Friscobear said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Friscobear said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Friscobear said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So saying something as obvious as Scripture condemns homosexuality is now controversial and off-limits at a Christian University? It requires a review by Baylor?

---

They went farther than this. They said that if you're an ally of the movement, you aren't a Christian.

I don't find a gay hate clause in John 3:16.

Furthermore, there are many Christ followers who interpret the Bible differently from you on this issue. This doesn't mean they aren't Christians. It just means they have a different interpretation.

There are many different nuances to this issue. These YCT pronouncements are basically ugly and mean-spirited.

This isn't even a core issue in the scriptures. The scriptures talk a lot more about greed, injustice, hypocrisy, hate, and the like.

Basically, the YCT is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Also, because they're young, they probably haven't learned the lesson that if you want a movement to gain sympathy and grow, attack it.

---

Funny that you would type your first paragraph and then talk about nuance.

They did not say that if you are an ally of the movement that you aren't a Christian. They said that you likely aren't a Christian.

You can argue that point if you'd like, and I'm not saying that I agree totally with their statement, but at least don't misrepresent what they actually said.

You know, nuance and all.

---

Oh. Big difference.

So you're not certainly going to hell but likely going to hell.

That clears it up!

---

You wouldn't call that a nuance?

---

Uh, no.

I call that a distinction without a difference.

Nuance is: I believe homosexual practices are sinful, but homosexuals shouldn't be discriminated against. Or I believe people are born gay but should be celibate. Or I believe homosexual practices aren't sinful if the couple is married.

These and many more nuanced positions are out there.

---

Nuance: a subtle difference in or shade of meaning, expression, or sound.

I'd say it's a textbook example. But you do you and never admit you might be wrong.

---

BearTruth13 said:

---

Crazy to think where we are as a society that a young conservative organization can't exist at Baylor of all places.

So much for diversity of thought.

---

sombear said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Surely nothing will happen officially since their stance is in line with the university's core beliefs.

---

Not sure about that. It's one thing to say these practices are sinful. It's another to say that if you are sympathetic to such people you're going to hell.

---

I think it's wrong coming from either side. I'm a conservative Christian (theologically and politically) who very much believes in big-ten Christianity. But, I have to point out that if I had a nickel for each time a liberal (including the great statesman Obama) questioned someone's Christianity for not supporting Obamacare, corporate taxes, "love whomever you please," or illegal immigrants, I'd be quite wealthy . . . .

---

George Truett said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Surely nothing will happen officially since their stance is in line with the university's core beliefs.

---

Not sure about that. It's one thing to say these practices are sinful. It's another to say that if you are sympathetic to such people you're going to hell.

---

I guess by that definition, if your doctor warns you that smoking can give you a heart attack, that makes the doctor "hateful" and judgmental of a valid life choice.

---

No.

Going to hell is a little more severe than having a heart attack.

Plus, I don't believe being gay is a life choice.

---

Then you believe God made them gay and then held them to a different standard.

That would make God evil.

---

I don't believe God made them gay. I believe many were born that way.

There's also debate about the meaning of scripture passages about homosexuality. We've already had debates at length about that around here. So I won't get into all that, other than to say sincere Christ followers disagree on the interpretation and application of these passages.

---

So god made conditions in the Universe that would cause some to be gay without their control, and then states that engaging in that behavior is a sin...even though you can't control it.

That's screwed up. I think your message will turn people away from god.

---

Ah, you've arrived at something.

God created a universe in which men lust after women and then tells them not to act on it. That's not much different.

We also have to remember that this universe is broken. Some people are born pedophiles. I'm not saying that's the same as being born gay. But it's part of our broken universe.

Or, maybe the problem has been with us. If the scriptures, especially the teachings of Jesus, reflect God's priorities, then homosexual practices aren't high on his list.

What we've done is take a sin that only a few commit and elevated it above sins that many of us commit.

---

George Truett said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So saying something as obvious as Scripture condemns homosexuality is now controversial and off-limits at a Christian University? It requires a review by Baylor?

