It's been difficult vaccine conversations on going for Dave Aranda and Baylor

9,221 Views | 162 Replies | Last: 27 days ago by Amal Shuq-Up
gobears20
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Staff
Great Baylor Merchandise -> https://bit.ly/2M8DuHk
BellCountyBear
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Sounds like a rational approach to me.
coldhardtruth
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All this fence riding sounds great until we have to forfeit a game.
You best remember me my friend
I am the cold hard truth
-George Jones
Bearprof
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While I appreciate his mild-mannered approach, there is clear evidence now that the Delta Variant is redefining the COVID crisis in our country, especially for those individuals who are not vaccinated. I hope the conferences give an automatic L for those teams who can't play in a given week due to COVID infections. It's past time to stop messing around with this virus and have enough vaccinations to have some semblance of herd Immunity. Otherwise, the virus will continue to mutate due to, essentially, a certain political thought rather than relying on science. We have met the enemy, and they are us.
Zerooreo
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Bearprof said:

While I appreciate his mild-mannered approach, there is clear evidence now that the Delta Variant is redefining the COVID crisis in our country, especially for those individuals who are not vaccinated. I hope the conferences give an automatic L for those teams who can't play in a given week due to COVID infections. It's past time to stop messing around with this virus and have enough vaccinations to have some semblance of herd Immunity. Otherwise, the virus will continue to mutate due to, essentially, a certain political thought rather than relying on science. We have met the enemy, and they are us.
"We have met the enemy, and they are us."

Always the case....in everything.
Timbear
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The vaccine does Not Guarantee someone will not get Covid. The American Academy of Pediatrics just said everyone over 2 yrs old should wear a mask, vaccinated or not. What the heck is that about? There will probably be more people die from the vaccine than there will be kids who die from Covid.
Mr Tulip
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Michael Irvin was on a rant about this vis a vis the Dallas Cowboys the other day. The gist of it was that football is a tough, demanding sport. By not getting your vaccine, you put the team in jeopardy of losing your performance. You can't claim to be working for a championship and not be vaccinated.

Football players are monitored for every congenital or acquired condition on the planet. They get EKGs. They get blood tests. If there were some outlying condition that would make an mRNA vaccine less than safe for them, they'd know it.

The vaccine is safe, effective, and available. The SEC already said they're not rescheduling, so be prepared to take the L if you can't play. I expect the Big 12 to have similar feelings. If the humanitarian argument won't motivate, perhaps the competitive one will?
Baylorbears111
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Bearprof said:

While I appreciate his mild-mannered approach, there is clear evidence now that the Delta Variant is redefining the COVID crisis in our country, especially for those individuals who are not vaccinated. I hope the conferences give an automatic L for those teams who can't play in a given week due to COVID infections. It's past time to stop messing around with this virus and have enough vaccinations to have some semblance of herd Immunity. Otherwise, the virus will continue to mutate due to, essentially, a certain political thought rather than relying on science. We have met the enemy, and they are us.


If you want people to stop politicizing the virus and vaccine, then you have to stop painting the problem as a political issue. Start addressing the root concerns behind those who aren't convinced by the vaccine and move forward from there.
PartyBear
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This is a silly approach tell the guys to get the damn shot. You tell them essentially what they can eat etc and make them work out. I'm pretty sure the HC and staff dont tell the kids they have the freedom to choose on all other aspects of being on the team. They have the ultimate freedom to decide if they want to play football at at Baylor or not, of course but that should be about it.

I personally feel any losses due to Covid at this point should count toward the record of the HC in terms of hot seat or contract extension issues if this is the approach taken. Just like if we lose if the HC takes the approach that the players can choose to work out or practice or prepare for the games if they want.
Mr Tulip
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Baylorbears111 said:

Bearprof said:

While I appreciate his mild-mannered approach, there is clear evidence now that the Delta Variant is redefining the COVID crisis in our country, especially for those individuals who are not vaccinated. I hope the conferences give an automatic L for those teams who can't play in a given week due to COVID infections. It's past time to stop messing around with this virus and have enough vaccinations to have some semblance of herd Immunity. Otherwise, the virus will continue to mutate due to, essentially, a certain political thought rather than relying on science. We have met the enemy, and they are us.


