Why Is Texas So Far Behind Other States in Responding to the Coronavirus?

18,727 Views | 216 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Flaming Moderate
Jacques Strap
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Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.


South Dakota ranks 48th in the nation in public transportation usage, and 49th in deaths per million from Covid-19.
New York ranks #1 in both
New Jersey ranks #2 in both.
If only there were a discernible trend.
Flaming Moderate
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Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
Osodecentx
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Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.


What about prohibiting the purchase of seeds?

What about prohibiting church but allowing marijuana stores to remain open?

Are you really seeing consistency in this forest of ad hoc regulations?
ATL Bear
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Subways like airplanes are definitely unsafe places to be during a pandemic with a virus that can survive on surfaces and in the air for as long as 72 hours.
Sam Lowry
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Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home policy who latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam Lowry
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Osodecentx said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.


What about prohibiting the purchase of seeds?

What about prohibiting church but allowing marijuana stores to remain open?

Are you really seeing consistency in this forest of ad hoc regulations?
THC is a valuable pain management tool for many people, without the side effects of other medications.

I strongly disagree with prohibiting the purchase of seeds for crops. That makes no sense. I have heard, at least in some cases, that stores were shut down because they were predominantly involved in other business and only sold a tiny volume of seeds in order to stay open.
Flaming Moderate
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Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Jacques Strap
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ATL Bear said:

Subways like airplanes are definitely unsafe places to be during a pandemic with a virus that can survive on surfaces and in the air for as long as 72 hours.
Concur. Mardi Gras and music festivals are also bad places to be.
Detriot... well that is a bad place to be regardless of the virus.
Sam Lowry
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Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more insistent until eventually it was treated as fact. The argument isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The argument is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of a stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Oldbear83
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Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more confident until eventually it was treated as fact. The point isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The point is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this argument. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason for this - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of some stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Thanks for your post Sam, but I find your comments well out of line.

I start with the last one. You admitted in your own post that public transportation is spreading the virus. While I agree that a lot of people need to use public transportation to get to essential jobs, especially in NYC, that does not make questions about subways an "ad hominem", since the point remains that a known spreader of the virus is allowed to continue, so allowing far less risky businesses to open is a very reasonable argument. You might make the case that we cannot afford to open those businesses now, but you are out of line to argue that raising the question is illegitimate.

Also, it's perjorative to assume that opponents of the shut downs are bringing up the subways just to explain their opposition. Your use of that argument attempts to disqualify valid criticism without real consideration of the complaint or providing real response. It's tone deaf on the same level as Gov. Cuomo's cheap shot that New Yorkers who are desperate to go back to work should be glad they are not dead.

There are some good points made on each end of this debate about how government should act and where limits should apply, and there are some emotions which damage the opportunity for good discussion. No one is going to make a decision based on what we say here, but rejecting valid arguments out of hand just because you do not like them is childish and petty, Sam.
Flaming Moderate
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more insistent until eventually it was treated as fact. The argument isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The argument is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of a stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Reasonable people can respectfully disagree. For me the, the refusal to close public transportation demonstrates that people really are not taking this seriously. You can dismiss studies conducted by top-20 university all day long, and I certainly understand the Academy is far from perfect, but it is consistent with basic common sense. With all respect, I think your confirmation bias is coloring your perspective. Similarly, you assertions about medical personnel and groceries are not supported by evidence. I assume you have been to New York - I have been myriad times. Not only are there bodegas on every street corner, but I have seen less than 10 people carrying groceries. It is not as if there are not alternative modes of transportation - with the lockdown, a cab or ride share would be much faster and less deadly. Places like Dallas are much worse. I will be accountable for not having data either, but I am 99.99% sure there is not a single person in Dallas in the medical profession that could not access a vehicle, especially now with the lockdown even folks that regularly rely on DART likely has a friend or family member not driving to work. Those needing food have access to myriad social services. We're printing money and setting it on fire, so why not just pay for medical personnel's ride share. To me it has always pointed to the inconsistency in the lockdown and when push comes to shove, the hysteria is not practiced as preached.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more insistent until eventually it was treated as fact. The argument isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The argument is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of a stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Reasonable people can respectfully disagree. For me the, the refusal to close public transportation demonstrates that people really are not taking this seriously. You can dismiss studies conducted by top-20 university all day long, and I certainly understand the Academy is far from perfect, but it is consistent with basic common sense. With all respect, I think your confirmation bias is coloring your perspective. Similarly, you assertions about medical personnel and groceries are not supported by evidence. I assume you have been to New York - I have been myriad times. Not only are there bodegas on every street corner, but I have seen less than 10 people carrying groceries. It is not as if there are not alternative modes of transportation - with the lockdown, a cab or ride share would be much faster and less deadly. Places like Dallas are much worse. I will be accountable for not having data either, but I am 99.99% sure there is not a single person in Dallas in the medical profession that could not access a vehicle, especially now with the lockdown even folks that regularly rely on DART likely has a friend or family member not driving to work. Those needing food have access to myriad social services. We're printing money and setting it on fire, so why not just pay for medical personnel's ride share. To me it has always pointed to the inconsistency in the lockdown and when push comes to shove, the hysteria is not practiced as preached.
I'm not dismissing the study. I'm pointing out that it's not peer-reviewed, published, or widely accepted. It may turn out to be correct despite that. It is not currently correct to say that public transportation is agreed to be the biggest spreader of the disease.

Over 50% of essential workers in NYC, including healthcare workers and grocery clerks, use public transportation. That's a fact. Other large cities rely on it to varying degrees. NYC's transit system in particular is notoriously run down and inadequate, so it's fair to presume that many would avoid the inconvenience if they could. Not everyone can take a cab. Not everyone has a friend or family member who can accommodate their schedule indefinitely.
Jacques Strap
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more insistent until eventually it was treated as fact. The argument isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The argument is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of a stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Reasonable people can respectfully disagree. For me the, the refusal to close public transportation demonstrates that people really are not taking this seriously. You can dismiss studies conducted by top-20 university all day long, and I certainly understand the Academy is far from perfect, but it is consistent with basic common sense. With all respect, I think your confirmation bias is coloring your perspective. Similarly, you assertions about medical personnel and groceries are not supported by evidence. I assume you have been to New York - I have been myriad times. Not only are there bodegas on every street corner, but I have seen less than 10 people carrying groceries. It is not as if there are not alternative modes of transportation - with the lockdown, a cab or ride share would be much faster and less deadly. Places like Dallas are much worse. I will be accountable for not having data either, but I am 99.99% sure there is not a single person in Dallas in the medical profession that could not access a vehicle, especially now with the lockdown even folks that regularly rely on DART likely has a friend or family member not driving to work. Those needing food have access to myriad social services. We're printing money and setting it on fire, so why not just pay for medical personnel's ride share. To me it has always pointed to the inconsistency in the lockdown and when push comes to shove, the hysteria is not practiced as preached.
I'm not dismissing the study. I'm pointing out that it's not peer-reviewed, published, or widely accepted. It may turn out to be correct despite that. It is not currently correct to say that public transportation is agreed to be the biggest spreader of the disease.

Over 50% of essential workers in NYC, including healthcare workers and grocery clerks, use public transportation. That's a fact. Other large cities rely on it to varying degrees. NYC's transit system in particular is notoriously run down and inadequate, so it's fair to presume that many would avoid the inconvenience if they could. Not everyone can take a cab. Not everyone has a friend or family member who can accommodate their schedule indefinitely.
If only we could identify what it is about NYC that has caused it to have so many more cases than other large metro areas in the US. We must keep searching for this elusive variable.
Flaming Moderate
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more insistent until eventually it was treated as fact. The argument isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The argument is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of a stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Reasonable people can respectfully disagree. For me the, the refusal to close public transportation demonstrates that people really are not taking this seriously. You can dismiss studies conducted by top-20 university all day long, and I certainly understand the Academy is far from perfect, but it is consistent with basic common sense. With all respect, I think your confirmation bias is coloring your perspective. Similarly, you assertions about medical personnel and groceries are not supported by evidence. I assume you have been to New York - I have been myriad times. Not only are there bodegas on every street corner, but I have seen less than 10 people carrying groceries. It is not as if there are not alternative modes of transportation - with the lockdown, a cab or ride share would be much faster and less deadly. Places like Dallas are much worse. I will be accountable for not having data either, but I am 99.99% sure there is not a single person in Dallas in the medical profession that could not access a vehicle, especially now with the lockdown even folks that regularly rely on DART likely has a friend or family member not driving to work. Those needing food have access to myriad social services. We're printing money and setting it on fire, so why not just pay for medical personnel's ride share. To me it has always pointed to the inconsistency in the lockdown and when push comes to shove, the hysteria is not practiced as preached.
I'm not dismissing the study. I'm pointing out that it's not peer-reviewed, published, or widely accepted. It may turn out to be correct despite that. It is not currently correct to say that public transportation is agreed to be the biggest spreader of the disease.

Over 50% of essential workers in NYC, including healthcare workers and grocery clerks, use public transportation. That's a fact. Other large cities rely on it to varying degrees. NYC's transit system in particular is notoriously run down and inadequate, so it's fair to presume that many would avoid the inconvenience if they could. Not everyone can take a cab. Not everyone has a friend or family member who can accommodate their schedule indefinitely.
I'm assuming you have a peer-reviewed, published, and widely accepted study that bears that out. I'm not being intentionally confrontational, but seems like you may be applying different standards. And if you want to argue that public transportation is the the single biggest spreader of the disease, I have some crude oil to sell you.

But take it out of NYC - what about a city like Dallas. Should it close public transportation?
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more insistent until eventually it was treated as fact. The argument isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The argument is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of a stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Reasonable people can respectfully disagree. For me the, the refusal to close public transportation demonstrates that people really are not taking this seriously. You can dismiss studies conducted by top-20 university all day long, and I certainly understand the Academy is far from perfect, but it is consistent with basic common sense. With all respect, I think your confirmation bias is coloring your perspective. Similarly, you assertions about medical personnel and groceries are not supported by evidence. I assume you have been to New York - I have been myriad times. Not only are there bodegas on every street corner, but I have seen less than 10 people carrying groceries. It is not as if there are not alternative modes of transportation - with the lockdown, a cab or ride share would be much faster and less deadly. Places like Dallas are much worse. I will be accountable for not having data either, but I am 99.99% sure there is not a single person in Dallas in the medical profession that could not access a vehicle, especially now with the lockdown even folks that regularly rely on DART likely has a friend or family member not driving to work. Those needing food have access to myriad social services. We're printing money and setting it on fire, so why not just pay for medical personnel's ride share. To me it has always pointed to the inconsistency in the lockdown and when push comes to shove, the hysteria is not practiced as preached.
I'm not dismissing the study. I'm pointing out that it's not peer-reviewed, published, or widely accepted. It may turn out to be correct despite that. It is not currently correct to say that public transportation is agreed to be the biggest spreader of the disease.

Over 50% of essential workers in NYC, including healthcare workers and grocery clerks, use public transportation. That's a fact. Other large cities rely on it to varying degrees. NYC's transit system in particular is notoriously run down and inadequate, so it's fair to presume that many would avoid the inconvenience if they could. Not everyone can take a cab. Not everyone has a friend or family member who can accommodate their schedule indefinitely.
I'm assuming you have a peer-reviewed, published, and widely accepted study that bears that out. I'm not being intentionally confrontational, but seems like you may be applying different standards. And if you want to argue that public transportation is the the single biggest spreader of the disease, I have some crude oil to sell you.

But take it out of NYC - what about a city like Dallas. Should it close public transportation?
The number of stock boys who ride the bus on a given day isn't exactly the sort of highly technical question that peer-reviewed studies are meant to resolve. It's more like something you'd pull up on a city website.

DFW considers public transportation essential for the same reasons. They're on the lower end in terms of total usage, but like other cities their ridership will consist disproportionately of the hourly wage-earners who do the frontline work. I don't have any reason to doubt them when they say essential services would be affected.
Flaming Moderate
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more insistent until eventually it was treated as fact. The argument isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The argument is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of a stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Reasonable people can respectfully disagree. For me the, the refusal to close public transportation demonstrates that people really are not taking this seriously. You can dismiss studies conducted by top-20 university all day long, and I certainly understand the Academy is far from perfect, but it is consistent with basic common sense. With all respect, I think your confirmation bias is coloring your perspective. Similarly, you assertions about medical personnel and groceries are not supported by evidence. I assume you have been to New York - I have been myriad times. Not only are there bodegas on every street corner, but I have seen less than 10 people carrying groceries. It is not as if there are not alternative modes of transportation - with the lockdown, a cab or ride share would be much faster and less deadly. Places like Dallas are much worse. I will be accountable for not having data either, but I am 99.99% sure there is not a single person in Dallas in the medical profession that could not access a vehicle, especially now with the lockdown even folks that regularly rely on DART likely has a friend or family member not driving to work. Those needing food have access to myriad social services. We're printing money and setting it on fire, so why not just pay for medical personnel's ride share. To me it has always pointed to the inconsistency in the lockdown and when push comes to shove, the hysteria is not practiced as preached.
I'm not dismissing the study. I'm pointing out that it's not peer-reviewed, published, or widely accepted. It may turn out to be correct despite that. It is not currently correct to say that public transportation is agreed to be the biggest spreader of the disease.

Over 50% of essential workers in NYC, including healthcare workers and grocery clerks, use public transportation. That's a fact. Other large cities rely on it to varying degrees. NYC's transit system in particular is notoriously run down and inadequate, so it's fair to presume that many would avoid the inconvenience if they could. Not everyone can take a cab. Not everyone has a friend or family member who can accommodate their schedule indefinitely.
I'm assuming you have a peer-reviewed, published, and widely accepted study that bears that out. I'm not being intentionally confrontational, but seems like you may be applying different standards. And if you want to argue that public transportation is the the single biggest spreader of the disease, I have some crude oil to sell you.

But take it out of NYC - what about a city like Dallas. Should it close public transportation?
The number of stock boys who ride the bus on a given day isn't exactly the sort of highly technical question that peer-reviewed studies are meant to resolve. It's more like something you'd pull up on a city website.

DFW considers public transportation essential for the same reasons. They're on the lower end in terms of total usage, but like other cities their ridership will consist disproportionately of the hourly wage-earners who do the frontline work. I don't have any reason to doubt them when they say essential services would be affected.

Texas continues to lag far behind other states. Total cases are 21.069. We have passed Georgia but remain behind the usual suspects like Michigan, California, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Pennsylvania.
trey3216
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more insistent until eventually it was treated as fact. The argument isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The argument is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of a stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Reasonable people can respectfully disagree. For me the, the refusal to close public transportation demonstrates that people really are not taking this seriously. You can dismiss studies conducted by top-20 university all day long, and I certainly understand the Academy is far from perfect, but it is consistent with basic common sense. With all respect, I think your confirmation bias is coloring your perspective. Similarly, you assertions about medical personnel and groceries are not supported by evidence. I assume you have been to New York - I have been myriad times. Not only are there bodegas on every street corner, but I have seen less than 10 people carrying groceries. It is not as if there are not alternative modes of transportation - with the lockdown, a cab or ride share would be much faster and less deadly. Places like Dallas are much worse. I will be accountable for not having data either, but I am 99.99% sure there is not a single person in Dallas in the medical profession that could not access a vehicle, especially now with the lockdown even folks that regularly rely on DART likely has a friend or family member not driving to work. Those needing food have access to myriad social services. We're printing money and setting it on fire, so why not just pay for medical personnel's ride share. To me it has always pointed to the inconsistency in the lockdown and when push comes to shove, the hysteria is not practiced as preached.