---

They went farther than this. They said that if you're an ally of the movement, you aren't a Christian.

I don't find a gay hate clause in John 3:16.

Furthermore, there are many Christ followers who interpret the Bible differently from you on this issue. This doesn't mean they aren't Christians. It just means they have a different interpretation.

There are many different nuances to this issue. These YCT pronouncements are basically ugly and mean-spirited.

This isn't even a core issue in the scriptures. The scriptures talk a lot more about greed, injustice, hypocrisy, hate, and the like.

Basically, the YCT is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Also, because they're young, they probably haven't learned the lesson that if you want a movement to gain sympathy and grow, attack it.

---

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

---

Okay. Let's run with that.

It says the "sexually immoral" and adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Donald Trump is twice divorced and remarried. Jesus said plainly that if you do that, you're guilty of adultery. Full stop. Furthermore, he has been unfaithful to all his wives. His current marriage is adulterous.

Is it then incompatible with Christianity to be an ally of Donald Trump, since by your standard he is guilty of adultery and has not repented? Does this mean he's not a Christian and is going to hell? And that if you're an ally of his, you're also not a Christian and going to hell?

Furthermore, Jesus defined looking at a woman lustfully as adultery. Under your standard pretty much all of us men are not going to be in the kingdom.

What about people who are greedy? What about slanderers (see the aforementioned Trump)?

You can't just camp out on the homosexual part of this text and ignore the rest.

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Surely nothing will happen officially since their stance is in line with the university's core beliefs.

---

Not sure about that. It's one thing to say these practices are sinful. It's another to say that if you are sympathetic to such people you're going to hell.

---

I guess by that definition, if your doctor warns you that smoking can give you a heart attack, that makes the doctor "hateful" and judgmental of a valid life choice.

---

No.

Going to hell is a little more severe than having a heart attack.

Plus, I don't believe being gay is a life choice.

---

Then you believe God made them gay and then held them to a different standard.

That would make God evil.

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Changing your course of action is part of contrition and repentance.

Saying 'I'm sorry' then going back and doing it again is not following Christ.

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Surely nothing will happen officially since their stance is in line with the university's core beliefs.

---

Not sure about that. It's one thing to say these practices are sinful. It's another to say that if you are sympathetic to such people you're going to hell.

---

I guess by that definition, if your doctor warns you that smoking can give you a heart attack, that makes the doctor "hateful" and judgmental of a valid life choice.

---

No.

Going to hell is a little more severe than having a heart attack.

Plus, I don't believe being gay is a life choice.

---

Then you believe God made them gay and then held them to a different standard.

That would make God evil.

---

I don't believe God made them gay. I believe many were born that way.

There's also debate about the meaning of scripture passages about homosexuality. We've already had debates at length about that around here. So I won't get into all that, other than to say sincere Christ followers disagree on the interpretation and application of these passages.

---

So god made conditions in the Universe that would cause some to be gay without their control, and then states that engaging in that behavior is a sin...even though you can't control it.

That's screwed up. I think your message will turn people away from god.

---

Ah, you've arrived at something.

God created a universe in which men lust after women and then tells them not to act on it. That's not much different.

We also have to remember that this universe is broken. Some people are born pedophiles. I'm not saying that's the same as being born gay. But it's part of our broken universe.

Or, maybe the problem has been with us. If the scriptures, especially the teachings of Jesus, reflect God's priorities, then homosexual practices aren't high on his list.

What we've done is take a sin that only a few commit and elevated it above sins that many of us commit.

---

Actually he does tell us to act on it with one woman and to multiply.

People aren't born with predisposition to pedophilia. We're not going down the path where you construct it as a disability.

Absolutely deplorable.

God doesn't sic sin in us. We choose it.

---

Friscobear said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So saying something as obvious as Scripture condemns homosexuality is now controversial and off-limits at a Christian University? It requires a review by Baylor?

---

They went farther than this. They said that if you're an ally of the movement, you aren't a Christian.