If you want people to stop politicizing the virus and vaccine, then you have to stop painting the problem as a political issue. Start addressing the root concerns behind those who aren't convinced by the vaccine and move forward from there.
From your lips, to the world's ears!

I don't care if you're political left, right, center, or not applicable. I want you alive and healthy. I want you to have a future, not for the economic impact you have, but because the world needs more happiness. Live long, and, as it were, prosper!

An enterprising biological has figured out a pretty good way of taking on the human race. It's not the first time this has happened. It spreads easily, has a longish incubation period (this is critical), and a pretty deadly payload. Fortunately, we've also had an unprecedented breakthrough in vaccine development. mRNA vaccination is, with no understatement, world changing. Defeating COVID is only the first, small demonstration of its capabilities.

I'm not the fount of all knowledge on it, but would enjoy civil discussions about any real concerns. There are certainly individuals with rare conditions who might want to seek further medical advice (I won't be giving any because I'm not qualified), but the vast majority of us (and certainly almost every college athlete) should make it a priority to be vaccinated.
chorne68
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It should be simple...get the shot or do not be around the team. One guy could ruin the whole season.
Stefano DiMera
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Im absolutely shocked by the level headness in this thread

I was expecting at least 3 unhinged rants when i saw the title.
Wicked_Wombat
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Like someone mentioned above...HC's regulate everything else these players do (and in many cases - consume)...so why so laissez faire over vaccinations - which could result in forfeits and losses? The school is giving these kids scholarships and now NIL...isn't the least they (the players) could do is everything in their power to be on the field?
Oso Pardo
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Like Timbear already said, the vaccine WILL NOT protect anyone from contracting COVID or from being contagious...it simply makes the symptoms less severe/non-existent to the vaccinated individual. So, unless the conferences (and NCAA by extension) add some verbiage to the current guidance on COVID testing then we will still see game cancellations because of positive testing. I don't know what that wording would look like, but as it stands now there will still be cancellations due to positive COVID tests. Even if the entire team is vaccinated there are still going to be positive tests (probably asymptomatic like most were last year).

It doesn't matter if you're PRO vaccine or ANTI vaccine as far as this matter is concerned, it's the current guidance wording that we should be more concerned with as far as being able to play football. The vaccine isn't going to make this instantly go away so we should be demanding that the rules allow some way for the game to be played. If the NCAA/conferences moved forward with guidance which said all fully vaccinated teams will be allowed to play a full schedule then I'm sure any hesitant players would be willing to get vaccinated. Right now I can understand their hesitation since they're in an extremely low risk category and still could be missing games due to current rules even if they take the shot.
Michibear
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Oso Pardo said:

Like Timbear already said, the vaccine WILL NOT protect anyone from contracting COVID or from being contagious...it simply makes the symptoms less severe/non-existent to the vaccinated individual.
That's . . . not right.

"Based on evidence from clinical trials, in people aged 18 years and older, the Moderna vaccine was 94.1% effective at preventing laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 infection in people who received two doses and had no evidence of being previously infected."
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/Moderna.html


ImABearToo
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Lotta sheep on this thread.
Mr Tulip
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I think we're going to have to get clear real quick on what a vaccine does and how they work. This is only necessary because terms like "you have COVID" don't mean much unless we understand and agree.

We all remember about our body's immune response. A foreign thing get inside the body, the body finds it, and starts activating systems to hunt it down and kill it. It keeps doing this until the foreign thing is removed from the body.

Unfortunately, while the body does this, we feel cruddy. The body does things like flood the lungs and sinuses with mucous, crank our body temperature up, make blood vessels swell up, etc. The very act of leveraging the immune system to create antibodies leaves us tired and generally feeling poorly. Meanwhile, this becomes a race to see if the body can overwhelm the germs before the body gives out.

A vaccine is an attempt to give the body a head start. By deliberately introducing a foreign invader, we let the body begin the hard work of developing a defense under favorable conditions. In the past, this was done by injecting a weak or dead actual pathogen into the body. You still get the "feeling cruddy" part of the equation because the body still has to do work, but the body is practically assured of an easy win. After that, your body knows how to spot and kill that particular invader and will do so with MUCH greater efficiency when it sees it again.

