Gameday Thread: No. 17 Baylor Returns Home to Face New Orleans

Its a legit point because nobody is coming close to talent level like that. Most 5 stars are not all the same and Duke's (and Rutgers for that matter) are way better than say AZ or KU's or ours. If they can't pull it and UK couldn't, most teams probably can't work it.

Edge isn't really being showcased the way you are portraying it. He is not ball dominant, he rarely has the ball in his hands and only takes wide open, uncontested 3s that aren't going in. I would like to see fewer attempts though because that is not his forte.

A wing version of Missi!?? So he's gonna completely alter shots/shot selection? I love your enthusiasm and I put a ton of stock in your opinions (even though we disagree often) because you know ball. But I just don't see VJ making a huge impact this year. He's going to make splash plays that wow us all because he's just that damm athletic. I just don't see his offense improving a ton this year. This is where I agree with Bear2. VJ doesn't need to lead the team in shots. Nunn, Roach, Omier, he'll a healthy Love should all be getting more shots up a game than VJ

Yes he gets tons of blocks and deflections. Such a freak athlete with great anticipation. But fewer 3 point attempts, please.

TWD 1974 said:

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I really hope I'm wrong but wonder if we have a player on the way out (portal wise).

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I think you may have hit on something here.

Quinton said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wright should be our recruiting template -- elite, polished high school players that don't have NBA measurables.

The measurables aren't necessary to win at the college level -- as players like Drew Timme and Norchad Omier prove every year -- and polish goes way farther than raw athleticism/talent.

Give me polish over flash all day, every day. I want core of elite skill players surrounded by project athletes in the hustle roles.

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If we can find a version of Wright at every position, sure, we probably win titles. But its impossible to do. The leading players in the big 12 over the last few years were nothing like him coming out of school. They weren't as highly regarded and not nearly as good for their first couple years.

He'll be a two to three year player here and should be the best pg in the conference by that time. With physical develpment and defensive polish, he'll be special. But everyone knew Wrights limitations and ability early. Different case. Not many high schoolers as polished as him. If you can point out specific targets like that I'm sure everyone would be open to it. Butler is the last player we've had like that.

Most of the top players were underfollowed guys or guys who developed into great college players but it was far from a guarantee. Came down to coaching and developmement. Either way, Drew might be quietly going to your strategy as the 5 star we have is a pure energy and defensive guy with a huge motor. Sounds like we're bowing out for Peat (could be wrong) so would expect the portal and 4 star guys to be what he'll do.

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Jared Butler was the same type of player -- not the same level of recruit, but the exact same type of player. He stepped on the court Day 1 with a game that translated to high major DI basketball. I want to focus more on skill set than measurables and find more of those guys.

I don't care what the NBA thinks of players. I want guys who can play college basketball at an elite level. If they're undersized or tweeners positionally, all the better because, in modern college basketball, that means you might have a chance to keep those guys a few years and develop them.

But I'm tired of star-chasing. And I'm tired of rebuilding the roster every season. If the goal is to build championship basketball teams and not to send guys to the league -- and it 100 percent should be -- it has been a failure as a recruiting strategy.

I don't know where anyone is seeing Missi so I can't back that comment but VJ did look the best defender today in the short minutes he played. Now is it bc he looks great against lesser athletes? maybe.

VJ is already a much better defender than George or Walters. Our defensive coaching probably doesn't get it all out of him but he could be different than those cases. Again I just don't trust our defensive coaching.

On the jumpers thrown up and the really poor finishing.. I agree. He should be cutting contstantly with occasional slashes looking for kick outs and improving his finishing. The "freedom" given in our system doesn't help freshman who are still learning.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Edge isn't really being showcased the way you are portraying it. He is not ball dominant, he rarely has the ball in his hands and only takes wide open, uncontested 3s that aren't going in. I would like to see fewer attempts though because that is not his forte.

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Edgecombe should have a red light from 3-point range unless he is literally unguarded or it's an end-of-clock situation. The guy is averaging almost five 3-point attempts per game right now.

Do you think Kelvin Sampson, Bill Self or Danny Hurley is allowing that from a freshman? Hell no.

Scott Drew is a great college basketball coach. He is a terrible fit stylistically for one-and-done freshman because he doesn't demand/require the on-court accountability those players need to be their most successful. He gives them a level of freedom that is neither good for them or the team.

WVU now taking Gonzaga to OT.

bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wright should be our recruiting template -- elite, polished high school players that don't have NBA measurables.

The measurables aren't necessary to win at the college level -- as players like Drew Timme and Norchad Omier prove every year -- and polish goes way farther than raw athleticism/talent.