There are a lot of other essential workers in New York that are not in the medical field that utilize the subway system as well. A lot of them are poor, and a lot of them utilize the public transit system for work and for grocery shopping. If you have never seen people in New York with their groceries on a subway, then you either were not paying attention or on it at the wrong time.

Same thing in Dallas. A lot of people in South Dallas use public transit to get from home to the grocery store. They also use DART to get to work. These are facts. But keep swinging that sword wildly upon that hill. It's not a hill worthy of dying on.

Of all the things I agree with you regarding the shutdown, this is not one of them
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
Flaming Moderate
How long do you want to ignore this user?
trey3216 said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more insistent until eventually it was treated as fact. The argument isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The argument is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of a stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Reasonable people can respectfully disagree. For me the, the refusal to close public transportation demonstrates that people really are not taking this seriously. You can dismiss studies conducted by top-20 university all day long, and I certainly understand the Academy is far from perfect, but it is consistent with basic common sense. With all respect, I think your confirmation bias is coloring your perspective. Similarly, you assertions about medical personnel and groceries are not supported by evidence. I assume you have been to New York - I have been myriad times. Not only are there bodegas on every street corner, but I have seen less than 10 people carrying groceries. It is not as if there are not alternative modes of transportation - with the lockdown, a cab or ride share would be much faster and less deadly. Places like Dallas are much worse. I will be accountable for not having data either, but I am 99.99% sure there is not a single person in Dallas in the medical profession that could not access a vehicle, especially now with the lockdown even folks that regularly rely on DART likely has a friend or family member not driving to work. Those needing food have access to myriad social services. We're printing money and setting it on fire, so why not just pay for medical personnel's ride share. To me it has always pointed to the inconsistency in the lockdown and when push comes to shove, the hysteria is not practiced as preached.


There are a lot of other essential workers in New York that are not in the medical field that utilize the subway system as well. A lot of them are poor, and a lot of them utilize the public transit system for work and for grocery shopping. If you have never seen people in New York with their groceries on a subway, then you either were not paying attention or on it at the wrong time.

Same thing in Dallas. A lot of people in South Dallas use public transit to get from home to the grocery store. They also use DART to get to work. These are facts. But keep swinging that sword wildly upon that hill. It's not a hill worthy of dying on.

Of all the things I agree with you regarding the shutdown, this is not one of them
Please understand, I am not trying to be intentionally confrontational, but the goalposts keep moving.

For example, read this thread:
- One on post, a poster is pointing out technical flaws in a study because it does not fit her POV
- In another post, that same poster is make generalized, unsubstantiated claims and calling them "facts"

Similarly, maybe not on this thread but others:
- If you want to open the economy, you're selfish and don't care about old people
- So bad that logic, by keeping open public transportation you're selfish and don't care about old people

So I assume by your post you do not believe "facts" need to be supported by evidence and you're selfish and do not care about old people, correct? Do you agree with that?

Of course you don't because you're not. It just shows why injecting emotion into a rational discussion is unhelpful. However, the fact remains that public transportation is unquestionably the single biggest spreader of the disease - much more dangerous that going to Home Depot. The fact that the hysterics want to keep it open shows the hysterics are not completely genuine. Anyone with common sense can connect the dots. Those refusing too just show their cards.
trey3216
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Flaming Moderate said:

trey3216 said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more insistent until eventually it was treated as fact. The argument isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The argument is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of a stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Reasonable people can respectfully disagree. For me the, the refusal to close public transportation demonstrates that people really are not taking this seriously. You can dismiss studies conducted by top-20 university all day long, and I certainly understand the Academy is far from perfect, but it is consistent with basic common sense. With all respect, I think your confirmation bias is coloring your perspective. Similarly, you assertions about medical personnel and groceries are not supported by evidence. I assume you have been to New York - I have been myriad times. Not only are there bodegas on every street corner, but I have seen less than 10 people carrying groceries. It is not as if there are not alternative modes of transportation - with the lockdown, a cab or ride share would be much faster and less deadly. Places like Dallas are much worse. I will be accountable for not having data either, but I am 99.99% sure there is not a single person in Dallas in the medical profession that could not access a vehicle, especially now with the lockdown even folks that regularly rely on DART likely has a friend or family member not driving to work. Those needing food have access to myriad social services. We're printing money and setting it on fire, so why not just pay for medical personnel's ride share. To me it has always pointed to the inconsistency in the lockdown and when push comes to shove, the hysteria is not practiced as preached.


There are a lot of other essential workers in New York that are not in the medical field that utilize the subway system as well. A lot of them are poor, and a lot of them utilize the public transit system for work and for grocery shopping. If you have never seen people in New York with their groceries on a subway, then you either were not paying attention or on it at the wrong time.

Same thing in Dallas. A lot of people in South Dallas use public transit to get from home to the grocery store. They also use DART to get to work. These are facts. But keep swinging that sword wildly upon that hill. It's not a hill worthy of dying on.

Of all the things I agree with you regarding the shutdown, this is not one of them
Please understand, I am not trying to be intentionally confrontational, but the goalposts keep moving.

For example, read this thread:
- One on post, a poster is pointing out technical flaws in a study because it does not fit her POV
- In another post, that same poster is make generalized, unsubstantiated claims and calling them "facts"

Similarly, maybe not on this thread but others:
- If you want to open the economy, you're selfish and don't care about old people
- So bad that logic, by keeping open public transportation you're selfish and don't care about old people

So I assume by your post you do not believe "facts" need to be supported by evidence and you're selfish and do not care about old people, correct? Do you agree with that?

Of course you don't because you're not. It just shows why injecting emotion into a rational discussion is unhelpful. However, the fact remains that public transportation is unquestionably the single biggest spreader of the disease - much more dangerous that going to Home Depot. The fact that the hysterics want to keep it open shows the hysterics are not completely genuine. Anyone with common sense can connect the dots. Those refusing too just show their cards.
I never said I disagreed with Public Transportation being a large, if not biggest spreader of the virus. I merely said it is an essential function of our society.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
Flaming Moderate
How long do you want to ignore this user?
trey3216 said:

Flaming Moderate said:

trey3216 said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more insistent until eventually it was treated as fact. The argument isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The argument is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of a stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Reasonable people can respectfully disagree. For me the, the refusal to close public transportation demonstrates that people really are not taking this seriously. You can dismiss studies conducted by top-20 university all day long, and I certainly understand the Academy is far from perfect, but it is consistent with basic common sense. With all respect, I think your confirmation bias is coloring your perspective. Similarly, you assertions about medical personnel and groceries are not supported by evidence. I assume you have been to New York - I have been myriad times. Not only are there bodegas on every street corner, but I have seen less than 10 people carrying groceries. It is not as if there are not alternative modes of transportation - with the lockdown, a cab or ride share would be much faster and less deadly. Places like Dallas are much worse. I will be accountable for not having data either, but I am 99.99% sure there is not a single person in Dallas in the medical profession that could not access a vehicle, especially now with the lockdown even folks that regularly rely on DART likely has a friend or family member not driving to work. Those needing food have access to myriad social services. We're printing money and setting it on fire, so why not just pay for medical personnel's ride share. To me it has always pointed to the inconsistency in the lockdown and when push comes to shove, the hysteria is not practiced as preached.


There are a lot of other essential workers in New York that are not in the medical field that utilize the subway system as well. A lot of them are poor, and a lot of them utilize the public transit system for work and for grocery shopping. If you have never seen people in New York with their groceries on a subway, then you either were not paying attention or on it at the wrong time.

Same thing in Dallas. A lot of people in South Dallas use public transit to get from home to the grocery store. They also use DART to get to work. These are facts. But keep swinging that sword wildly upon that hill. It's not a hill worthy of dying on.

Of all the things I agree with you regarding the shutdown, this is not one of them
Please understand, I am not trying to be intentionally confrontational, but the goalposts keep moving.

For example, read this thread:
- One on post, a poster is pointing out technical flaws in a study because it does not fit her POV
- In another post, that same poster is make generalized, unsubstantiated claims and calling them "facts"

Similarly, maybe not on this thread but others:
- If you want to open the economy, you're selfish and don't care about old people
- So bad that logic, by keeping open public transportation you're selfish and don't care about old people

So I assume by your post you do not believe "facts" need to be supported by evidence and you're selfish and do not care about old people, correct? Do you agree with that?

Of course you don't because you're not. It just shows why injecting emotion into a rational discussion is unhelpful. However, the fact remains that public transportation is unquestionably the single biggest spreader of the disease - much more dangerous that going to Home Depot. The fact that the hysterics want to keep it open shows the hysterics are not completely genuine. Anyone with common sense can connect the dots. Those refusing too just show their cards.
I never said I disagreed with Public Transportation being a large, if not biggest spreader of the virus. I merely said it is an essential function of our society.
Understand. I was not implying you. And I agree public transportation is important. I just disagree people will die in the streets or we cannot have functioning health care without it, especially in cities like Dallas. It is not like Dallas and NYC don't have cabs or ride share apps ... or bicycles. We're all making sacrifices - odd that the same folks that tend to tell us "sacrifice for old people's lives" think it in unreasonable for other's to sacrifice. Feel like there may be a little something else at work here.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Flaming Moderate said:

trey3216 said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Sam Lowry said:

Flaming Moderate said:

Jacques Strap said:

Flaming Moderate said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

At 2500 cases and 34 deaths in Texas, you'd think there would be some praise on how it has been handled.
That's about where New York was 12 days ago, except they had half as many deaths.
A city like New York is prime for a virus spread. People living on top of each other reliant upon public transportation. I'm willing to bet Texas won't get nearly as bad given measures taken thus far, and that infected people won't be crammed on buses and subways on their way to and from the hospital.
It has flummoxed me that cities will not shut down public transportation. I am not a clinician, but that seems like a pretty significant means to spread any virus, especially one that can live outside the body on metal surfaces. Worse too, it de-localizes the spread. Most people usually go out close to home, but public transportation spreads it across the entire region. Dallas for example is still running DART, which means an infected person in South Dallas and spread it to Plano and vice versa.
A lot of things in the shut down do not make sense.

Target can sell clothing but shops cannot?
I can ride public transportation but I can't get my hair cut?
I can stand in line at Kroger and mingle with people in the narrow aisles but I cannot go other stores that have items I need and want?
Government contruction can continue but private construction cannot.
Some factories are open and some are closed.


To quote John Wiley Price - you can get your pet's hair cut but not yours. Part of why I have not been able fully to take this seriously is this kind of thing - they same people wanting to stay locked down defend keeping public transportation open, which pretty much experts agree is the single biggest spreader of the disease.

Same with take out - if the virus can live outside the body, getting takeout is about as dangerous as going to a restaurant. Same with the free lunch programs continuing. Or I can buy lottery tickets, weed, and booze but not garden seeds. Somebody is using personal agendas to drive lockdown decisions.
There are good reasons for most of these policies. Pet haircuts and takeout involve less person-to-person contact. Free lunch programs feed people. Keeping liquor stores open reduces strain on the healthcare system in the short term. There's no expert agreement that public transportation is a particularly big problem compared with other spreaders of the disease. In fact the opinion is to the contrary. Public transportation is also important for keeping grocery and medical services in operation.
You're reaching at any crazy excuse to justify. Pet haircuts are about the furthest from essential, so even if the risk is low, why do it? Can you provide an evidence that public transportation is necessary for grocery and medical services?

And your other article is just wrong: https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/mit-study-subways-a-major-disseminator-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/. Anxiously awaiting how MIT is biased and unreliable much like you do not trust USC and Stanford.
The MIT paper is addressed in the first link, grocery and medical services in the second. I don't have any problem with the schools you reference; I've just pointed out when posters cited sources that weren't peer-reviewed or weren't written by people with relevant expertise.

The public transportation issue is a good example of agenda-driven argument, though not on my side. It was the opponents of the stay-at-home who policy latched onto a poorly developed theory in order to explain away its benefits. The theory may or may not turn out to be true, but it's far from an expert consensus.
Sam - having read your posts for years, I always have respected your POV and thoughts, but you've really gone of the reservation on this issue to the point of I am starting to wonder if you are sock of Jinx of vice versa. You're exhibiting the same kind of non-sensical arguments and expecting no one to notice.

For example, what possible agenda other than reducing the spread of the virus could be behind wanting to close public transportation? That in and of itself is an agenda-driven response. And then apparently with no sense of irony, you post an article for an agenda-driven web site criticizing an article by a university, which has no apparent agenda and if it did, absolutely no agains public transportation.

Second, the argument that public transportation does not spread the disease not only defies every other pro-lockdown argument you have made but also common sense bolstered by scientific data.

Third, again without irony, you post an article from public transportation officials saying "people ride transit." It is doubly ironic, purely agenda driven, and lacks data and certainly would not pass muster of the CityLab article you posted. Show us data: how many people ride public transportation every day in the medical field for which they have no other alternative? how many people ride public transportation every day for groceries who have no alternative? Do you have any evidence that people in cities without public transportation are facing a shortage of medical personnel or people are starving to death? Seems like this would be the case if it was necessary for survival or medical care?

It is hard to take this seriously when the same people most hysterical about the Wuhan Virus are the most incredulous about slowing the biggest spreaders.
Appreciate the respectful words. Maybe I can clarify some of my points.

I don't think anyone actually wants to close public transportation. What happened was that many cities appeared to have benefited from ordering shutdowns quicker than New York. Opponents of the shutdown needed an explanation, so they started speculating that New York was worse off because of its subways. The speculation became more and more insistent until eventually it was treated as fact. The argument isn't that public transportation ought to be closed. The argument is that since it's still open, everything else should be too. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it's not based on evidence. Second, you're arguing against shutdowns by saying we'd have less disease if there were fewer places for people to gather in public. This is obviously not consistent with itself.

No one is saying that public transportation doesn't spread the disease. Undoubtedly it does. The question you raised is whether it's the "biggest spreader," or whether it's exceptionally dangerous as opposed to any other venue. Again, there's little evidence for this.

Finally, it makes no sense to imagine that people in cities without public transportation would starve. There's a very simple reason - cities without public transportation don't rely on public transportation. There are, however, cities that do rely on it. Non-essential businesses are closed, and ridership on public transportation is down. But people still need transportation for essential business, which includes groceries and medical care. Less than half of New Yorkers own cars. In Manhattan it's less than a quarter. Tens of thousands of healthcare workers use public transportation in NYC every day.