I don't find a gay hate clause in John 3:16.

Furthermore, there are many Christ followers who interpret the Bible differently from you on this issue. This doesn't mean they aren't Christians. It just means they have a different interpretation.

There are many different nuances to this issue. These YCT pronouncements are basically ugly and mean-spirited.

This isn't even a core issue in the scriptures. The scriptures talk a lot more about greed, injustice, hypocrisy, hate, and the like.

Basically, the YCT is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Also, because they're young, they probably haven't learned the lesson that if you want a movement to gain sympathy and grow, attack it.

---

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

---

Okay. Let's run with that.

It says the "sexually immoral" and adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Donald Trump is twice divorced and remarried. Jesus said plainly that if you do that, you're guilty of adultery. Full stop. Furthermore, he has been unfaithful to all his wives. His current marriage is adulterous.

Is it then incompatible with Christianity to be an ally of Donald Trump, since by your standard he is guilty of adultery and has not repented? Does this mean he's not a Christian and is going to hell? And that if you're an ally of his, you're also not a Christian and going to hell?

Furthermore, Jesus defined looking at a woman lustfully as adultery. Under your standard pretty much all of us men are not going to be in the kingdom.

What about people who are greedy? What about slanderers (see the aforementioned Trump)?

You can't just camp out on the homosexual part of this text and ignore the rest.

---

Jesus' blood cleanses Christians from those sins. Homosexuality included.

---

UBBY said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Surely nothing will happen officially since their stance is in line with the university's core beliefs.

---

Not sure about that. It's one thing to say these practices are sinful. It's another to say that if you are sympathetic to such people you're going to hell.

---

I guess by that definition, if your doctor warns you that smoking can give you a heart attack, that makes the doctor "hateful" and judgmental of a valid life choice.

---

No.

Going to hell is a little more severe than having a heart attack.

Plus, I don't believe being gay is a life choice.

---

Then you believe God made them gay and then held them to a different standard.

That would make God evil.

---

I don't know if it makes god evil but it definitely makes god an *******.

---

George Truett said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Surely nothing will happen officially since their stance is in line with the university's core beliefs.

---

Not sure about that. It's one thing to say these practices are sinful. It's another to say that if you are sympathetic to such people you're going to hell.

---

I guess by that definition, if your doctor warns you that smoking can give you a heart attack, that makes the doctor "hateful" and judgmental of a valid life choice.

---

No.

Going to hell is a little more severe than having a heart attack.

Plus, I don't believe being gay is a life choice.

---

You are entitled to your opinion. But quoting Bible verses in context is not something a Christian-inspired university ought to disparage.

---

Again, it's not the scripture quoting that's off base. It's taking the leap of pontificating about someone's Christianity.

---

br53 said:

---

It does not matter, all you as a Christian are responsible for doing is loving them and trying to teach them that Jesus died for their sins and for them. You can teach (not preach) them the Christian word. If they take it great if they dont then it is theirs to answer.

---

bear2be2 said:

---

br53 said:

---

It does not matter, all you as a Christian are responsible for doing is loving them and trying to teach them that Jesus died for their sins and for them. You can teach (not preach) them the Christian word. If they take it great if they dont then it is theirs to answer.

---

I'd take it a step further and argue that you shouldn't presume to know the status of or speak on the salvation/sin of anyone with whom you have no relationship. It's impossible to speak truth in love to someone with whom no basic foundation has been built. You're simply judging them under the guise of love, which goes against the teachings of Christ and is terribly damaging to one's testimony.

In re-reading the new testament, I was struck by the amount of time both Jesus and Paul spent telling early Christians to worry about their own damn selves and stop focusing on those they presume to be lost/sinners. The modern church would be well served to heed that advice. You'll attract more positive attention/win more souls by living and loving like Christ than you will jawing and judging like Pharisees.

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Surely nothing will happen officially since their stance is in line with the university's core beliefs.

---

Not sure about that. It's one thing to say these practices are sinful. It's another to say that if you are sympathetic to such people you're going to hell.