The COVID vaccine never introduces COVID into the body at all. It lets your body learn to recognize a piece (the infamous "spike" on the germ) of the virus teaches it to kill it that way. The details are fascinating, but long.

It follows, then, that a vaccinated person can still encounter COVID. The virus can still get inside them. However, the vaccinated person's body will have a much easier time killing that virus as compared to non-vaccinated. During a very brief window, that person might also be able to spread the COVID virus. However, an otherwise healthy vaccinated person will likely never know this happened.

Whether we call this "having COVID" or not would be a small point. In a vaccinated society, these things happen frequently. No one comments on them because the health effects are essentially zero.
PartyBear
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Wicked_Wombat said:

Like someone mentioned above...HC's regulate everything else these players do (and in many cases - consume)...so why so laissez faire over vaccinations - which could result in forfeits and losses? The school is giving these kids scholarships and now NIL...isn't the least they (the players) could do is everything in their power to be on the field?
I would imagine alot of season ticket holders will be not so pleased with Aranda if games are cancelled again but this season due to intentionally not being prepared for Covid. This approach is sort of bordering on mismanaging the program. Part of preparing for the season is making sure all steps available to preventing COVID are taken by the team. Just like they have to go through physical conditioning and eat the science based diet that is prescribed this day and age now to be prepared to play.
BearFan33
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Michibear said:

Oso Pardo said:

Like Timbear already said, the vaccine WILL NOT protect anyone from contracting COVID or from being contagious...it simply makes the symptoms less severe/non-existent to the vaccinated individual.
That's . . . not right.

"Based on evidence from clinical trials, in people aged 18 years and older, the Moderna vaccine was 94.1% effective at preventing laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 infection in people who received two doses and had no evidence of being previously infected."
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/Moderna.html



digging deeper

The body of evidence for the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine was primarily informed by one large, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled Phase III clinical trial that enrolled approximately 30,000 participants aged 1895 years (median = 52 years) (69). Interim findings from this clinical trial, using data from participants with a median of 2 months of follow-up, indicate that the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine efficacy after 2 doses was 94.1% (95% confidence interval = 89.3%96.8%) in preventing symptomatic, laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 among persons without evidence of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, which was the primary study endpoint. High efficacy (86%) was observed across age, sex, race, and ethnicity categories and among persons with underlying medical conditions. Ten hospitalizations due to COVID-19 were documented; nine in the placebo group and one in the vaccine group (9). Preliminary data suggest that the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine might also provide some protection against asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection (7).

They left the word "symptomatic" out in the summary

But in essence Michibear you are correct. A person can still get infected after getting vaccinated, but the chances of infection are greatly decreased. Also if they do get infected, the symptoms are likely to be less severe.

If enough of our players get vaccinated the chance of us forfeiting a game are greatly diminished. But we may see the rare player missing a couple of games here or there.
Zerooreo
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I really don't see why this is so complicated. Programs can just require vaccination in order to be on the team. This IS a business they are running, mind you.
Oso Pardo
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BearFan33 said:

Michibear said:

Oso Pardo said:

Like Timbear already said, the vaccine WILL NOT protect anyone from contracting COVID or from being contagious...it simply makes the symptoms less severe/non-existent to the vaccinated individual.
That's . . . not right.

"Based on evidence from clinical trials, in people aged 18 years and older, the Moderna vaccine was 94.1% effective at preventing laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 infection in people who received two doses and had no evidence of being previously infected."
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/Moderna.html



digging deeper

The body of evidence for the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine was primarily informed by one large, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled Phase III clinical trial that enrolled approximately 30,000 participants aged 1895 years (median = 52 years) (69). Interim findings from this clinical trial, using data from participants with a median of 2 months of follow-up, indicate that the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine efficacy after 2 doses was 94.1% (95% confidence interval = 89.3%96.8%) in preventing symptomatic, laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 among persons without evidence of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, which was the primary study endpoint. High efficacy (86%) was observed across age, sex, race, and ethnicity categories and among persons with underlying medical conditions. Ten hospitalizations due to COVID-19 were documented; nine in the placebo group and one in the vaccine group (9). Preliminary data suggest that the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine might also provide some protection against asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection (7).

