Gameday Thread: #17 Baylor (15-5) vs Arkansas (14-6)

Anyone think next season's freshmen will be around for more than one year?

After last year it seems one and done is going to be more common. This should be expected after the natty & in the new portal era with NIL. It seems Drew has adapted to these new realities & may not have had much choice but to rely on these kind of recruits more than in the past.

We weren't that far from a second NC last year. We barely lost to the runner up and already had a win against the eventual champ. And that was thanks in large part to Sochan and KB. Without JTT's injury, who knows? There's not a single recipe for success.

And roster stability over four years is much less predictable with transfer stuff. Getting old isn't as sure a thing as it was. So if you're going to be bringing in transfers for a year, you might as well bring in some five star freshmen for a year.

100%. The transfer portal and immediate eligibility negates getting transfers like Teague or Davion and stashing them for a year. Our roster will remain a fluid combination of 4 year freshmen, transfers, and 5 stars. Drew has found a way to adapt and embrace this new reality while still preserving roster continuity and our culture of JOY.

historian said:

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Anyone think next season's freshmen will be around for more than one year?

After last year it seems one and done is going to be more common. This should be expected after the natty & in the new portal era with NIL. It seems Drew has adapted to these new realities & may not have had much choice but to rely on these kind of recruits more than in the past.

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Not so much.

I agree we live in an age of overhype, so many athletes imagine they are pros already just waiting on their agent to sign them to be the next NBA king. Reality is a hard teacher on that score.

Oldbear83 said:

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historian said:

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Anyone think next season's freshmen will be around for more than one year?

After last year it seems one and done is going to be more common. This should be expected after the natty & in the new portal era with NIL. It seems Drew has adapted to these new realities & may not have had much choice but to rely on these kind of recruits more than in the past.

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Not so much.

I agree we live in an age of overhype, so many athletes imagine they are pros already just waiting on their agent to sign them to be the next NBA king. Reality is a hard teacher on that score.

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Hate much? Ja'Kobe and Miro are both extremely intelligent, informed young men. They are not delusional or overhyped. If leaving after 1 year is in their career best interest, we should all support their decision.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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historian said:

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Anyone think next season's freshmen will be around for more than one year?

After last year it seems one and done is going to be more common. This should be expected after the natty & in the new portal era with NIL. It seems Drew has adapted to these new realities & may not have had much choice but to rely on these kind of recruits more than in the past.

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Not so much.

I agree we live in an age of overhype, so many athletes imagine they are pros already just waiting on their agent to sign them to be the next NBA king. Reality is a hard teacher on that score.

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Hate much? Ja'Kobe and Miro are both extremely intelligent, informed young men. They are not delusional or overhyped. If leaving after 1 year is in their career best interest, we should all support their decision.

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Not hating at all. But just being talented does not make you ready for the pros.

I don't have a problem with a player doing whatever is in his best interests. Problem is that 19-year-olds don't generally have a well-honed sense of judgment, delayed gratification, or long horizon thinking.

Some coaches and teams look out for the kid's best interests. A lot do not, however.

I'd submit that 2 years with Drew is life experience that adds real value to a player's later success, at multiple levels. Again, not saying a kid can't go if/when he thinks it's time, but Drew has created a place where players are offered much more than a token place to go before the pros.

Do you not think Drew knows these players' draft status before recruiting and signing them?

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Do you not think Drew knows these players' draft status before recruiting and signing them?

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I know he talked with them. I also know that plans sometimes change.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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historian said:

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Anyone think next season's freshmen will be around for more than one year?

After last year it seems one and done is going to be more common. This should be expected after the natty & in the new portal era with NIL. It seems Drew has adapted to these new realities & may not have had much choice but to rely on these kind of recruits more than in the past.

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Not so much.

I agree we live in an age of overhype, so many athletes imagine they are pros already just waiting on their agent to sign them to be the next NBA king. Reality is a hard teacher on that score.

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Hate much? Ja'Kobe and Miro are both extremely intelligent, informed young men. They are not delusional or overhyped. If leaving after 1 year is in their career best interest, we should all support their decision.

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The issue isn't the ones who are actually good enough to be taken in the first round of the NBA draft (especially the lottery) and prove it in their one year of college ball.

The issue is the dozens who are told they are that good as high school/AAU stars who leave after a year of college to be a second-round pick or go undrafted. Those players don't have NBA careers. They bounce between the G League and the end of an NBA bench for three years and finish their playing days in obscurity overseas.

