Bears2Canes said:
Even more so, I am astounded that grown ass adults have the time and energy to incessantly whine and moan about Rhule.
Get a grip, guys.
I'm not sure you understand how an internet football discussion forum works.
#SPREADorDEAD
13,702 Views |
114 Replies |
Last: 5 yr ago by HenryTheOctopus
I'm not sure you understand how an internet football discussion forum works.
BU MBA, Married to Baylor grad and have been going to every home game since 2012. So, yea...lots of money and time spent at Baylor.Prairie_Bear said:Doc Holliday said:Well, I think your response was painful to read.Bears2Canes said:This was really painful to read. You sound like a kid rallying up neighborhood children to conspire against their parents for a raise in allowance. Rhule has dedicated his life to football, and is paid millions of dollars to coach this team. Even in the face of his struggles as head coach, I'd follow him into the fire a million times out of a million before I'd respond to this entitled, whiny battle cry of yours. Get a different hobby man. This energy is better wasted elsewhere.Doc Holliday said:
We are Baylor. We have (had) a brand. It's fast paced football with freak athletes.
And it's being destroyed. Identity is something that many of us don't want to lose. It's what made going to the games so much fun..even if we were losing, it was amazing to watch. We lost so much during the scandal...but this is something we don't have to lose.
Using the QB as run threat, optionality, simplicity, space, and pace all confer advantages individually, it is the way specific pairs and groups of them interact and create synergies that is truly compelling. It's what brought greatness to Baylor.
LINK
We need to campaign against Rhule and have him dumb down his god awful complex playbook and bend the knee. If Gary Patterson could do it, so can Rhule. It also gives our players a chance to make something of themselves by being noticed.
Bring your signs, voice your opinion and get him on board with the decade old Baylor tradition.
Campaign!
#SPREADorDEAD
Just a heads up - no one says or positively responds to the word "synergy."
I pay thousands upon thousands of dollars to watch this team and I'm getting ripped off. We all are. We all pay Matt Rhule through donations, season tickets, absurd tuition for our children, merchandise and we stand by expecting at the very least...competence.
I don't know about you, but when I pay for something, I expect something in return.
This ain't a battle cry. It's an act of life support.
This it buddy. I hate to break it to all of you, but if we don't get our **** together before P5 CFB breaks down..we are going to the likes of CUSA and none of this will matter AT ALL.
And you'll be wishing your ass said something.
Why do you keep saying "we", I thought you said you went to some UT off-shoot in Dallas? You are nothing but a career message board/reddit troll and don't speak for real Baylor fans.
So if you think that disqualifies me from being a fan then So be it.
The top 10 in plays per minute in 2017 were:MidWestBear2010 said:He's not wrong, you are. Snaps per game don't tell the whole story. Snaps per time of possession is what tempo is. People like you just don't get it and never will.bear2be2 said:Dude, you're wrong. Give it up.Doc Holliday said:If we ran the exact same offense as Ohio State down to the minor details...what sets us apart from them?bear2be2 said:Says who? The best spread teams are going away from the tempo you so value.Doc Holliday said:The epitome of modern spread is fast paced offense. No on thinks slow when they think spread.bear2be2 said:What Patterson was running in the Mountain West and what Baylor is running currently are two completely different animals. And our current offense, while lacking a running game, is incredibly modern in its concepts.hodedofome said:
https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/gil-lebreton/article5154216.html
If TCU was ever going to get over the Big 12 hump, Patterson realized, it was going to have to have a souped-up offense that could answer the Air Raid sirens that were going off around the league.
"It was a very difficult decision for him (Patterson)," Cumbie said. "When he said, 'Well, I know you're going to have to practice this offense a certain way, and I'm going to let you guys do that,' right then I knew that he really was serious about it."
What Cumbie and Patterson knew was that no huddle in games means no huddles in practice.
The irony with this ridiculous thread is that we're already running the spread predominantly. We're just not using tempo as part of that.
So no, it's not ridiculous.
Also it's not as simple as using tempo.
Rhule's playbook is extremely complex and being taught to players who have never seen one in their life.
So difficult that a previous Heisman candidate (Jalen Hurd) struggles with it.
Scrap the playbook and let the players be athletes.
Ohio State, arguably the best offensive team in the country, averages 80 plays per game. We're averaging 75.5. Clemson is down from 78 plays during their national championship season to 69 this season.
The bottom line is you don't know what you're talking about. You just think that Briles ball means winning ball. Well, tell that to Tulsa or Syracuse or Texas while Sterlin Gilbert was there.
If having a playbook was bad, the 99 percent of teams that have them would abandon theirs. And if offensive tempo was a sure-fire recipe for success, you wouldn't find Wake Forest, Texas Tech, Syracuse, Missouri and Northwestern in the top five for plays per game.
The answer is Recruits.
We will NEVER recruit like Ohio State or Clemson. Ever.
You put us up against Ohio State and play exactly as they do...we lose every single time if you think we should adopt what they do.
So what do we do? Keep progressing with Rhule's philosophy even though you're not seeing an upward trend in progress?
You're going to have to tell me where you see us gaining progress.
Time? I don't buy it.
Houston, whose offense is run by a BRILES, is averaging 78.3 snaps per game this season. That's less than three per game more than us. Florida Atlantic averaged 73 snaps per game last season.
Extreme tempo is a fad, and one that did/does more harm than good for coaches not named Art Briles.
As for progress this season, our red zone offense has been elite (11 of 11, with 9 TDs), which is a positive after the dismal results we had in that area last year. We've also been much better at defending the pass.
There are still some major areas of deficiency also, but progress will likely be incremental until we improve our talent level on the lines, which will only be done through recruiting and development.
1. New Mexico State
2. Utah State
3. Syracuse
4. Arkansas State
5. Missouri
6. Indiana
7. San Jose State
8. Oklahoma State
9. Wake Forest
10. South Florida
In 2016 it was:
1. Missouri
2. Baylor
3. California
4. Texas
5. Oregon
6. Ole Miss
7. Tulsa
8. New Mexico State
9. Northern Illinois
10. Texas Tech
There is no correlation whatsoever between tempo and football success. Do some coaches use it effectively? Sure. But just as many don't. To act as though it's some magic bullet that turns bad teams good is simply false.
