I'd have considered decent. Neighborhoods where they could buy houses were 'red-lined" so no bank would provide mortgage financing. Their educational and job opportunities were limited. And police didn't protect them; in fact, police and sherriff's departments created an unofficial pipeline through which black men were effectively conscripted to work for free by being arrested for some bogus charged like loitering and then leased to companies that literally worked them to death. A graveyard of men and boys worked to death in this fashion was just discovered in Sugarland, Texas. People wonder why African Americans don't trust the police; I'd guess by this time that distrust is part of their DNA--the "self-preservation" part. And lynching were common during the first half of the 20th century. You can love your family and your culture while acknowledging its abuses and working to make sure they stop.

As for hating the current POTUS, I can't speak for Waco, but Donald Trump isn't worthy of hate. Disgust probably best describes how I feel about him and his administration. He's pitiful but also powerful: a bully, a blowhard whose ego is so fragile he fixates on things like the size of the crowd at his inauguration. he's treated the presidency like a reality show: "You're fired!" or "Your security clearance is yanked!" What he hasn't done is run the government; his staff, what there is of it, is doing that for him--at least the ones who are capable and the ones who aren't busily chartering planes at taxpayer expense and sending government-salaried staff to the dry cleaners.

I don't feel hate; I feel shame--the our once proud country is represented on the global stage by a third-rate reality TV star with an oversized ego who is clueless about what his job really entails and thinks Americans are too stupid to understand that he owes Putin money and Putin's expecting him to pay up, like all crime bosses do.


Didn't bother to read this latest installment of your auto biography.

Why ?


1. Because you have a long history of ( backhandedly ) bashing Catholics.

2. An even longer history ( back to BFANS no less ) of constantly feeling sorry for yourself .

3. Sincerely consider you emotionally unstable . Not to the dementia level of suffering like poor ol 47......but I'd wager you've been on and off anti-depressants for many years.

Goodnight
GoneGirl
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Canada2017 said:

Jinx 2 said:

Canada2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

Fact ain't hate. 300 sounds evil to me. You went out on the evil limb not me. Now you're hurt by the truth.


Not in the least 'hurt'....you don't remotely have that ability.

But over the years you have repeatedly shown.....

You hate Catholics.
You hate Anglo culture.
You hate the current POTUS
But most of all you hate yourself . Your self loathing emerges through a significant number of your comments.

Have long assumed you are suffering from some form of dementia. Must be difficult.


I'd like to see you talk about what you like or hate rather than telling us all how you think Waco feels.

Ever heard the expression "hate the sin but love the sinner"?

You can love Catholics and aspects of the Church while, at the same time, hating a culture that allowed priests and bishops to cover up physical and sexual abuse of children and women by priests--and even by priests toward other priests--for decades. None of the Catholics I know condone child abuse and cover-ups. All support good education, health care, prayer and contemplation, and many other services Catholic parishes provide--which, in my city, include refugee resettlement. Will they step in and force the Church to change? I don't know. Denial is one of the most powerful human traits.

I grew up in the "Anglo culture" of the deep South. There are many things I love about that--an emphasis on manners and courtesy, good food, a culture of community service. I can love those while also recognizing that the Georgia towns I grew up in were not very kind and hospitable to the half of our population who were African Americans. Their segregated schools were in old run-down buildings and equipped with outdated textbooks and broken furniture cast off by the white schools. They couldn't buy houses in any neighborhood I'd have considered decent. Neighborhoods where they could buy houses were 'red-lined" so no bank would provide mortgage financing. Their educational and job opportunities were limited. And police didn't protect them; in fact, police and sherriff's departments created an unofficial pipeline through which black men were effectively conscripted to work for free by being arrested for some bogus charged like loitering and then leased to companies that literally worked them to death. A graveyard of men and boys worked to death in this fashion was just discovered in Sugarland, Texas. People wonder why African Americans don't trust the police; I'd guess by this time that distrust is part of their DNA--the "self-preservation" part. And lynching were common during the first half of the 20th century. You can love your family and your culture while acknowledging its abuses and working to make sure they stop.

As for hating the current POTUS, I can't speak for Waco, but Donald Trump isn't worthy of hate. Disgust probably best describes how I feel about him and his administration. He's pitiful but also powerful: a bully, a blowhard whose ego is so fragile he fixates on things like the size of the crowd at his inauguration. he's treated the presidency like a reality show: "You're fired!" or "Your security clearance is yanked!" What he hasn't done is run the government; his staff, what there is of it, is doing that for him--at least the ones who are capable and the ones who aren't busily chartering planes at taxpayer expense and sending government-salaried staff to the dry cleaners.

I don't feel hate; I feel shame--the our once proud country is represented on the global stage by a third-rate reality TV star with an oversized ego who is clueless about what his job really entails and thinks Americans are too stupid to understand that he owes Putin money and Putin's expecting him to pay up, like all crime bosses do.


Didn't bother to read this latest installment of your auto biography.