---

I guess by that definition, if your doctor warns you that smoking can give you a heart attack, that makes the doctor "hateful" and judgmental of a valid life choice.

---

No.

Going to hell is a little more severe than having a heart attack.

Plus, I don't believe being gay is a life choice.

---

Then you believe God made them gay and then held them to a different standard.

That would make God evil.

---

I don't believe God made them gay. I believe many were born that way.

There's also debate about the meaning of scripture passages about homosexuality. We've already had debates at length about that around here. So I won't get into all that, other than to say sincere Christ followers disagree on the interpretation and application of these passages.

---

So god made conditions in the Universe that would cause some to be gay without their control, and then states that engaging in that behavior is a sin...even though you can't control it.

That's screwed up. I think your message will turn people away from god.

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Changing your course of action is part of contrition and repentance.

Saying 'I'm sorry' then going back and doing it again is not following Christ.

---

Most Christian porn consumers fall squarely in that category. They are habitual offenders. Why does the church treat them with grace and homosexuals with disdain?

---

Mothra said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Changing your course of action is part of contrition and repentance.

Saying 'I'm sorry' then going back and doing it again is not following Christ.

---

Most Christian porn consumers fall squarely in that category. They are habitual offenders. Why does the church treat them with grace and homosexuals with disdain?

---

Your generalization hasn't been my experience. I have been a regular attender of several churches' celebrate recovery ministries for the past 10 years, and we have many people in recovery who struggle with all sorts of sexual addiction, whether it was pornography for me, or homosexuality for a few of my CR friends. While we certainly confess sin and hold each other accountable, grace abounds regardless of the sin.

Now, is there a difference between someone who struggles with viewing images and someone who actively engages in sexual intercourse with others, whether hetero or homo? Of course. The latter is much more risky, and can lead to more destructive consequences. But it is still sin nonetheless, just like mine.

I don't know if you're a follower of Christ or if so, what your experience has been, but I must say your characterizations certainly bear little resemblance to my experience.

---

Mothra said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

br53 said:

---

It does not matter, all you as a Christian are responsible for doing is loving them and trying to teach them that Jesus died for their sins and for them. You can teach (not preach) them the Christian word. If they take it great if they dont then it is theirs to answer.

---

I'd take it a step further and argue that you shouldn't presume to know the status of or speak on the salvation/sin of anyone with whom you have no relationship. It's impossible to speak truth in love to someone with whom no basic foundation has been built. You're simply judging them under the guise of love, which goes against the teachings of Christ and is terribly damaging to one's testimony.

In re-reading the new testament, I was struck by the amount of time both Jesus and Paul spent telling early Christians to worry about their own damn selves and stop focusing on those they presume to be lost/sinners. The modern church would be well served to heed that advice. You'll attract more positive attention/win more souls by living and loving like Christ than you will jawing and judging like Pharisees.

---

This is a good post, which I agree with for the most part.

That said, if we don't preach sin and its consequences, then we do a disservice to those we are telling about Jesus. That is, after all, the reason for his death.

---

Baylor3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

George Truett said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Surely nothing will happen officially since their stance is in line with the university's core beliefs.

---

Not sure about that. It's one thing to say these practices are sinful. It's another to say that if you are sympathetic to such people you're going to hell.

---

I guess by that definition, if your doctor warns you that smoking can give you a heart attack, that makes the doctor "hateful" and judgmental of a valid life choice.

---

No.

Going to hell is a little more severe than having a heart attack.

Plus, I don't believe being gay is a life choice.

---

Then you believe God made them gay and then held them to a different standard.

That would make God evil.

---

I don't believe God made them gay. I believe many were born that way.

There's also debate about the meaning of scripture passages about homosexuality. We've already had debates at length about that around here. So I won't get into all that, other than to say sincere Christ followers disagree on the interpretation and application of these passages.

---

So god made conditions in the Universe that would cause some to be gay without their control, and then states that engaging in that behavior is a sin...even though you can't control it.

