Are the tax cuts working?

17,496 Views | 183 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Jack Bauer
Booray
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contrario said:

Waco1947 said:

Get a grip. Full of venom and little fact. Try again. Breathe. Be nice. Love your enemies. Even the Gentiles love those who love them.
Define more. The top 20% of earners currently pay 87% of the total federal income tax. What percentage does that need to be to qualify as "more" in your mind?
That stat is absolutely meaningless. The correct measure of how progressive our tax structure is the amount of taxes paid against the amount of income earned, not the number of people earning it.

A simple example. Lets say the economy has twenty-one people. Those twenty-one people combine to earn $100.00. The bottom 20 earn $0.50 and one person earns $90.00. We have a flat tax of 10%. In that scenario, .5% of the population (rounded) pays 90% of the taxes. Yet the tax structure is not progressive at all.

Our tax structure is undoubtedly progressive, but the "top x% stat" wildly inflates how progressive it is.
Canada2017
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Wildly 'inflated' or not.......the working class will be increasingly classified as 'rich' by leftists in order to obtain more funds.

And it will never be 'enough'.
Booray
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How are you defining the "working class."?
Doc Holliday
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Booray said:

contrario said:

Waco1947 said:

Get a grip. Full of venom and little fact. Try again. Breathe. Be nice. Love your enemies. Even the Gentiles love those who love them.
Define more. The top 20% of earners currently pay 87% of the total federal income tax. What percentage does that need to be to qualify as "more" in your mind?
That stat is absolutely meaningless. The correct measure of how progressive our tax structure is the amount of taxes paid against the amount of income earned, not the number of people earning it.

A simple example. Lets say the economy has twenty-one people. Those twenty-one people combine to earn $100.00. The bottom 20 earn $0.50 and one person earns $90.00. We have a flat tax of 10%. In that scenario, .5% of the population (rounded) pays 90% of the taxes. Yet the tax structure is not progressive at all.

Our tax structure is undoubtedly progressive, but the "top x% stat" wildly inflates how progressive it is.
The government receives plenty of revenue Booray.

The government is a 3rd party purchaser: they don't care about quality or price. Meaning they are EXTREMELY wasteful and careless with spending.

I hope you're smart enough to advocate for less spending and less taxes.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." ~ John Adams
J.R.
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YoakDaddy said:

Waco1947 said:

What? I pay my taxes according to law. The 1% - 10% have rigged the system to funnel more to themselves so they need to pay more

Taxation is theft.
That is just a dumb statement.
Canada2017
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Booray said:

How are you defining the "working class."?


Folks who work with their hands. Pay based on tangible accomplishments.
4th and Inches
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Canada2017 said:

Booray said:

How are you defining the "working class."?


Folks who work with their hands. Pay based on tangible accomplishments.
guess that makes me working class!
Canada2017
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Gruvin said:

Canada2017 said:

Booray said:

How are you defining the "working class."?


Folks who work with their hands. Pay based on tangible accomplishments.
guess that makes me working class!


Best people in our country .
contrario
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Booray said:

contrario said:

Waco1947 said:

Get a grip. Full of venom and little fact. Try again. Breathe. Be nice. Love your enemies. Even the Gentiles love those who love them.
Define more. The top 20% of earners currently pay 87% of the total federal income tax. What percentage does that need to be to qualify as "more" in your mind?
That stat is absolutely meaningless. The correct measure of how progressive our tax structure is the amount of taxes paid against the amount of income earned, not the number of people earning it.

A simple example. Lets say the economy has twenty-one people. Those twenty-one people combine to earn $100.00. The bottom 20 earn $0.50 and one person earns $90.00. We have a flat tax of 10%. In that scenario, .5% of the population (rounded) pays 90% of the taxes. Yet the tax structure is not progressive at all.

Our tax structure is undoubtedly progressive, but the "top x% stat" wildly inflates how progressive it is.
Ok, average effective tax rate by income levels:

$2M+ 27.5%
$500K-$2M 26.8%
$200K-$500K 19.4%
$100K-$200K 12.7%
$50K-$100K 9.2%
$30K-$50K 7.2%
<$30K 4.9%

Remind me again who doesn't pay their fair share? Not only do the top 20% of earners pay nearly all of the federal taxes, they also pay the highest effective tax rate on average.
YoakDaddy
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J.R. said:

YoakDaddy said:

Waco1947 said:

What? I pay my taxes according to law. The 1% - 10% have rigged the system to funnel more to themselves so they need to pay more

Taxation is theft.
That is just a dumb statement.

