contrario said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

riflebear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Watch this ***** lie:

---

You're a Trump supporter... who cares about lying?

GTFO

---

This one response sums up the character of Liberals and the corruption of your party.

When Republicans are exposed for lying they admit it and call each other out.

When Democrats are exposed for lying they don't care, they double down and the press gives them a pass and they high five each other because they know a lie spread much faster than the truth and you can't take it back.

Make this about the 500th thing liberals mocked Trump about that has come true.

---

"Corruption of your party."

Lmao. Bless your heart.

---

Do you personally think an abortion under any circumstance is UNacceptable?

I've already conceded several times that I think an abortion under some circumstances is acceptable.

---

I've stated multiple times that abortion under nearly every single circumstance is wrong. Period.

But I'm not the one adopting an absolutist stance. I have stated -time and again- that I think our efforts are best spent trying to create a world where abortions aren't needed. 1. Prevent them in the first place (contraception and education). 2. Support children when they ARE born (healthcare, headstart, daycare support, education).

I think the cases where abortions are acceptable are minuscule. But when they must happen, they should be completely safe and legal. And I don't think we should shame people who have that decision forced upon them.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

contrario said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

riflebear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Watch this ***** lie:

---

You're a Trump supporter... who cares about lying?

GTFO

---

This one response sums up the character of Liberals and the corruption of your party.

When Republicans are exposed for lying they admit it and call each other out.

When Democrats are exposed for lying they don't care, they double down and the press gives them a pass and they high five each other because they know a lie spread much faster than the truth and you can't take it back.

Make this about the 500th thing liberals mocked Trump about that has come true.

---

"Corruption of your party."

Lmao. Bless your heart.

---

Do you personally think an abortion under any circumstance is UNacceptable?

I've already conceded several times that I think an abortion under some circumstances is acceptable.

---

I've stated multiple times that abortion under nearly every single circumstance is wrong. Period.

But I'm not the one adopting an absolutist stance. I have stated -time and again- that I think our efforts are best spent trying to create a world where abortions aren't needed. 1. Prevent them in the first place (contraception and education). 2. Support children when they ARE born (healthcare, headstart, daycare support, education).

I think the cases where abortions are acceptable are minuscule. But when they must happen, they should be completely safe and legal. And I don't think we should shame people who have that decision forced upon them.

---

Keep voting Democrat and you will see a world where abortion is celebrated.

You endorse those that DESIRE abortion.

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

contrario said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

riflebear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Watch this ***** lie:

---

You're a Trump supporter... who cares about lying?

GTFO

---

This one response sums up the character of Liberals and the corruption of your party.

When Republicans are exposed for lying they admit it and call each other out.

When Democrats are exposed for lying they don't care, they double down and the press gives them a pass and they high five each other because they know a lie spread much faster than the truth and you can't take it back.

Make this about the 500th thing liberals mocked Trump about that has come true.

---

"Corruption of your party."

Lmao. Bless your heart.

---

Do you personally think an abortion under any circumstance is UNacceptable?

I've already conceded several times that I think an abortion under some circumstances is acceptable.

---

I've stated multiple times that abortion under nearly every single circumstance is wrong. Period.

But I'm not the one adopting an absolutist stance. I have stated -time and again- that I think our efforts are best spent trying to create a world where abortions aren't needed. 1. Prevent them in the first place (contraception and education). 2. Support children when they ARE born (healthcare, headstart, daycare support, education).

I think the cases where abortions are acceptable are minuscule. But when they must happen, they should be completely safe and legal. And I don't think we should shame people who have that decision forced upon them.

---

Keep voting Democrat and you will see a world where abortion is celebrated.

You endorse those that DESIRE abortion.

---

Goodness you're dramatic.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

contrario said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

riflebear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Watch this ***** lie:

---

You're a Trump supporter... who cares about lying?

GTFO

---

This one response sums up the character of Liberals and the corruption of your party.

When Republicans are exposed for lying they admit it and call each other out.

When Democrats are exposed for lying they don't care, they double down and the press gives them a pass and they high five each other because they know a lie spread much faster than the truth and you can't take it back.

Make this about the 500th thing liberals mocked Trump about that has come true.

---

"Corruption of your party."

Lmao. Bless your heart.

---

Do you personally think an abortion under any circumstance is UNacceptable?

I've already conceded several times that I think an abortion under some circumstances is acceptable.

---

I've stated multiple times that abortion under nearly every single circumstance is wrong. Period.

But I'm not the one adopting an absolutist stance. I have stated -time and again- that I think our efforts are best spent trying to create a world where abortions aren't needed. 1. Prevent them in the first place (contraception and education). 2. Support children when they ARE born (healthcare, headstart, daycare support, education).

I think the cases where abortions are acceptable are minuscule. But when they must happen, they should be completely safe and legal. And I don't think we should shame people who have that decision forced upon them.

---

Keep voting Democrat and you will see a world where abortion is celebrated.

You endorse those that DESIRE abortion.

---

Goodness you're dramatic.

---

It's true and you know it.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

contrario said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

riflebear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Watch this ***** lie:

---

You're a Trump supporter... who cares about lying?

GTFO

---

This one response sums up the character of Liberals and the corruption of your party.

When Republicans are exposed for lying they admit it and call each other out.

When Democrats are exposed for lying they don't care, they double down and the press gives them a pass and they high five each other because they know a lie spread much faster than the truth and you can't take it back.

Make this about the 500th thing liberals mocked Trump about that has come true.

---

"Corruption of your party."