Give me polish over flash all day, every day. I want core of elite skill players surrounded by project athletes in the hustle roles.

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If we can find a version of Wright at every position, sure, we probably win titles. But its impossible to do. The leading players in the big 12 over the last few years were nothing like him coming out of school. They weren't as highly regarded and not nearly as good for their first couple years.

He'll be a two to three year player here and should be the best pg in the conference by that time. With physical develpment and defensive polish, he'll be special. But everyone knew Wrights limitations and ability early. Different case. Not many high schoolers as polished as him. If you can point out specific targets like that I'm sure everyone would be open to it. Butler is the last player we've had like that.

Most of the top players were underfollowed guys or guys who developed into great college players but it was far from a guarantee. Came down to coaching and developmement. Either way, Drew might be quietly going to your strategy as the 5 star we have is a pure energy and defensive guy with a huge motor. Sounds like we're bowing out for Peat (could be wrong) so would expect the portal and 4 star guys to be what he'll do.

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Jared Butler was the same type of player -- not the same level of recruit, but the exact same type of player. He stepped on the court Day 1 with a game that translated to high major DI basketball. I want to focus more on skill set than measurables and find more of those guys.

I don't care what the NBA thinks of players. I want guys who can play basketball at an elite level. If they're undersized or tweeners positionally, all the better in modern college basketball because it means you might be able to keep those guys a few years and develop them.

But I'm tired of star-chasing. If the goal is to build championship basketball teams and not to send guys to the league -- and it 100 percent should be -- it has been a failure as a recruiting strategy.

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I already said Butler. He immediately stood out and was a mid to high 4 star. That was a miracle pick up as we lost out on him initially. If we can load up on kids like that, sure its a good strategy.

If you can start pointing out the specific players (forwards, guards, and bigs) that we need to target that would help. There are not a ton. McNeeley and Kon are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head (this year) and even they don't quite fit it.

Love prior to injury was a good example of it. Sochan as well. I don't think there is another example of it in the entire big 12 this year.. maybe the Byu kid. Thats the point, its a great idea but harder to execute in reality.

Lipsey and the the foreign kid for ISU both made impacts day 1 in their designed role here at ISU. Lipsey is now a junior and 1 of the better PGs in the B12 and the foreign kid is a terrific shooter and knows his role within the team. Both came in as 4 stars both making impacts over multiple seasons.

Quinton said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wright should be our recruiting template -- elite, polished high school players that don't have NBA measurables.

The measurables aren't necessary to win at the college level -- as players like Drew Timme and Norchad Omier prove every year -- and polish goes way farther than raw athleticism/talent.

Give me polish over flash all day, every day. I want core of elite skill players surrounded by project athletes in the hustle roles.

---

If we can find a version of Wright at every position, sure, we probably win titles. But its impossible to do. The leading players in the big 12 over the last few years were nothing like him coming out of school. They weren't as highly regarded and not nearly as good for their first couple years.

He'll be a two to three year player here and should be the best pg in the conference by that time. With physical develpment and defensive polish, he'll be special. But everyone knew Wrights limitations and ability early. Different case. Not many high schoolers as polished as him. If you can point out specific targets like that I'm sure everyone would be open to it. Butler is the last player we've had like that.

Most of the top players were underfollowed guys or guys who developed into great college players but it was far from a guarantee. Came down to coaching and developmement. Either way, Drew might be quietly going to your strategy as the 5 star we have is a pure energy and defensive guy with a huge motor. Sounds like we're bowing out for Peat (could be wrong) so would expect the portal and 4 star guys to be what he'll do.

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Jared Butler was the same type of player -- not the same level of recruit, but the exact same type of player. He stepped on the court Day 1 with a game that translated to high major DI basketball. I want to focus more on skill set than measurables and find more of those guys.

I don't care what the NBA thinks of players. I want guys who can play basketball at an elite level. If they're undersized or tweeners positionally, all the better in modern college basketball because it means you might be able to keep those guys a few years and develop them.

But I'm tired of star-chasing. If the goal is to build championship basketball teams and not to send guys to the league -- and it 100 percent should be -- it has been a failure as a recruiting strategy.

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I already said Butler. He immediately stood out and was a mid to high 4 star. That was a miracle pick up as we lost out on him initially. If we can load up on kids like that, sure its a good strategy.

If you can start pointing out the specific players (forwards, guards, and bigs) that we need to target that would help. There are not a ton. McNeeley and Kon are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head and even they don't quite fit it.

Love prior to injury was a good example of it. Sochan as well. I don't think there is another example of it in the entire big 12 this year.. maybe the Byu kid. Thats the point, its a great idea but harder to execute in reality.