We can all find some aspect of a stay-at-home order that we disagree with. There are some I disagree with myself. That doesn't mean the policy isn't serious or that we should reject it altogether. The "what about subways" argument is basically just a thinly disguised ad hominem.
Reasonable people can respectfully disagree. For me the, the refusal to close public transportation demonstrates that people really are not taking this seriously. You can dismiss studies conducted by top-20 university all day long, and I certainly understand the Academy is far from perfect, but it is consistent with basic common sense. With all respect, I think your confirmation bias is coloring your perspective. Similarly, you assertions about medical personnel and groceries are not supported by evidence. I assume you have been to New York - I have been myriad times. Not only are there bodegas on every street corner, but I have seen less than 10 people carrying groceries. It is not as if there are not alternative modes of transportation - with the lockdown, a cab or ride share would be much faster and less deadly. Places like Dallas are much worse. I will be accountable for not having data either, but I am 99.99% sure there is not a single person in Dallas in the medical profession that could not access a vehicle, especially now with the lockdown even folks that regularly rely on DART likely has a friend or family member not driving to work. Those needing food have access to myriad social services. We're printing money and setting it on fire, so why not just pay for medical personnel's ride share. To me it has always pointed to the inconsistency in the lockdown and when push comes to shove, the hysteria is not practiced as preached.


There are a lot of other essential workers in New York that are not in the medical field that utilize the subway system as well. A lot of them are poor, and a lot of them utilize the public transit system for work and for grocery shopping. If you have never seen people in New York with their groceries on a subway, then you either were not paying attention or on it at the wrong time.

Same thing in Dallas. A lot of people in South Dallas use public transit to get from home to the grocery store. They also use DART to get to work. These are facts. But keep swinging that sword wildly upon that hill. It's not a hill worthy of dying on.

Of all the things I agree with you regarding the shutdown, this is not one of them
However, my guess remains that public transportation is unquestionably the single biggest spreader of the disease - much more dangerous that going to Home Depot.
FIFY
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Texas continues to share a significantly lower percentage of cases vs. population as well as lag behind other states well known at this point. TexasScientist seems more capable of predicting the results of the virus, i.e. Texas being behind other states, than the Imperial Model. Unfortunately, we have pulled ahead of Georgia.
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For some, we should celebrate Texas as overtaken Louisiana in absolute cases. However, infection rate for Louisiana (0.64%) remains 6X Texas (0.11%). We still trail the other states we have been trailing since day one.

As an aside, Georgia has an incidence rate of 0.27% vs. Michigan's 0.44%.
TexasScientist
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Texans Brace for a COVID-19 'Explosion' Just Days After Reopening
LONE STAR PROBLEM

Prisons. Meat plants. Nursing homes. And nowhere near enough testing to know how bad the coronavirus problem is. Olivia Messer, reporter

The ascent of the novel coronavirus in the Lone Star State has been a gradual one. But as the state reopens its economy, infection counts are surgingand experts warn of a potential flood in the months ahead.
On March 4, the state health department reported Texas' first positive case of COVID-19. One month later, on April 4, there were 6,110 cases. As of MondayMay 4approximately 32,332 Texans had tested positive for the coronavirus, with an overnight uptick of 784. About 7,035 of those cases were confirmed in just one week, according to data analyzed by The Texas Tribune. And that's despite having one of the lowest testing rates in the nation.

Two counties lead the state's cases. Harris, which includes the city of Houston and is the third largest county in the United States, had 6,967 confirmed cases on Monday and more than 130 deaths, according to Dr. Umair A. Shah, executive director for the county's public health department. There were 129 new cases overnight, Shah told The Daily Beast.

On Sunday, Dallas County reported its highest new COVID-19 case total to date, with 234 additional positive resultsjust two days after Gov. Greg Abbott's statewide shelter-in-place order expired. As of 10 a.m. Monday, the county had reported 237 additional positive cases overnightanother recordbringing the total case count there to 4,370, including 114 deaths.

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins has repeatedly cautioned residents to continue social distancing despite Abbott's decision to reopen businesses on Friday. Abbott was just one in a laundry list of mostly Republican governors who recently launched aggressive efforts to reignite pandemic-ravaged economieseven as epidemiologists warn of possibly grave consequences.

But amid evidence of nationwide quarantine fatigue and revised models showing a surge in deaths expected in connection with COVID-19, public health experts in the state were keeping their eyes trained squarely on long-term care facilities and prisons. That's where they expected one of the most populous states in America to see its coronavirus future come into sharper, and more disturbing, focus.
"It's going to be scary going into the fall," said Diana Cervantes, director of the epidemiology program at the University of North Texas Health Science Center School of Public Health. "We're going to see a huge explosion of cases."

Neither Governor Abbott's office nor the Texas Department of State Health Services responded to questions from The Daily Beast on Monday. And to be clear, multiple experts warned that people leaving the house more often since the reopening may very well become infected, but that it would take days before symptoms present themselves, and longer to get test resultsif they can even acquire a test. In other words, any new surge tied to the reopening would not be clear for at least a week.


"For the state, the overall trend [of infections] is that the peaks are getting a little higher and a little wider," said Cervantes. "I think people get fatigued on doing these types of foundational public health measures to prevent transmission, like social-distancing and wearing masks."

As Dallas County data appeared to confirm on Monday, more than 40 percent of the state's coronavirus deaths are linked to long-term care facilities, which an analysis by the Tribune and ProPublica found last week. Jenkins, the county judge, told The Daily Beast that he hoped his community followed "the science," meaning the recommendations from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), public health officials, and major hospital chains in the area.

"They say that it's too early to open, that we haven't seen that two-week decline," Jenkins said, referring to federal guidance calling for a 14-day drop in new cases. "In fact, in Texas we haven't seen any decline. And we rank dead last in testing. So they're telling us to brace for worse infections because we didn't follow the science."

State health authorities have so far refused to name the nursing facilities with known casesor disclose the total number of infections across all such facilities in Texas.
Experts were sounding the alarm.

"What I am concerned about with reopening, is that, if facility staff broaden their contacts with people outside their household, then staff may acquire the virus and unknowingly bring it into the facility," said Patty Ducayet, the state's federally mandated long-term care ombudsman for more than a decade. "That's a risk of expanding our social networks before we have widespread testing and ample PPE supplies for all."

Jenkins said Dallas County was already "seeing a widespread outbreak in the general population."

"The main concern would be that the citizens would hear what the governor is saying and act on that and begin to do things like go to large group meetings, go to theaters, go hang out in restaurants and then spread a lot more disease and make this worse," he added. "But at this point it's up to each person in Texas to make good choices."
One of the worst known outbreaks in Texas stemmed from an assisted living facility in College Station, about 95 miles northwest of Houston. But there are approximately 1,200 nursing homes and 2,000 assisted living facilities in the state, and last week the Texas Health and Human Services Commission reported 242 resident deaths in nursing homes and 61 fatalities in assisted living facilities, the Tribune reported.
Ducayet said the percentage of fatal cases impacting long-term care residents "shows just how vulnerable they are." In some cases, she explained, a staff member working at more than one facility who may not have known they were exposed could have contaminated more than one facility.

Given the well-documented risks posed to the elderly by COVID-19, the lack of transparency about outbreaks there was glaring.

"Any place that's a congregate living setting is going to be highly susceptible to increased transmission," Cervantes said. "For any respiratory disease, we know that's the case, be it influenza or measlesanything transmitted via respiratory droplet."
Meanwhile, though Texas is behind a handful of other statesincluding Louisiana and Oklahomafor the highest incarceration rate in the country, it has 104 prisons, which house up to 150,000 inmates. Separately, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice also oversees 17 state jails in 16 counties, and a researcher at the agency the Texas Commission on Jail Standards told The Daily Beast on Monday that the agency regulates 239 county jails.
Unauthorized access.

As the pandemic spread through the state, the Beto Unit in Palestine, Texas, quickly became the biggest hotspot among Texas prisons, topping 200 cases last week, according to the Marshall Project. The Harris County Jail, on the other hand, was responsible for at least 132 of the cases in that county.
"In prisons and jails, the spread is like wildfire," said Michele Deitch, a senior lecturer and prison conditions expert at the University of Texas law school. "And almost certainly the number of prisoners with the virus is much greater than they realize because they aren't doing extensive testing."

"What's happening inside these prisons isn't staying inside these prisons," Deitch told The Daily Beast. "Staff are going back home to their communities each night."
In addition to congregate spaces like prisons and nursing homes, meatpacking plants have been the root of several clusters in the state.

Last week, the CDC announced that processing facilities in 19 states had reported 4,913 cases and 20 deaths among meat industry workers, signaling the need for greater protections. This week, infection rates per 1,000 people in Texas counties with hot spots tied to meatpacking plants continued to climb, according to the Tribune. For example, Moore Countythe home of the JBS Beef meatpacking planthas the highest reported infection rate in the state at 18.30 cases per 1,000.
The plantin a town called Cactusis operated by about 3,000 workers, most of them immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala or refugees from elsewhere, according to the Tribune.

Amarillo Mayor Ginger Nelson said over the weekend that a team of federal officials would help "attack" those clusters. The Department of State Health Services has said it was looking into outbreaks at JBS Beef and Tyson Foods in Shelby County, near the border with Louisiana.
In Harris County, coronavirus cases were two to three times more prevalent in some of Houston's poorest areas codes compared with the county overall, according to a Houston Chronicle analysis. The virus tended to cluster in predominantly black neighborhoods, the paper reported, in findings that mirrored a Georgia-specific analysis by the CDC last week, and larger trends showing COVID-19 hitting communities of color especially hard. Experts noted the high risk associated in some of these areas, where many residents have underlying medical conditions.
"Our concerns are obviously, now that we're reopening, that we don't want to go backward and see an uptick in cases and hospitalizations," said Shah, the Harris County health official. Over the weekend, he said, he observed more people on blankets, out fishing, and playing frisbee without distance or facial coverings.
There will be a lag, he explained, between when those who venture out and possibly contract the virus develop symptoms or seek tests. That's what health experts like him are bracing for.

"As people continue to come back into their lives, we want to make sure they remember this is not normal life as we knew it prior to COVID-19," said Shah. "We just have to keep reminding people that we have to protect ourselves and each other. Otherwise we're going to be in the same boat as we were before."
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TexasScientist said:

Texans Brace for a COVID-19 'Explosion' Just Days After Reopening
LONE STAR PROBLEM

Prisons. Meat plants. Nursing homes. And nowhere near enough testing to know how bad the coronavirus problem is. Olivia Messer, reporter

The ascent of the novel coronavirus in the Lone Star State has been a gradual one. But as the state reopens its economy, infection counts are surgingand experts warn of a potential flood in the months ahead.
On March 4, the state health department reported Texas' first positive case of COVID-19. One month later, on April 4, there were 6,110 cases. As of MondayMay 4approximately 32,332 Texans had tested positive for the coronavirus, with an overnight uptick of 784. About 7,035 of those cases were confirmed in just one week, according to data analyzed by The Texas Tribune. And that's despite having one of the lowest testing rates in the nation.

Two counties lead the state's cases. Harris, which includes the city of Houston and is the third largest county in the United States, had 6,967 confirmed cases on Monday and more than 130 deaths, according to Dr. Umair A. Shah, executive director for the county's public health department. There were 129 new cases overnight, Shah told The Daily Beast.

On Sunday, Dallas County reported its highest new COVID-19 case total to date, with 234 additional positive resultsjust two days after Gov. Greg Abbott's statewide shelter-in-place order expired. As of 10 a.m. Monday, the county had reported 237 additional positive cases overnightanother recordbringing the total case count there to 4,370, including 114 deaths.

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins has repeatedly cautioned residents to continue social distancing despite Abbott's decision to reopen businesses on Friday. Abbott was just one in a laundry list of mostly Republican governors who recently launched aggressive efforts to reignite pandemic-ravaged economieseven as epidemiologists warn of possibly grave consequences.

But amid evidence of nationwide quarantine fatigue and revised models showing a surge in deaths expected in connection with COVID-19, public health experts in the state were keeping their eyes trained squarely on long-term care facilities and prisons. That's where they expected one of the most populous states in America to see its coronavirus future come into sharper, and more disturbing, focus.
"It's going to be scary going into the fall," said Diana Cervantes, director of the epidemiology program at the University of North Texas Health Science Center School of Public Health. "We're going to see a huge explosion of cases."

Neither Governor Abbott's office nor the Texas Department of State Health Services responded to questions from The Daily Beast on Monday. And to be clear, multiple experts warned that people leaving the house more often since the reopening may very well become infected, but that it would take days before symptoms present themselves, and longer to get test resultsif they can even acquire a test. In other words, any new surge tied to the reopening would not be clear for at least a week.


"For the state, the overall trend [of infections] is that the peaks are getting a little higher and a little wider," said Cervantes. "I think people get fatigued on doing these types of foundational public health measures to prevent transmission, like social-distancing and wearing masks."

As Dallas County data appeared to confirm on Monday, more than 40 percent of the state's coronavirus deaths are linked to long-term care facilities, which an analysis by the Tribune and ProPublica found last week. Jenkins, the county judge, told The Daily Beast that he hoped his community followed "the science," meaning the recommendations from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), public health officials, and major hospital chains in the area.

"They say that it's too early to open, that we haven't seen that two-week decline," Jenkins said, referring to federal guidance calling for a 14-day drop in new cases. "In fact, in Texas we haven't seen any decline. And we rank dead last in testing. So they're telling us to brace for worse infections because we didn't follow the science."

State health authorities have so far refused to name the nursing facilities with known casesor disclose the total number of infections across all such facilities in Texas.
Experts were sounding the alarm.

"What I am concerned about with reopening, is that, if facility staff broaden their contacts with people outside their household, then staff may acquire the virus and unknowingly bring it into the facility," said Patty Ducayet, the state's federally mandated long-term care ombudsman for more than a decade. "That's a risk of expanding our social networks before we have widespread testing and ample PPE supplies for all."

Jenkins said Dallas County was already "seeing a widespread outbreak in the general population."

"The main concern would be that the citizens would hear what the governor is saying and act on that and begin to do things like go to large group meetings, go to theaters, go hang out in restaurants and then spread a lot more disease and make this worse," he added. "But at this point it's up to each person in Texas to make good choices."
One of the worst known outbreaks in Texas stemmed from an assisted living facility in College Station, about 95 miles northwest of Houston. But there are approximately 1,200 nursing homes and 2,000 assisted living facilities in the state, and last week the Texas Health and Human Services Commission reported 242 resident deaths in nursing homes and 61 fatalities in assisted living facilities, the Tribune reported.
Ducayet said the percentage of fatal cases impacting long-term care residents "shows just how vulnerable they are." In some cases, she explained, a staff member working at more than one facility who may not have known they were exposed could have contaminated more than one facility.

Given the well-documented risks posed to the elderly by COVID-19, the lack of transparency about outbreaks there was glaring.