Lmao. Bless your heart.

---

Do you personally think an abortion under any circumstance is UNacceptable?

I've already conceded several times that I think an abortion under some circumstances is acceptable.

---

I've stated multiple times that abortion under nearly every single circumstance is wrong. Period.

But I'm not the one adopting an absolutist stance. I have stated -time and again- that I think our efforts are best spent trying to create a world where abortions aren't needed. 1. Prevent them in the first place (contraception and education). 2. Support children when they ARE born (healthcare, headstart, daycare support, education).

I think the cases where abortions are acceptable are minuscule. But when they must happen, they should be completely safe and legal. And I don't think we should shame people who have that decision forced upon them.

---

I completely agree with your prevention points. I've always strongly supported all contraception (47, that means before pregnancy) methods. I also support morning after pill and early abortions. So more or less, we agree on this. If you think abortions are unacceptable in many situations that are currently legal, why do you defend legislation that allows for abortions in scenarios that you likely view as inappropriate? I'm not talking about shaming anyone, I agree we shouldn't do that. But it seems like at a minimum you shouldn't defend legislation that goes against what you believe to be right.

Or again, at a minimum, if you don't want to speak up with regard to legislation that you disagree with, you shouldn't shame people that do speak up. One could accuse you of being no better than a German who disagreed with the holocaust but looked the other way in Nazi Germany or a southerner who disagreed with slavery but looked the other way during slavery.

Ya'll think I'm joking?

Northam on Abortion Bill: Infant Could Be Delivered and Then 'Physicians and the Mother' Could Decide If It Lives

Quote:

---

"If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother," Northam said, alluding to the physician and mother discussing whether the born infant should live or die.

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

contrario said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

riflebear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Watch this ***** lie:

---

You're a Trump supporter... who cares about lying?

GTFO

---

This one response sums up the character of Liberals and the corruption of your party.

When Republicans are exposed for lying they admit it and call each other out.

When Democrats are exposed for lying they don't care, they double down and the press gives them a pass and they high five each other because they know a lie spread much faster than the truth and you can't take it back.

Make this about the 500th thing liberals mocked Trump about that has come true.

---

"Corruption of your party."

Lmao. Bless your heart.

---

Do you personally think an abortion under any circumstance is UNacceptable?

I've already conceded several times that I think an abortion under some circumstances is acceptable.

---

I've stated multiple times that abortion under nearly every single circumstance is wrong. Period.

But I'm not the one adopting an absolutist stance. I have stated -time and again- that I think our efforts are best spent trying to create a world where abortions aren't needed. 1. Prevent them in the first place (contraception and education). 2. Support children when they ARE born (healthcare, headstart, daycare support, education).

I think the cases where abortions are acceptable are minuscule. But when they must happen, they should be completely safe and legal. And I don't think we should shame people who have that decision forced upon them.

---

Have they eliminated your Title 9 position?

You were never on here during the obama dictatorship!

Are you having trouble finding another worthless government job, like Title 9, in Trumpland?

You poor little feller?

BrooksBearLives said:

---

fadskier said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Again BBL
"
A woman should have some right to autonomy over her own body. You can believe that abortion is wrong and still believe that a person should have liberty over their body. "

---

For your consideration again

---

She does. She chose to have sex, she should be responsible for the consequences.

---

Come on... you can follow this to its logical conclusion....

---

Which is? Women aren't strong enough to say no? Men aren't? Women can't take responsibility? Men can't?

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

contrario said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

riflebear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Watch this ***** lie:

---

You're a Trump supporter... who cares about lying?

GTFO

---

This one response sums up the character of Liberals and the corruption of your party.

When Republicans are exposed for lying they admit it and call each other out.

When Democrats are exposed for lying they don't care, they double down and the press gives them a pass and they high five each other because they know a lie spread much faster than the truth and you can't take it back.

Make this about the 500th thing liberals mocked Trump about that has come true.

---

"Corruption of your party."

Lmao. Bless your heart.

---

Do you personally think an abortion under any circumstance is UNacceptable?

I've already conceded several times that I think an abortion under some circumstances is acceptable.

---

I've stated multiple times that abortion under nearly every single circumstance is wrong. Period.

But I'm not the one adopting an absolutist stance. I have stated -time and again- that I think our efforts are best spent trying to create a world where abortions aren't needed. 1. Prevent them in the first place (contraception and education). 2. Support children when they ARE born (healthcare, headstart, daycare support, education).

I think the cases where abortions are acceptable are minuscule. But when they must happen, they should be completely safe and legal. And I don't think we should shame people who have that decision forced upon them.

---

Keep voting Democrat and you will see a world where abortion is celebrated.

You endorse those that DESIRE abortion.

---

Goodness you're dramatic.

---

It's true and you know it.

---

That you're dramatic or that there are secretly people out there just GIDDY to get abortions?

contrario said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

contrario said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

riflebear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Watch this ***** lie:

---

You're a Trump supporter... who cares about lying?

GTFO

---

This one response sums up the character of Liberals and the corruption of your party.

When Republicans are exposed for lying they admit it and call each other out.

When Democrats are exposed for lying they don't care, they double down and the press gives them a pass and they high five each other because they know a lie spread much faster than the truth and you can't take it back.

Make this about the 500th thing liberals mocked Trump about that has come true.

---

"Corruption of your party."

Lmao. Bless your heart.

---

Do you personally think an abortion under any circumstance is UNacceptable?

I've already conceded several times that I think an abortion under some circumstances is acceptable.