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I can point to a lot more that aren't it than who are. Unfortunately, VJ Edgecombe is a pretty perfect example. And it's not because he's a bad player or I don't like him. I would love him in the right role. But a) he wouldn't come here to play that role and b) he just doesn't have a polished enough game to be a good fit for Drew, who is going to allow such a player too much freedom to be successful.

WV was predicted I believe to finish dead last in the B12… they're on the verge of beating Gonzaga a team who spanked us silly

I have said repeatedly I would like fewer 3s from edge. But that is how our offense runs under drew. It is not a showcasing of 5 star players. All our guards and wings rely heavily on the 3. Not saying I agree with the approach but don't think that will change even when a guy is struggling.

For the price we paid Edgecombe, who undoubtedly will be a contributor just not a superstar as he was billed by a lot of people, we could have gotten a 6-8, 230 lb transfer power forward or center who had proven he could play college basketball at a higher level and had 2 or 3 years of experience doing it, AND a starting wing who had started at smaller school but showed he had the ability to contribute at this level. Then we have some depth (which is what will eventually bite us in the ass in the lengthy Big 12 season as it has for the past 3 years) and a wash with what Edgecombe is going to contribute in his 1 year here. If this were the 1990s and Edgecombe was gonna stay 4 years then we're talking a different story.

And there it is. WVU beats Gonzaga.

Unbelievable.

Big12Fan2024 said:

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For the price we paid Edgecombe, who undoubtedly will be a contributor just not a superstar as he was billed by a lot of people, we could have gotten a 6-8, 230 lb transfer power forward or center who had proven he could play college basketball at a higher level and had 2 or 3 years of experience doing it, AND a starting wing who had started at smaller school but showed he had the ability to contribute at this level. Then we have some depth (which is what will eventually bite us in the ass in the lengthy Big 12 season as it has for the past 3 years) and a wash with what Edgecombe is going to contribute in his 1 year here. If this were the 1990s and Edgecombe was gonna stay 4 years then we're talking a different story.

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This is a great point, and one I wish I'd made earlier in my discussion with Quinton.

The great thing about the transfer portal is you don't have to hit on all your freshmen recruits. You can go shopping for well-fitting pieces who have already been successful at the college level.

If we have a finite amount of money to build our roster, I'd rather recruit four-star and developmental freshmen and spend the bulk of my resources on transfers -- preferably those with multiple years of eligibility remaining. The return on investment simply hasn't been high enough with our sure fire one-and-done freshmen.

The transfer portal and NIL era has definitely hit both college football and basketball. We now have the coaches' preseason 15th place team in the Big 12 beat the #2 team in the country (UConn) and the predicted 13th place team (WVU) take out #3 Gonzaga.

I get what you're saying. You're not doggin' Edgecombe and neither am I. I really like him and you can tell he has an infectious, positive attitude. He's gonna be a valued contributor to this team and will have a great chance to develop into a superstar over the years as he continues to build his basketball skills. But we have him for one year and one year only so you have to consider what are the alternative productivity measurements we may have passed over in order to sign him. It's just a matter of what may be the best roster management.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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I have said repeatedly I would like fewer 3s from edge. But that is how our offense runs under drew. It is not a showcasing of 5 star players. All our guards and wings rely heavily on the 3. Not saying I agree with the approach but don't think that will change even when a guy is struggling.

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I would argue that his role, minutes load and shot selection all exceed what he is actually capable of providing to the team right now.

I would also argue that all would be right-sized in most elite programs and by most elite coaches.

Scott Drew is an elite college basketball coach. I will push back all day against anyone who argues the opposite. But he is a bad fit for overconfident young players with high-usage expectations. He has been since his early days, when he let Jerrells, Dugat and Rogers run wild.

He just doesn't provide the structure or demand the accountability necessary to win big with those players. It is what it is at this point.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Edge isn't really being showcased the way you are portraying it. He is not ball dominant, he rarely has the ball in his hands and only takes wide open, uncontested 3s that aren't going in. I would like to see fewer attempts though because that is not his forte.

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Which of course is why he's wide open a lot

bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wright should be our recruiting template -- elite, polished high school players that don't have NBA measurables.

The measurables aren't necessary to win at the college level -- as players like Drew Timme and Norchad Omier prove every year -- and polish goes way farther than raw athleticism/talent.

Give me polish over flash all day, every day. I want core of elite skill players surrounded by project athletes in the hustle roles.

---

If we can find a version of Wright at every position, sure, we probably win titles. But its impossible to do. The leading players in the big 12 over the last few years were nothing like him coming out of school. They weren't as highly regarded and not nearly as good for their first couple years.

