regarding the final paragraph; I don't know anyone that doesn't "acknowledge" our history. I think the divisions occur on the "reckon with". So, assuming that is correct, what does that reckoning look like from your point of view?bear2be2 said:These types of gotcha posts don't work on me because I don't have a side. I'm against radicals of all stripes and partisan hackery in all its forms.LIB,MR BEARS said:I am white conservative and completely agree with this post.bear2be2 said:Unfortunately, that's the way a lot of the post-Trump right views this, and it's problematic at a fundamental level. When every effort to examine social/racial justice big and small -- or in this case, just celebrate a Black cause that's good for the collective -- is deemed to be liberal, and all things liberal are deemed to be evil, it's hard to make a case that your movement is anything but regressive, if not outright racist.Porteroso said:Redbrickbear said:
[Debating the merits of Juneteenth is a pointless and obfuscates the underlying tension between progressivism and tradition- an irreconcilable conflict that defines every cultural skirmish today. Time and again tradition goes down in defeat- it's supporters scattered and demoralized. These defeats are due in no small part to traditions' supposed standard-bears and leaders, who are not only fearful/intimidated by progressives, but have also lost faith in their own cause.
In this corner, they can only hope to quibble- always in abstract terms; ignoring the obvious connection between past routs and final defeat. Today they must pretend that the decision to declare a new holiday was motivated by transcendent values at the heart of their tradition.
As opposed to being a brilliant maneuver to validate an embattled narrative and further estrange the old American mythos. The standard-bearers can't acknowledge that this all comes on the heels of "mostly peaceful protests," this past summer, of Ibram Kendi, CRT, and a new domestic war on terror against "white supremacists".
Because they fear and envy their enemies, and because they already ceded the battlefield long ago, they are content to play the role of a "heel"- graciously extending good faith to their enemies, and often denying it to their allies.
Notwithstanding, the struggle between tradition and progress will endure, but every surrender will be more costly than the last, and every "victory" just another step towards a final defeat.]
Another incredible post. I got "people want to celebrate the end of slavery" out of this, and you gotQuote:
the underlying tension between progressivism and tradition- an irreconcilable conflict that defines every cultural skirmish today
This thread is really a perfect example. If elevating Juneteenth to a national holiday is a bridge too far, what minority cause could possibly be acceptable to those who think every minority cause is an ideological affront?
I still think most conservatives are reasonable, well-meaning people who share a goal of equality and racial harmony. But they've adopted a toxic ideology through which that can only be achieved on their terms, and anything else is a progressive attack on their traditional way of life.
Now an intelligent person who thinks open honest discussions are beneficial would not just look at the other side, as you already have but, look at their own side with a bit of introspection.
So, after you've done that, let us know what you think. Is your side/yourself squeaky clean? Where have you/y'all pushed too far or in the wrong direction if you detect any problem at all. If not, then be patient with all of us in the unwashed masses as we play catch-up.
I'm no more a fan of the far left than I am the far right. And it's largely for the same reason -- both are too rigid in their dogma to be contributing members to a functioning, harmonious society. And I'd argue neither even particularly wants a functioning, harmonious society. They'd rather bend their political adversaries to their will and create a society around their ideals, which means there's no satisfactory end game for either group as long as the other exists. It's a constant fight that can't be won.
So I would say the same thing to the more extreme adherents of critical race theory that I would to Trump Republicans. If true equality, justice, racial harmony and unification aren't your goals, I have no use for your ideology. It's unlikely we'll ever actually achieve those things in this country with an ideological divide that's only growing wider, but they have to be our shared goal. There has to be a finish line and realistic/identifiable checkpoints by which we can measure and celebrate progress.
I don't typically find that in any philosophy that views all relationships through an oppressor/oppressed lens. But at the same time, I don't have trouble seeing the impact past oppressor/oppressed relationships have on our current society. And I understand that we need to acknowledge and reckon with that history before we can move forward in a meaningful, productive way.
Anyone can smell a rotten egg. It takes something more to lay a better one.