---

I've stated multiple times that abortion under nearly every single circumstance is wrong. Period.

But I'm not the one adopting an absolutist stance. I have stated -time and again- that I think our efforts are best spent trying to create a world where abortions aren't needed. 1. Prevent them in the first place (contraception and education). 2. Support children when they ARE born (healthcare, headstart, daycare support, education).

I think the cases where abortions are acceptable are minuscule. But when they must happen, they should be completely safe and legal. And I don't think we should shame people who have that decision forced upon them.

---

I completely agree with your prevention points. I've always strongly supported all contraception (47, that means before pregnancy) methods. I also support morning after pill and early abortions. So more or less, we agree on this. If you think abortions are unacceptable in many situations that are currently legal, why do you defend legislation that allows for abortions in scenarios that you likely view as inappropriate? I'm not talking about shaming anyone, I agree we shouldn't do that. But it seems like at a minimum you shouldn't defend legislation that goes against what you believe to be right.

Or again, at a minimum, if you don't want to speak up with regard to legislation that you disagree with, you shouldn't shame people that do speak up. One could accuse you of being no better than a German who disagreed with the holocaust but looked the other way in Nazi Germany or a southerner who disagreed with slavery but looked the other way during slavery.

---

If we agree there are scenarios where an abortion could be necessary, then we essentially agree on the law in principle.

I think abortion should be legal in cases like this. I think you agre on that. Where we seem to disagree is on how a law like that should look. I think a lot of these rules and laws written in states such as Texas hav been written to shame the mother's and to limit all abortions. Once again, the young mother I knew of who had to have the abortion had to listen to the fetal heartbeat of the baby she so desperately wanted -but couldn't have.

I also sincerely struggle with my own postitionality of a man trying to pass judgement on a decision a woman has to make. I also know a young woman who felt she had no choice but to have an abortion. She was raped. She was incredibly poor and dropped out of school to support herself. She was struggling to even take care of herself and didn't realize she was pregnant (once again, uneducated, obese, raped by her father and mom took his side so she left home).

I wish to DEATH she could have found it in her to carry that child. But I just can't pass judgement. She would have had an abortion one way or the other. I was actually glad she could at least do it safely.

Now, are these more than 1% of the cases? **** man, I don't know. But it WAS one. I know her personally. She wasn't making this up.

So ****. I see a lot of brokenness in the world. Maybe if she felt like she COULD have gotten help, she would have tried. Maybe if she had actual access to contraception (state law required parental permission at her age at the time).

So you'll excuse me if I bristle at the absolutist stance some are taking here. You'll excuse me if I get annoyed by those who would characterize me as a liberal who loves babies dying. I'm not. I'm not at all.

Maybe not giddy about abortions but there is definitely a population (not single anecdotes) that uses abortion as birth control - 8% of women have had 3 or more and 20% have had 2 or more.

As a side note, New York City, does seem positively giddy about having abortions as 31% of women have had multiple abortions.

That is 2x the rate of Texas and nearly 3x the rate of Oklahoma. Appalling.

Table 19 - https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6015a1.htm#Tab18

BrooksBearLives said:

---

If we agree there are scenarios where an abortion could be necessary, then we essentially agree on the law in principle.

I think abortion should be legal in cases like this. I think you agre on that. Where we seem to disagree is on how a law like that should look. I think a lot of these rules and laws written in states such as Texas hav been written to shame the mother's and to limit all abortions. Once again, the young mother I knew of who had to have the abortion had to listen to the fetal heartbeat of the baby she so desperately wanted -but couldn't have.

I also sincerely struggle with my own postitionality of a man trying to pass judgement on a decision a woman has to make. I also know a young woman who felt she had no choice but to have an abortion. She was raped. She was incredibly poor and dropped out of school to support herself. She was struggling to even take care of herself and didn't realize she was pregnant (once again, uneducated, obese, raped by her father and mom took his side so she left home).

I wish to DEATH she could have found it in her to carry that child. But I just can't pass judgement. She would have had an abortion one way or the other. I was actually glad she could at least do it safely.

Now, are these more than 1% of the cases? **** man, I don't know. But it WAS one. I know her personally. She wasn't making this up.

So ****. I see a lot of brokenness in the world. Maybe if she felt like she COULD have gotten help, she would have tried. Maybe if she had actual access to contraception (state law required parental permission at her age at the time).

So you'll excuse me if I bristle at the absolutist stance some are taking here. You'll excuse me if I get annoyed by those who would characterize me as a liberal who loves babies dying. I'm not. I'm not at all.

---

On the flip side of this, my wife had a friend at Baylor (early 90's) that got pregnant and went to a clinic to have an abortion. As she went to the clinic, she was confronted by a man outside of the clinic that shared some scripture with her and quite frankly made her feel ashamed about what she was doing.

She ended up having the baby and had to raise the child with no help from parents or the father. She was poor and struggled. She married a different man who ended up adopting the child as his own.

She tells my wife from time to time that she thanks God she had her son. That son is now a current Baylor student.

The point in saying this is that a life, any life, takes sacrifice. To someone like myself who is pro-life, it seems like pro-choice people are advocating that they want the freedom of controlling their bodies but not the responsibility or sacrifice that comes with it. And, they're willing to kill for their freedom.

I am fine with taking rape, and incest, and the life of the mother out of the equation. But, the other 96% of abortions in the US seem unnecessary.

Edmond Bear said:

---

Maybe not giddy about abortions but there is definitely a population (not single anecdotes) that uses abortion as birth control - 8% of women have had 3 or more and 20% have had 2 or more.