If this system were a true meritocracy, no one would have a problem with it. I doubt anyone here had any issue whatsoever with Jeremy Sochan leaving after earning his way into the lottery with an outstanding freshman season. It's the guys who come with premature hype and buy into it that go to college for one year, are slightly above average players and leave without providing anything of note to the universities they "played school" at for a year.

It's not those players' fault. It's the system. AAU ball is a slimy/dirty business that makes woefully incomplete players like Deuce Bello think they're special and immature players like Quincy Miller, Perry Jones and Kendall Brown leave early for an NBA "career" that won't see a second contract.

Draft status fluctuates. Thinking Drew knows a kid is going in a certain spot before they even hit campus is probably not realistic. George should and will leave. To counter that Brown and to go wayyy back Miller should have stayed and it was fairly obvious. Both were heavily influenced by agents telling them they were going much higher than what was a reality.

I wasn't talking Quincy Miller or Perry Jones. Oldbear made a sweeping, insulting comment regarding next season which was directed at Miro and Ja'Kobe. Those are 2 kids with good heads on their shoulders.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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I wasn't talking Quincy Miller or Perry Jones. Oldbear made a sweeping, insulting comment regarding next season which was directed at Miro and Ja'Kobe. Those are 2 kids with good heads on their shoulders.

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It was only insulting if you took it that way. And I think you're the only one who did.

I gotta be honest, like Bear2 said I don't see anything he said as insulting towards Walter or Little

"I agree we live in an age of overhype, so many athletes imagine they are pros already just waiting on their agent to sign them to be the next NBA king. Reality is a hard teacher on that score."

Extremely provacative and insulting. But yeah, I guess just me.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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"I agree we live in an age of overhype, so many athletes imagine they are pros already just waiting on their agent to sign them to be the next NBA king. Reality is a hard teacher on that score."

Extremely provacative and insulting. But yeah, I guess just me.

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It is just you. What he said is 100 percent true.

A lot of high school prospects are overhyped and make bad decisions based on that hype that negatively impact the rest of their lives/earning power.

We see it literally every year, and we'll see it more once the one-and-done rule is revoked.

bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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"I agree we live in an age of overhype, so many athletes imagine they are pros already just waiting on their agent to sign them to be the next NBA king. Reality is a hard teacher on that score."

Extremely provacative and insulting. But yeah, I guess just me.

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It is just you. What he said is 100 percent true.

A lot of high school prospects are overhyped and make bad decisions based on that hype that negatively impact the rest of their lives/earning power.

We see it literally every year, and we'll see it more once the one-and-done rule is revoked.

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His statement was made in direct response to this question: "Anyone think next season's freshmen will be around for more than one year?"

Next year's freshman are Miro and Ja'Kobe.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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"I agree we live in an age of overhype, so many athletes imagine they are pros already just waiting on their agent to sign them to be the next NBA king. Reality is a hard teacher on that score."

Extremely provacative and insulting. But yeah, I guess just me.

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It is just you. What he said is 100 percent true.

A lot of high school prospects are overhyped and make bad decisions based on that hype that negatively impact the rest of their lives/earning power.

We see it literally every year, and we'll see it more once the one-and-done rule is revoked.

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His statement was made in direct response to this question: "Anyone think next season's freshmen will be around for more than one year?"

Next year's freshman are Miro and Ja'Kobe.

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He said "Not so much" as a response to that question.

I took the second paragraph to be more of a general statement on one-and-done talent. I think it's likely you're the only one who didn't.

A lot of good, smart kids have made terrible decisions based on draft projections made before their first college game. We had one last year in Kendall Brown. Suggesting that Miro and Ja'Kobe could be swayed by the same temptation is not an insult.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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I wasn't talking Quincy Miller or Perry Jones. Oldbear made a sweeping, insulting comment regarding next season which was directed at Miro and Ja'Kobe. Those are 2 kids with good heads on their shoulders.

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Never said that, nothing at all like that.

You are looking for a reason to throw a rant, son.

Pick a better one.

Oldbear83 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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I wasn't talking Quincy Miller or Perry Jones. Oldbear made a sweeping, insulting comment regarding next season which was directed at Miro and Ja'Kobe. Those are 2 kids with good heads on their shoulders.

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Never said that, nothing at all like that.

You are looking for a reason to throw a rant, son.

Pick a better one

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I am not your son. If you would like to discuss in person, send me a PM and let's meet up.

I think almost everyone here wants our players to have a long, successful career.

First, it's the decent thing.

Second, they reflect well on Baylor even if they are here just a year then go on to a great career.

All I am saying is that Drew is a coach who seriously works for a player's long term interests. He would rather lose games this year than misuse a player for a few wins or a deeper Tournament run.