He'll be a two to three year player here and should be the best pg in the conference by that time. With physical develpment and defensive polish, he'll be special. But everyone knew Wrights limitations and ability early. Different case. Not many high schoolers as polished as him. If you can point out specific targets like that I'm sure everyone would be open to it. Butler is the last player we've had like that.

Most of the top players were underfollowed guys or guys who developed into great college players but it was far from a guarantee. Came down to coaching and developmement. Either way, Drew might be quietly going to your strategy as the 5 star we have is a pure energy and defensive guy with a huge motor. Sounds like we're bowing out for Peat (could be wrong) so would expect the portal and 4 star guys to be what he'll do.

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Jared Butler was the same type of player -- not the same level of recruit, but the exact same type of player. He stepped on the court Day 1 with a game that translated to high major DI basketball. I want to focus more on skill set than measurables and find more of those guys.

I don't care what the NBA thinks of players. I want guys who can play basketball at an elite level. If they're undersized or tweeners positionally, all the better in modern college basketball because it means you might be able to keep those guys a few years and develop them.

But I'm tired of star-chasing. If the goal is to build championship basketball teams and not to send guys to the league -- and it 100 percent should be -- it has been a failure as a recruiting strategy.

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I already said Butler. He immediately stood out and was a mid to high 4 star. That was a miracle pick up as we lost out on him initially. If we can load up on kids like that, sure its a good strategy.

If you can start pointing out the specific players (forwards, guards, and bigs) that we need to target that would help. There are not a ton. McNeeley and Kon are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head and even they don't quite fit it.

Love prior to injury was a good example of it. Sochan as well. I don't think there is another example of it in the entire big 12 this year.. maybe the Byu kid. Thats the point, its a great idea but harder to execute in reality.

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I can point to a lot more that aren't it than who are. Unfortunately, VJ Edgecombe is a pretty perfect example. And it's not because he's a bad player or I don't like him. I would love him in the right role. But a) he wouldn't come here to play that role and b) he just doesn't have a polished enough game to be a good fit for Drew, who is going to allow such a player too much freedom to be successful.

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So Basically were gonna live with it all season because that's what was promised or at some point does the player even say this is hurting my stock (is it? Maybe doesn't matter because measurable) and they just gonna keep Doing what they're doing

IowaBear said:

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Lipsey and the the foreign kid for ISU both made impacts day 1 in their designed role here at ISU. Lipsey is now a junior and 1 of the better PGs in the B12 and the foreign kid is a terrific shooter and knows his role within the team. Both came in as 4 stars both making impacts over multiple seasons.

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Lipsey wasn't close to the same level of recruit as Butler or Wright. Sometimes they pan out like that, but its not the same thing. I agree how he plays is a good example but finding kids like that and the talent translating isn't certain.

Don't know what foreign kid but if you're talking about Momcilovic if that's his name, that is a good example. I believe a mid to high 4 star prospect. But we're pointing to 2 players over multiple years. Bear2's strategy of loading up with kids like this is easier said than done.

But the overall point was freshman like we're describing in the big 12 this year. This year = their current freshman year right now. Only Wright and Byu's freshman. That's two in the entire league. Again, I agree with the premise and I do think Drew is quietly pivoting. We bowed out of of multiple recruitments this cycle. Now if we can't retain a guy that was clearly developemental 4 star (Assemota) that would be negative.

I was in the building today and the drive where VJ missed the layup was take your breath away athleticism. When you are noticeably way more athletic than all these fantastic D 1 talents, it is impressive. Maybe it will translate soon on the actual production on the court we all hope…….

IvanBear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Big12Fan2024 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wright should be our recruiting template -- elite, polished high school players that don't have NBA measurables.

The measurables aren't necessary to win at the college level -- as players like Drew Timme and Norchad Omier prove every year -- and polish goes way farther than raw athleticism/talent.

Give me polish over flash all day, every day. I want core of elite skill players surrounded by project athletes in the hustle roles.

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Everyone can keep trying to convince me how great Edgecombe is and maybe he will be a NBA all star one day, but Robert Wright runs circles around him as a ready to play college basketball player and will at the end of the year as well.

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The frustrating part to me is VJ Edgecombe would be an absolute perfect hustle guy. But because of his pedigree, he's being shoehorned into a showcase role he doesn't have the basketball chops to handle efficiently.

With today's performance, he's now shooting 35.8 percent from the field and 26.7 percent from 3. And only today did Roach pass him for the most field goal attempts on the team.