Briles spread did not work when he could not run, or receivers dropped passes. Catching the ball is not that hard when it hits you in the numbers or on both hands. We need execution not a scheme change
Originally BearTracks 🐻 on BF
We all agree execution needs to get better. Any idea how to do that?
Simplifying the game and increasing repetition in practice maybe?
Simplifying the game and increasing repetition in practice maybe?
People who rant and rave on college football message boards are the smartest football minds on the planet, sir.Quote:
After all, he undoubtedly knows more about how to run a football program than me, Doc, or any other poster in this forum. Get a grip, guys.
That stings, but true. My brother was in first class of quarter mile U. And I love Todd. Amazing miler, himself.
hodedofome said:
https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/gil-lebreton/article5154216.html
If TCU was ever going to get over the Big 12 hump, Patterson realized, it was going to have to have a souped-up offense that could answer the Air Raid sirens that were going off around the league.
"It was a very difficult decision for him (Patterson)," Cumbie said. "When he said, 'Well, I know you're going to have to practice this offense a certain way, and I'm going to let you guys do that,' right then I knew that he really was serious about it."
What Cumbie and Patterson knew was that no huddle in games means no huddles in practice.
Patterson hates losing so he'll play how he needs to in order to win.
Rhule is ok with losing on the way towards winning the right way (his way). I don't think his way will ever win here and nobody should after the first 15 games of his tenure, but that's why he'll never change.
Bears2Canes said:
Whether we like it or not, this is Baylor's current situation. Rhule will be leading this program for the next several seasons barring an unprecedented lack of progress. I am astounded by the sense of entitlement some of our fans have after a few short years of success under Briles.
Even more so, I am astounded that grown ass adults have the time and energy to incessantly whine and moan about Rhule. I can understand disapproval of the program's direction under CMR, but some of y'all are borderline obsessed with your hatred of the guy.
He was brought here to do the job the way that he knows how. I may not always like it, and I have my own frustrations, but I'm going to keep faith in the guy as long as he's the head coach. After all, he undoubtedly knows more about how to run a football program than me, Doc, or any other poster in this forum. Get a grip, guys.
Do you like and support every President's policies until he's out of the office?
Thought not. They're all better at politics than you but that doesn't mean you follow them blindly and ignore all rationality when assessing their performance. It's the same way with Rhule.
bear2be2 said:You and I have a fundamental disagreement on what "with this much talent" means. I look at this roster and see some skill talent on offense and two difference-makers on defense (James Lynch and Clay Johnston). I also see an offensive line that would struggle to get consistent push against most mid-level G5 teams.Doc Holliday said:ACU is throwing up 27 points on us in year 2. We've had plenty of time to get over that hurdle. 95% of all CFB coaches have overcome that hurdle with this much talent.bear2be2 said:Dude, you're wrong. Give it up.Doc Holliday said:If we ran the exact same offense as Ohio State down to the minor details...what sets us apart from them?bear2be2 said:Says who? The best spread teams are going away from the tempo you so value.Doc Holliday said:The epitome of modern spread is fast paced offense. No on thinks slow when they think spread.bear2be2 said:What Patterson was running in the Mountain West and what Baylor is running currently are two completely different animals. And our current offense, while lacking a running game, is incredibly modern in its concepts.hodedofome said:
https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/gil-lebreton/article5154216.html
If TCU was ever going to get over the Big 12 hump, Patterson realized, it was going to have to have a souped-up offense that could answer the Air Raid sirens that were going off around the league.
"It was a very difficult decision for him (Patterson)," Cumbie said. "When he said, 'Well, I know you're going to have to practice this offense a certain way, and I'm going to let you guys do that,' right then I knew that he really was serious about it."
What Cumbie and Patterson knew was that no huddle in games means no huddles in practice.
The irony with this ridiculous thread is that we're already running the spread predominantly. We're just not using tempo as part of that.
So no, it's not ridiculous.
Also it's not as simple as using tempo.
Rhule's playbook is extremely complex and being taught to players who have never seen one in their life.
So difficult that a previous Heisman candidate (Jalen Hurd) struggles with it.
Scrap the playbook and let the players be athletes.
Ohio State, arguably the best offensive team in the country, averages 80 plays per game. We're averaging 75.5. Clemson is down from 78 plays during their national championship season to 69 this season.
The bottom line is you don't know what you're talking about. You just think that Briles ball means winning ball. Well, tell that to Tulsa or Syracuse or Texas while Sterlin Gilbert was there.
If having a playbook was bad, the 99 percent of teams that have them would abandon theirs. And if offensive tempo was a sure-fire recipe for success, you wouldn't find Wake Forest, Texas Tech, Syracuse, Missouri and Northwestern in the top five for plays per game.
The answer is Recruits.
We will NEVER recruit like Ohio State or Clemson. Ever.
You put us up against Ohio State and play exactly as they do...we lose every single time if you think we should adopt what they do.
So what do we do? Keep progressing with Rhule's philosophy even though you're not seeing an upward trend in progress?
You're going to have to tell me where you see us gaining progress.
Time? I don't buy it.
Houston, whose offense is run by a BRILES, is averaging 78.3 snaps per game this season. That's less than three per game more than us. Florida Atlantic averaged 73 snaps per game last season.
Extreme tempo was a fad, and one that did/does more harm than good for coaches not named Art Briles.
So what gives? Why the absurd outlier?
What is Rhule doing wrong?
What is the process?
In other words, this team has problems that will only be fixed through recruiting and development, which both take more than 15 games to show up.
If we still look like this when our current freshmen and sophomores and juniors and seniors, I'll be right there with you suggesting a change at the top. But that's how programs are built, through a PROCESS of bringing in and developing players that understand and can execute your schemes. We're not there yet. Hopefully we will get there between now and 2020. If we don't, you'll get your new coach soon enough.