Nope. It's my money. I earned it. You have no right to it. Taxation is theft.
Canada2017
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contrario said:

Booray said:

contrario said:

Waco1947 said:

Get a grip. Full of venom and little fact. Try again. Breathe. Be nice. Love your enemies. Even the Gentiles love those who love them.
Define more. The top 20% of earners currently pay 87% of the total federal income tax. What percentage does that need to be to qualify as "more" in your mind?
That stat is absolutely meaningless. The correct measure of how progressive our tax structure is the amount of taxes paid against the amount of income earned, not the number of people earning it.

A simple example. Lets say the economy has twenty-one people. Those twenty-one people combine to earn $100.00. The bottom 20 earn $0.50 and one person earns $90.00. We have a flat tax of 10%. In that scenario, .5% of the population (rounded) pays 90% of the taxes. Yet the tax structure is not progressive at all.

Our tax structure is undoubtedly progressive, but the "top x% stat" wildly inflates how progressive it is.
Ok, average effective tax rate by income levels:

$2M+ 27.5%
$500K-$2M 26.8%
$200K-$500K 19.4%
$100K-$200K 12.7%
$50K-$100K 9.2%
$30K-$50K 7.2%
<$30K 4.9%

Remind me again who doesn't pay their fair share? Not only do the top 20% of earners pay nearly all of the federal taxes, they also pay the highest effective tax rate on average.


Yeah ...but it's not 'enough' say the ones paying the least .

Get ready ....cause once the Dems regain the White House taxes are going up dramatically.

For a working family of 4.....'rich' will most likely be set at an annual income of $200,000 .........or less.
Mitch Blood Green
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contrario said:

Waco1947 said:

What? I pay my taxes according to law. The 1% - 10% have rigged the system to funnel more to themselves so they need to pay more
Define more. The top 20% of earners currently pay 87% of the total federal income tax. What percentage does that need to be to qualify as "more" in your mind?


As we should. This is where mixing total numbers and percentages is gets you tripped up.

Assuming everyone pays 20%, paying 20% on 100K and 20% on 15K is just a different thing.

Personally, I'd like to see a graduated flat tax where everyone pays something (everyone) but the "hookups" in the tax code are eliminated.
Waco1947
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contrario said:

Waco1947 said:

"I don't Hate the rich. They need to pay to educate their workers, The postal service, the highways their goods travel on, the airports they fly, make sure their workers are healthy.
Define more. The top 20% of earners currently pay 87% of the total federal income tax. What percentage does that need to be to qualify as "more" in your mind?
The top 3% is my guess. And cut military spending. Defense Appropriations and contracts need weaning and scrutiny.
Doc Holliday
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If we're going radically left and Dems control everything:

I hope we raise all taxes near 60% just so I can watch the lefties taste their own medicine.

I'm at the point where I want them to reap what they sew.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." ~ John Adams
4th and Inches
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tommie said:

contrario said:

Waco1947 said:

What? I pay my taxes according to law. The 1% - 10% have rigged the system to funnel more to themselves so they need to pay more
Define more. The top 20% of earners currently pay 87% of the total federal income tax. What percentage does that need to be to qualify as "more" in your mind?


As we should. This is where mixing total numbers and percentages is gets you tripped up.

Assuming everyone pays 20%, paying 20% on 100K and 20% on 15K is just a different thing.

Personally, I'd like to see a graduated flat tax where everyone pays something (everyone) but the "hookups" in the tax code are eliminated.
i advocate this but in the form of a graduated sales tax. Large purchases will be taxed more heavily than small ones and hard to have a loophole when all items purchased are taxed. Drop all the non profit / tax exempt status bull and just pay the tax. If it is a good or service sold in america to anyone, buyer pays tax.
Waco1947
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Eliminate welfare for the rich.
xiledinok
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I've only had to tell one AT&T worker to **** off lately. I think it's definitely not working.
4th and Inches
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Waco1947 said:

Eliminate welfare for the rich.
elaborate on this please
Canada2017
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Waco1947 said:

Eliminate welfare for the rich.




You and 'cingue' are both so envious and clueless in regards to those who succeed.....it's laughable .