We're basically repeating the exact same mistakes we did with George and Walter. We're not doing these freshmen any favors by exposing them beyond their levels of expertise. And we're actively hurting the team in most cases by doing so.

I don't understand why we can't do what most other elite programs do with elite freshman talent and mold them into the roles that best fit the team. If showcasing/overexposing these players is a condition of getting these guys on campus, I'd rather let them go elsewhere and go back to building our teams the way we did before the national title.

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I don't understand why elite freshman keep coming here, they come out lower draft picks than they were projected going in, yeah you get the minutes Drew promised you but they don't get materially better throughout the season. At some point you have to make a business decision that sure maybe Baylor's paying me slightly more than (idk use KU as an example) but the coaching I'm getting is going to cost me in the long run.

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This is a patently absurd take. We're not getting guys who are consensus #1 picks coming into the college game, and once you get outside the top 5-6 picks, it becomes a matter of personal preference or team needs that determine draft position. As long as guys who are projected first round picks are still going in the first round (Kendall Brown is the only guy we've had recently who didn't), I don't think you can make this argument without having some type of agenda.

Jarace Walker, who was a one and done at Houston, is having way less professional success than any of the guys we've seen drafted in the first round in the past 5 years. Based on your posting history, I would assume you believe that Kelvin Sampson is a far superior coach to Scott Drew (but please correct me if I'm off on that), so it doesn't seem to be a matter of excellent college coaching making any sort of discernable difference.

Big12Fan2024 said:

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And there it is. WVU beats Gonzaga.

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Have we considered we might just not be good this year? This is outright depressing how our top opponents are performing in other games, Tennessee so far excluded other than they haven't played anyone besides us, and won't until conference play.

Quinton said:

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IowaBear said:

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Lipsey and the the foreign kid for ISU both made impacts day 1 in their designed role here at ISU. Lipsey is now a junior and 1 of the better PGs in the B12 and the foreign kid is a terrific shooter and knows his role within the team. Both came in as 4 stars both making impacts over multiple seasons.

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Lipsey wasn't close to the same level of recruit as Butler or Wright. Sometimes they pan out like that, but its not the same thing. I agree how he plays is a good example but finding kids like that and the talent translating isn't certain.

Don't know what foreign kid but if you're talking about Momcilovic if that's his name, that is a good example. I believe a mid to high 4 star prospect. But we're pointing to 2 players over multiple years. Bear2's strategy of loading up with kids like this is easier said than done.

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I think Mark Few does a pretty good job of it at Gonzaga. His teams are always supremely skilled to fit what he tries to do offensively. And while you can argue there has been a ceiling on his approach -- he's fallen one win shy of a title twice -- there's also been a floor of the Sweet Sixteen, which I would take all day, every day.

But there's no one size fits all approach. I just want to get back to recruiting to fit our program rather than collecting the shiniest group of ill-fitting toys we can guarantee minutes and shots to every season.

There are a lot of coaches still recruiting and developing to a distinct program identity -- even in the transfer portal and NIL era. Scott Drew has chosen not to be one of them.

FFA0329 said:

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I was in the building today and the drive where VJ missed the layup was take your breath away athleticism. When you are noticeably way more athletic than all these fantastic D 1 talents, it is impressive. Maybe it will translate soon on the actual production on the court we all hope…….

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I don't think anyone questions his athleticism, which is otherworldly. But his game is less polished than even I was expecting, and I would bet my expectations for him were much lower than most here.

bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wright should be our recruiting template -- elite, polished high school players that don't have NBA measurables.

The measurables aren't necessary to win at the college level -- as players like Drew Timme and Norchad Omier prove every year -- and polish goes way farther than raw athleticism/talent.

Give me polish over flash all day, every day. I want core of elite skill players surrounded by project athletes in the hustle roles.

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If we can find a version of Wright at every position, sure, we probably win titles. But its impossible to do. The leading players in the big 12 over the last few years were nothing like him coming out of school. They weren't as highly regarded and not nearly as good for their first couple years.

He'll be a two to three year player here and should be the best pg in the conference by that time. With physical develpment and defensive polish, he'll be special. But everyone knew Wrights limitations and ability early. Different case. Not many high schoolers as polished as him. If you can point out specific targets like that I'm sure everyone would be open to it. Butler is the last player we've had like that.

Most of the top players were underfollowed guys or guys who developed into great college players but it was far from a guarantee. Came down to coaching and developmement. Either way, Drew might be quietly going to your strategy as the 5 star we have is a pure energy and defensive guy with a huge motor. Sounds like we're bowing out for Peat (could be wrong) so would expect the portal and 4 star guys to be what he'll do.