"Any place that's a congregate living setting is going to be highly susceptible to increased transmission," Cervantes said. "For any respiratory disease, we know that's the case, be it influenza or measlesanything transmitted via respiratory droplet."
Meanwhile, though Texas is behind a handful of other statesincluding Louisiana and Oklahomafor the highest incarceration rate in the country, it has 104 prisons, which house up to 150,000 inmates. Separately, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice also oversees 17 state jails in 16 counties, and a researcher at the agency the Texas Commission on Jail Standards told The Daily Beast on Monday that the agency regulates 239 county jails.
Unauthorized access.

As the pandemic spread through the state, the Beto Unit in Palestine, Texas, quickly became the biggest hotspot among Texas prisons, topping 200 cases last week, according to the Marshall Project. The Harris County Jail, on the other hand, was responsible for at least 132 of the cases in that county.
"In prisons and jails, the spread is like wildfire," said Michele Deitch, a senior lecturer and prison conditions expert at the University of Texas law school. "And almost certainly the number of prisoners with the virus is much greater than they realize because they aren't doing extensive testing."

"What's happening inside these prisons isn't staying inside these prisons," Deitch told The Daily Beast. "Staff are going back home to their communities each night."
In addition to congregate spaces like prisons and nursing homes, meatpacking plants have been the root of several clusters in the state.

Last week, the CDC announced that processing facilities in 19 states had reported 4,913 cases and 20 deaths among meat industry workers, signaling the need for greater protections. This week, infection rates per 1,000 people in Texas counties with hot spots tied to meatpacking plants continued to climb, according to the Tribune. For example, Moore Countythe home of the JBS Beef meatpacking planthas the highest reported infection rate in the state at 18.30 cases per 1,000.
The plantin a town called Cactusis operated by about 3,000 workers, most of them immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala or refugees from elsewhere, according to the Tribune.

Amarillo Mayor Ginger Nelson said over the weekend that a team of federal officials would help "attack" those clusters. The Department of State Health Services has said it was looking into outbreaks at JBS Beef and Tyson Foods in Shelby County, near the border with Louisiana.
In Harris County, coronavirus cases were two to three times more prevalent in some of Houston's poorest areas codes compared with the county overall, according to a Houston Chronicle analysis. The virus tended to cluster in predominantly black neighborhoods, the paper reported, in findings that mirrored a Georgia-specific analysis by the CDC last week, and larger trends showing COVID-19 hitting communities of color especially hard. Experts noted the high risk associated in some of these areas, where many residents have underlying medical conditions.
"Our concerns are obviously, now that we're reopening, that we don't want to go backward and see an uptick in cases and hospitalizations," said Shah, the Harris County health official. Over the weekend, he said, he observed more people on blankets, out fishing, and playing frisbee without distance or facial coverings.
There will be a lag, he explained, between when those who venture out and possibly contract the virus develop symptoms or seek tests. That's what health experts like him are bracing for.

"As people continue to come back into their lives, we want to make sure they remember this is not normal life as we knew it prior to COVID-19," said Shah. "We just have to keep reminding people that we have to protect ourselves and each other. Otherwise we're going to be in the same boat as we were before."
Why don't you pull out the binary favorite 200M death prediction? Remember how you posted articles from the same sources in mid-March about how Texas was mis-managing the virus? Yet, we have yet to reach the levels of Michigan, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, Florida ... mostly big lockdown stats. I genuinely try not to make it personal, but I have serious doubts anyone who has a PhD in hard sciences could so easily discount data for emotion ... or it just proves how many scientist are dollar- and agenda-chasing buffoons that turn global cooling scares into global warming scares in < 20 years.
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Same stupid logic CNN used with Georgia.
Quote:


On Sunday, Dallas County reported its highest new COVID-19 case total to date, with 234 additional positive resultsjust two days after Gov. Greg Abbott's statewide shelter-in-place order expired. As of 10 a.m. Monday, the county had reported 237 additional positive cases overnightanother recordbringing the total case count there to 4,370, including 114 deaths.
Case reporting is weeks behind current day because of incubation times. Opinion framed as fear without support.
TexasScientist
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Flaming Moderate said:

TexasScientist said:

Texans Brace for a COVID-19 'Explosion' Just Days After Reopening
LONE STAR PROBLEM

Prisons. Meat plants. Nursing homes. And nowhere near enough testing to know how bad the coronavirus problem is. Olivia Messer, reporter

The ascent of the novel coronavirus in the Lone Star State has been a gradual one. But as the state reopens its economy, infection counts are surgingand experts warn of a potential flood in the months ahead.
On March 4, the state health department reported Texas' first positive case of COVID-19. One month later, on April 4, there were 6,110 cases. As of MondayMay 4approximately 32,332 Texans had tested positive for the coronavirus, with an overnight uptick of 784. About 7,035 of those cases were confirmed in just one week, according to data analyzed by The Texas Tribune. And that's despite having one of the lowest testing rates in the nation.

Two counties lead the state's cases. Harris, which includes the city of Houston and is the third largest county in the United States, had 6,967 confirmed cases on Monday and more than 130 deaths, according to Dr. Umair A. Shah, executive director for the county's public health department. There were 129 new cases overnight, Shah told The Daily Beast.

On Sunday, Dallas County reported its highest new COVID-19 case total to date, with 234 additional positive resultsjust two days after Gov. Greg Abbott's statewide shelter-in-place order expired. As of 10 a.m. Monday, the county had reported 237 additional positive cases overnightanother recordbringing the total case count there to 4,370, including 114 deaths.

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins has repeatedly cautioned residents to continue social distancing despite Abbott's decision to reopen businesses on Friday. Abbott was just one in a laundry list of mostly Republican governors who recently launched aggressive efforts to reignite pandemic-ravaged economieseven as epidemiologists warn of possibly grave consequences.

But amid evidence of nationwide quarantine fatigue and revised models showing a surge in deaths expected in connection with COVID-19, public health experts in the state were keeping their eyes trained squarely on long-term care facilities and prisons. That's where they expected one of the most populous states in America to see its coronavirus future come into sharper, and more disturbing, focus.
"It's going to be scary going into the fall," said Diana Cervantes, director of the epidemiology program at the University of North Texas Health Science Center School of Public Health. "We're going to see a huge explosion of cases."

Neither Governor Abbott's office nor the Texas Department of State Health Services responded to questions from The Daily Beast on Monday. And to be clear, multiple experts warned that people leaving the house more often since the reopening may very well become infected, but that it would take days before symptoms present themselves, and longer to get test resultsif they can even acquire a test. In other words, any new surge tied to the reopening would not be clear for at least a week.


"For the state, the overall trend [of infections] is that the peaks are getting a little higher and a little wider," said Cervantes. "I think people get fatigued on doing these types of foundational public health measures to prevent transmission, like social-distancing and wearing masks."

As Dallas County data appeared to confirm on Monday, more than 40 percent of the state's coronavirus deaths are linked to long-term care facilities, which an analysis by the Tribune and ProPublica found last week. Jenkins, the county judge, told The Daily Beast that he hoped his community followed "the science," meaning the recommendations from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), public health officials, and major hospital chains in the area.

"They say that it's too early to open, that we haven't seen that two-week decline," Jenkins said, referring to federal guidance calling for a 14-day drop in new cases. "In fact, in Texas we haven't seen any decline. And we rank dead last in testing. So they're telling us to brace for worse infections because we didn't follow the science."

State health authorities have so far refused to name the nursing facilities with known casesor disclose the total number of infections across all such facilities in Texas.
Experts were sounding the alarm.

"What I am concerned about with reopening, is that, if facility staff broaden their contacts with people outside their household, then staff may acquire the virus and unknowingly bring it into the facility," said Patty Ducayet, the state's federally mandated long-term care ombudsman for more than a decade. "That's a risk of expanding our social networks before we have widespread testing and ample PPE supplies for all."

Jenkins said Dallas County was already "seeing a widespread outbreak in the general population."

"The main concern would be that the citizens would hear what the governor is saying and act on that and begin to do things like go to large group meetings, go to theaters, go hang out in restaurants and then spread a lot more disease and make this worse," he added. "But at this point it's up to each person in Texas to make good choices."
One of the worst known outbreaks in Texas stemmed from an assisted living facility in College Station, about 95 miles northwest of Houston. But there are approximately 1,200 nursing homes and 2,000 assisted living facilities in the state, and last week the Texas Health and Human Services Commission reported 242 resident deaths in nursing homes and 61 fatalities in assisted living facilities, the Tribune reported.
Ducayet said the percentage of fatal cases impacting long-term care residents "shows just how vulnerable they are." In some cases, she explained, a staff member working at more than one facility who may not have known they were exposed could have contaminated more than one facility.

Given the well-documented risks posed to the elderly by COVID-19, the lack of transparency about outbreaks there was glaring.

"Any place that's a congregate living setting is going to be highly susceptible to increased transmission," Cervantes said. "For any respiratory disease, we know that's the case, be it influenza or measlesanything transmitted via respiratory droplet."
Meanwhile, though Texas is behind a handful of other statesincluding Louisiana and Oklahomafor the highest incarceration rate in the country, it has 104 prisons, which house up to 150,000 inmates. Separately, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice also oversees 17 state jails in 16 counties, and a researcher at the agency the Texas Commission on Jail Standards told The Daily Beast on Monday that the agency regulates 239 county jails.
Unauthorized access.

As the pandemic spread through the state, the Beto Unit in Palestine, Texas, quickly became the biggest hotspot among Texas prisons, topping 200 cases last week, according to the Marshall Project. The Harris County Jail, on the other hand, was responsible for at least 132 of the cases in that county.
"In prisons and jails, the spread is like wildfire," said Michele Deitch, a senior lecturer and prison conditions expert at the University of Texas law school. "And almost certainly the number of prisoners with the virus is much greater than they realize because they aren't doing extensive testing."

"What's happening inside these prisons isn't staying inside these prisons," Deitch told The Daily Beast. "Staff are going back home to their communities each night."
In addition to congregate spaces like prisons and nursing homes, meatpacking plants have been the root of several clusters in the state.

Last week, the CDC announced that processing facilities in 19 states had reported 4,913 cases and 20 deaths among meat industry workers, signaling the need for greater protections. This week, infection rates per 1,000 people in Texas counties with hot spots tied to meatpacking plants continued to climb, according to the Tribune. For example, Moore Countythe home of the JBS Beef meatpacking planthas the highest reported infection rate in the state at 18.30 cases per 1,000.
The plantin a town called Cactusis operated by about 3,000 workers, most of them immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala or refugees from elsewhere, according to the Tribune.

Amarillo Mayor Ginger Nelson said over the weekend that a team of federal officials would help "attack" those clusters. The Department of State Health Services has said it was looking into outbreaks at JBS Beef and Tyson Foods in Shelby County, near the border with Louisiana.
In Harris County, coronavirus cases were two to three times more prevalent in some of Houston's poorest areas codes compared with the county overall, according to a Houston Chronicle analysis. The virus tended to cluster in predominantly black neighborhoods, the paper reported, in findings that mirrored a Georgia-specific analysis by the CDC last week, and larger trends showing COVID-19 hitting communities of color especially hard. Experts noted the high risk associated in some of these areas, where many residents have underlying medical conditions.
"Our concerns are obviously, now that we're reopening, that we don't want to go backward and see an uptick in cases and hospitalizations," said Shah, the Harris County health official. Over the weekend, he said, he observed more people on blankets, out fishing, and playing frisbee without distance or facial coverings.
There will be a lag, he explained, between when those who venture out and possibly contract the virus develop symptoms or seek tests. That's what health experts like him are bracing for.

"As people continue to come back into their lives, we want to make sure they remember this is not normal life as we knew it prior to COVID-19," said Shah. "We just have to keep reminding people that we have to protect ourselves and each other. Otherwise we're going to be in the same boat as we were before."
Why don't you pull out the binary favorite 200M death prediction? Remember how you posted articles from the same sources in mid-March about how Texas was mis-managing the virus? Yet, we have yet to reach the levels of Michigan, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, Florida ... mostly big lockdown stats. I genuinely try not to make it personal, but I have serious doubts anyone who has a PhD in hard sciences could so easily discount data for emotion ... or it just proves how many scientist are dollar- and agenda-chasing buffoons that turn global cooling scares into global warming scares in < 20 years.
We will know in a couple of months, won't we.
Flaming Moderate
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TexasScientist said:

Flaming Moderate said:

TexasScientist said:

Texans Brace for a COVID-19 'Explosion' Just Days After Reopening
LONE STAR PROBLEM

Prisons. Meat plants. Nursing homes. And nowhere near enough testing to know how bad the coronavirus problem is. Olivia Messer, reporter

The ascent of the novel coronavirus in the Lone Star State has been a gradual one. But as the state reopens its economy, infection counts are surgingand experts warn of a potential flood in the months ahead.
On March 4, the state health department reported Texas' first positive case of COVID-19. One month later, on April 4, there were 6,110 cases. As of MondayMay 4approximately 32,332 Texans had tested positive for the coronavirus, with an overnight uptick of 784. About 7,035 of those cases were confirmed in just one week, according to data analyzed by The Texas Tribune. And that's despite having one of the lowest testing rates in the nation.

Two counties lead the state's cases. Harris, which includes the city of Houston and is the third largest county in the United States, had 6,967 confirmed cases on Monday and more than 130 deaths, according to Dr. Umair A. Shah, executive director for the county's public health department. There were 129 new cases overnight, Shah told The Daily Beast.

On Sunday, Dallas County reported its highest new COVID-19 case total to date, with 234 additional positive resultsjust two days after Gov. Greg Abbott's statewide shelter-in-place order expired. As of 10 a.m. Monday, the county had reported 237 additional positive cases overnightanother recordbringing the total case count there to 4,370, including 114 deaths.

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins has repeatedly cautioned residents to continue social distancing despite Abbott's decision to reopen businesses on Friday. Abbott was just one in a laundry list of mostly Republican governors who recently launched aggressive efforts to reignite pandemic-ravaged economieseven as epidemiologists warn of possibly grave consequences.

But amid evidence of nationwide quarantine fatigue and revised models showing a surge in deaths expected in connection with COVID-19, public health experts in the state were keeping their eyes trained squarely on long-term care facilities and prisons. That's where they expected one of the most populous states in America to see its coronavirus future come into sharper, and more disturbing, focus.
"It's going to be scary going into the fall," said Diana Cervantes, director of the epidemiology program at the University of North Texas Health Science Center School of Public Health. "We're going to see a huge explosion of cases."

Neither Governor Abbott's office nor the Texas Department of State Health Services responded to questions from The Daily Beast on Monday. And to be clear, multiple experts warned that people leaving the house more often since the reopening may very well become infected, but that it would take days before symptoms present themselves, and longer to get test resultsif they can even acquire a test. In other words, any new surge tied to the reopening would not be clear for at least a week.


"For the state, the overall trend [of infections] is that the peaks are getting a little higher and a little wider," said Cervantes. "I think people get fatigued on doing these types of foundational public health measures to prevent transmission, like social-distancing and wearing masks."

As Dallas County data appeared to confirm on Monday, more than 40 percent of the state's coronavirus deaths are linked to long-term care facilities, which an analysis by the Tribune and ProPublica found last week. Jenkins, the county judge, told The Daily Beast that he hoped his community followed "the science," meaning the recommendations from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), public health officials, and major hospital chains in the area.