The problem with assessing the talent today is you're assessing it after they've failed with Rhule. We have 2 DLs that were better as freshman than they are currently as upper classmen. The OL would've been a lot better under Briles because we would've utilized what they're capable of doing well instead of forcing them to do something else. We've NEVER had elite talent on the OL, but we've had plenty perform at elite levels because of the coaching and scheme. The main problem I have with Rhule is that he refuses to play to his player's strengths and instead has them play the way his ideal team would be playing. That's now how college football works. There isn't a draft, and you have to replace 25% of your roster every year, therefore you have to scheme around your deficiencies and towards your strengths.
Ashley Hodge said:
are we not running a spread? Weird, I could have sworn it was a spread attack. Briles' offenses looked plenty pedestrian until 2011 (year 4) at Baylor.
Nice try, but that's dead wrong. In 2007 we averaged 18 points per game. The very next year (Art's FIRST year) we went up to 28. That's an immediate 55.6% improvement in points.
The offense was already good. Of course it got a lot better than that, but a good system is evident almost immediately. They don't take years to show fruit. If your argument is, "but it wasn't #1 in the country until 2011!" ok, true, but so what? It was obvious it was good by the second game and extremely obvious when we put up 45 on Washington State in game 3. For reference, in 2006 we scored 15 against WSU.
I'm tired of this, "but it took Art more than 2 years to have a good team" BS. He inherited a team that hadn't been to a bowl game in 14 years and the team was clearly better (and one win better) in year one. Anything else is just revisionist history created in order to pretend Rhule isn't a joke.
Bears2Canes said:This was really painful to read. You sound like a kid rallying up neighborhood children to conspire against their parents for a raise in allowance. Rhule has dedicated his life to football, and is paid millions of dollars to coach this team. Even in the face of his struggles as head coach, I'd follow him into the fire a million times out of a million before I'd respond to this entitled, whiny battle cry of yours. Get a different hobby man. This energy is better wasted elsewhere.Doc Holliday said:
We are Baylor. We have (had) a brand. It's fast paced football with freak athletes.
And it's being destroyed. Identity is something that many of us don't want to lose. It's what made going to the games so much fun..even if we were losing, it was amazing to watch. We lost so much during the scandal...but this is something we don't have to lose.
Using the QB as run threat, optionality, simplicity, space, and pace all confer advantages individually, it is the way specific pairs and groups of them interact and create synergies that is truly compelling. It's what brought greatness to Baylor.
LINK
We need to campaign against Rhule and have him dumb down his god awful complex playbook and bend the knee. If Gary Patterson could do it, so can Rhule. It also gives our players a chance to make something of themselves by being noticed.
Bring your signs, voice your opinion and get him on board with the decade old Baylor tradition.
Campaign!
#SPREADorDEAD
Just a heads up - no one says or positively responds to the word "synergy."
Why so committed to a hired hand? Like you said, "he is paid millions". That's not "proof of competence ".
Ashley Hodge
Joined:
Aug 23, 2016
Posts:
36,818
User Profile
Private Message
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Staff
That is one way to look at it. I do agree that we saw improvement immediately with Art Briles. And it is concerning that there are not more "signs of life" yet under Rhule.
But when we are criticizing Rhule for not running a spread (untrue) and not having any offense (stats say otherwise), then I think it is a reach.
Art's first 3 years, we had trouble running the football outside of RG3 running it a bunch and an occasional spark with Jay Finley. Would you not agree with that? I just think there are some memory issues at play here.
28 ppg in 2008 as you mentioned
21 ppg in 2009
31 ppg in 2010
And then it exploded from there.
Rhule's 1st year
34 ppg in 2017
40 ppg in 2018 (we will see how it finishes)
You could make an argument that Rhule faced better defenses in 2017 than Art faced in those earlier years. Some of the Big12 teams (TCU, Texas, Iowa State) play a lot better defense than they did at one time.
Our problems are not really on the offensive side of the ball other than we have to be able to establish a running game. We are passing it with better efficiency than Art's earlier teams did.
But when we are criticizing Rhule for not running a spread (untrue) and not having any offense (stats say otherwise), then I think it is a reach.
Art's first 3 years, we had trouble running the football outside of RG3 running it a bunch and an occasional spark with Jay Finley. Would you not agree with that? I just think there are some memory issues at play here.
28 ppg in 2008 as you mentioned
21 ppg in 2009
31 ppg in 2010
And then it exploded from there.
Rhule's 1st year
34 ppg in 2017
40 ppg in 2018 (we will see how it finishes)
You could make an argument that Rhule faced better defenses in 2017 than Art faced in those earlier years. Some of the Big12 teams (TCU, Texas, Iowa State) play a lot better defense than they did at one time.
Our problems are not really on the offensive side of the ball other than we have to be able to establish a running game. We are passing it with better efficiency than Art's earlier teams did.
hodedofome said:
https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/gil-lebreton/article5154216.html
If TCU was ever going to get over the Big 12 hump, Patterson realized, it was going to have to have a souped-up offense that could answer the Air Raid sirens that were going off around the league.
"It was a very difficult decision for him (Patterson)," Cumbie said. "When he said, 'Well, I know you're going to have to practice this offense a certain way, and I'm going to let you guys do that,' right then I knew that he really was serious about it."
What Cumbie and Patterson knew was that no huddle in games means no huddles in practice.
From talking to Froggy friends at the time, Patterson realized during the year they went 4-8, their second season the Big 12, that they had to adjust to the conference just to keep up. They needed mobile QBs with fast WRs for that quick strike capability.
Tiny Elvis said:
Harbour's destroyed Clyde Hart's legacy of Baylor being 400m U, so why is this a big deal?
We had some of the worst facilities compared to Texas A&M and others, according to a world class track and field guy who shall remain nameless.
bear2be2 said:The top 10 in plays per minute in 2017 were:MidWestBear2010 said:He's not wrong, you are. Snaps per game don't tell the whole story. Snaps per time of possession is what tempo is. People like you just don't get it and never will.bear2be2 said:Dude, you're wrong. Give it up.Doc Holliday said:If we ran the exact same offense as Ohio State down to the minor details...what sets us apart from them?bear2be2 said:Says who? The best spread teams are going away from the tempo you so value.Doc Holliday said:The epitome of modern spread is fast paced offense. No on thinks slow when they think spread.bear2be2 said:What Patterson was running in the Mountain West and what Baylor is running currently are two completely different animals. And our current offense, while lacking a running game, is incredibly modern in its concepts.hodedofome said:
https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/gil-lebreton/article5154216.html
If TCU was ever going to get over the Big 12 hump, Patterson realized, it was going to have to have a souped-up offense that could answer the Air Raid sirens that were going off around the league.