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Jared Butler was the same type of player -- not the same level of recruit, but the exact same type of player. He stepped on the court Day 1 with a game that translated to high major DI basketball. I want to focus more on skill set than measurables and find more of those guys.

I don't care what the NBA thinks of players. I want guys who can play basketball at an elite level. If they're undersized or tweeners positionally, all the better in modern college basketball because it means you might be able to keep those guys a few years and develop them.

But I'm tired of star-chasing. If the goal is to build championship basketball teams and not to send guys to the league -- and it 100 percent should be -- it has been a failure as a recruiting strategy.

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I already said Butler. He immediately stood out and was a mid to high 4 star. That was a miracle pick up as we lost out on him initially. If we can load up on kids like that, sure its a good strategy.

If you can start pointing out the specific players (forwards, guards, and bigs) that we need to target that would help. There are not a ton. McNeeley and Kon are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head and even they don't quite fit it.

Love prior to injury was a good example of it. Sochan as well. I don't think there is another example of it in the entire big 12 this year.. maybe the Byu kid. Thats the point, its a great idea but harder to execute in reality.

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I can point to a lot more that aren't it than who are. Unfortunately, VJ Edgecombe is a pretty perfect example. And it's not because he's a bad player or I don't like him. I would love him in the right role. But a) he wouldn't come here to play that role and b) he just doesn't have a polished enough game to be a good fit for Drew, who is going to allow such a player too much freedom to be successful.

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Sure, but you have to recruit and you have to do it at a pre-requisite talent level for high D1 basketball. I support the premise but we need the list of guys like Wright, Love, Sochan which is difficult to hit on consistenly.

I agree on the Drew comment. Our system and coaching isn't exactly condusive to young players showing their best skills without exploiting their weaknesses. To me, that is more coaching than recruiting. VJ could be an excellent Castle like (Uconn last year) player. Coaching and recruiting need to be tweaked to maximize the program.

If incredible athleticism automatically correlated to incredibly elite basketball skills and production, Deuce Bello would have been a 4 year All American, Naismith Award winner, NBA MVP and in the NBA Hall of Fame.

Mitch Henessey said:

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IvanBear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Big12Fan2024 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wright should be our recruiting template -- elite, polished high school players that don't have NBA measurables.

The measurables aren't necessary to win at the college level -- as players like Drew Timme and Norchad Omier prove every year -- and polish goes way farther than raw athleticism/talent.

Give me polish over flash all day, every day. I want core of elite skill players surrounded by project athletes in the hustle roles.

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Everyone can keep trying to convince me how great Edgecombe is and maybe he will be a NBA all star one day, but Robert Wright runs circles around him as a ready to play college basketball player and will at the end of the year as well.

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The frustrating part to me is VJ Edgecombe would be an absolute perfect hustle guy. But because of his pedigree, he's being shoehorned into a showcase role he doesn't have the basketball chops to handle efficiently.

With today's performance, he's now shooting 35.8 percent from the field and 26.7 percent from 3. And only today did Roach pass him for the most field goal attempts on the team.

We're basically repeating the exact same mistakes we did with George and Walter. We're not doing these freshmen any favors by exposing them beyond their levels of expertise. And we're actively hurting the team in most cases by doing so.

I don't understand why we can't do what most other elite programs do with elite freshman talent and mold them into the roles that best fit the team. If showcasing/overexposing these players is a condition of getting these guys on campus, I'd rather let them go elsewhere and go back to building our teams the way we did before the national title.

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I don't understand why elite freshman keep coming here, they come out lower draft picks than they were projected going in, yeah you get the minutes Drew promised you but they don't get materially better throughout the season. At some point you have to make a business decision that sure maybe Baylor's paying me slightly more than (idk use KU as an example) but the coaching I'm getting is going to cost me in the long run.

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This is a patently absurd take. We're not getting guys who are consensus #1 picks coming into the college game, and once you get outside the top 5-6 picks, it becomes a matter of personal preference or team needs that determine draft position. As long as guys who are projected first round picks are still going in the first round (Kendall Brown is the only guy we've had recently who didn't), I don't think you can make this argument without having some type of agenda.

Jarace Walker, who was a one and done at Houston, is having way less professional success than any of the guys we've seen drafted in the first round in the past 5 years. Based on your posting history, I would assume you believe that Kelvin Sampson is a far superior coach to Scott Drew (but please correct me if I'm off on that), so it doesn't seem to be a matter of excellent college coaching making any sort of discernable difference.

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It's not as ridiculous as you think. Our track record with projected one-and-done talent is pretty bad.

