TexasScientist said:
Quote:
It's still not clear what you think your morality is based on. You claim that it's supported by objective evidence, but the same could be said for Christian morality. You haven't demonstrated that your underlying assumptions are any less arbitrary than anyone else's.
My claim is morality and values should be based upon objective evidence. Christians could do the same, as could Muslims. To some extent Christians already do that in the sense that, and to the extent that, accepted minimal secular morals and values are codified into law in this country. In contrast, much of Islam's minimal morals are taken from the Quran as law.
Morals are rooted in the cultural norms determined by people. Those norms can either be influenced and determined by religious arbitrary beliefs, or as I would suggest, by taking a humanistic science of morality approach, taking into account the well being of others. Either way, morals and values are the product of our brains, and culture reinforces and influences what goes into our brain. Those values and morals are based upon a perception about the well being of conscious beings, and relate to a range of potential happiness and suffering. Regardless of source, morals and values can be reduced down to concerns about, and changes in our conscious experience. You can base them upon religion and your perception of how your status and conscious experience in an afterlife will be affected, or you can base them upon objective evidence as to the status of your conscious experience in the present life, in terms of well being, flourishing, and suffering. One set of values is based upon a perceived set of facts through belief in divine revelation, and the other upon scientifically and objectively determined factual truths about reality. These determinations are made and realized in our brain.
Experientially and factually, we can determine which relative states of our existence are the most desirable or ideal in terms of our well being, and in terms of suffering and flourishing. We can organize our cultural moral values around these objectively determined factual truths, in the sense that there are right and wrong answers to questions of our well being, flourishing, or suffering. A culture's set of values can be understood through scientific factual findings about the conscious experience of conscious beings. Objectively determined facts about these findings can be reduced values/morals, values/morals which correspond and relate to differences in the individual and collective well being of other sentient beings. Any cultural norms applied to others that fall outside of these objectively determined facts would be an infringement and impairment to the wellbeing of others, and therefore wrong.
I want to thank you for causing me to think about things more deeply than I have in quite a few years. I think you mentioned you were raised in the church. I was raised a believer by believers; Southern Baptist from birth of the sort that went to church twice on Sundays and again on Wednesday night. Started going to Baylor football games as kid on Royal Ambassador Day back in the '60s. Ended up getting 2 degrees from Baylor in the '70s. Actually started as a Voice major thinking I might be called to the music ministry and spent a couple of summers in college doing interim music and youth work. However, I came to understand that my keyboard skills would never be sufficient to earn a degree, so changed to Business after my freshman year. Stayed in the A Cappella Choir the rest of my undergrad days, though. Still love great choral music.
Had the great pleasure of hearing Francis Schaeffer speak at Chapel. Followed him afterwards to an informal gathering at the Student Union Building where he spoke at some length. Following that, I became quite interested in theology of the Reformed variety. Started taking theology more seriously, but it morphed into something of an intellectual exercise over the next 10-15 years. By my mid-30's I had started a family, started a business, and lost loved ones; particularly painful was the untimely loss of my much loved mother-in-law. We watched her slip away over a couple of years beset by Alzheimer's and multiple strokes. It was the most painful experience of my life at that point. I was extremely angry with God. How could such a loving and Godly woman suffer so? I really started to question my faith and continued in a self-imposed separation from God for a few years. But, time moves on and we can't sustain our hurt and anger indefinitely. Started back into Theology and Apologetics. The more I studied, the more I came to understand that faith and belief are not, at their hearts, intellectual exercises. We cannot "prove" our beliefs in the same way we can prove an equation. All along I had attempted to reason my way to God, but I came to see that that's not ever going to get me all the way to belief. I believe CS Lewis made some comment to the effect that faith can move one to the shore, but it can't get you into the ocean (i.e., belief). I have found that to be true for me. By my late '40s, tired of the move to Contemporary-styled worship and longing for a better way forward, I was confirmed in the Episcopal Church where I could at least do the sort of music I did in college. The Canterbury Trail opened my eyes and mind to a different way of thinking about faith. Won't go into the details, but I am so happy to have been able to recover the Catholic aspects of faith, the writings of the Church Fathers, and the centuries of thought and teaching that were not part of my Baptist upbringing. The biggest change has been that I no longer feel compelled to reason my way to God, but choose instead to embrace the mystery. I don't need to know the answer to every possible objection to the faith or every theological question, either. I am content to depend on God's Grace and provision. However things work in His economy, it isn't up to me to make it work - just humbly accept and be grateful.
I don't know how you got to where you are in your beliefs. My bedrock belief is that most people are people of faith of some sort. This may be manifest in the form of some conventional religious practice or tradition, or it may take the form of a secular-appearing system that attempts to create a form of morality without the need of a Creator. In my view, there either is a God (or gods), or there is not. If there is not, then there is no rational basis for morality beyond what each individual desires in the moment. If there is a Creator, there is purpose and meaning. If no Creator, then no purpose or meaning. However, most people (and perhaps, you?) cannot accept the reality of meaninglessness and utter lack of purpose in a random universe that is totally indifferent. Consequently, they struggle to find ways to justify meaning and impart purpose. I think this is where you are. You cannot tolerate the abyss of nothingness, so you construct an alternate by faith. My prayer for you this Advent season is that you find your way to a faith that fulfills and ultimate redeems you.
"Almighty God, give us grace that we may cast away the
works of darkness, and put upon us the armor of light, now
in the time of this mortal life in which thy Son Jesus Christ
came to visit us in great humility; that in the last day, when
he shall come again in his glorious majesty to judge both the
quick and the dead, we may rise to the life immortal; through
him who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Ghost,
one God, now and for ever.
Amen. Book of Common Prayer