"It was a very difficult decision for him (Patterson)," Cumbie said. "When he said, 'Well, I know you're going to have to practice this offense a certain way, and I'm going to let you guys do that,' right then I knew that he really was serious about it."
What Cumbie and Patterson knew was that no huddle in games means no huddles in practice.
The irony with this ridiculous thread is that we're already running the spread predominantly. We're just not using tempo as part of that.
So no, it's not ridiculous.
Also it's not as simple as using tempo.
Rhule's playbook is extremely complex and being taught to players who have never seen one in their life.
So difficult that a previous Heisman candidate (Jalen Hurd) struggles with it.
Scrap the playbook and let the players be athletes.
Ohio State, arguably the best offensive team in the country, averages 80 plays per game. We're averaging 75.5. Clemson is down from 78 plays during their national championship season to 69 this season.
The bottom line is you don't know what you're talking about. You just think that Briles ball means winning ball. Well, tell that to Tulsa or Syracuse or Texas while Sterlin Gilbert was there.
If having a playbook was bad, the 99 percent of teams that have them would abandon theirs. And if offensive tempo was a sure-fire recipe for success, you wouldn't find Wake Forest, Texas Tech, Syracuse, Missouri and Northwestern in the top five for plays per game.
The answer is Recruits.
We will NEVER recruit like Ohio State or Clemson. Ever.
You put us up against Ohio State and play exactly as they do...we lose every single time if you think we should adopt what they do.
So what do we do? Keep progressing with Rhule's philosophy even though you're not seeing an upward trend in progress?
You're going to have to tell me where you see us gaining progress.
Time? I don't buy it.
Houston, whose offense is run by a BRILES, is averaging 78.3 snaps per game this season. That's less than three per game more than us. Florida Atlantic averaged 73 snaps per game last season.
Extreme tempo is a fad, and one that did/does more harm than good for coaches not named Art Briles.
As for progress this season, our red zone offense has been elite (11 of 11, with 9 TDs), which is a positive after the dismal results we had in that area last year. We've also been much better at defending the pass.
There are still some major areas of deficiency also, but progress will likely be incremental until we improve our talent level on the lines, which will only be done through recruiting and development.
1. New Mexico State
2. Utah State
3. Syracuse
4. Arkansas State
5. Missouri
6. Indiana
7. San Jose State
8. Oklahoma State
9. Wake Forest
10. South Florida
In 2016 it was:
1. Missouri
2. Baylor
3. California
4. Texas
5. Oregon
6. Ole Miss
7. Tulsa
8. New Mexico State
9. Northern Illinois
10. Texas Tech
There is no correlation whatsoever between tempo and football success. Do some coaches use it effectively? Sure. But just as many don't. To act as though it's some magic bullet that turns bad teams good is simply false.
It helps the appearance of an offense when you play in a league that didn't have a defensive player drafted until the 3rd round. FCS conference defenses did better in the draft.
In 2007, Baylor was 114 in the country in rushing yards per game.Ashley Hodge said:
That is one way to look at it. I do agree that we saw improvement immediately with Art Briles. And it is concerning that there are not more "signs of life" yet under Rhule.
But when we are criticizing Rhule for not running a spread (untrue) and not having any offense (stats say otherwise), then I think it is a reach.
Art's first 3 years, we had trouble running the football outside of RG3 running it a bunch and an occasional spark with Jay Finley. Would you not agree with that? I just think there are some memory issues at play here.
28 ppg in 2008 as you mentioned
21 ppg in 2009
31 ppg in 2010
And then it exploded from there.
Rhule's 1st year
34 ppg in 2017
40 ppg in 2018 (we will see how it finishes)
You could make an argument that Rhule faced better defenses in 2017 than Art faced in those earlier years. Some of the Big12 teams (TCU, Texas, Iowa State) play a lot better defense than they did at one time.
Our problems are not really on the offensive side of the ball other than we have to be able to establish a running game. We are passing it with better efficiency than Art's earlier teams did.
In 2008 (Art's first year), Baylor was 33 in the country in rushing yards per game.
2009 had Baylor lose easily their best player in RG3 and had Nick Florence start almost the entire season as a true freshman, when he was no where near ready. Something tells me that Baylor would not have struggled to score as they did that year with RG3 healthy all year.
Also, the Big 12 was MUCH better when Art started than it is today. Honestly trying to argue otherwise is a dead end. In 2008, the Big 12 South had 4 teams finish in the top 16, including 2 in the top 5. Baylor killed the only other bad team (A&M) in the Big 12 South that year. The 2008 Baylor team played against 2 teams with 8 wins, 2 teams with 9 wins and 4 more teams that finished with 10+ wins. Baylor today isn't playing anything near that kind of schedule.
I went to every home football game during the Roberts, Steele, Morriss era with the exception of the Saluki Sacrifice. The arguments of those opposed to a quick turnover of Rhule are the same as those who argued for patience with Steele. Needs to get his guys in, build it right, teach concepts (Steele had a PhD in X's and O's it was said and NFL experience), build depth on the lines, unfair to judge progress on only 15 games, needs to get rid of poisonious attitudes left by prior staff, etc. The internal improvement guys then are the advanced stats guys now.
It was the wrong then. It's likely wrong now.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
It was the wrong then. It's likely wrong now.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Illigitimus non carborundum
BUBear24 said:
All spread offenses rely on rhythm.
Idc if we ran the veer like Briles or Leach's air raid, going missed fg/fumble/punt/ missed fg will derail any offense's rhythm
Playing 2 QBs also messes up rhythm when one of them runs up tempo better than the other...or at least as up tempo as we've been this season which is nowhere near where we've been previously. Our defense is gonna be so gased when we get into conference play.