They left the word "symptomatic" out in the summary

But in essence Michibear you are correct. A person can still get infected after getting vaccinated, but the chances of infection are greatly decreased. Also if they do get infected, the symptoms are likely to be less severe.

If enough of our players get vaccinated the chance of us forfeiting a game are greatly diminished. But we may see the rare player missing a couple of games here or there.
This is true but keep in mind that the clinical trials you are reading are from December 2020 and published in January 2021.

The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices' Interim Recommendation for Use of Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine United States, December 2020
Weekly / January 1, 2021 / 69(5152);1653-1656
On December 20, 2020, this report was posted online as an MMWR Early Release.


Also, the targeted efficacy for the study was to "prevent symptomatic, laboratory-confirmed COVID-19" (see bolded sentence in the statement above) and not for the prevention of contraction. They are correct for the variant that was prevalent at the time but it's looking like they may not be as accurate for the current Delta variant. I will admit that I should've said "Only reduce your chances" instead of "will not", but the 94.1% being referencing from the study doesn't seem to be holding true. See numbers in the UK right now where the Delta variant is prevalent and only 60% of hospitalizations are from unvaccinated people. Now, 40% vaccinated being hospitalized is still a good number but it shows us that vaccination is not necessarily preventative to contraction.

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/60-people-being-admitted-uk-hospitals-had-two-covid-jabs-adviser-2021-07-19/

Mr Tulip above is correct on how the vaccine works. If you're tested at the right time then it's very possible that you're going to show positive even though you may never "feel" any symptoms. This also depends on the magnification parameters of the testing.

Like I said, the vaccine isn't going to make this instantly go away so we need some better guidance moving forward. I wasn't trying to start an argument or ruffle feathers, just stating that we are probably going to see positive tests even with vaccination if the players continue to be tested every week before every game. And if the contact tracing is still in place then we will see quarantines which could prevent games from being played.

Zerooreo also has a good solution. If every player is required to be vaccinated then we can stop testing and this is a non-issue, unless someone tries to say it's infringing on their rights...then who knows where it goes from there in the crazy world we live in today.


Bear Apologist
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ImABearToo said:

Lotta sheep on this thread.


So far I only see one.
Big_Pumpin
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It's all out there now. Vaccines are available. Information is available. Why do we care? 18-22 year olds have a 0.0785% chance of ending up in the hospital. If you choose not to get the vaccine and end up in the hospital, it's your choice. Let's move along.
PartyBear
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...and in the meantime forfeit games should this happen to a program that does not mandate the vaccine? There is alot more riding on this decision of a player on scholarship at a school and now perhaps even being paid in some way than just the players' choice. Does Aranda also tell them they do not need to participate in the nutrition and conditioning program and they can eat all their meals a Burger King now as well if that is what they choose to do with their body?
Amal Shuq-Up
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Any other non-FDA-approved therapies you would force on total strangers simply so you can be entertained?
Bear Apologist
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Carlos Cruz said:

Any other non-FDA-approved therapies you would force on total strangers simply so you can be entertained?


This FDA?

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda

"..most community members need to get the vaccine."
Amal Shuq-Up
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Bear Apologist said:

Carlos Cruz said:

Any other non-FDA-approved therapies you would force on total strangers simply so you can be entertained?


This FDA?

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda

"..most community members need to get the vaccine."
Exactly. The FDA that still has not approved these therapies. Their use is authorized but the therapies have not gone through the approval process. Oh, and conveniently, the manufacturers are largely immune from civil liability.

Mr Tulip
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So are you attempting to make "emergency authorization" equal to "not proven safe"?
Amal Shuq-Up
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Mr Tulip said:

So are you attempting to make "emergency authorization" equal to "not proven safe"?
There is no long term data on the safety of these therapies. For you to claim they are safe, is to ignore the fact that there has not been enough time to evaluate the long-term effects of the therapies.

Frankly, I am disgusted that total strangers are advocating that medical decisions, the long-term effects of which are not known, be undertaken by 18-23 year-old men simply so they can be entertained.
Bear Apologist
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"Exactly. The FDA that still has not approved these therapies. Their use is authorized..."

Please re-read what you wrote.
Amal Shuq-Up
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Bear Apologist said:

"Exactly. The FDA that still has not approved these therapies. Their use is authorized..."