As a side note, New York City, does seem positively giddy about having abortions as 31% of women have had multiple abortions.

That is 2x the rate of Texas and nearly 3x the rate of Oklahoma. Appalling.

Table 19 - https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6015a1.htm#Tab18

---

Ok. So honest question: what's a better way to address that? Illegalize it? Or improve education and access to contraception?

Abortions are a lot of things. Pleasant isn't one of them.

We could do "all of the above" but that won't end abortions, just make them less safe. And the track record of the political constituency that could bring about the end of legal abortion is pretty ****ing horrible in regards to health care, education and social safety nets.

Edmond Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

If we agree there are scenarios where an abortion could be necessary, then we essentially agree on the law in principle.

I think abortion should be legal in cases like this. I think you agre on that. Where we seem to disagree is on how a law like that should look. I think a lot of these rules and laws written in states such as Texas hav been written to shame the mother's and to limit all abortions. Once again, the young mother I knew of who had to have the abortion had to listen to the fetal heartbeat of the baby she so desperately wanted -but couldn't have.

I also sincerely struggle with my own postitionality of a man trying to pass judgement on a decision a woman has to make. I also know a young woman who felt she had no choice but to have an abortion. She was raped. She was incredibly poor and dropped out of school to support herself. She was struggling to even take care of herself and didn't realize she was pregnant (once again, uneducated, obese, raped by her father and mom took his side so she left home).

I wish to DEATH she could have found it in her to carry that child. But I just can't pass judgement. She would have had an abortion one way or the other. I was actually glad she could at least do it safely.

Now, are these more than 1% of the cases? **** man, I don't know. But it WAS one. I know her personally. She wasn't making this up.

So ****. I see a lot of brokenness in the world. Maybe if she felt like she COULD have gotten help, she would have tried. Maybe if she had actual access to contraception (state law required parental permission at her age at the time).

So you'll excuse me if I bristle at the absolutist stance some are taking here. You'll excuse me if I get annoyed by those who would characterize me as a liberal who loves babies dying. I'm not. I'm not at all.

---

On the flip side of this, my wife had a friend at Baylor (early 90's) that got pregnant and went to a clinic to have an abortion. As she went to the clinic, she was confronted by a man outside of the clinic that shared some scripture with her and quite frankly made her feel ashamed about what she was doing.

She ended up having the baby and had to raise the child with no help from parents or the father. She was poor and struggled. She married a different man who ended up adopting the child as his own.

She tells my wife from time to time that she thanks God she had her son. That son is now a current Baylor student.

The point in saying this is that a life, any life, takes sacrifice. To someone like myself who is pro-life, it seems like pro-choice people are advocating that they want the freedom of controlling their bodies but not the responsibility or sacrifice that comes with it. And, they're willing to kill for their freedom.

I am fine with taking rape, and incest, and the life of the mother out of the equation. But, the other 96% of abortions in the US seem unnecessary.

---

I don't think that's a "flip-side" argument. They're separate. And I think it's a beautiful story. But I'm not sure scripture would have helped either of the two ladies I referenced.

The point I've been trying to make all along is that there IS common ground. And that's support for young women, mothers AND children.

The anti-abortion crowd has a BAD track-record in regards to the latter.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

If we agree there are scenarios where an abortion could be necessary, then we essentially agree on the law in principle.

I think abortion should be legal in cases like this. I think you agre on that. Where we seem to disagree is on how a law like that should look. I think a lot of these rules and laws written in states such as Texas hav been written to shame the mother's and to limit all abortions. Once again, the young mother I knew of who had to have the abortion had to listen to the fetal heartbeat of the baby she so desperately wanted -but couldn't have.

I also sincerely struggle with my own postitionality of a man trying to pass judgement on a decision a woman has to make. I also know a young woman who felt she had no choice but to have an abortion. She was raped. She was incredibly poor and dropped out of school to support herself. She was struggling to even take care of herself and didn't realize she was pregnant (once again, uneducated, obese, raped by her father and mom took his side so she left home).

I wish to DEATH she could have found it in her to carry that child. But I just can't pass judgement. She would have had an abortion one way or the other. I was actually glad she could at least do it safely.

Now, are these more than 1% of the cases? **** man, I don't know. But it WAS one. I know her personally. She wasn't making this up.

So ****. I see a lot of brokenness in the world. Maybe if she felt like she COULD have gotten help, she would have tried. Maybe if she had actual access to contraception (state law required parental permission at her age at the time).

So you'll excuse me if I bristle at the absolutist stance some are taking here. You'll excuse me if I get annoyed by those who would characterize me as a liberal who loves babies dying. I'm not. I'm not at all.

---

On the flip side of this, my wife had a friend at Baylor (early 90's) that got pregnant and went to a clinic to have an abortion. As she went to the clinic, she was confronted by a man outside of the clinic that shared some scripture with her and quite frankly made her feel ashamed about what she was doing.

She ended up having the baby and had to raise the child with no help from parents or the father. She was poor and struggled. She married a different man who ended up adopting the child as his own.

She tells my wife from time to time that she thanks God she had her son. That son is now a current Baylor student.

The point in saying this is that a life, any life, takes sacrifice. To someone like myself who is pro-life, it seems like pro-choice people are advocating that they want the freedom of controlling their bodies but not the responsibility or sacrifice that comes with it. And, they're willing to kill for their freedom.

I am fine with taking rape, and incest, and the life of the mother out of the equation. But, the other 96% of abortions in the US seem unnecessary.