Ashley Hodge
Joined:
Aug 23, 2016
Posts:
36,818
User Profile
Private Message
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Staff
the OL was pretty bad in 2009. We rushed for 100 yards per game. We rushed for 117 per game last year to put that in perspective. Jason Smith and JD Walton were good Big12 OL in 2008. I think Walton was hurt in 2009? Can't remember but of course Jason Smith was gone.ColomboLQ said:In 2007, Baylor was 114 in the country in rushing yards per game.Ashley Hodge said:
That is one way to look at it. I do agree that we saw improvement immediately with Art Briles. And it is concerning that there are not more "signs of life" yet under Rhule.
But when we are criticizing Rhule for not running a spread (untrue) and not having any offense (stats say otherwise), then I think it is a reach.
Art's first 3 years, we had trouble running the football outside of RG3 running it a bunch and an occasional spark with Jay Finley. Would you not agree with that? I just think there are some memory issues at play here.
28 ppg in 2008 as you mentioned
21 ppg in 2009
31 ppg in 2010
And then it exploded from there.
Rhule's 1st year
34 ppg in 2017
40 ppg in 2018 (we will see how it finishes)
You could make an argument that Rhule faced better defenses in 2017 than Art faced in those earlier years. Some of the Big12 teams (TCU, Texas, Iowa State) play a lot better defense than they did at one time.
Our problems are not really on the offensive side of the ball other than we have to be able to establish a running game. We are passing it with better efficiency than Art's earlier teams did.
In 2008 (Art's first year), Baylor was 33 in the country in rushing yards per game.
2009 had Baylor lose easily their best player in RG3 and had Nick Florence start almost the entire season as a true freshman, when he was no where near ready. Something tells me that Baylor would not have struggled to score as they did that year with RG3 healthy all year.
Also, the Big 12 was MUCH better when Art started than it is today. Honestly trying to argue otherwise is a dead end. In 2008, the Big 12 South had 4 teams finish in the top 16, including 2 in the top 5. Baylor killed the only other bad team (A&M) in the Big 12 South that year. The 2008 Baylor team played against 2 teams with 8 wins, 2 teams with 9 wins and 4 more teams that finished with 10+ wins. Baylor today isn't playing anything near that kind of schedule.
You are right about the Big12 south being good. But those teams were built on offense. According to this site, the highest ranked defense in the Big12 was...
Texas #43
Nebraska #53
Colorado #74
Oklahoma #81
Texas Tech #82
Kansas #84
Baylor #95
Missouri #98
Oklahoma St #102
Texas A&M #114
Iowa State #115
Kansas State #120
https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/opponent-yards-per-game?date=2009-01-09
If you look at last year, the Big12's defenses were ranked:
TCU #28
Iowa St #37
Texas #39
Oklahoma #60
OSU #73
KSU #87
Baylor #100
Texas Tech #106
West Virginia #109
Kansas #122
So I stand by my original statement that the defenses were better last year than in 2008. We had 3 top 40 defenses last year in the conference compared to zero in 2008.
Took 3 years to have a winning team, that's what seems to matter to most people.Krieg said:Ashley Hodge said:
are we not running a spread? Weird, I could have sworn it was a spread attack. Briles' offenses looked plenty pedestrian until 2011 (year 4) at Baylor.
Nice try, but that's dead wrong. In 2007 we averaged 18 points per game. The very next year (Art's FIRST year) we went up to 28. That's an immediate 55.6% improvement in points.
The offense was already good. Of course it got a lot better than that, but a good system is evident almost immediately. They don't take years to show fruit. If your argument is, "but it wasn't #1 in the country until 2011!" ok, true, but so what? It was obvious it was good by the second game and extremely obvious when we put up 45 on Washington State in game 3. For reference, in 2006 we scored 15 against WSU.
I'm tired of this, "but it took Art more than 2 years to have a good team" BS. He inherited a team that hadn't been to a bowl game in 14 years and the team was clearly better (and one win better) in year one. Anything else is just revisionist history created in order to pretend Rhule isn't a joke.
Bro, from your same site, the Big 12 in 2008 had 5 of the top 9 and 6 of the top 12 offenses in the country. I think that might be a reason some of the defensive stats might have been skewed. Last year's Big 12 defenses didn't have to face anything near that from Big 12 offenses. Like not even close.Ashley Hodge said:the OL was pretty bad in 2009. We rushed for 100 yards per game. We rushed for 117 per game last year to put that in perspective. Jason Smith and JD Walton were good Big12 OL in 2008. I think Walton was hurt in 2009? Can't remember but of course Jason Smith was gone.ColomboLQ said:In 2007, Baylor was 114 in the country in rushing yards per game.Ashley Hodge said:
That is one way to look at it. I do agree that we saw improvement immediately with Art Briles. And it is concerning that there are not more "signs of life" yet under Rhule.
But when we are criticizing Rhule for not running a spread (untrue) and not having any offense (stats say otherwise), then I think it is a reach.
Art's first 3 years, we had trouble running the football outside of RG3 running it a bunch and an occasional spark with Jay Finley. Would you not agree with that? I just think there are some memory issues at play here.
28 ppg in 2008 as you mentioned
21 ppg in 2009
31 ppg in 2010
And then it exploded from there.
Rhule's 1st year
34 ppg in 2017
40 ppg in 2018 (we will see how it finishes)
You could make an argument that Rhule faced better defenses in 2017 than Art faced in those earlier years. Some of the Big12 teams (TCU, Texas, Iowa State) play a lot better defense than they did at one time.
Our problems are not really on the offensive side of the ball other than we have to be able to establish a running game. We are passing it with better efficiency than Art's earlier teams did.
In 2008 (Art's first year), Baylor was 33 in the country in rushing yards per game.
2009 had Baylor lose easily their best player in RG3 and had Nick Florence start almost the entire season as a true freshman, when he was no where near ready. Something tells me that Baylor would not have struggled to score as they did that year with RG3 healthy all year.
Also, the Big 12 was MUCH better when Art started than it is today. Honestly trying to argue otherwise is a dead end. In 2008, the Big 12 South had 4 teams finish in the top 16, including 2 in the top 5. Baylor killed the only other bad team (A&M) in the Big 12 South that year. The 2008 Baylor team played against 2 teams with 8 wins, 2 teams with 9 wins and 4 more teams that finished with 10+ wins. Baylor today isn't playing anything near that kind of schedule.