Why ?


1. Because you have a long history of ( backhandedly ) bashing Catholics.

2. An even longer history ( back to BFANS no less ) of constantly feeling sorry for yourself .

3. Sincerely consider you emotionally unstable . Not to the dementia level of suffering like poor ol 47......but I'd wager you've been on and off anti-depressants for many years.

Goodnight
Canada, I don't need to "bash Catholics." The Catholic bureaucracy's system of covering up child abuse and moving the abusers from parish to parish sends a clear message: Until now, the church's image mattered more to Church leaders than the lives and safety of the children in its congregations. Will that change? Not if parishioners adopt your unapologetic attitude or continue to engage in denial about what happened and their role in allowing it to persist.

You don't post on this forum to talk TO people. You post here to talk down to people. You're one of the posters who metes out lots of personal abuse without really contributing to the discussion. You might try taking some of the guns you're so proud of to the shooting range more often as a better outlet for your aggression.

I'm putting you on ignore, and I hope Waco will, too. He's the current whipping boy on this site for guys like you, and that's just mean and tiresome.
TexasScientist
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Some people can't tolerate expression of any view contrary to their own, and they are hypocritical when it comes to politics. If Obama, or Bush behaved like Trump, Trump supporters would be railing against either of them. They quickly condemned Bill Clinton for his behavior, which pales in comparison to Trump's. They said Clinton was unworthy of the office, despite whether you liked his policies. Conduct in office should be an overriding factor. There is a lot of hypocrisy in Trump supporters. Bush and Obama, whether you liked their policies or not, conducted themselves with dignity.
Forest Bueller
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TexasScientist said:

Some people can't tolerate expression of any view contrary to their own, and they are hypocritical when it comes to politics. If Obama, or Bush behaved like Trump, Trump supporters would be railing against either of them. They quickly condemned Bill Clinton for his behavior, which pales in comparison to Trump's. They said Clinton was unworthy of the office, despite whether you liked his policies. Conduct in office should be an overriding factor. There is a lot of hypocrisy in Trump supporters. Bush and Obama, whether you liked their policies or not, conducted themselves with dignity.
Pretty solid post really. Trump isn't going to conduct himself with dignity. I will say though you can dislike his antics and morals without expecting him to lose the office of the President.

TexasScientist
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Forest Bueller said:

TexasScientist said:

Some people can't tolerate expression of any view contrary to their own, and they are hypocritical when it comes to politics. If Obama, or Bush behaved like Trump, Trump supporters would be railing against either of them. They quickly condemned Bill Clinton for his behavior, which pales in comparison to Trump's. They said Clinton was unworthy of the office, despite whether you liked his policies. Conduct in office should be an overriding factor. There is a lot of hypocrisy in Trump supporters. Bush and Obama, whether you liked their policies or not, conducted themselves with dignity.
Pretty solid post really. Trump isn't going to conduct himself with dignity. I will say though you can dislike his antics and morals without expecting him to lose the office of the President.


I believe he would lose the republican nomination, if one solid dignified candidate ran against him.
Florda_mike
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TexasScientist said:

Forest Bueller said:

TexasScientist said:

Some people can't tolerate expression of any view contrary to their own, and they are hypocritical when it comes to politics. If Obama, or Bush behaved like Trump, Trump supporters would be railing against either of them. They quickly condemned Bill Clinton for his behavior, which pales in comparison to Trump's. They said Clinton was unworthy of the office, despite whether you liked his policies. Conduct in office should be an overriding factor. There is a lot of hypocrisy in Trump supporters. Bush and Obama, whether you liked their policies or not, conducted themselves with dignity.
Pretty solid post really. Trump isn't going to conduct himself with dignity. I will say though you can dislike his antics and morals without expecting him to lose the office of the President.


I believe he would lose the republican nomination, if one solid dignified candidate ran against him.


^^^ There was about 15 a couple years ago and it really wasn't even close

Bring em on!
bubbadog
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TexasScientist said:

Forest Bueller said:

TexasScientist said:

Some people can't tolerate expression of any view contrary to their own, and they are hypocritical when it comes to politics. If Obama, or Bush behaved like Trump, Trump supporters would be railing against either of them. They quickly condemned Bill Clinton for his behavior, which pales in comparison to Trump's. They said Clinton was unworthy of the office, despite whether you liked his policies. Conduct in office should be an overriding factor. There is a lot of hypocrisy in Trump supporters. Bush and Obama, whether you liked their policies or not, conducted themselves with dignity.
Pretty solid post really. Trump isn't going to conduct himself with dignity. I will say though you can dislike his antics and morals without expecting him to lose the office of the President.


I believe he would lose the republican nomination, if one solid dignified candidate ran against him.
Really? I don't see that. Kasich? Rubio? Corker? Ben Sasse? Nikki Haley? I don't see any of them beating Trump. Solid and dignified make them the anti-Trump, and the party is so tilted to Trump now that an anti-Trump isn't going to win.
 
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