That's screwed up. I think your message will turn people away from god.

---

god or God?

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Changing your course of action is part of contrition and repentance.

Saying 'I'm sorry' then going back and doing it again is not following Christ.

---

Most Christian porn consumers fall squarely in that category. They are habitual offenders. Why does the church treat them with grace and homosexuals with disdain?

---

Your generalization hasn't been my experience. I have been a regular attender of several churches' celebrate recovery ministries for the past 10 years, and we have many people in recovery who struggle with all sorts of sexual addiction, whether it was pornography for me, or homosexuality for a few of my CR friends. While we certainly confess sin and hold each other accountable, grace abounds regardless of the sin.

Now, is there a difference between someone who struggles with viewing images and someone who actively engages in sexual intercourse with others, whether hetero or homo? Of course. The latter is much more risky, and can lead to more destructive consequences. But it is still sin nonetheless, just like mine.

I don't know if you're a follower of Christ or if so, what your experience has been, but I must say your characterizations certainly bear little resemblance to my experience.

---

I would consider myself a (woeful) follower of Christ, but I'm not sure I'd identify as a Christian anymore. And it's my experience with the evangelical church and the lack of any discernible/observable impact American Christianity has had on most of its followers' actions that has led me to this low point in my faith journey.

I'm glad that your experience -- and that of your homosexual friends -- was marked by grace. That has not been my experience. While there have certainly been individuals I could point to who have been radically transformed by the holy spirit and found a way in this broken world to adhere to the greatest commandment, they've been an extreme minority. Most of the Christians I know (and I include myself here) are just as ****ed up and sin-bent as those lost souls they pray for. They just have a self-help seminar/country club to attend every Sunday.

---

Username checks out said:

---

This thread has affirmed to me that the baylor family has a lot of preachy dudes who check out lesbian porn on the side.

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Username checks out said:

---

This thread has affirmed to me that the baylor family has a lot of preachy dudes who check out lesbian porn on the side.

---

You truly are offensive to me.

---

Username checks out said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Username checks out said:

---

This thread has affirmed to me that the baylor family has a lot of preachy dudes who check out lesbian porn on the side.

---

You truly are offensive to me.

---

You should be more offended by hypocrites. They were at the top of jesus's **** list. Matthew chapter 23 for those of you with bibles.

---

Username checks out said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Username checks out said:

---

This thread has affirmed to me that the baylor family has a lot of preachy dudes who check out lesbian porn on the side.

---

You truly are offensive to me.

---

You should be more offended by hypocrites. They were at the top of jesus's **** list. Matthew chapter 23 for those of you with bibles.

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Username checks out said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Username checks out said:

---

This thread has affirmed to me that the baylor family has a lot of preachy dudes who check out lesbian porn on the side.

---

You truly are offensive to me.

---

You should be more offended by hypocrites. They were at the top of jesus's **** list. Matthew chapter 23 for those of you with bibles.

---

Hypocrites like yourself?

---

Username checks out said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Username checks out said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Username checks out said:

---

This thread has affirmed to me that the baylor family has a lot of preachy dudes who check out lesbian porn on the side.

---

You truly are offensive to me.

---

You should be more offended by hypocrites. They were at the top of jesus's **** list. Matthew chapter 23 for those of you with bibles.

---

Hypocrites like yourself?

---

I am positive there are hypocrisies in my life but judging others' sexual preferences while rubbing one out on my own terms is not one of them. What's in your spank tank highlight reel?

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Username checks out said:

---

Gold Tron said:

---

Username checks out said:

---

This thread has affirmed to me that the baylor family has a lot of preachy dudes who check out lesbian porn on the side.

---

You truly are offensive to me.

---

You should be more offended by hypocrites. They were at the top of jesus's **** list. Matthew chapter 23 for those of you with bibles.

---

What does that have to do with me. You don't know anything about me. What I infer from you is that anyone that disagrees with you must have some deviant behavior of their own. Those were your words.

---