You are right about the Big12 south being good. But those teams were built on offense. According to this site, the highest ranked defense in the Big12 was...
Texas #43
Nebraska #53
Colorado #74
Oklahoma #81
Texas Tech #82
Kansas #84
Baylor #95
Missouri #98
Oklahoma St #102
Texas A&M #114
Iowa State #115
Kansas State #120
https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/opponent-yards-per-game?date=2009-01-09
If you look at last year, the Big12's defenses were ranked:
TCU #28
Iowa St #37
Texas #39
Oklahoma #60
OSU #73
KSU #87
Baylor #100
Texas Tech #106
West Virginia #109
Kansas #122
So I stand by my original statement that the defenses were better last year than in 2008. We had 3 top 40 defenses last year in the conference compared to zero in 2008.
Ashley Hodge
Joined:
Aug 23, 2016
Posts:
36,818
User Profile
Private Message
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Staff
well the Big12 had 3 of the top 10 offenses last year. Not like the league stopped playing offense.
I'm looking at the stats. I see OU and Ok St 1 and 2. I don't see the 3rd. The next one I see is Tech at 17. What am I missing?Ashley Hodge said:
well the Big12 had 3 of the top 10 offenses last year. Not like the league stopped playing offense.
Ashley Hodge said:
That is one way to look at it. I do agree that we saw improvement immediately with Art Briles. And it is concerning that there are not more "signs of life" yet under Rhule.
But when we are criticizing Rhule for not running a spread (untrue) and not having any offense (stats say otherwise), then I think it is a reach.
Art's first 3 years, we had trouble running the football outside of RG3 running it a bunch and an occasional spark with Jay Finley. Would you not agree with that? I just think there are some memory issues at play here.
28 ppg in 2008 as you mentioned
21 ppg in 2009
31 ppg in 2010
And then it exploded from there.
Rhule's 1st year
34 ppg in 2017
40 ppg in 2018 (we will see how it finishes)
You could make an argument that Rhule faced better defenses in 2017 than Art faced in those earlier years. Some of the Big12 teams (TCU, Texas, Iowa State) play a lot better defense than they did at one time.
Our problems are not really on the offensive side of the ball other than we have to be able to establish a running game. We are passing it with better efficiency than Art's earlier teams did.
All I know is that with Art we were clearly better in year one and with Rhule we're significantly worse than beforehand he got here in year two. Efficiency stats are nice and all, but we're an awful football team right now because we're not being put in the best place to succeed by our coaches.
Nobody is asking for 10-2 this year. What we should all be asking for is an offense with a single QB, an offense with 11 players on the same page when a play is called, and a defense that knows its assignments on every down. That's a VERY low bar to hit and it should've been cleared in week 1 of 2017 but here we are heading into game 4 in 2018 and we're a mess.
As for Art's start, sure we weren't great on the ground at first. He inherited almost nothing and still won 4 games, though, so who cares? Not that I think it's a good idea, but I'd be ok with Rhule cutting every RB if we'd win some freaking games. Heck, if he wants to run the ball don't audible to a run right at their strong side that was over stacked next time.
We're really not asking for much, we're just asking for a really basic level of competence on the coaching side that's lacking. The above combined with the random timeouts and slow play calling make it look like he just started coaching this year. It's unacceptable.
Ashley Hodge said:the OL was pretty bad in 2009. We rushed for 100 yards per game. We rushed for 117 per game last year to put that in perspective. Jason Smith and JD Walton were good Big12 OL in 2008. I think Walton was hurt in 2009? Can't remember but of course Jason Smith was gone.ColomboLQ said:In 2007, Baylor was 114 in the country in rushing yards per game.Ashley Hodge said:
That is one way to look at it. I do agree that we saw improvement immediately with Art Briles. And it is concerning that there are not more "signs of life" yet under Rhule.
But when we are criticizing Rhule for not running a spread (untrue) and not having any offense (stats say otherwise), then I think it is a reach.
Art's first 3 years, we had trouble running the football outside of RG3 running it a bunch and an occasional spark with Jay Finley. Would you not agree with that? I just think there are some memory issues at play here.
28 ppg in 2008 as you mentioned
21 ppg in 2009
31 ppg in 2010
And then it exploded from there.
Rhule's 1st year
34 ppg in 2017
40 ppg in 2018 (we will see how it finishes)
You could make an argument that Rhule faced better defenses in 2017 than Art faced in those earlier years. Some of the Big12 teams (TCU, Texas, Iowa State) play a lot better defense than they did at one time.
Our problems are not really on the offensive side of the ball other than we have to be able to establish a running game. We are passing it with better efficiency than Art's earlier teams did.
In 2008 (Art's first year), Baylor was 33 in the country in rushing yards per game.
2009 had Baylor lose easily their best player in RG3 and had Nick Florence start almost the entire season as a true freshman, when he was no where near ready. Something tells me that Baylor would not have struggled to score as they did that year with RG3 healthy all year.
Also, the Big 12 was MUCH better when Art started than it is today. Honestly trying to argue otherwise is a dead end. In 2008, the Big 12 South had 4 teams finish in the top 16, including 2 in the top 5. Baylor killed the only other bad team (A&M) in the Big 12 South that year. The 2008 Baylor team played against 2 teams with 8 wins, 2 teams with 9 wins and 4 more teams that finished with 10+ wins. Baylor today isn't playing anything near that kind of schedule.
You are right about the Big12 south being good. But those teams were built on offense. According to this site, the highest ranked defense in the Big12 was...
Texas #43
Nebraska #53
Colorado #74
Oklahoma #81
Texas Tech #82
Kansas #84
Baylor #95
Missouri #98
Oklahoma St #102
Texas A&M #114
Iowa State #115
Kansas State #120
https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/opponent-yards-per-game?date=2009-01-09
If you look at last year, the Big12's defenses were ranked:
TCU #28
Iowa St #37
Texas #39
Oklahoma #60
OSU #73
KSU #87
Baylor #100
Texas Tech #106
West Virginia #109
Kansas #122
So I stand by my original statement that the defenses were better last year than in 2008. We had 3 top 40 defenses last year in the conference compared to zero in 2008.