---

I don't think that's a "flip-side" argument. They're separate. And I think it's a beautiful story. But I'm not sure scripture would have helped either of the two ladies I referenced.

The point I've been trying to make all along is that there IS common ground. And that's support for young women, mothers AND children.

The anti-abortion crowd has a BAD track-record in regards to the latter.

---

The anti abortion crowd is mostly women.

There this thing called adoption btw.

Edmond Bear said:

---

I would favor:
1) age appropriate education in schools
2) easy access to birth control for all ages

But, these two already exist and are well funded in the places with the highest abortion rates.

3) monetary help, less red tape, less hassle for adoptions
4) free medical care for women below a $ threshold for women who agree to carry their baby to term and then adopt
5) tax deductions for people who are adopting
6) a push through the church and civic organizations to encourage adoption

7) additional funding for agencies that help single moms with diapers, furniture, formula, food, etc
8) additional tax breaks and lower restrictions for individuals to open small daycare centers in their homes and cap the number of children per square feet - basically, anything to make access to daycare easier so that moms can go to school or work

9-29) other solutions that I haven't thought of yet


30) abortion for rape, incest, and life of mother

---

Agreed.

Edmond Bear said:

---

I would favor:
1) age appropriate education in schools
2) easy access to birth control for all ages

But, these two already exist and are well funded in the places with the highest abortion rates.

3) monetary help, less red tape, less hassle for adoptions
4) free medical care for women below a $ threshold for women who agree to carry their baby to term and then adopt
5) tax deductions for people who are adopting
6) a push through the church and civic organizations to encourage adoption

7) additional funding for agencies that help single moms with diapers, furniture, formula, food, etc
8) additional tax breaks and lower restrictions for individuals to open small daycare centers in their homes and cap the number of children per square feet - basically, anything to make access to daycare easier so that moms can go to school or work

9-29) other solutions that I haven't thought of yet


30) abortion for rape, incest, and life of mother

---

We're in nearly total agreement.

However, your first two are EXTREMELY OVERSTATED. They are NOT funded as they should be. Education in schools is a CONSTANT battle. My PhD work is in the area of sexual assault but concentrates on remedies and differentiated needs. I literally study what education we give to students. And K-12 sex education is currently a joke south of the mason-Dixon. Schools still get away with watering down curricula to near abstinence-only levels -if they do anything at all. And that's not education. It's regressive.

My mother has one of her Masters in Adult Health Education and is also a Sho-ite catholic. But even SHE sees the need for comprehensive sex education.

Awesome family discussions (I'm scarred).

Access to contraception in Texas is NOT easy. Ironically, its difficult (in different ways, of course) for the affluent. Involved parents can actually be a hindrance. Much of this is stigma in the Christian Church.

Look up the numbers of women who have abortions. The number of Christians will shock you.

But yes. I agree with you about 95% on this post.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

contrario said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

contrario said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

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riflebear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Watch this ***** lie:

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You're a Trump supporter... who cares about lying?

GTFO

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This one response sums up the character of Liberals and the corruption of your party.

When Republicans are exposed for lying they admit it and call each other out.

When Democrats are exposed for lying they don't care, they double down and the press gives them a pass and they high five each other because they know a lie spread much faster than the truth and you can't take it back.

Make this about the 500th thing liberals mocked Trump about that has come true.

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"Corruption of your party."

Lmao. Bless your heart.

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Do you personally think an abortion under any circumstance is UNacceptable?

I've already conceded several times that I think an abortion under some circumstances is acceptable.

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I've stated multiple times that abortion under nearly every single circumstance is wrong. Period.

But I'm not the one adopting an absolutist stance. I have stated -time and again- that I think our efforts are best spent trying to create a world where abortions aren't needed. 1. Prevent them in the first place (contraception and education). 2. Support children when they ARE born (healthcare, headstart, daycare support, education).

I think the cases where abortions are acceptable are minuscule. But when they must happen, they should be completely safe and legal. And I don't think we should shame people who have that decision forced upon them.

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I completely agree with your prevention points. I've always strongly supported all contraception (47, that means before pregnancy) methods. I also support morning after pill and early abortions. So more or less, we agree on this. If you think abortions are unacceptable in many situations that are currently legal, why do you defend legislation that allows for abortions in scenarios that you likely view as inappropriate? I'm not talking about shaming anyone, I agree we shouldn't do that. But it seems like at a minimum you shouldn't defend legislation that goes against what you believe to be right.

Or again, at a minimum, if you don't want to speak up with regard to legislation that you disagree with, you shouldn't shame people that do speak up. One could accuse you of being no better than a German who disagreed with the holocaust but looked the other way in Nazi Germany or a southerner who disagreed with slavery but looked the other way during slavery.

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If we agree there are scenarios where an abortion could be necessary, then we essentially agree on the law in principle.

I think abortion should be legal in cases like this. I think you agre on that. Where we seem to disagree is on how a law like that should look. I think a lot of these rules and laws written in states such as Texas hav been written to shame the mother's and to limit all abortions. Once again, the young mother I knew of who had to have the abortion had to listen to the fetal heartbeat of the baby she so desperately wanted -but couldn't have.

I also sincerely struggle with my own postitionality of a man trying to pass judgement on a decision a woman has to make. I also know a young woman who felt she had no choice but to have an abortion. She was raped. She was incredibly poor and dropped out of school to support herself. She was struggling to even take care of herself and didn't realize she was pregnant (once again, uneducated, obese, raped by her father and mom took his side so she left home).