Please re-read what you wrote.
And finish the statement. Emergency use authorization is not the same as FDA approved.
Mr Tulip
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Carlos Cruz said:

Mr Tulip said:

So are you attempting to make "emergency authorization" equal to "not proven safe"?
There is no long term data on the safety of these therapies. For you to claim they are safe, is to ignore the fact that there has not been enough time to evaluate the long-term effects of the therapies.

Frankly, I am disgusted that total strangers are advocating that medical decisions, the long-term effects of which are not known, be undertaken by 18-23 year-old men simply so they can be entertained.
Since it was new as of last year, there's no way to have long term data. If everyone waited until there was long term data, there'd still be no long term data since no one would be using them.

What I can do is point to how the damned thing works. It's practically dead bang foolproof.

Basically, we know that our bodies use DNA as the "instruction books" to create more cells. Well, that's it sort of. Really, our DNA tells our bodies how to combine four very specific chemicals to make proteins (proteins are stupidly long molecule chains). Once the DNA sends out the chemical signals (this is key later), our bodies begin assembling those chemicals at specific receptor sites on other cells. The proteins will be built to specification and released into the body. A properly coded and assembled protein strand will be (a) recognized as safe by the body and (b) incorporated into the body to build a specific cellular structure.

The vaccine mimics that "chemical signal", but instead of asking to build human proteins, it asks the body to build ONLY the spiky part of the COVID virus. Since it only build the spiky part, there's ZERO CHANCE of an actual COVID infection from the vaccine. However, your body's immune system will find that spiky protein once it's built and released, recognize it as a foreign invader, and activate the immune response to begin killing it. You may feel poorly (see previous post), but your body will now be ready to immediately fight off actual COVID if it ever finds it.

This is orders of magnitude simpler (and safer) than growing live virus samples, weakening them (or killing them) and then creating a way to introduce an effective dose to a live human. Once the mRNA messenger (what the COVID vaccine actually is, since mRNA (messenger RNA) are the "chemical signals" mentioned earlier) does its job, it simply breaks down on the spot. It has to. There can be no "long term effects" from the vaccine itself.

I'm confident saying that anyone currently playing college football is healthy enough to receive the COVID vaccine with no ill (!) effects. To my knowledge, no one is currently being "forced" to play college football given any realistic definition of that word. If they "choose" to accept the opportunity to play, I can "force" them to get a vaccine the same way I can "force" them to wear a particular brand of helmet. The game is not played in a vacuum (which would be quickly fatal).
Mr Tulip
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To be fair, there was one issue with the way one of the vaccines was introduced. I should mention it.

I've bloviated about how the vaccine works. I mentioned the "chemical signals" used, and that they're based on mRNA. That's "messenger RNA" or "messenger ribonucleic acid" if you want the whole thing spelled out. They're the genius part of the vaccine. However, you can't just inject mRNA into someone. The body would just kill it straight away.

Instead, it's smuggled into the body on lipids. This is a biology word for "fat". Basically, you knock together some fats that the body won't worry about (the body has tons of it in the blood, and it's necessary to move vitamins around - rabbit starvation is another post!), and link the mRNA vaccine on the back of it. It gets injected into the body, the body doesn't worry about the fats, and the mRNA signals make it to the cellular surfaces to do their job.

A VERY few people were sensitive to the particular fat formulation in a particular manufacturer's vaccine. A reaction to the fat carrier could have contributed to the formation of blood clots. While nothing was overtly proven, the mechanism was identified, understood, and easily changed by using another fat carrier.
Gunny Hartman
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Bearprof said:

While I appreciate his mild-mannered approach, there is clear evidence now that the Delta Variant is redefining the COVID crisis in our country, especially for those individuals who are not vaccinated. I hope the conferences give an automatic L for those teams who can't play in a given week due to COVID infections. It's past time to stop messing around with this virus and have enough vaccinations to have some semblance of herd Immunity. Otherwise, the virus will continue to mutate due to, essentially, a certain political thought rather than relying on science. We have met the enemy, and they are us.

Totally! After all, Texas Democrats proved that once you get the vax then you're totally immune.

Oh wait.
ImABearToo
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My the covid hoax triggers a lot of people.
 
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