Wait, you're using efficiency stats to show that our current offense that sucks doesn't, but you're using total yards to show that today's defenses are better than the ones from the past?
This looks like an agenda at play.
Doc Holliday said:Offense if your best defense, especially when you have no defense.Ashley Hodge said:
are we not running a spread? Weird, I could have sworn it was a spread attack. Briles' offenses looked plenty pedestrian until 2011 (year 3) at Baylor.
Offense isn't really our problem. It could be better but it has been good enough especially when you consider our offensive line is not opening holes for a running attack yet. We need to get better on defense fast.
We only put up 27 on Duke, how does that translate to wins in conference if we have a terrible defense?
The offense scored 20.
I don't blame the OP for his frustration. He does make some pretty obvious points. He is just a bit premature. If (when) we beat basketball juggernaut KU by 21, then this thread becomes moot.
Krieg said:Ashley Hodge said:the OL was pretty bad in 2009. We rushed for 100 yards per game. We rushed for 117 per game last year to put that in perspective. Jason Smith and JD Walton were good Big12 OL in 2008. I think Walton was hurt in 2009? Can't remember but of course Jason Smith was gone.ColomboLQ said:In 2007, Baylor was 114 in the country in rushing yards per game.Ashley Hodge said:
That is one way to look at it. I do agree that we saw improvement immediately with Art Briles. And it is concerning that there are not more "signs of life" yet under Rhule.
But when we are criticizing Rhule for not running a spread (untrue) and not having any offense (stats say otherwise), then I think it is a reach.
Art's first 3 years, we had trouble running the football outside of RG3 running it a bunch and an occasional spark with Jay Finley. Would you not agree with that? I just think there are some memory issues at play here.
28 ppg in 2008 as you mentioned
21 ppg in 2009
31 ppg in 2010
And then it exploded from there.
Rhule's 1st year
34 ppg in 2017
40 ppg in 2018 (we will see how it finishes)
You could make an argument that Rhule faced better defenses in 2017 than Art faced in those earlier years. Some of the Big12 teams (TCU, Texas, Iowa State) play a lot better defense than they did at one time.
Our problems are not really on the offensive side of the ball other than we have to be able to establish a running game. We are passing it with better efficiency than Art's earlier teams did.
In 2008 (Art's first year), Baylor was 33 in the country in rushing yards per game.
2009 had Baylor lose easily their best player in RG3 and had Nick Florence start almost the entire season as a true freshman, when he was no where near ready. Something tells me that Baylor would not have struggled to score as they did that year with RG3 healthy all year.
Also, the Big 12 was MUCH better when Art started than it is today. Honestly trying to argue otherwise is a dead end. In 2008, the Big 12 South had 4 teams finish in the top 16, including 2 in the top 5. Baylor killed the only other bad team (A&M) in the Big 12 South that year. The 2008 Baylor team played against 2 teams with 8 wins, 2 teams with 9 wins and 4 more teams that finished with 10+ wins. Baylor today isn't playing anything near that kind of schedule.
You are right about the Big12 south being good. But those teams were built on offense. According to this site, the highest ranked defense in the Big12 was...
Texas #43
Nebraska #53
Colorado #74
Oklahoma #81
Texas Tech #82
Kansas #84
Baylor #95
Missouri #98
Oklahoma St #102
Texas A&M #114
Iowa State #115
Kansas State #120
https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/opponent-yards-per-game?date=2009-01-09
If you look at last year, the Big12's defenses were ranked:
TCU #28
Iowa St #37
Texas #39
Oklahoma #60
OSU #73
KSU #87
Baylor #100
Texas Tech #106
West Virginia #109
Kansas #122
So I stand by my original statement that the defenses were better last year than in 2008. We had 3 top 40 defenses last year in the conference compared to zero in 2008.
Wait, you're using efficiency stats to show that our current offense that sucks doesn't, but you're using total yards to show that today's defenses are better than the ones from the past?
This looks like an agenda at play.
Unless you consider the fact that Baylor's high scoring offense was no where to be found last year, it is little wonder that the conference defensive ranking went up.
Ashley Hodge
Joined:
Aug 23, 2016
Posts:
36,818
User Profile
Private Message
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Staff
no agenda except I want to see Baylor do well. Just trying to reason that offensive production through the air is not our biggest issue and that we do play a spread type of system.
I was using total yardage on both sides of those stats. Total points wouldn't yield a much different conclusion. Bottom line is if we get better with the running game, we will have a dynamic offense. And if we also get better on defense, we will have a good team. We have good QBs in the pipeline. I also think we have good OL in the pipeline, just not many of them grown up yet.
Of course I want Rhule to succeed. It is what is best for Baylor's interest. The true Baylor fans on this forum get that. The trolls from other schools or Art Briles only loyalists will not see it that way. They only desire to breed and fuel more chaos.
He's getting paid a lot of money and he is expected to produce now for the money he is getting paid. He's going to get at least 3 years (which he should) no matter what. Let it play out. But don't claim he is stubborn and not running a wide open offense. That is not accurate.
I was using total yardage on both sides of those stats. Total points wouldn't yield a much different conclusion. Bottom line is if we get better with the running game, we will have a dynamic offense. And if we also get better on defense, we will have a good team. We have good QBs in the pipeline. I also think we have good OL in the pipeline, just not many of them grown up yet.
Of course I want Rhule to succeed. It is what is best for Baylor's interest. The true Baylor fans on this forum get that. The trolls from other schools or Art Briles only loyalists will not see it that way. They only desire to breed and fuel more chaos.
He's getting paid a lot of money and he is expected to produce now for the money he is getting paid. He's going to get at least 3 years (which he should) no matter what. Let it play out. But don't claim he is stubborn and not running a wide open offense. That is not accurate.
I want Rhule to succeed. I'm gonna stick it out as long as I can stand it, but I definitely see a lot of room for criticism and doubt.
Maybe his spiel wouldn't sound so bad when he's winning. We've never seen that from him here, so...