"They say that it's too early to open, that we haven't seen that two-week decline," Jenkins said, referring to federal guidance calling for a 14-day drop in new cases. "In fact, in Texas we haven't seen any decline. And we rank dead last in testing. So they're telling us to brace for worse infections because we didn't follow the science."

State health authorities have so far refused to name the nursing facilities with known casesor disclose the total number of infections across all such facilities in Texas.
Experts were sounding the alarm.

"What I am concerned about with reopening, is that, if facility staff broaden their contacts with people outside their household, then staff may acquire the virus and unknowingly bring it into the facility," said Patty Ducayet, the state's federally mandated long-term care ombudsman for more than a decade. "That's a risk of expanding our social networks before we have widespread testing and ample PPE supplies for all."

Jenkins said Dallas County was already "seeing a widespread outbreak in the general population."

"The main concern would be that the citizens would hear what the governor is saying and act on that and begin to do things like go to large group meetings, go to theaters, go hang out in restaurants and then spread a lot more disease and make this worse," he added. "But at this point it's up to each person in Texas to make good choices."
One of the worst known outbreaks in Texas stemmed from an assisted living facility in College Station, about 95 miles northwest of Houston. But there are approximately 1,200 nursing homes and 2,000 assisted living facilities in the state, and last week the Texas Health and Human Services Commission reported 242 resident deaths in nursing homes and 61 fatalities in assisted living facilities, the Tribune reported.
Ducayet said the percentage of fatal cases impacting long-term care residents "shows just how vulnerable they are." In some cases, she explained, a staff member working at more than one facility who may not have known they were exposed could have contaminated more than one facility.

Given the well-documented risks posed to the elderly by COVID-19, the lack of transparency about outbreaks there was glaring.

"Any place that's a congregate living setting is going to be highly susceptible to increased transmission," Cervantes said. "For any respiratory disease, we know that's the case, be it influenza or measlesanything transmitted via respiratory droplet."
Meanwhile, though Texas is behind a handful of other statesincluding Louisiana and Oklahomafor the highest incarceration rate in the country, it has 104 prisons, which house up to 150,000 inmates. Separately, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice also oversees 17 state jails in 16 counties, and a researcher at the agency the Texas Commission on Jail Standards told The Daily Beast on Monday that the agency regulates 239 county jails.
Unauthorized access.

As the pandemic spread through the state, the Beto Unit in Palestine, Texas, quickly became the biggest hotspot among Texas prisons, topping 200 cases last week, according to the Marshall Project. The Harris County Jail, on the other hand, was responsible for at least 132 of the cases in that county.
"In prisons and jails, the spread is like wildfire," said Michele Deitch, a senior lecturer and prison conditions expert at the University of Texas law school. "And almost certainly the number of prisoners with the virus is much greater than they realize because they aren't doing extensive testing."

"What's happening inside these prisons isn't staying inside these prisons," Deitch told The Daily Beast. "Staff are going back home to their communities each night."
In addition to congregate spaces like prisons and nursing homes, meatpacking plants have been the root of several clusters in the state.

Last week, the CDC announced that processing facilities in 19 states had reported 4,913 cases and 20 deaths among meat industry workers, signaling the need for greater protections. This week, infection rates per 1,000 people in Texas counties with hot spots tied to meatpacking plants continued to climb, according to the Tribune. For example, Moore Countythe home of the JBS Beef meatpacking planthas the highest reported infection rate in the state at 18.30 cases per 1,000.
The plantin a town called Cactusis operated by about 3,000 workers, most of them immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala or refugees from elsewhere, according to the Tribune.

Amarillo Mayor Ginger Nelson said over the weekend that a team of federal officials would help "attack" those clusters. The Department of State Health Services has said it was looking into outbreaks at JBS Beef and Tyson Foods in Shelby County, near the border with Louisiana.
In Harris County, coronavirus cases were two to three times more prevalent in some of Houston's poorest areas codes compared with the county overall, according to a Houston Chronicle analysis. The virus tended to cluster in predominantly black neighborhoods, the paper reported, in findings that mirrored a Georgia-specific analysis by the CDC last week, and larger trends showing COVID-19 hitting communities of color especially hard. Experts noted the high risk associated in some of these areas, where many residents have underlying medical conditions.
"Our concerns are obviously, now that we're reopening, that we don't want to go backward and see an uptick in cases and hospitalizations," said Shah, the Harris County health official. Over the weekend, he said, he observed more people on blankets, out fishing, and playing frisbee without distance or facial coverings.
There will be a lag, he explained, between when those who venture out and possibly contract the virus develop symptoms or seek tests. That's what health experts like him are bracing for.

"As people continue to come back into their lives, we want to make sure they remember this is not normal life as we knew it prior to COVID-19," said Shah. "We just have to keep reminding people that we have to protect ourselves and each other. Otherwise we're going to be in the same boat as we were before."
Why don't you pull out the binary favorite 200M death prediction? Remember how you posted articles from the same sources in mid-March about how Texas was mis-managing the virus? Yet, we have yet to reach the levels of Michigan, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, Florida ... mostly big lockdown stats. I genuinely try not to make it personal, but I have serious doubts anyone who has a PhD in hard sciences could so easily discount data for emotion ... or it just proves how many scientist are dollar- and agenda-chasing buffoons that turn global cooling scares into global warming scares in < 20 years.
We will know in a couple of months, won't we.


Tell us more about 200M deaths ... or your grievance study degrees.
blackie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TexasScientist said:

Flaming Moderate said:

TexasScientist said:

Texans Brace for a COVID-19 'Explosion' Just Days After Reopening
LONE STAR PROBLEM

Prisons. Meat plants. Nursing homes. And nowhere near enough testing to know how bad the coronavirus problem is. Olivia Messer, reporter

The ascent of the novel coronavirus in the Lone Star State has been a gradual one. But as the state reopens its economy, infection counts are surgingand experts warn of a potential flood in the months ahead.
On March 4, the state health department reported Texas' first positive case of COVID-19. One month later, on April 4, there were 6,110 cases. As of MondayMay 4approximately 32,332 Texans had tested positive for the coronavirus, with an overnight uptick of 784. About 7,035 of those cases were confirmed in just one week, according to data analyzed by The Texas Tribune. And that's despite having one of the lowest testing rates in the nation.

Two counties lead the state's cases. Harris, which includes the city of Houston and is the third largest county in the United States, had 6,967 confirmed cases on Monday and more than 130 deaths, according to Dr. Umair A. Shah, executive director for the county's public health department. There were 129 new cases overnight, Shah told The Daily Beast.

On Sunday, Dallas County reported its highest new COVID-19 case total to date, with 234 additional positive resultsjust two days after Gov. Greg Abbott's statewide shelter-in-place order expired. As of 10 a.m. Monday, the county had reported 237 additional positive cases overnightanother recordbringing the total case count there to 4,370, including 114 deaths.

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins has repeatedly cautioned residents to continue social distancing despite Abbott's decision to reopen businesses on Friday. Abbott was just one in a laundry list of mostly Republican governors who recently launched aggressive efforts to reignite pandemic-ravaged economieseven as epidemiologists warn of possibly grave consequences.

But amid evidence of nationwide quarantine fatigue and revised models showing a surge in deaths expected in connection with COVID-19, public health experts in the state were keeping their eyes trained squarely on long-term care facilities and prisons. That's where they expected one of the most populous states in America to see its coronavirus future come into sharper, and more disturbing, focus.
"It's going to be scary going into the fall," said Diana Cervantes, director of the epidemiology program at the University of North Texas Health Science Center School of Public Health. "We're going to see a huge explosion of cases."

Neither Governor Abbott's office nor the Texas Department of State Health Services responded to questions from The Daily Beast on Monday. And to be clear, multiple experts warned that people leaving the house more often since the reopening may very well become infected, but that it would take days before symptoms present themselves, and longer to get test resultsif they can even acquire a test. In other words, any new surge tied to the reopening would not be clear for at least a week.


"For the state, the overall trend [of infections] is that the peaks are getting a little higher and a little wider," said Cervantes. "I think people get fatigued on doing these types of foundational public health measures to prevent transmission, like social-distancing and wearing masks."

As Dallas County data appeared to confirm on Monday, more than 40 percent of the state's coronavirus deaths are linked to long-term care facilities, which an analysis by the Tribune and ProPublica found last week. Jenkins, the county judge, told The Daily Beast that he hoped his community followed "the science," meaning the recommendations from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), public health officials, and major hospital chains in the area.

"They say that it's too early to open, that we haven't seen that two-week decline," Jenkins said, referring to federal guidance calling for a 14-day drop in new cases. "In fact, in Texas we haven't seen any decline. And we rank dead last in testing. So they're telling us to brace for worse infections because we didn't follow the science."

State health authorities have so far refused to name the nursing facilities with known casesor disclose the total number of infections across all such facilities in Texas.
Experts were sounding the alarm.

"What I am concerned about with reopening, is that, if facility staff broaden their contacts with people outside their household, then staff may acquire the virus and unknowingly bring it into the facility," said Patty Ducayet, the state's federally mandated long-term care ombudsman for more than a decade. "That's a risk of expanding our social networks before we have widespread testing and ample PPE supplies for all."

Jenkins said Dallas County was already "seeing a widespread outbreak in the general population."

"The main concern would be that the citizens would hear what the governor is saying and act on that and begin to do things like go to large group meetings, go to theaters, go hang out in restaurants and then spread a lot more disease and make this worse," he added. "But at this point it's up to each person in Texas to make good choices."
One of the worst known outbreaks in Texas stemmed from an assisted living facility in College Station, about 95 miles northwest of Houston. But there are approximately 1,200 nursing homes and 2,000 assisted living facilities in the state, and last week the Texas Health and Human Services Commission reported 242 resident deaths in nursing homes and 61 fatalities in assisted living facilities, the Tribune reported.
Ducayet said the percentage of fatal cases impacting long-term care residents "shows just how vulnerable they are." In some cases, she explained, a staff member working at more than one facility who may not have known they were exposed could have contaminated more than one facility.

Given the well-documented risks posed to the elderly by COVID-19, the lack of transparency about outbreaks there was glaring.

"Any place that's a congregate living setting is going to be highly susceptible to increased transmission," Cervantes said. "For any respiratory disease, we know that's the case, be it influenza or measlesanything transmitted via respiratory droplet."
Meanwhile, though Texas is behind a handful of other statesincluding Louisiana and Oklahomafor the highest incarceration rate in the country, it has 104 prisons, which house up to 150,000 inmates. Separately, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice also oversees 17 state jails in 16 counties, and a researcher at the agency the Texas Commission on Jail Standards told The Daily Beast on Monday that the agency regulates 239 county jails.
Unauthorized access.

As the pandemic spread through the state, the Beto Unit in Palestine, Texas, quickly became the biggest hotspot among Texas prisons, topping 200 cases last week, according to the Marshall Project. The Harris County Jail, on the other hand, was responsible for at least 132 of the cases in that county.
"In prisons and jails, the spread is like wildfire," said Michele Deitch, a senior lecturer and prison conditions expert at the University of Texas law school. "And almost certainly the number of prisoners with the virus is much greater than they realize because they aren't doing extensive testing."

"What's happening inside these prisons isn't staying inside these prisons," Deitch told The Daily Beast. "Staff are going back home to their communities each night."
In addition to congregate spaces like prisons and nursing homes, meatpacking plants have been the root of several clusters in the state.

Last week, the CDC announced that processing facilities in 19 states had reported 4,913 cases and 20 deaths among meat industry workers, signaling the need for greater protections. This week, infection rates per 1,000 people in Texas counties with hot spots tied to meatpacking plants continued to climb, according to the Tribune. For example, Moore Countythe home of the JBS Beef meatpacking planthas the highest reported infection rate in the state at 18.30 cases per 1,000.
The plantin a town called Cactusis operated by about 3,000 workers, most of them immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala or refugees from elsewhere, according to the Tribune.

Amarillo Mayor Ginger Nelson said over the weekend that a team of federal officials would help "attack" those clusters. The Department of State Health Services has said it was looking into outbreaks at JBS Beef and Tyson Foods in Shelby County, near the border with Louisiana.
In Harris County, coronavirus cases were two to three times more prevalent in some of Houston's poorest areas codes compared with the county overall, according to a Houston Chronicle analysis. The virus tended to cluster in predominantly black neighborhoods, the paper reported, in findings that mirrored a Georgia-specific analysis by the CDC last week, and larger trends showing COVID-19 hitting communities of color especially hard. Experts noted the high risk associated in some of these areas, where many residents have underlying medical conditions.
"Our concerns are obviously, now that we're reopening, that we don't want to go backward and see an uptick in cases and hospitalizations," said Shah, the Harris County health official. Over the weekend, he said, he observed more people on blankets, out fishing, and playing frisbee without distance or facial coverings.
There will be a lag, he explained, between when those who venture out and possibly contract the virus develop symptoms or seek tests. That's what health experts like him are bracing for.

"As people continue to come back into their lives, we want to make sure they remember this is not normal life as we knew it prior to COVID-19," said Shah. "We just have to keep reminding people that we have to protect ourselves and each other. Otherwise we're going to be in the same boat as we were before."
Why don't you pull out the binary favorite 200M death prediction? Remember how you posted articles from the same sources in mid-March about how Texas was mis-managing the virus? Yet, we have yet to reach the levels of Michigan, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, Florida ... mostly big lockdown stats. I genuinely try not to make it personal, but I have serious doubts anyone who has a PhD in hard sciences could so easily discount data for emotion ... or it just proves how many scientist are dollar- and agenda-chasing buffoons that turn global cooling scares into global warming scares in < 20 years.
We will know in a couple of months, won't we.
.....and how the citizens of Texas handled or mis-handled the reopening.

Based on what I see from pictures of people being out, I am afraid it will be the latter. And now we are hearing reports of heart related problems in kids. The biggest "hoax" ( a word that is greatly favored by many here) is that the young have nothing to be concerned about. I am well past the age of being considered young, but if I was I don't know what my attitude would be about trying to go back to "normal". But if I did, I sure would be trying to stay away from crowds and certainly wouldn't want an unmasked waiter to be putting down my food on my table after having breathed all over it.

I'm sorry, but I have been around the public for too long. The American public is going to screw up this re-opening by acting like nothing is different than it was four months ago.

We have only known about this virus for less than a year. We don't know for sure how it is transmitted, why it affects one healthy person mildly and another sends them to death's door and beyond, if it is seasonal or cyclic, and if it mutates to something better or worse. We have nothing for certain that has proven to be a consistent and effective treatment for the majority of people. We can't declare the final story because we don't know the final story and won't for many more months, if then.
Osodecentx
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TexasScientist said:

We will know in a couple of months, won't we.
Look, there will be more cases as we reopen. The more people are moving around, the more cases there will be.

This isn't bad. We are developing herd immunity. If we postpone reopening for 6 months, we will have a surge of cases in 6 months.

Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Flaming Moderate said:

TexasScientist said:

Flaming Moderate said:

TexasScientist said:

Texans Brace for a COVID-19 'Explosion' Just Days After Reopening
LONE STAR PROBLEM

Prisons. Meat plants. Nursing homes. And nowhere near enough testing to know how bad the coronavirus problem is. Olivia Messer, reporter

The ascent of the novel coronavirus in the Lone Star State has been a gradual one. But as the state reopens its economy, infection counts are surgingand experts warn of a potential flood in the months ahead.
On March 4, the state health department reported Texas' first positive case of COVID-19. One month later, on April 4, there were 6,110 cases. As of MondayMay 4approximately 32,332 Texans had tested positive for the coronavirus, with an overnight uptick of 784. About 7,035 of those cases were confirmed in just one week, according to data analyzed by The Texas Tribune. And that's despite having one of the lowest testing rates in the nation.

Two counties lead the state's cases. Harris, which includes the city of Houston and is the third largest county in the United States, had 6,967 confirmed cases on Monday and more than 130 deaths, according to Dr. Umair A. Shah, executive director for the county's public health department. There were 129 new cases overnight, Shah told The Daily Beast.

On Sunday, Dallas County reported its highest new COVID-19 case total to date, with 234 additional positive resultsjust two days after Gov. Greg Abbott's statewide shelter-in-place order expired. As of 10 a.m. Monday, the county had reported 237 additional positive cases overnightanother recordbringing the total case count there to 4,370, including 114 deaths.

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins has repeatedly cautioned residents to continue social distancing despite Abbott's decision to reopen businesses on Friday. Abbott was just one in a laundry list of mostly Republican governors who recently launched aggressive efforts to reignite pandemic-ravaged economieseven as epidemiologists warn of possibly grave consequences.

But amid evidence of nationwide quarantine fatigue and revised models showing a surge in deaths expected in connection with COVID-19, public health experts in the state were keeping their eyes trained squarely on long-term care facilities and prisons. That's where they expected one of the most populous states in America to see its coronavirus future come into sharper, and more disturbing, focus.
"It's going to be scary going into the fall," said Diana Cervantes, director of the epidemiology program at the University of North Texas Health Science Center School of Public Health. "We're going to see a huge explosion of cases."

Neither Governor Abbott's office nor the Texas Department of State Health Services responded to questions from The Daily Beast on Monday. And to be clear, multiple experts warned that people leaving the house more often since the reopening may very well become infected, but that it would take days before symptoms present themselves, and longer to get test resultsif they can even acquire a test. In other words, any new surge tied to the reopening would not be clear for at least a week.


"For the state, the overall trend [of infections] is that the peaks are getting a little higher and a little wider," said Cervantes. "I think people get fatigued on doing these types of foundational public health measures to prevent transmission, like social-distancing and wearing masks."

As Dallas County data appeared to confirm on Monday, more than 40 percent of the state's coronavirus deaths are linked to long-term care facilities, which an analysis by the Tribune and ProPublica found last week. Jenkins, the county judge, told The Daily Beast that he hoped his community followed "the science," meaning the recommendations from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), public health officials, and major hospital chains in the area.

"They say that it's too early to open, that we haven't seen that two-week decline," Jenkins said, referring to federal guidance calling for a 14-day drop in new cases. "In fact, in Texas we haven't seen any decline. And we rank dead last in testing. So they're telling us to brace for worse infections because we didn't follow the science."

State health authorities have so far refused to name the nursing facilities with known casesor disclose the total number of infections across all such facilities in Texas.
Experts were sounding the alarm.

"What I am concerned about with reopening, is that, if facility staff broaden their contacts with people outside their household, then staff may acquire the virus and unknowingly bring it into the facility," said Patty Ducayet, the state's federally mandated long-term care ombudsman for more than a decade. "That's a risk of expanding our social networks before we have widespread testing and ample PPE supplies for all."

Jenkins said Dallas County was already "seeing a widespread outbreak in the general population."

"The main concern would be that the citizens would hear what the governor is saying and act on that and begin to do things like go to large group meetings, go to theaters, go hang out in restaurants and then spread a lot more disease and make this worse," he added. "But at this point it's up to each person in Texas to make good choices."
One of the worst known outbreaks in Texas stemmed from an assisted living facility in College Station, about 95 miles northwest of Houston. But there are approximately 1,200 nursing homes and 2,000 assisted living facilities in the state, and last week the Texas Health and Human Services Commission reported 242 resident deaths in nursing homes and 61 fatalities in assisted living facilities, the Tribune reported.
Ducayet said the percentage of fatal cases impacting long-term care residents "shows just how vulnerable they are." In some cases, she explained, a staff member working at more than one facility who may not have known they were exposed could have contaminated more than one facility.

Given the well-documented risks posed to the elderly by COVID-19, the lack of transparency about outbreaks there was glaring.

"Any place that's a congregate living setting is going to be highly susceptible to increased transmission," Cervantes said. "For any respiratory disease, we know that's the case, be it influenza or measlesanything transmitted via respiratory droplet."
Meanwhile, though Texas is behind a handful of other statesincluding Louisiana and Oklahomafor the highest incarceration rate in the country, it has 104 prisons, which house up to 150,000 inmates. Separately, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice also oversees 17 state jails in 16 counties, and a researcher at the agency the Texas Commission on Jail Standards told The Daily Beast on Monday that the agency regulates 239 county jails.
Unauthorized access.

As the pandemic spread through the state, the Beto Unit in Palestine, Texas, quickly became the biggest hotspot among Texas prisons, topping 200 cases last week, according to the Marshall Project. The Harris County Jail, on the other hand, was responsible for at least 132 of the cases in that county.
"In prisons and jails, the spread is like wildfire," said Michele Deitch, a senior lecturer and prison conditions expert at the University of Texas law school. "And almost certainly the number of prisoners with the virus is much greater than they realize because they aren't doing extensive testing."

"What's happening inside these prisons isn't staying inside these prisons," Deitch told The Daily Beast. "Staff are going back home to their communities each night."
In addition to congregate spaces like prisons and nursing homes, meatpacking plants have been the root of several clusters in the state.

Last week, the CDC announced that processing facilities in 19 states had reported 4,913 cases and 20 deaths among meat industry workers, signaling the need for greater protections. This week, infection rates per 1,000 people in Texas counties with hot spots tied to meatpacking plants continued to climb, according to the Tribune. For example, Moore Countythe home of the JBS Beef meatpacking planthas the highest reported infection rate in the state at 18.30 cases per 1,000.
The plantin a town called Cactusis operated by about 3,000 workers, most of them immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala or refugees from elsewhere, according to the Tribune.

Amarillo Mayor Ginger Nelson said over the weekend that a team of federal officials would help "attack" those clusters. The Department of State Health Services has said it was looking into outbreaks at JBS Beef and Tyson Foods in Shelby County, near the border with Louisiana.
In Harris County, coronavirus cases were two to three times more prevalent in some of Houston's poorest areas codes compared with the county overall, according to a Houston Chronicle analysis. The virus tended to cluster in predominantly black neighborhoods, the paper reported, in findings that mirrored a Georgia-specific analysis by the CDC last week, and larger trends showing COVID-19 hitting communities of color especially hard. Experts noted the high risk associated in some of these areas, where many residents have underlying medical conditions.
"Our concerns are obviously, now that we're reopening, that we don't want to go backward and see an uptick in cases and hospitalizations," said Shah, the Harris County health official. Over the weekend, he said, he observed more people on blankets, out fishing, and playing frisbee without distance or facial coverings.
There will be a lag, he explained, between when those who venture out and possibly contract the virus develop symptoms or seek tests. That's what health experts like him are bracing for.

"As people continue to come back into their lives, we want to make sure they remember this is not normal life as we knew it prior to COVID-19," said Shah. "We just have to keep reminding people that we have to protect ourselves and each other. Otherwise we're going to be in the same boat as we were before."
Why don't you pull out the binary favorite 200M death prediction? Remember how you posted articles from the same sources in mid-March about how Texas was mis-managing the virus? Yet, we have yet to reach the levels of Michigan, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, Florida ... mostly big lockdown stats. I genuinely try not to make it personal, but I have serious doubts anyone who has a PhD in hard sciences could so easily discount data for emotion ... or it just proves how many scientist are dollar- and agenda-chasing buffoons that turn global cooling scares into global warming scares in < 20 years.
We will know in a couple of months, won't we.


Tell us more about 200M deaths ... or your grievance study degrees.


Don't recall anyone on this message board predicting 200M deaths .

Do seem to recall you predicting less than 3000.
Flaming Moderate
How long do you want to ignore this user?
blackie said:

TexasScientist said:

Flaming Moderate said:

TexasScientist said:

Texans Brace for a COVID-19 'Explosion' Just Days After Reopening
LONE STAR PROBLEM

Prisons. Meat plants. Nursing homes. And nowhere near enough testing to know how bad the coronavirus problem is. Olivia Messer, reporter

The ascent of the novel coronavirus in the Lone Star State has been a gradual one. But as the state reopens its economy, infection counts are surgingand experts warn of a potential flood in the months ahead.
On March 4, the state health department reported Texas' first positive case of COVID-19. One month later, on April 4, there were 6,110 cases. As of MondayMay 4approximately 32,332 Texans had tested positive for the coronavirus, with an overnight uptick of 784. About 7,035 of those cases were confirmed in just one week, according to data analyzed by The Texas Tribune. And that's despite having one of the lowest testing rates in the nation.

Two counties lead the state's cases. Harris, which includes the city of Houston and is the third largest county in the United States, had 6,967 confirmed cases on Monday and more than 130 deaths, according to Dr. Umair A. Shah, executive director for the county's public health department. There were 129 new cases overnight, Shah told The Daily Beast.

On Sunday, Dallas County reported its highest new COVID-19 case total to date, with 234 additional positive resultsjust two days after Gov. Greg Abbott's statewide shelter-in-place order expired. As of 10 a.m. Monday, the county had reported 237 additional positive cases overnightanother recordbringing the total case count there to 4,370, including 114 deaths.

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins has repeatedly cautioned residents to continue social distancing despite Abbott's decision to reopen businesses on Friday. Abbott was just one in a laundry list of mostly Republican governors who recently launched aggressive efforts to reignite pandemic-ravaged economieseven as epidemiologists warn of possibly grave consequences.

But amid evidence of nationwide quarantine fatigue and revised models showing a surge in deaths expected in connection with COVID-19, public health experts in the state were keeping their eyes trained squarely on long-term care facilities and prisons. That's where they expected one of the most populous states in America to see its coronavirus future come into sharper, and more disturbing, focus.
"It's going to be scary going into the fall," said Diana Cervantes, director of the epidemiology program at the University of North Texas Health Science Center School of Public Health. "We're going to see a huge explosion of cases."

Neither Governor Abbott's office nor the Texas Department of State Health Services responded to questions from The Daily Beast on Monday. And to be clear, multiple experts warned that people leaving the house more often since the reopening may very well become infected, but that it would take days before symptoms present themselves, and longer to get test resultsif they can even acquire a test. In other words, any new surge tied to the reopening would not be clear for at least a week.


"For the state, the overall trend [of infections] is that the peaks are getting a little higher and a little wider," said Cervantes. "I think people get fatigued on doing these types of foundational public health measures to prevent transmission, like social-distancing and wearing masks."

As Dallas County data appeared to confirm on Monday, more than 40 percent of the state's coronavirus deaths are linked to long-term care facilities, which an analysis by the Tribune and ProPublica found last week. Jenkins, the county judge, told The Daily Beast that he hoped his community followed "the science," meaning the recommendations from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), public health officials, and major hospital chains in the area.

"They say that it's too early to open, that we haven't seen that two-week decline," Jenkins said, referring to federal guidance calling for a 14-day drop in new cases. "In fact, in Texas we haven't seen any decline. And we rank dead last in testing. So they're telling us to brace for worse infections because we didn't follow the science."

State health authorities have so far refused to name the nursing facilities with known casesor disclose the total number of infections across all such facilities in Texas.
Experts were sounding the alarm.

"What I am concerned about with reopening, is that, if facility staff broaden their contacts with people outside their household, then staff may acquire the virus and unknowingly bring it into the facility," said Patty Ducayet, the state's federally mandated long-term care ombudsman for more than a decade. "That's a risk of expanding our social networks before we have widespread testing and ample PPE supplies for all."

Jenkins said Dallas County was already "seeing a widespread outbreak in the general population."

"The main concern would be that the citizens would hear what the governor is saying and act on that and begin to do things like go to large group meetings, go to theaters, go hang out in restaurants and then spread a lot more disease and make this worse," he added. "But at this point it's up to each person in Texas to make good choices."
One of the worst known outbreaks in Texas stemmed from an assisted living facility in College Station, about 95 miles northwest of Houston. But there are approximately 1,200 nursing homes and 2,000 assisted living facilities in the state, and last week the Texas Health and Human Services Commission reported 242 resident deaths in nursing homes and 61 fatalities in assisted living facilities, the Tribune reported.
Ducayet said the percentage of fatal cases impacting long-term care residents "shows just how vulnerable they are." In some cases, she explained, a staff member working at more than one facility who may not have known they were exposed could have contaminated more than one facility.

Given the well-documented risks posed to the elderly by COVID-19, the lack of transparency about outbreaks there was glaring.

"Any place that's a congregate living setting is going to be highly susceptible to increased transmission," Cervantes said. "For any respiratory disease, we know that's the case, be it influenza or measlesanything transmitted via respiratory droplet."
Meanwhile, though Texas is behind a handful of other statesincluding Louisiana and Oklahomafor the highest incarceration rate in the country, it has 104 prisons, which house up to 150,000 inmates. Separately, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice also oversees 17 state jails in 16 counties, and a researcher at the agency the Texas Commission on Jail Standards told The Daily Beast on Monday that the agency regulates 239 county jails.
Unauthorized access.

As the pandemic spread through the state, the Beto Unit in Palestine, Texas, quickly became the biggest hotspot among Texas prisons, topping 200 cases last week, according to the Marshall Project. The Harris County Jail, on the other hand, was responsible for at least 132 of the cases in that county.
"In prisons and jails, the spread is like wildfire," said Michele Deitch, a senior lecturer and prison conditions expert at the University of Texas law school. "And almost certainly the number of prisoners with the virus is much greater than they realize because they aren't doing extensive testing."

"What's happening inside these prisons isn't staying inside these prisons," Deitch told The Daily Beast. "Staff are going back home to their communities each night."
In addition to congregate spaces like prisons and nursing homes, meatpacking plants have been the root of several clusters in the state.

Last week, the CDC announced that processing facilities in 19 states had reported 4,913 cases and 20 deaths among meat industry workers, signaling the need for greater protections. This week, infection rates per 1,000 people in Texas counties with hot spots tied to meatpacking plants continued to climb, according to the Tribune. For example, Moore Countythe home of the JBS Beef meatpacking planthas the highest reported infection rate in the state at 18.30 cases per 1,000.
The plantin a town called Cactusis operated by about 3,000 workers, most of them immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala or refugees from elsewhere, according to the Tribune.