Waco1947
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Gruvin said:

Waco1947 said:

Eliminate welfare for the rich.
elaborate on this please

Gambling losses?
Gambling Losses Deducted

How can anyone justify this deduction? Its existence is bizarre. Why should gambling losses be deducted from taxes? Gambling is a leisure activity that often involves a cost. It is not a legitimate investment strategy. Since gambling involves winning and losing, the logic must go that only net income should be taxed. So we're talking about gross losses here, as net losses cannot be deducted from other income. Coburn's assertion must be to tax gross winnings instead of net winnings. The logistics here could be difficult -- after playing blackjack for four hours at a casino, how do you know what your gross losses are?Atlantic
Waco1947
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Why do the rich "derserve this welfare?"
Mortgage Interest Deduction

Arguing in favor of the mortgage interest deduction for wealthy Americans is a pretty tough thing to do. In fact, you could easily argue that it should be eliminated for all Americans. Unfortunately, Congress is having trouble even convincing itself to allow conforming limits for mortgage guarantees to fall to $625,500. So reforming the mortgage interest deduction won't be easy. The Atlantic
Waco1947
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Social Security Benefits
Whatever happened to self responsibility?
"Social Security Retirement Benefits

The idea of means testing Social Security is not a new one. From a practical standpoint, it makes sense to deny wealthier Americans their Social Security benefits. After all, they don't need them. But in principle, if these Americans dutifully paid into Social Security for decades, probably often at the maximum contribution rate, then they should be entitled to collect this money. An additional $1.5 billion in revenue attained by compromising the legitimacy of Social Security might not be sensible when that money could easily be brought in by a slightly higher tax rate on wealthy Americans." The Atlantic
Waco1947
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Federal tax breaks for wealthy hedge fund managers: Special tax breaks for hedge fund managers allow them to pay only a 15-percent rate while the people they earned the money for usually pay a 35-percent rate. This is the break where the multimillionaire manager pays less of a percentage in taxes than her secretary. The National Priorities Project estimates this costs taxpayers $83 billion annually, and 68 percent of those who receive this special tax break earn more than $462,500 per year (the top 1 percent of earners). HuffPost
4th and Inches
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Waco1947 said:

Why do the rich "derserve this welfare?"
Mortgage Interest Deduction

Arguing in favor of the mortgage interest deduction for wealthy Americans is a pretty tough thing to do. In fact, you could easily argue that it should be eliminated for all Americans. Unfortunately, Congress is having trouble even convincing itself to allow conforming limits for mortgage guarantees to fall to $625,500. So reforming the mortgage interest deduction won't be easy. The Atlantic
you do know that this was lowered in Trumps tax bill right? Its not removed entirely but its a start
Waco1947
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More welfare - underserved
why on God's green earth do wealthy hedge-fund guysaverage compensation $2.2 millionneed tax relief? They ought to be paying more of a share, not less.

Even the term "carried interest" is a bit of a misnomer. The "interest" it refers to is not interest like on a savings account, but rather the share of profits that a hedge fund (or venture-capital firm, or private-equity firm) takes as its feeusually 20 percent. Effectively, hedge-fund managers mostly get paid on commission. Portfolio goes up, they get a share of that cut (plus their six- or seven- figure salary). Portfolio goes down, they still get paid for the assets they're overseeing.

Now, it is true that those portfolio gains are technically capital gainsprofits made from investmentsrather than salary. And in this country, if you make money from investments, you pay a much lower tax rate (the "capital gains rate") than if you make money from work.

But this is all BS.

First, that hedge-fund manager is working, no differently from his (yes, it is almost entirely "his") secretary, his dentist, and his own investment banker, all of whom pay regular income-tax rates. In exchange for researching investments and monitoring returns and the like, the fund manager is compensated. That's what the word "carry" in "carried interest" means: their pay.

Second, some of that "carry" is paid out regardless of profit or loss. Most hedge funds charge a fee equal to 2 percent of the total funds under management. Invest $10 million, they get $200,000 per year. Even if a profit share is a capital gain, surely this management fee isn't.

And yet because of the dynamics of legislative capture, any time Congress has tried to close the loopholePresident Obama pledged to do so in 2012, add Democrats tried in 2007a small group of very wealthy people have hired lobbyists, who have sprung into action to preserve it.

The Daily Beast
Doc Holliday
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It's embarrassing that many in here think our economy is a zero sum game.