I wish to DEATH she could have found it in her to carry that child. But I just can't pass judgement. She would have had an abortion one way or the other. I was actually glad she could at least do it safely.

Now, are these more than 1% of the cases? **** man, I don't know. But it WAS one. I know her personally. She wasn't making this up.

So ****. I see a lot of brokenness in the world. Maybe if she felt like she COULD have gotten help, she would have tried. Maybe if she had actual access to contraception (state law required parental permission at her age at the time).

So you'll excuse me if I bristle at the absolutist stance some are taking here. You'll excuse me if I get annoyed by those who would characterize me as a liberal who loves babies dying. I'm not. I'm not at all.

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Why would you plan for contraception when you are raped?

BBL: "So honest question: what's a better way to address that? "

First, let's understand that abortion is killing.

Call it necessary if you think so, call it 'a right' if it helps you sleep at night. But every abortion kills a living being, a being which if allowed to live would be human.

Second, understand that an abortion is a serious medical procedure which includes anesthesia and surgery. You'd be outraged to learn that the LVN school nurse gave your kid stitches, so why is it OK to let facilities perform surgeries without a single certified surgeon on the premises?

Third, every abortion is traumatic, and a lot of women who have abortions later experience regret and loss because they were not prepared for the physical and psychological side effects from the procedure. Seriously, we all expect pharmaceutical companies to be candid about possible complications from a medicine, but it's fine for abortion providers to conceal the possible complications of an abortion?

Finally, I can agree that having an abortion is ultimately the choice of the pregnant woman. But to deny the father any rights in the matter is obscenely unjust. I'm not smart enough to say what the solution there is, but to demand that men simply have no say is way out of line.

Adults on both sides need to talk. Abortion is not going to be outlawed, and pregnant women who don;t want the child need a better solution than to chose between toughing out being a single mom or slaughtering their baby. Let's leave the media and special interest groups out of it, by the way. As I said, this is a life decision, and media/politics has no business adding stress to the situation.

Edmond Bear said:

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I would favor:
1) age appropriate education in schools
2) easy access to birth control for all ages

But, these two already exist and are well funded in the places with the highest abortion rates.

3) monetary help, less red tape, less hassle for adoptions
4) free medical care for women below a $ threshold for women who agree to carry their baby to term and then adopt
5) tax deductions for people who are adopting
6) a push through the church and civic organizations to encourage adoption

7) additional funding for agencies that help single moms with diapers, furniture, formula, food, etc
8) additional tax breaks and lower restrictions for individuals to open small daycare centers in their homes and cap the number of children per square feet - basically, anything to make access to daycare easier so that moms can go to school or work

9-29) other solutions that I haven't thought of yet


30) abortion for rape, incest, and life of mother

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This would be a solution that could work with an emphasis on #1 and #2. #6 at my church of about 300 there are at least 30 adopted children, multiple families have multiple children. Another family at church is now trying to adopt a high needs family of 3 children. Council those who were raped and even incest to put their child up for adoption in every case possible.

It will unfortunately never happen without major heart changes.

Pro Life? Then how about these in addition to Edmond's ideas.
1. Universal Healthcare (Including Dental and Vision)

Because you cannot expect a person to be able to complete life, let alone a pregnancy or childhood without access to doctors, medicine, hospitals, and root canals.

2. Universal Childcare

Because, you need to understand the fact that childcare costs the same or more a month than most people's rent and jobs don't tend to allow small children in the workplace, they are a total liability.

3. Funding Food Stamps

Because food is important to maintain life.

4. Livable Minimum Wage

Because children and life cost money and that's probably not going to change in the near future.

Socialism again, Waco? Go visit East Europe, they are finally starting to recover from what Socialism and Communism did to their land and people.

Your plans would only make slaves of the people you pretend to help, create a permanent underclass.

Waco1947 said:

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Pro Life? Then how about these in addition to Edmond's ideas.
1. Universal Healthcare (Including Dental and Vision)

Because you cannot expect a person to be able to complete life, let alone a pregnancy or childhood without access to doctors, medicine, hospitals, and root canals.

2. Universal Childcare

Because, you need to understand the fact that childcare costs the same or more a month than most people's rent and jobs don't tend to allow small children in the workplace, they are a total liability.

3. Funding Food Stamps

Because food is important to maintain life.

4. Livable Minimum Wage

Because children and life cost money and that's probably not going to change in the near future.

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Waco1947 said:

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Pro Life? Then how about these in addition to Edmond's ideas.
1. Universal Healthcare (Including Dental and Vision)

Because you cannot expect a person to be able to complete life, let alone a pregnancy or childhood without access to doctors, medicine, hospitals, and root canals.

2. Universal Childcare

Because, you need to understand the fact that childcare costs the same or more a month than most people's rent and jobs don't tend to allow small children in the workplace, they are a total liability.

3. Funding Food Stamps

Because food is important to maintain life.

4. Livable Minimum Wage

Because children and life cost money and that's probably not going to change in the near future.

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47 never met someone else's dollar he didn't like....and clearly never wandered near an Economics class.

Waco1947 said:

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Pro Life? Then how about these in addition to Edmond's ideas.
1. Universal Healthcare (Including Dental and Vision)

Because you cannot expect a person to be able to complete life, let alone a pregnancy or childhood without access to doctors, medicine, hospitals, and root canals.

2. Universal Childcare

Because, you need to understand the fact that childcare costs the same or more a month than most people's rent and jobs don't tend to allow small children in the workplace, they are a total liability.

3. Funding Food Stamps

Because food is important to maintain life.