Perry Jones -- Had to stay a second year because of falling stock; drafted in late first round after Year 2; washed out in three years.
Quincy Miller -- Fell to the second round; washed out in three years
Isaiah Austin -- Had to stay a second year because of falling stock; health kept him from being drafted after Year 2
Kendall Brown -- Fell to late second round; washed out in three years
Keyonte George -- Fell out of lottery; moderately successful albeit inefficient through first two years
Ja'Kobe Walter -- Fell out of lottery in a weak draft; in the G League after four really bad games

We've had far better luck with under-the-radar guys who worked themselves into first-round picks -- Jeremy Sochan and Yves Missi -- than we have with the guys who came in with one-and-done expectations.

Mitch Henessey said:

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IvanBear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Big12Fan2024 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wright should be our recruiting template -- elite, polished high school players that don't have NBA measurables.

The measurables aren't necessary to win at the college level -- as players like Drew Timme and Norchad Omier prove every year -- and polish goes way farther than raw athleticism/talent.

Give me polish over flash all day, every day. I want core of elite skill players surrounded by project athletes in the hustle roles.

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Everyone can keep trying to convince me how great Edgecombe is and maybe he will be a NBA all star one day, but Robert Wright runs circles around him as a ready to play college basketball player and will at the end of the year as well.

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The frustrating part to me is VJ Edgecombe would be an absolute perfect hustle guy. But because of his pedigree, he's being shoehorned into a showcase role he doesn't have the basketball chops to handle efficiently.

With today's performance, he's now shooting 35.8 percent from the field and 26.7 percent from 3. And only today did Roach pass him for the most field goal attempts on the team.

We're basically repeating the exact same mistakes we did with George and Walter. We're not doing these freshmen any favors by exposing them beyond their levels of expertise. And we're actively hurting the team in most cases by doing so.

I don't understand why we can't do what most other elite programs do with elite freshman talent and mold them into the roles that best fit the team. If showcasing/overexposing these players is a condition of getting these guys on campus, I'd rather let them go elsewhere and go back to building our teams the way we did before the national title.

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I don't understand why elite freshman keep coming here, they come out lower draft picks than they were projected going in, yeah you get the minutes Drew promised you but they don't get materially better throughout the season. At some point you have to make a business decision that sure maybe Baylor's paying me slightly more than (idk use KU as an example) but the coaching I'm getting is going to cost me in the long run.

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This is a patently absurd take. We're not getting guys who are consensus #1 picks coming into the college game, and once you get outside the top 5-6 picks, it becomes a matter of personal preference or team needs that determine draft position. As long as guys who are projected first round picks are still going in the first round (Kendall Brown is the only guy we've had recently who didn't), I don't think you can make this argument without having some type of agenda.

Jarace Walker, who was a one and done at Houston, is having way less professional success than any of the guys we've seen drafted in the first round in the past 5 years. Based on your posting history, I would assume you believe that Kelvin Sampson is a far superior coach to Scott Drew (but please correct me if I'm off on that), so it doesn't seem to be a matter of excellent college coaching making any sort of discernable difference.

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Mitch, the only issue with this is; Walker would have been a borerline first rounder in other systems. He was forced to rebound, defend, and play basic offense. He showed the perfect balance without trying to do a whole lot. His "upside" still remained and he looked like a plug in so he went way above his early projections. It "worked out."

I agree otherwise except for George. George wasn't consensus #1, but George was thought to be the prospect with possibly the most upside in the class for a long time. Most had pencilled him as top 7 for multiple years before he fell due to his inefficiencies with us.

bear2be2 said:

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Quinton said:

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IowaBear said:

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Lipsey and the the foreign kid for ISU both made impacts day 1 in their designed role here at ISU. Lipsey is now a junior and 1 of the better PGs in the B12 and the foreign kid is a terrific shooter and knows his role within the team. Both came in as 4 stars both making impacts over multiple seasons.

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Lipsey wasn't close to the same level of recruit as Butler or Wright. Sometimes they pan out like that, but its not the same thing. I agree how he plays is a good example but finding kids like that and the talent translating isn't certain.

Don't know what foreign kid but if you're talking about Momcilovic if that's his name, that is a good example. I believe a mid to high 4 star prospect. But we're pointing to 2 players over multiple years. Bear2's strategy of loading up with kids like this is easier said than done.

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I think Mark Few does a pretty good job of it at Gonzaga. His teams are always supremely skilled to fit what he tries to do offensively. And while you can argue there has been a ceiling on his approach -- he's fallen one win shy of a title twice -- there's also been a floor of the Sweet Sixteen, which I would take all day, every day.