W/o naming names, there are a number of high-profile coaches who don't do that.

So while it's a player's right to declare for the NBA or transfer out, it's wise to make use of a quality coach who will help you get better for the long term.

A lot of fans cheer Drew because he wins. I cheer him because of how he brings up his young men.

KB was a first round projection up until the end. It didn't go well for him, but can't fault his decision-making in the process.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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KB was a first round projection up until the end. It didn't go well for him, but can't fault his decision-making in the process.

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No one who watched Brown closely at Baylor last year thought he was going in the first round of the NBA draft. Because of his offensive shortcomings, he had no good comps for an impact NBA player. He's a great athlete, but everyone in the NBA is. So that leaves his future as a 3-and-D guy with no reliable outside shot.

I told my Baylor fan text chain midway through the season that Sochan would be drafted higher and they laughed at me ... until late in conference play when the re-evals started pouring in.

Brown should have returned to Baylor for a second year. And anyone with his best interests at heart should have told him that.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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I wasn't talking Quincy Miller or Perry Jones. Oldbear made a sweeping, insulting comment regarding next season which was directed at Miro and Ja'Kobe. Those are 2 kids with good heads on their shoulders.

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Never said that, nothing at all like that.

You are looking for a reason to throw a rant, son.

Pick a better one

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I am not your son. If you would like to discuss in person, send me a PM and let's meet up.

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I am not your father, I was trying to remind you that some of us have been watching this sport long enough to have a deeper perspective.

There are insulting words to use in a conversation. "Son" is not usually taken as one of them.

If you want examples of insulting words/phrases, especially the kind used by the mentally disabled, just pay attention to the UT fans tonight.

bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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KB was a first round projection up until the end. It didn't go well for him, but can't fault his decision-making in the process.

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No one who watched Brown closely at Baylor last year thought he was going in the first round of the NBA draft. Because of his offensive shortcomings, he had no good comps for an impact NBA player. He's a great athlete, but everyone in the NBA is. So that leaves his future as a 3-and-D guy with no reliable outside shot.

I told my Baylor fan text chain midway through the season that Sochan would be drafted higher and they laughed at me ... until late in conference play when the re-evals started pouring in.

Brown should have returned to Baylor for a second year. And anyone with his best interests at heart should have told him that.

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Again, I disagree. Kendall Brown was universally expected to go in the mid to late first round until around the middle of conference play last season. Was unfortunate he slid to the 2nd round, but I was not shocked by that outcome. No one expected him back for a second year.

However I do agree on Sochan. I was one of the first to say he would be one-and-done in mid November of 2021.

Fair enough

Crawfoso1973 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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KB was a first round projection up until the end. It didn't go well for him, but can't fault his decision-making in the process.

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No one who watched Brown closely at Baylor last year thought he was going in the first round of the NBA draft. Because of his offensive shortcomings, he had no good comps for an impact NBA player. He's a great athlete, but everyone in the NBA is. So that leaves his future as a 3-and-D guy with no reliable outside shot.

I told my Baylor fan text chain midway through the season that Sochan would be drafted higher and they laughed at me ... until late in conference play when the re-evals started pouring in.

Brown should have returned to Baylor for a second year. And anyone with his best interests at heart should have told him that.

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Again, I disagree. Kendall Brown was universally expected to go in the mid to late first round until around the middle of conference play last season. Was unfortunate he slid to the 2nd round, but I was not shocked by that outcome. No one expected him back for a second year.

However I do agree on Sochan. I was one of the first to say he would be one-and-done in mid November of 2021.

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The fact that no one expected Brown back for a second year is the problem Oldbear and I are describing. Anyone who watched Kendall play last year knew he wasn't ready for the NBA. I asked my buddies what impact NBA player he could be compared to, and no one had a good answer. That's a problem.

Now (when healthy), he's a 13th player on an NBA roster who will likely be out of the league in three years.

If he had stayed and worked his way into the first round, a team might at least feel some level of commitment to his development. But as a late-second round pick, he'll toil for three years and be replaced by the next shiny athlete like Quincy Miller was.

Pro sports is a cruel business. And once your clock starts, you have a very short period of time to prove your worth to a franchise. Starting that clock when you're as underdeveloped offensively as Brown was is a good way to become an all-star in Greece.

Kendall Brown had a favorable comp to Patrick Williams, former FSU Seminole and #4 overall pick in 2020 to the Bulls. Williams shot more consistently from deep, but all the other numbers were on par, if not in Kendall's favor.