Maybe his spiel wouldn't sound so bad when he's winning. We've never seen that from him here, so...
"The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool."
And Ash is right, when you make an honest list of the things that suck the worst about Baylor's play so far this year, quarterback play and the passing game isn't even in the top 10...or the bottom 10, however you look at it.
"The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool."
Ashley Hodge said:
no agenda except I want to see Baylor do well. Just trying to reason that offensive production through the air is not our biggest issue and that we do play a spread type of system.
I was using total yardage on both sides of those stats. Total points wouldn't yield a much different conclusion. Bottom line is if we get better with the running game, we will have a dynamic offense. And if we also get better on defense, we will have a good team. We have good QBs in the pipeline. I also think we have good OL in the pipeline, just not many of them grown up yet.
Of course I want Rhule to succeed. It is what is best for Baylor's interest. The true Baylor fans on this forum get that. The trolls from other schools or Art Briles only loyalists will not see it that way. They only desire to breed and fuel more chaos.
He's getting paid a lot of money and he is expected to produce now for the money he is getting paid. He's going to get at least 3 years (which he should) no matter what. Let it play out. But don't claim he is stubborn and not running a wide open offense. That is not accurate.
That is a terrible way to run a business. Can you imagine if any other job worked like that. "You are expected to do your job now, but if you don't it's ok we will still give you millions for a few more years and then check back in with you." We are idiots! Conference USA here we come.
Ashley Hodge said:
no agenda except I want to see Baylor do well. Just trying to reason that offensive production through the air is not our biggest issue and that we do play a spread type of system.
I was using total yardage on both sides of those stats. Total points wouldn't yield a much different conclusion. Bottom line is if we get better with the running game, we will have a dynamic offense. And if we also get better on defense, we will have a good team. We have good QBs in the pipeline. I also think we have good OL in the pipeline, just not many of them grown up yet.
Of course I want Rhule to succeed. It is what is best for Baylor's interest. The true Baylor fans on this forum get that. The trolls from other schools or Art Briles only loyalists will not see it that way. They only desire to breed and fuel more chaos.
He's getting paid a lot of money and he is expected to produce now for the money he is getting paid. He's going to get at least 3 years (which he should) no matter what. Let it play out. But don't claim he is stubborn and not running a wide open offense. That is not accurate.
Excellent post. There are glaring weaknesses to what the offense is now with a porous o-line and a run game that needs to be better. Those saying we don't run the spread haven't been paying attention. We just need those other parts you mentioned to start clicking. Last year we were mid pack in the Big 12 in total offense, right behind the "Well Gary Patterson changed" TCU offense. It can and should succeed in the Big 12, it just depends how long those missing parts take to come together.
I think many are confusing the terminology spread with up-tempo, it's the tempo that seems to be lacking.Bear8084 said:Ashley Hodge said:
no agenda except I want to see Baylor do well. Just trying to reason that offensive production through the air is not our biggest issue and that we do play a spread type of system.
I was using total yardage on both sides of those stats. Total points wouldn't yield a much different conclusion. Bottom line is if we get better with the running game, we will have a dynamic offense. And if we also get better on defense, we will have a good team. We have good QBs in the pipeline. I also think we have good OL in the pipeline, just not many of them grown up yet.
Of course I want Rhule to succeed. It is what is best for Baylor's interest. The true Baylor fans on this forum get that. The trolls from other schools or Art Briles only loyalists will not see it that way. They only desire to breed and fuel more chaos.
He's getting paid a lot of money and he is expected to produce now for the money he is getting paid. He's going to get at least 3 years (which he should) no matter what. Let it play out. But don't claim he is stubborn and not running a wide open offense. That is not accurate.
Excellent post. There are glaring weaknesses to what the offense is now with a porous o-line and a run game that needs to be better. Those saying we don't run the spread haven't been paying attention. We just need those other parts you mentioned to start clicking. Last year we were mid pack in the Big 12 in total offense, right behind the "Well Gary Patterson changed" TCU offense. It can and should succeed in the Big 12, it just depends how long those missing parts take to come together.
MilliVanilli said:I think many are confusing the terminology spread with up-tempo, it's the tempo that seems to be lacking.Bear8084 said:Ashley Hodge said:
no agenda except I want to see Baylor do well. Just trying to reason that offensive production through the air is not our biggest issue and that we do play a spread type of system.
I was using total yardage on both sides of those stats. Total points wouldn't yield a much different conclusion. Bottom line is if we get better with the running game, we will have a dynamic offense. And if we also get better on defense, we will have a good team. We have good QBs in the pipeline. I also think we have good OL in the pipeline, just not many of them grown up yet.
Of course I want Rhule to succeed. It is what is best for Baylor's interest. The true Baylor fans on this forum get that. The trolls from other schools or Art Briles only loyalists will not see it that way. They only desire to breed and fuel more chaos.
He's getting paid a lot of money and he is expected to produce now for the money he is getting paid. He's going to get at least 3 years (which he should) no matter what. Let it play out. But don't claim he is stubborn and not running a wide open offense. That is not accurate.
Excellent post. There are glaring weaknesses to what the offense is now with a porous o-line and a run game that needs to be better. Those saying we don't run the spread haven't been paying attention. We just need those other parts you mentioned to start clicking. Last year we were mid pack in the Big 12 in total offense, right behind the "Well Gary Patterson changed" TCU offense. It can and should succeed in the Big 12, it just depends how long those missing parts take to come together.
And that is a valid concern sure. There is some timing issues, but without the o-lind and run game playing like they need to is messes with the tempo and rhythm of everything.
Featured Stories
See All
In-Depth Preview: Baylor Is Set To Host the First Official Visits for the 2025 Class
by Grayson Grundhoefer
Program Reset: Post-Spring Attrition, Transfers & Recruiting
by Colt Barber
Jeremy Roach: Scouting Baylor's Next Point Guard
by Kendall Kaut
Emptying the Notebook: Schobel and Brown Decommit, Whatley is a Bear
by Grayson Grundhoefer
What Ashtyn Hawkins Can Be for Baylor Football in 2024
by Travis Roeder