4. Livable Minimum Wage

Because children and life cost money and that's probably not going to change in the near future.

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How about you answer my question after you accused me of avoiding yours?

Does a living, air-breathing, physically independent-from-its-mother baby have the same rights you do?

90sBear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Pro Life? Then how about these in addition to Edmond's ideas.
1. Universal Healthcare (Including Dental and Vision)

Because you cannot expect a person to be able to complete life, let alone a pregnancy or childhood without access to doctors, medicine, hospitals, and root canals.

2. Universal Childcare

Because, you need to understand the fact that childcare costs the same or more a month than most people's rent and jobs don't tend to allow small children in the workplace, they are a total liability.

3. Funding Food Stamps

Because food is important to maintain life.

4. Livable Minimum Wage

Because children and life cost money and that's probably not going to change in the near future.

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How about you answer my question after you accused me of avoiding yours?

Does a living, air-breathing, physically independent-from-its-mother baby have the same rights you do?

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Yes. Now answer my question

90sBear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Pro Life? Then how about these in addition to Edmond's ideas.
1. Universal Healthcare (Including Dental and Vision)

Because you cannot expect a person to be able to complete life, let alone a pregnancy or childhood without access to doctors, medicine, hospitals, and root canals.

2. Universal Childcare

Because, you need to understand the fact that childcare costs the same or more a month than most people's rent and jobs don't tend to allow small children in the workplace, they are a total liability.

3. Funding Food Stamps

Because food is important to maintain life.

4. Livable Minimum Wage

Because children and life cost money and that's probably not going to change in the near future.

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How about you answer my question after you accused me of avoiding yours?

Does a living, air-breathing, physically independent-from-its-mother baby have the same rights you do?

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Don't hold your breath on him replying to your question, much less understand it

47, just answered Yes in the post above yours.

So, 47, is clearly okay with the state of New York determining that it is okay to kill him if they like.

Waco1947 said:

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90sBear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Pro Life? Then how about these in addition to Edmond's ideas.
1. Universal Healthcare (Including Dental and Vision)

Because you cannot expect a person to be able to complete life, let alone a pregnancy or childhood without access to doctors, medicine, hospitals, and root canals.

2. Universal Childcare

Because, you need to understand the fact that childcare costs the same or more a month than most people's rent and jobs don't tend to allow small children in the workplace, they are a total liability.

3. Funding Food Stamps

Because food is important to maintain life.

4. Livable Minimum Wage

Because children and life cost money and that's probably not going to change in the near future.

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How about you answer my question after you accused me of avoiding yours?

Does a living, air-breathing, physically independent-from-its-mother baby have the same rights you do?

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Yes. Now answer my question

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I already answered your question regarding if something is "my business"

If said baby has the same rights you do, does a mother have a right to "abort" this already born child because she made a decision while the baby was inside her?

Earlier you said, "I don't know". These two answers would seem to be conflicting.

Jack Bauer said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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contrario said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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contrario said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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riflebear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Watch this ***** lie:

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You're a Trump supporter... who cares about lying?

GTFO

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This one response sums up the character of Liberals and the corruption of your party.

When Republicans are exposed for lying they admit it and call each other out.

When Democrats are exposed for lying they don't care, they double down and the press gives them a pass and they high five each other because they know a lie spread much faster than the truth and you can't take it back.

Make this about the 500th thing liberals mocked Trump about that has come true.

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"Corruption of your party."

Lmao. Bless your heart.

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Do you personally think an abortion under any circumstance is UNacceptable?

I've already conceded several times that I think an abortion under some circumstances is acceptable.

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I've stated multiple times that abortion under nearly every single circumstance is wrong. Period.

But I'm not the one adopting an absolutist stance. I have stated -time and again- that I think our efforts are best spent trying to create a world where abortions aren't needed. 1. Prevent them in the first place (contraception and education). 2. Support children when they ARE born (healthcare, headstart, daycare support, education).

I think the cases where abortions are acceptable are minuscule. But when they must happen, they should be completely safe and legal. And I don't think we should shame people who have that decision forced upon them.

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I completely agree with your prevention points. I've always strongly supported all contraception (47, that means before pregnancy) methods. I also support morning after pill and early abortions. So more or less, we agree on this. If you think abortions are unacceptable in many situations that are currently legal, why do you defend legislation that allows for abortions in scenarios that you likely view as inappropriate? I'm not talking about shaming anyone, I agree we shouldn't do that. But it seems like at a minimum you shouldn't defend legislation that goes against what you believe to be right.

Or again, at a minimum, if you don't want to speak up with regard to legislation that you disagree with, you shouldn't shame people that do speak up. One could accuse you of being no better than a German who disagreed with the holocaust but looked the other way in Nazi Germany or a southerner who disagreed with slavery but looked the other way during slavery.

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If we agree there are scenarios where an abortion could be necessary, then we essentially agree on the law in principle.

I think abortion should be legal in cases like this. I think you agre on that. Where we seem to disagree is on how a law like that should look. I think a lot of these rules and laws written in states such as Texas hav been written to shame the mother's and to limit all abortions. Once again, the young mother I knew of who had to have the abortion had to listen to the fetal heartbeat of the baby she so desperately wanted -but couldn't have.

I also sincerely struggle with my own postitionality of a man trying to pass judgement on a decision a woman has to make. I also know a young woman who felt she had no choice but to have an abortion. She was raped. She was incredibly poor and dropped out of school to support herself. She was struggling to even take care of herself and didn't realize she was pregnant (once again, uneducated, obese, raped by her father and mom took his side so she left home).