The public can create new wealth. The poor are not poor because the rich are rich. Hoarding wealth is not effecting you. There will always be poor people in a society that isn't fully egalitarian.

Tax cuts are simply an argument for how much the government should receive and how much the government should take from its citizens.

The government is a 3rd party purchaser: this means they don't care about price or quality which results in extraordinary large amounts of waste.

If you have a brain, you should always advocate for the government to be frugal and smart in their spending and understand that money in the private sector is better spent and you will have access to more of it.

These assumptions about taxes are not helping.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." ~ John Adams
4th and Inches
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Deducting gambling losses and special tax break for hedge fund managers can go...
CSIBear
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These are my favorite 47 posts. Whining that people who trained and work harder than him and now, as a result, make more money than he does are not paying their "fair share." Like their 27% is fair when he only pays 5%. It's insane. But he gets extra credit for using all of the Dem talking point buzzwords: fair share, loophole, 1%, unfair, cheaters, etc.
CSIBear
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Gruvin said:

Deducting gambling losses and special tax break for hedge fund managers can go...
Sure why not, the vast majority of people who gamble (and therefore lose) are not the wealthy anyway. Gambling has always been a tax on the poor, much like the lotto.
Canada2017
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Gruvin said:

Deducting gambling losses and special tax break for hedge fund managers can go...


Not sure....but believe one can only deduct gambling losses from the tax on your winnings .

Been to Vegas dozens of times.....never faced that problem !
Waco1947
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CSIBear said:

These are my favorite 47 posts. Whining that people who trained and work harder than him and now, as a result, make more money than he does are not paying their "fair share." Like their 27% is fair when he only pays 5%. It's insane. But he gets extra credit for using all of the Dem talking point buzzwords: fair share, loophole, 1%, unfair, cheaters, etc.
Not whining. I am describing the free loading of the rich. They are robbing our national treasury. You're cool with that?
contrario
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Waco1947 said:

CSIBear said:

These are my favorite 47 posts. Whining that people who trained and work harder than him and now, as a result, make more money than he does are not paying their "fair share." Like their 27% is fair when he only pays 5%. It's insane. But he gets extra credit for using all of the Dem talking point buzzwords: fair share, loophole, 1%, unfair, cheaters, etc.
Not whining. I am describing the free loading of the rich. They are robbing our national treasury. You're cool with that?
They are paying their taxes based on the laws that are in place, just as you are. Robbing is a very subjective definition.
Waco1947
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contrario said:

Waco1947 said:

CSIBear said:

These are my favorite 47 posts. Whining that people who trained and work harder than him and now, as a result, make more money than he does are not paying their "fair share." Like their 27% is fair when he only pays 5%. It's insane. But he gets extra credit for using all of the Dem talking point buzzwords: fair share, loophole, 1%, unfair, cheaters, etc.
Not whining. I am describing the free loading of the rich. They are robbing our national treasury. You're cool with that?
They are paying their taxes based on the laws that are in place, just as you are. Robbing is a very subjective definition.
That's not the point. Of course they are. The point is that it is not just. They buy those laws.
contrario
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Waco1947 said:

contrario said:

Waco1947 said:

CSIBear said:

These are my favorite 47 posts. Whining that people who trained and work harder than him and now, as a result, make more money than he does are not paying their "fair share." Like their 27% is fair when he only pays 5%. It's insane. But he gets extra credit for using all of the Dem talking point buzzwords: fair share, loophole, 1%, unfair, cheaters, etc.
Not whining. I am describing the free loading of the rich. They are robbing our national treasury. You're cool with that?
They are paying their taxes based on the laws that are in place, just as you are. Robbing is a very subjective definition.
That's not the point. Of course they are. The point is that it is not just. They buy those laws.
See my previous posts that you didn't really respond to. The top earners pay the highest effective tax rates and they pay the largest share of the total taxes (which I agree they should based on how much they earn). But how much more do they need to pay to make it "fair" in your eyes. They already pay a disproportionately high share of the taxes.

And yes, they bought those laws through politicians on the left and the right. Neither party is going to make real changes to the tax laws that impact their big donors. And as much as you hate Trump, he is the tip of the iceberg. Which is why many people want term limits because it would help eliminate these career politicians that look out for the interests of their big donors first.
cinque
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If by working you mean accelaring the rate at which the debt is growing, then yes.
 
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