Amarillo Mayor Ginger Nelson said over the weekend that a team of federal officials would help "attack" those clusters. The Department of State Health Services has said it was looking into outbreaks at JBS Beef and Tyson Foods in Shelby County, near the border with Louisiana.
In Harris County, coronavirus cases were two to three times more prevalent in some of Houston's poorest areas codes compared with the county overall, according to a Houston Chronicle analysis. The virus tended to cluster in predominantly black neighborhoods, the paper reported, in findings that mirrored a Georgia-specific analysis by the CDC last week, and larger trends showing COVID-19 hitting communities of color especially hard. Experts noted the high risk associated in some of these areas, where many residents have underlying medical conditions.
"Our concerns are obviously, now that we're reopening, that we don't want to go backward and see an uptick in cases and hospitalizations," said Shah, the Harris County health official. Over the weekend, he said, he observed more people on blankets, out fishing, and playing frisbee without distance or facial coverings.
There will be a lag, he explained, between when those who venture out and possibly contract the virus develop symptoms or seek tests. That's what health experts like him are bracing for.

"As people continue to come back into their lives, we want to make sure they remember this is not normal life as we knew it prior to COVID-19," said Shah. "We just have to keep reminding people that we have to protect ourselves and each other. Otherwise we're going to be in the same boat as we were before."
Why don't you pull out the binary favorite 200M death prediction? Remember how you posted articles from the same sources in mid-March about how Texas was mis-managing the virus? Yet, we have yet to reach the levels of Michigan, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, Florida ... mostly big lockdown stats. I genuinely try not to make it personal, but I have serious doubts anyone who has a PhD in hard sciences could so easily discount data for emotion ... or it just proves how many scientist are dollar- and agenda-chasing buffoons that turn global cooling scares into global warming scares in < 20 years.
We will know in a couple of months, won't we.
.....and how the citizens of Texas handled or mis-handled the reopening.

Based on what I see from pictures of people being out, I am afraid it will be the latter. And now we are hearing reports of heart related problems in kids. The biggest "hoax" ( a word that is greatly favored by many here) is that the young have nothing to be concerned about. I am well past the age of being considered young, but if I was I don't know what my attitude would be about trying to go back to "normal". But if I did, I sure would be trying to stay away from crowds and certainly wouldn't want an unmasked waiter to be putting down my food on my table after having breathed all over it.

I'm sorry, but I have been around the public for too long. The American public is going to screw up this re-opening by acting like nothing is different than it was four months ago.

We have only known about this virus for less than a year. We don't know for sure how it is transmitted, why it affects one healthy person mildly and another sends them to death's door and beyond, if it is seasonal or cyclic, and if it mutates to something better or worse. We have nothing for certain that has proven to be a consistent and effective treatment for the majority of people. We can't declare the final story because we don't know the final story and won't for many more months, if then.
Remember when the "experts" told us:
1. It could not be transmitted human-to-human
2. Masks are not helpful
3. This is not a big deal - go to Chinatown for dinner

Yeah ... I'm so much more suspicious about the 99%.
Flaming Moderate
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canada2017 said:

Flaming Moderate said:

TexasScientist said:

Flaming Moderate said:

TexasScientist said:

Texans Brace for a COVID-19 'Explosion' Just Days After Reopening
LONE STAR PROBLEM

Prisons. Meat plants. Nursing homes. And nowhere near enough testing to know how bad the coronavirus problem is. Olivia Messer, reporter

The ascent of the novel coronavirus in the Lone Star State has been a gradual one. But as the state reopens its economy, infection counts are surgingand experts warn of a potential flood in the months ahead.
On March 4, the state health department reported Texas' first positive case of COVID-19. One month later, on April 4, there were 6,110 cases. As of MondayMay 4approximately 32,332 Texans had tested positive for the coronavirus, with an overnight uptick of 784. About 7,035 of those cases were confirmed in just one week, according to data analyzed by The Texas Tribune. And that's despite having one of the lowest testing rates in the nation.

Two counties lead the state's cases. Harris, which includes the city of Houston and is the third largest county in the United States, had 6,967 confirmed cases on Monday and more than 130 deaths, according to Dr. Umair A. Shah, executive director for the county's public health department. There were 129 new cases overnight, Shah told The Daily Beast.

On Sunday, Dallas County reported its highest new COVID-19 case total to date, with 234 additional positive resultsjust two days after Gov. Greg Abbott's statewide shelter-in-place order expired. As of 10 a.m. Monday, the county had reported 237 additional positive cases overnightanother recordbringing the total case count there to 4,370, including 114 deaths.

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins has repeatedly cautioned residents to continue social distancing despite Abbott's decision to reopen businesses on Friday. Abbott was just one in a laundry list of mostly Republican governors who recently launched aggressive efforts to reignite pandemic-ravaged economieseven as epidemiologists warn of possibly grave consequences.

But amid evidence of nationwide quarantine fatigue and revised models showing a surge in deaths expected in connection with COVID-19, public health experts in the state were keeping their eyes trained squarely on long-term care facilities and prisons. That's where they expected one of the most populous states in America to see its coronavirus future come into sharper, and more disturbing, focus.
"It's going to be scary going into the fall," said Diana Cervantes, director of the epidemiology program at the University of North Texas Health Science Center School of Public Health. "We're going to see a huge explosion of cases."

Neither Governor Abbott's office nor the Texas Department of State Health Services responded to questions from The Daily Beast on Monday. And to be clear, multiple experts warned that people leaving the house more often since the reopening may very well become infected, but that it would take days before symptoms present themselves, and longer to get test resultsif they can even acquire a test. In other words, any new surge tied to the reopening would not be clear for at least a week.


"For the state, the overall trend [of infections] is that the peaks are getting a little higher and a little wider," said Cervantes. "I think people get fatigued on doing these types of foundational public health measures to prevent transmission, like social-distancing and wearing masks."

As Dallas County data appeared to confirm on Monday, more than 40 percent of the state's coronavirus deaths are linked to long-term care facilities, which an analysis by the Tribune and ProPublica found last week. Jenkins, the county judge, told The Daily Beast that he hoped his community followed "the science," meaning the recommendations from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), public health officials, and major hospital chains in the area.

"They say that it's too early to open, that we haven't seen that two-week decline," Jenkins said, referring to federal guidance calling for a 14-day drop in new cases. "In fact, in Texas we haven't seen any decline. And we rank dead last in testing. So they're telling us to brace for worse infections because we didn't follow the science."

State health authorities have so far refused to name the nursing facilities with known casesor disclose the total number of infections across all such facilities in Texas.
Experts were sounding the alarm.

"What I am concerned about with reopening, is that, if facility staff broaden their contacts with people outside their household, then staff may acquire the virus and unknowingly bring it into the facility," said Patty Ducayet, the state's federally mandated long-term care ombudsman for more than a decade. "That's a risk of expanding our social networks before we have widespread testing and ample PPE supplies for all."

Jenkins said Dallas County was already "seeing a widespread outbreak in the general population."

"The main concern would be that the citizens would hear what the governor is saying and act on that and begin to do things like go to large group meetings, go to theaters, go hang out in restaurants and then spread a lot more disease and make this worse," he added. "But at this point it's up to each person in Texas to make good choices."
One of the worst known outbreaks in Texas stemmed from an assisted living facility in College Station, about 95 miles northwest of Houston. But there are approximately 1,200 nursing homes and 2,000 assisted living facilities in the state, and last week the Texas Health and Human Services Commission reported 242 resident deaths in nursing homes and 61 fatalities in assisted living facilities, the Tribune reported.
Ducayet said the percentage of fatal cases impacting long-term care residents "shows just how vulnerable they are." In some cases, she explained, a staff member working at more than one facility who may not have known they were exposed could have contaminated more than one facility.

Given the well-documented risks posed to the elderly by COVID-19, the lack of transparency about outbreaks there was glaring.

"Any place that's a congregate living setting is going to be highly susceptible to increased transmission," Cervantes said. "For any respiratory disease, we know that's the case, be it influenza or measlesanything transmitted via respiratory droplet."
Meanwhile, though Texas is behind a handful of other statesincluding Louisiana and Oklahomafor the highest incarceration rate in the country, it has 104 prisons, which house up to 150,000 inmates. Separately, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice also oversees 17 state jails in 16 counties, and a researcher at the agency the Texas Commission on Jail Standards told The Daily Beast on Monday that the agency regulates 239 county jails.
Unauthorized access.

As the pandemic spread through the state, the Beto Unit in Palestine, Texas, quickly became the biggest hotspot among Texas prisons, topping 200 cases last week, according to the Marshall Project. The Harris County Jail, on the other hand, was responsible for at least 132 of the cases in that county.
"In prisons and jails, the spread is like wildfire," said Michele Deitch, a senior lecturer and prison conditions expert at the University of Texas law school. "And almost certainly the number of prisoners with the virus is much greater than they realize because they aren't doing extensive testing."

"What's happening inside these prisons isn't staying inside these prisons," Deitch told The Daily Beast. "Staff are going back home to their communities each night."
In addition to congregate spaces like prisons and nursing homes, meatpacking plants have been the root of several clusters in the state.

Last week, the CDC announced that processing facilities in 19 states had reported 4,913 cases and 20 deaths among meat industry workers, signaling the need for greater protections. This week, infection rates per 1,000 people in Texas counties with hot spots tied to meatpacking plants continued to climb, according to the Tribune. For example, Moore Countythe home of the JBS Beef meatpacking planthas the highest reported infection rate in the state at 18.30 cases per 1,000.
The plantin a town called Cactusis operated by about 3,000 workers, most of them immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala or refugees from elsewhere, according to the Tribune.

Amarillo Mayor Ginger Nelson said over the weekend that a team of federal officials would help "attack" those clusters. The Department of State Health Services has said it was looking into outbreaks at JBS Beef and Tyson Foods in Shelby County, near the border with Louisiana.
In Harris County, coronavirus cases were two to three times more prevalent in some of Houston's poorest areas codes compared with the county overall, according to a Houston Chronicle analysis. The virus tended to cluster in predominantly black neighborhoods, the paper reported, in findings that mirrored a Georgia-specific analysis by the CDC last week, and larger trends showing COVID-19 hitting communities of color especially hard. Experts noted the high risk associated in some of these areas, where many residents have underlying medical conditions.
"Our concerns are obviously, now that we're reopening, that we don't want to go backward and see an uptick in cases and hospitalizations," said Shah, the Harris County health official. Over the weekend, he said, he observed more people on blankets, out fishing, and playing frisbee without distance or facial coverings.
There will be a lag, he explained, between when those who venture out and possibly contract the virus develop symptoms or seek tests. That's what health experts like him are bracing for.

"As people continue to come back into their lives, we want to make sure they remember this is not normal life as we knew it prior to COVID-19," said Shah. "We just have to keep reminding people that we have to protect ourselves and each other. Otherwise we're going to be in the same boat as we were before."
Why don't you pull out the binary favorite 200M death prediction? Remember how you posted articles from the same sources in mid-March about how Texas was mis-managing the virus? Yet, we have yet to reach the levels of Michigan, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, Florida ... mostly big lockdown stats. I genuinely try not to make it personal, but I have serious doubts anyone who has a PhD in hard sciences could so easily discount data for emotion ... or it just proves how many scientist are dollar- and agenda-chasing buffoons that turn global cooling scares into global warming scares in < 20 years.
We will know in a couple of months, won't we.


Tell us more about 200M deaths ... or your grievance study degrees.


Don't recall anyone on this message board predicting 200M deaths .

Do seem to recall you predicting less than 3000.
Do you have special pearl-clutching gloves or does your boyfriend do it for you?
Canada2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Flaming Moderate said:

Canada2017 said:

Flaming Moderate said:

TexasScientist said:

Flaming Moderate said:

TexasScientist said:

Texans Brace for a COVID-19 'Explosion' Just Days After Reopening
LONE STAR PROBLEM

Prisons. Meat plants. Nursing homes. And nowhere near enough testing to know how bad the coronavirus problem is. Olivia Messer, reporter

The ascent of the novel coronavirus in the Lone Star State has been a gradual one. But as the state reopens its economy, infection counts are surgingand experts warn of a potential flood in the months ahead.
On March 4, the state health department reported Texas' first positive case of COVID-19. One month later, on April 4, there were 6,110 cases. As of MondayMay 4approximately 32,332 Texans had tested positive for the coronavirus, with an overnight uptick of 784. About 7,035 of those cases were confirmed in just one week, according to data analyzed by The Texas Tribune. And that's despite having one of the lowest testing rates in the nation.

Two counties lead the state's cases. Harris, which includes the city of Houston and is the third largest county in the United States, had 6,967 confirmed cases on Monday and more than 130 deaths, according to Dr. Umair A. Shah, executive director for the county's public health department. There were 129 new cases overnight, Shah told The Daily Beast.

On Sunday, Dallas County reported its highest new COVID-19 case total to date, with 234 additional positive resultsjust two days after Gov. Greg Abbott's statewide shelter-in-place order expired. As of 10 a.m. Monday, the county had reported 237 additional positive cases overnightanother recordbringing the total case count there to 4,370, including 114 deaths.

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins has repeatedly cautioned residents to continue social distancing despite Abbott's decision to reopen businesses on Friday. Abbott was just one in a laundry list of mostly Republican governors who recently launched aggressive efforts to reignite pandemic-ravaged economieseven as epidemiologists warn of possibly grave consequences.

But amid evidence of nationwide quarantine fatigue and revised models showing a surge in deaths expected in connection with COVID-19, public health experts in the state were keeping their eyes trained squarely on long-term care facilities and prisons. That's where they expected one of the most populous states in America to see its coronavirus future come into sharper, and more disturbing, focus.
"It's going to be scary going into the fall," said Diana Cervantes, director of the epidemiology program at the University of North Texas Health Science Center School of Public Health. "We're going to see a huge explosion of cases."

Neither Governor Abbott's office nor the Texas Department of State Health Services responded to questions from The Daily Beast on Monday. And to be clear, multiple experts warned that people leaving the house more often since the reopening may very well become infected, but that it would take days before symptoms present themselves, and longer to get test resultsif they can even acquire a test. In other words, any new surge tied to the reopening would not be clear for at least a week.


"For the state, the overall trend [of infections] is that the peaks are getting a little higher and a little wider," said Cervantes. "I think people get fatigued on doing these types of foundational public health measures to prevent transmission, like social-distancing and wearing masks."

As Dallas County data appeared to confirm on Monday, more than 40 percent of the state's coronavirus deaths are linked to long-term care facilities, which an analysis by the Tribune and ProPublica found last week. Jenkins, the county judge, told The Daily Beast that he hoped his community followed "the science," meaning the recommendations from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), public health officials, and major hospital chains in the area.

"They say that it's too early to open, that we haven't seen that two-week decline," Jenkins said, referring to federal guidance calling for a 14-day drop in new cases. "In fact, in Texas we haven't seen any decline. And we rank dead last in testing. So they're telling us to brace for worse infections because we didn't follow the science."