I wish to DEATH she could have found it in her to carry that child. But I just can't pass judgement. She would have had an abortion one way or the other. I was actually glad she could at least do it safely.

Now, are these more than 1% of the cases? **** man, I don't know. But it WAS one. I know her personally. She wasn't making this up.

So ****. I see a lot of brokenness in the world. Maybe if she felt like she COULD have gotten help, she would have tried. Maybe if she had actual access to contraception (state law required parental permission at her age at the time).

So you'll excuse me if I bristle at the absolutist stance some are taking here. You'll excuse me if I get annoyed by those who would characterize me as a liberal who loves babies dying. I'm not. I'm not at all.

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Why would you plan for contraception when you are raped?

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If you're getting raped/molested by a family member, it might occur to you. If I remember correctly, she was being molested/raped and when she got pregnant, it all came out.

If you're sexually active but not in a position to have a child, then you should be on birth control/using contraception.

Do you disagree?

Oldbear83 said:

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BBL: "So honest question: what's a better way to address that? "

First, let's understand that abortion is killing.

Call it necessary if you think so, call it 'a right' if it helps you sleep at night. But every abortion kills a living being, a being which if allowed to live would be human. Not all fetuses are viable, but your point mostly stands.

Second, understand that an abortion is a serious medical procedure which includes anesthesia and surgery. You'd be outraged to learn that the LVN school nurse gave your kid stitches, so why is it OK to let facilities perform surgeries without a single certified surgeon on the premises?
All abortions are not the same. The morning after pill is different from a late-term abortion. So let's appreciate the nuance there. I'll defer to experts on the matter who state a surgeon is not required in 99% of all abortions. A scalpel is almost never used and anesthesia is almost never used. It's local anesthetic only.

Third, every abortion is traumatic, and a lot of women who have abortions later experience regret and loss because they were not prepared for the physical and psychological side effects from the procedure. Seriously, we all expect pharmaceutical companies to be candid about possible complications from a medicine, but it's fine for abortion providers to conceal the possible complications of an abortion?
I'm not sure what you think I was saying, but I was talking more about access to contraception than an abortion. But if we're thinking critically, I think we can come up with a few examples of where it would be a very bad idea to require a parent to be in place (especially if there is misconduct involved).

Finally, I can agree that having an abortion is ultimately the choice of the pregnant woman. But to deny the father any rights in the matter is obscenely unjust. I'm not smart enough to say what the solution there is, but to demand that men simply have no say is way out of line.
I think this is a little squishy. I have a pretty big issue with trusting a government to say what a woman can or can't do with her body. I have even MORE of an issue with allowing a 3rd party private citizen -who will not be expected to carry the child to term- to have a say over what a woman can or can't do with her body. Can you imagine a scenario where you would allow a 3rd party to force you to do something so intimate with your body and it would work out?

How would you even enforce that? Honest question.

Adults on both sides need to talk. Abortion is not going to be outlawed, and pregnant women who don;t want the child need a better solution than to chose between toughing out being a single mom or slaughtering their baby. Let's leave the media and special interest groups out of it, by the way. As I said, this is a life decision, and media/politics has no business adding stress to the situation.
I hear what you're saying. But the "media" and "politics" is where this discussion is playing out. I support these with my vote. I used to be a one-issue voter along the line of anti-abortion (yes, I usually held my nose and voted Republican). But life has changed how I see this. Being pro-birth vs pro-life has forced me to look at the calculus a little differently. I will support the party that is for a strong and dignified safety net, comprehensive sex education, ACTUAL free and easily accessible birth control and contraception. I think abortion is the wrong call 99% of the time (and only "understandable" the other 1%). But I think they should be safe and available for those who need it.

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I'm not sure if you thought I was thinking teenagers should have access to abortions? I didn't state anything of the sort, but maybe you were following your own thread? I tried to respond.

Thanks for the conversation. Sincerely.

I believe that we CAN find common ground and that we should.

Oldbear83 said:

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Socialism again, Waco? Go visit East Europe, they are finally starting to recover from what Socialism and Communism did to their land and people.

Your plans would only make slaves of the people you pretend to help, create a permanent underclass.

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We're living in a modern robber-baron age. Income disparity is off the charts and growing. Its not "welfare" that caused it.

America is the only first world country that doesn't have universal healthcare and have the worst healthcare outcomes, but hey, at least we pay more than anyone else for it!

We have to stop dismissing everything like that as "socialism." Capitalism unchecked is exactly as corrosive and toxic as pure socialism. There's things that can be taken from both.

Poli board is beginning to feel like Sicem365 boards back during Briles firing when BBL would share his massive Title 9 experience

I wake and hop on here and 3 straight obsessive BBL posts?

That's really unattractive

BrooksBearLives said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Socialism again, Waco? Go visit East Europe, they are finally starting to recover from what Socialism and Communism did to their land and people.

Your plans would only make slaves of the people you pretend to help, create a permanent underclass.

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We're living in a modern robber-baron age. Income disparity is off the charts and growing. Its not "welfare" that caused it.

America is the only first world country that doesn't have universal healthcare and have the worst healthcare outcomes, but hey, at least we pay more than anyone else for it!

We have to stop dismissing everything like that as "socialism." Capitalism unchecked is exactly as corrosive and toxic as pure socialism. There's things that can be taken from both.

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I disagree, but let's discuss wealth and income and taxes and so on in another thread. There's a lot here on the original topic that is worth discussing without the distraction.