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I agree, good example. Gonzaga has a lot of these guys over the last decade. Michigan St used to as well.

Mitch Henessey said:

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IvanBear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Big12Fan2024 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wright should be our recruiting template -- elite, polished high school players that don't have NBA measurables.

The measurables aren't necessary to win at the college level -- as players like Drew Timme and Norchad Omier prove every year -- and polish goes way farther than raw athleticism/talent.

Give me polish over flash all day, every day. I want core of elite skill players surrounded by project athletes in the hustle roles.

---

Everyone can keep trying to convince me how great Edgecombe is and maybe he will be a NBA all star one day, but Robert Wright runs circles around him as a ready to play college basketball player and will at the end of the year as well.

---

The frustrating part to me is VJ Edgecombe would be an absolute perfect hustle guy. But because of his pedigree, he's being shoehorned into a showcase role he doesn't have the basketball chops to handle efficiently.

With today's performance, he's now shooting 35.8 percent from the field and 26.7 percent from 3. And only today did Roach pass him for the most field goal attempts on the team.

We're basically repeating the exact same mistakes we did with George and Walter. We're not doing these freshmen any favors by exposing them beyond their levels of expertise. And we're actively hurting the team in most cases by doing so.

I don't understand why we can't do what most other elite programs do with elite freshman talent and mold them into the roles that best fit the team. If showcasing/overexposing these players is a condition of getting these guys on campus, I'd rather let them go elsewhere and go back to building our teams the way we did before the national title.

---

I don't understand why elite freshman keep coming here, they come out lower draft picks than they were projected going in, yeah you get the minutes Drew promised you but they don't get materially better throughout the season. At some point you have to make a business decision that sure maybe Baylor's paying me slightly more than (idk use KU as an example) but the coaching I'm getting is going to cost me in the long run.

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This is a patently absurd take. We're not getting guys who are consensus #1 picks coming into the college game, and once you get outside the top 5-6 picks, it becomes a matter of personal preference or team needs that determine draft position. As long as guys who are projected first round picks are still going in the first round (Kendall Brown is the only guy we've had recently who didn't), I don't think you can make this argument without having some type of agenda.

Jarace Walker, who was a one and done at Houston, is having way less professional success than any of the guys we've seen drafted in the first round in the past 5 years. Based on your posting history, I would assume you believe that Kelvin Sampson is a far superior coach to Scott Drew (but please correct me if I'm off on that), so it doesn't seem to be a matter of excellent college coaching making any sort of discernable difference.

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Not sure what my agenda is other than I'm sick of seeing Drew abandon the coaching strategy that got him real success in favor of one that clearly does not work in major college basketball anymore. Calipari being chased out of Kentucky is another great example of going one and done not working.

Claiming it's crap shoot is fine, but Walker was much higher regarded coming in than leaving and same with George. Edgecome will be the exact same as he had a wonderful performance at the Olympics and people loved him, but he is having the exact opposite experience here with us. It's not just limited to these guys though, like you pointed out Kendall Brown busted here, Perry Jones (bused as a one and done) and ended up playing multiple years in college, Quincy Miller came in crazy highly regarded and woof that was bad.

Drew's strength is not the one and done's but he loves to fall into the trap of it, it's disappointing.

I have no strong feelings on Sampson but if you're going to make me compare them they're pretty close. I wouldn't go to a Sampson team if I was a 1st round draft pick out of high school, because he's not that kind of coach anymore, in his old age he's become even more of a grinder, it's brought him a lot of college success though.

Drew and Sampson are pretty evenly matched right now but only because we've got such a down outlook once again this season. You can't win the Natty and follow it up with 3 disappointments and it not impact the way you're viewed. Flipside 2 Final Fours is right now something that I'm not sure Drew will ever get to if he continues this recruiting strategy. I imagine most people would say Sampson is a better coach right now than Drew and that's hard to argue post 2021 his teams have looked better. Sampson might not be as good of a program builder and CEO as drew but he's much better at X's and O's. Coaching isn't all about that though.

If Sampson ever gets a natty though, there won't be a list in the country that wouldn't have him ranked over Drew, and unfortunately right now I think he's got a better season ahead of him (again) than we do. Not really a Sampson fan in any regard though.

I want to see Baylor win, but the product we've put on the court this season thus far does not suggest or project to us having a fun season ahead. Really hoping Drew sees the light a bit and pulls back on going all in on these one and dones. The unexpected one and dones like Sochan and Missi are exactly what we do want, I will never be upset with those types of guys ending up in our program. These high projection guys I do not want though, I'm not seeing them pan out for us, or really most programs when it comes to college success.