That comp has aged poorly, however, as Williams hasn't progressed in his third season in the Association, and I think NBA teams were wary of spending high draft capital on a similar-type player. I'm still mystified about a few of the late first round players taken over Kendall, but I don't think his slide from lottery projections to the second round is that unjustified.

Mitch Henessey said:

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Kendall Brown had a favorable comp to Patrick Williams, former FSU Seminole and #4 overall pick in 2020 to the Bulls. Williams shot more consistently from deep, but all the other numbers were on par, if not in Kendall's favor.

That comp has aged poorly, however, as Williams hasn't progressed in his third season in the Association, and I think NBA teams were wary of spending high draft capital on a similar-type player. I'm still mystified about a few of the late first round players taken over Kendall, but I don't think his slide from lottery projections to the second round is that unjustified.

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His slide just shows that most NBA franchises viewed him as a JAG. From about the 20th pick through the end of the draft, everyone is a lottery ticket. No one is expecting impact from those spots. It's just pick and hope your talent evaluation is better than everyone else's.

That Kendall dropped as far as he did, though, shows that the original projections were pretty much garbage. No one let's a lottery-caliber talent fall to 48th.

bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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Kendall Brown had a favorable comp to Patrick Williams, former FSU Seminole and #4 overall pick in 2020 to the Bulls. Williams shot more consistently from deep, but all the other numbers were on par, if not in Kendall's favor.

That comp has aged poorly, however, as Williams hasn't progressed in his third season in the Association, and I think NBA teams were wary of spending high draft capital on a similar-type player. I'm still mystified about a few of the late first round players taken over Kendall, but I don't think his slide from lottery projections to the second round is that unjustified.

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His slide just shows that most NBA franchises viewed him as a JAG. From about the 20th pick through the end of the draft, everyone is a lottery ticket. No one is expecting impact from those spots. It's just pick and hope your talent evaluation is better than everyone else's.

That Kendall dropped as far as he did shows that the original projections were pretty much garbage. No one let's a lottery-caliber talent fall to 48th.

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Fair or unfair, a lot of teams seemed to put a ton of weight into his performance in the NCAA tournament game against UNC. He had a poor game (there were reports that he was sick that came out after the game), but a lot of scouts viewed that as his inability to compete in a game with NBA-caliber athletes.

I don't dabble much in projections to the NBA level - I care far more about NCAA hoops than I do about the NBA - but I do agree that the NBA views him as JAG. There's a lot of elite athletes who play the wing but struggle with their shot from three. There must have been something scouts saw in his shot that led them to believe that his ceiling was a lot lower than his projection from high school pointed at.

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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Kendall Brown had a favorable comp to Patrick Williams, former FSU Seminole and #4 overall pick in 2020 to the Bulls. Williams shot more consistently from deep, but all the other numbers were on par, if not in Kendall's favor.

That comp has aged poorly, however, as Williams hasn't progressed in his third season in the Association, and I think NBA teams were wary of spending high draft capital on a similar-type player. I'm still mystified about a few of the late first round players taken over Kendall, but I don't think his slide from lottery projections to the second round is that unjustified.

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His slide just shows that most NBA franchises viewed him as a JAG. From about the 20th pick through the end of the draft, everyone is a lottery ticket. No one is expecting impact from those spots. It's just pick and hope your talent evaluation is better than everyone else's.

That Kendall dropped as far as he did shows that the original projections were pretty much garbage. No one let's a lottery-caliber talent fall to 48th.

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Fair or unfair, a lot of teams seemed to put a ton of weight into his performance in the NCAA tournament game against UNC. He had a poor game (there were reports that he was sick that came out after the game), but a lot of scouts viewed that as his inability to compete in a game with NBA-caliber athletes.

I don't dabble much in projections to the NBA level - I care far more about NCAA hoops than I do about the NBA - but I do agree that the NBA views him as JAG. There's a lot of elite athletes who play the wing but struggle with their shot from three. There must have been something scouts saw in his shot that led them to believe that his ceiling was a lot lower than his projection from high school pointed at.

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I think, contrary to what some want to believe, college performance matters.

This is the first time most of these guys have ever competed against grown men. It's easy to look good when you're the best athlete on the court (high school). It's much harder when everyone around you is an elite or near-elite athlete (college). And it's harder still when everyone around you is an an elite athlete with elite skill (NBA).

If you can't dominate at the college level, the odds of you dominating in the NBA are minuscule. And every team is looking in the first round for a potential impact player.

Thanks everyone for your input. I think I have a better understanding of the situation.

On a side note, it is a pleasure to see an adult conversation that is respectful & doesn't descend into 12 year old petty insults as is too often the case on these boards.