State health authorities have so far refused to name the nursing facilities with known casesor disclose the total number of infections across all such facilities in Texas.
Experts were sounding the alarm.

"What I am concerned about with reopening, is that, if facility staff broaden their contacts with people outside their household, then staff may acquire the virus and unknowingly bring it into the facility," said Patty Ducayet, the state's federally mandated long-term care ombudsman for more than a decade. "That's a risk of expanding our social networks before we have widespread testing and ample PPE supplies for all."

Jenkins said Dallas County was already "seeing a widespread outbreak in the general population."

"The main concern would be that the citizens would hear what the governor is saying and act on that and begin to do things like go to large group meetings, go to theaters, go hang out in restaurants and then spread a lot more disease and make this worse," he added. "But at this point it's up to each person in Texas to make good choices."
One of the worst known outbreaks in Texas stemmed from an assisted living facility in College Station, about 95 miles northwest of Houston. But there are approximately 1,200 nursing homes and 2,000 assisted living facilities in the state, and last week the Texas Health and Human Services Commission reported 242 resident deaths in nursing homes and 61 fatalities in assisted living facilities, the Tribune reported.
Ducayet said the percentage of fatal cases impacting long-term care residents "shows just how vulnerable they are." In some cases, she explained, a staff member working at more than one facility who may not have known they were exposed could have contaminated more than one facility.

Given the well-documented risks posed to the elderly by COVID-19, the lack of transparency about outbreaks there was glaring.

"Any place that's a congregate living setting is going to be highly susceptible to increased transmission," Cervantes said. "For any respiratory disease, we know that's the case, be it influenza or measlesanything transmitted via respiratory droplet."
Meanwhile, though Texas is behind a handful of other statesincluding Louisiana and Oklahomafor the highest incarceration rate in the country, it has 104 prisons, which house up to 150,000 inmates. Separately, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice also oversees 17 state jails in 16 counties, and a researcher at the agency the Texas Commission on Jail Standards told The Daily Beast on Monday that the agency regulates 239 county jails.
Unauthorized access.

As the pandemic spread through the state, the Beto Unit in Palestine, Texas, quickly became the biggest hotspot among Texas prisons, topping 200 cases last week, according to the Marshall Project. The Harris County Jail, on the other hand, was responsible for at least 132 of the cases in that county.
"In prisons and jails, the spread is like wildfire," said Michele Deitch, a senior lecturer and prison conditions expert at the University of Texas law school. "And almost certainly the number of prisoners with the virus is much greater than they realize because they aren't doing extensive testing."

"What's happening inside these prisons isn't staying inside these prisons," Deitch told The Daily Beast. "Staff are going back home to their communities each night."
In addition to congregate spaces like prisons and nursing homes, meatpacking plants have been the root of several clusters in the state.

Last week, the CDC announced that processing facilities in 19 states had reported 4,913 cases and 20 deaths among meat industry workers, signaling the need for greater protections. This week, infection rates per 1,000 people in Texas counties with hot spots tied to meatpacking plants continued to climb, according to the Tribune. For example, Moore Countythe home of the JBS Beef meatpacking planthas the highest reported infection rate in the state at 18.30 cases per 1,000.
The plantin a town called Cactusis operated by about 3,000 workers, most of them immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala or refugees from elsewhere, according to the Tribune.

Amarillo Mayor Ginger Nelson said over the weekend that a team of federal officials would help "attack" those clusters. The Department of State Health Services has said it was looking into outbreaks at JBS Beef and Tyson Foods in Shelby County, near the border with Louisiana.
In Harris County, coronavirus cases were two to three times more prevalent in some of Houston's poorest areas codes compared with the county overall, according to a Houston Chronicle analysis. The virus tended to cluster in predominantly black neighborhoods, the paper reported, in findings that mirrored a Georgia-specific analysis by the CDC last week, and larger trends showing COVID-19 hitting communities of color especially hard. Experts noted the high risk associated in some of these areas, where many residents have underlying medical conditions.
"Our concerns are obviously, now that we're reopening, that we don't want to go backward and see an uptick in cases and hospitalizations," said Shah, the Harris County health official. Over the weekend, he said, he observed more people on blankets, out fishing, and playing frisbee without distance or facial coverings.
There will be a lag, he explained, between when those who venture out and possibly contract the virus develop symptoms or seek tests. That's what health experts like him are bracing for.

"As people continue to come back into their lives, we want to make sure they remember this is not normal life as we knew it prior to COVID-19," said Shah. "We just have to keep reminding people that we have to protect ourselves and each other. Otherwise we're going to be in the same boat as we were before."
Why don't you pull out the binary favorite 200M death prediction? Remember how you posted articles from the same sources in mid-March about how Texas was mis-managing the virus? Yet, we have yet to reach the levels of Michigan, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, Florida ... mostly big lockdown stats. I genuinely try not to make it personal, but I have serious doubts anyone who has a PhD in hard sciences could so easily discount data for emotion ... or it just proves how many scientist are dollar- and agenda-chasing buffoons that turn global cooling scares into global warming scares in < 20 years.
We will know in a couple of months, won't we.


Tell us more about 200M deaths ... or your grievance study degrees.


Don't recall anyone on this message board predicting 200M deaths .

Do seem to recall you predicting less than 3000.
Do you have special pearl-clutching gloves or does your boyfriend do it for you?


This latest tripe is no surprise.

As you act like a pre teen most of the time .

Who on this message board predicted this 200M death count that you quote all the time ?
TexasScientist
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Flaming Moderate said:

blackie said:

TexasScientist said:

Flaming Moderate said:

TexasScientist said:

Texans Brace for a COVID-19 'Explosion' Just Days After Reopening
LONE STAR PROBLEM

Prisons. Meat plants. Nursing homes. And nowhere near enough testing to know how bad the coronavirus problem is. Olivia Messer, reporter

The ascent of the novel coronavirus in the Lone Star State has been a gradual one. But as the state reopens its economy, infection counts are surgingand experts warn of a potential flood in the months ahead.
On March 4, the state health department reported Texas' first positive case of COVID-19. One month later, on April 4, there were 6,110 cases. As of MondayMay 4approximately 32,332 Texans had tested positive for the coronavirus, with an overnight uptick of 784. About 7,035 of those cases were confirmed in just one week, according to data analyzed by The Texas Tribune. And that's despite having one of the lowest testing rates in the nation.

Two counties lead the state's cases. Harris, which includes the city of Houston and is the third largest county in the United States, had 6,967 confirmed cases on Monday and more than 130 deaths, according to Dr. Umair A. Shah, executive director for the county's public health department. There were 129 new cases overnight, Shah told The Daily Beast.

On Sunday, Dallas County reported its highest new COVID-19 case total to date, with 234 additional positive resultsjust two days after Gov. Greg Abbott's statewide shelter-in-place order expired. As of 10 a.m. Monday, the county had reported 237 additional positive cases overnightanother recordbringing the total case count there to 4,370, including 114 deaths.

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins has repeatedly cautioned residents to continue social distancing despite Abbott's decision to reopen businesses on Friday. Abbott was just one in a laundry list of mostly Republican governors who recently launched aggressive efforts to reignite pandemic-ravaged economieseven as epidemiologists warn of possibly grave consequences.

But amid evidence of nationwide quarantine fatigue and revised models showing a surge in deaths expected in connection with COVID-19, public health experts in the state were keeping their eyes trained squarely on long-term care facilities and prisons. That's where they expected one of the most populous states in America to see its coronavirus future come into sharper, and more disturbing, focus.
"It's going to be scary going into the fall," said Diana Cervantes, director of the epidemiology program at the University of North Texas Health Science Center School of Public Health. "We're going to see a huge explosion of cases."

Neither Governor Abbott's office nor the Texas Department of State Health Services responded to questions from The Daily Beast on Monday. And to be clear, multiple experts warned that people leaving the house more often since the reopening may very well become infected, but that it would take days before symptoms present themselves, and longer to get test resultsif they can even acquire a test. In other words, any new surge tied to the reopening would not be clear for at least a week.


"For the state, the overall trend [of infections] is that the peaks are getting a little higher and a little wider," said Cervantes. "I think people get fatigued on doing these types of foundational public health measures to prevent transmission, like social-distancing and wearing masks."

As Dallas County data appeared to confirm on Monday, more than 40 percent of the state's coronavirus deaths are linked to long-term care facilities, which an analysis by the Tribune and ProPublica found last week. Jenkins, the county judge, told The Daily Beast that he hoped his community followed "the science," meaning the recommendations from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), public health officials, and major hospital chains in the area.

"They say that it's too early to open, that we haven't seen that two-week decline," Jenkins said, referring to federal guidance calling for a 14-day drop in new cases. "In fact, in Texas we haven't seen any decline. And we rank dead last in testing. So they're telling us to brace for worse infections because we didn't follow the science."

State health authorities have so far refused to name the nursing facilities with known casesor disclose the total number of infections across all such facilities in Texas.
Experts were sounding the alarm.

"What I am concerned about with reopening, is that, if facility staff broaden their contacts with people outside their household, then staff may acquire the virus and unknowingly bring it into the facility," said Patty Ducayet, the state's federally mandated long-term care ombudsman for more than a decade. "That's a risk of expanding our social networks before we have widespread testing and ample PPE supplies for all."

Jenkins said Dallas County was already "seeing a widespread outbreak in the general population."

"The main concern would be that the citizens would hear what the governor is saying and act on that and begin to do things like go to large group meetings, go to theaters, go hang out in restaurants and then spread a lot more disease and make this worse," he added. "But at this point it's up to each person in Texas to make good choices."
One of the worst known outbreaks in Texas stemmed from an assisted living facility in College Station, about 95 miles northwest of Houston. But there are approximately 1,200 nursing homes and 2,000 assisted living facilities in the state, and last week the Texas Health and Human Services Commission reported 242 resident deaths in nursing homes and 61 fatalities in assisted living facilities, the Tribune reported.
Ducayet said the percentage of fatal cases impacting long-term care residents "shows just how vulnerable they are." In some cases, she explained, a staff member working at more than one facility who may not have known they were exposed could have contaminated more than one facility.

Given the well-documented risks posed to the elderly by COVID-19, the lack of transparency about outbreaks there was glaring.

"Any place that's a congregate living setting is going to be highly susceptible to increased transmission," Cervantes said. "For any respiratory disease, we know that's the case, be it influenza or measlesanything transmitted via respiratory droplet."
Meanwhile, though Texas is behind a handful of other statesincluding Louisiana and Oklahomafor the highest incarceration rate in the country, it has 104 prisons, which house up to 150,000 inmates. Separately, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice also oversees 17 state jails in 16 counties, and a researcher at the agency the Texas Commission on Jail Standards told The Daily Beast on Monday that the agency regulates 239 county jails.
Unauthorized access.

As the pandemic spread through the state, the Beto Unit in Palestine, Texas, quickly became the biggest hotspot among Texas prisons, topping 200 cases last week, according to the Marshall Project. The Harris County Jail, on the other hand, was responsible for at least 132 of the cases in that county.
"In prisons and jails, the spread is like wildfire," said Michele Deitch, a senior lecturer and prison conditions expert at the University of Texas law school. "And almost certainly the number of prisoners with the virus is much greater than they realize because they aren't doing extensive testing."

"What's happening inside these prisons isn't staying inside these prisons," Deitch told The Daily Beast. "Staff are going back home to their communities each night."
In addition to congregate spaces like prisons and nursing homes, meatpacking plants have been the root of several clusters in the state.

Last week, the CDC announced that processing facilities in 19 states had reported 4,913 cases and 20 deaths among meat industry workers, signaling the need for greater protections. This week, infection rates per 1,000 people in Texas counties with hot spots tied to meatpacking plants continued to climb, according to the Tribune. For example, Moore Countythe home of the JBS Beef meatpacking planthas the highest reported infection rate in the state at 18.30 cases per 1,000.
The plantin a town called Cactusis operated by about 3,000 workers, most of them immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala or refugees from elsewhere, according to the Tribune.

Amarillo Mayor Ginger Nelson said over the weekend that a team of federal officials would help "attack" those clusters. The Department of State Health Services has said it was looking into outbreaks at JBS Beef and Tyson Foods in Shelby County, near the border with Louisiana.
In Harris County, coronavirus cases were two to three times more prevalent in some of Houston's poorest areas codes compared with the county overall, according to a Houston Chronicle analysis. The virus tended to cluster in predominantly black neighborhoods, the paper reported, in findings that mirrored a Georgia-specific analysis by the CDC last week, and larger trends showing COVID-19 hitting communities of color especially hard. Experts noted the high risk associated in some of these areas, where many residents have underlying medical conditions.
"Our concerns are obviously, now that we're reopening, that we don't want to go backward and see an uptick in cases and hospitalizations," said Shah, the Harris County health official. Over the weekend, he said, he observed more people on blankets, out fishing, and playing frisbee without distance or facial coverings.
There will be a lag, he explained, between when those who venture out and possibly contract the virus develop symptoms or seek tests. That's what health experts like him are bracing for.

"As people continue to come back into their lives, we want to make sure they remember this is not normal life as we knew it prior to COVID-19," said Shah. "We just have to keep reminding people that we have to protect ourselves and each other. Otherwise we're going to be in the same boat as we were before."
Why don't you pull out the binary favorite 200M death prediction? Remember how you posted articles from the same sources in mid-March about how Texas was mis-managing the virus? Yet, we have yet to reach the levels of Michigan, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, Florida ... mostly big lockdown stats. I genuinely try not to make it personal, but I have serious doubts anyone who has a PhD in hard sciences could so easily discount data for emotion ... or it just proves how many scientist are dollar- and agenda-chasing buffoons that turn global cooling scares into global warming scares in < 20 years.
We will know in a couple of months, won't we.
.....and how the citizens of Texas handled or mis-handled the reopening.

Based on what I see from pictures of people being out, I am afraid it will be the latter. And now we are hearing reports of heart related problems in kids. The biggest "hoax" ( a word that is greatly favored by many here) is that the young have nothing to be concerned about. I am well past the age of being considered young, but if I was I don't know what my attitude would be about trying to go back to "normal". But if I did, I sure would be trying to stay away from crowds and certainly wouldn't want an unmasked waiter to be putting down my food on my table after having breathed all over it.

I'm sorry, but I have been around the public for too long. The American public is going to screw up this re-opening by acting like nothing is different than it was four months ago.

We have only known about this virus for less than a year. We don't know for sure how it is transmitted, why it affects one healthy person mildly and another sends them to death's door and beyond, if it is seasonal or cyclic, and if it mutates to something better or worse. We have nothing for certain that has proven to be a consistent and effective treatment for the majority of people. We can't declare the final story because we don't know the final story and won't for many more months, if then.
Remember when the "experts" told us:
1. It could not be transmitted human-to-human
2. Masks are not helpful
3. This is not a big deal - go to Chinatown for dinner

Yeah ... I'm so much more suspicious about the 99%.
15 will go to zero. It will be gone in April ....
 
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