Deconstructing from Fundamental Christianity
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Last: 1 yr ago by TexasScientist
I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
Jacket asked you to consider this statement. "the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive." In other words God's love is inclusive which is the overwhelming witness of the scriptures.. Point out a scripture that says God is exclusive.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
Waco1947
MalachiWaco1947 said:Jacket asked you to consider this statement. "the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive." In other words God's love is inclusive which is the overwhelming witness of the scriptures.. Point out a scripture that says God is exclusive.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
1 This is a divine revelation. The Lord spoke his word to Israel through Malachi.
2 "I loved you," says the Lord.
"But you ask, 'How did you love us?'
"Wasn't Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.
4 "The descendants of Esau may say, 'We have been beaten down, but we will rebuild the ruins.'
"Yet, this is what the Lord of Armies says: They may rebuild, but I will tear it down. They will be called 'the Wicked Land' and 'the people with whom the Lord is always angry.' 5 You will see these things with your own eyes and say, 'Even outside the borders of Israel the Lord is great.'
Matthew
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Some people need to ponder that there is coming a time when some parents will be saved and their children will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Even the parents will see G-d's justice in this judgment and they will sing as their children are being separated from those who were saved. They will shout that G-d's judgments are just and true as their children are taken toward torment. They will be grateful that even their children are separated from those who are counted among the righteous.
This is the Gospel too. That the law convicts of sin for those whose hearts have not hardened beyond that point. Those who repent and follow Christ's commands will see salvation. The others will have chosen an eternity of torment and even their friends and relatives will rejoice that they have been removed from Creation.
I'll answer your question if you finally answer mine, which I have repeatedly asked: how do you move the molecules in your brain according to your choice?Waco1947 said:Jacket asked you to consider this statement. "the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive." In other words God's love is inclusive which is the overwhelming witness of the scriptures.. Point out a scripture that says God is exclusive.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
"Lake of Fire". No threats please. God is grace and love.He Hate Me said:MalachiWaco1947 said:Jacket asked you to consider this statement. "the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive." In other words God's love is inclusive which is the overwhelming witness of the scriptures.. Point out a scripture that says God is exclusive.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
1 This is a divine revelation. The Lord spoke his word to Israel through Malachi.
2 "I loved you," says the Lord.
"But you ask, 'How did you love us?'
"Wasn't Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.
4 "The descendants of Esau may say, 'We have been beaten down, but we will rebuild the ruins.'
"Yet, this is what the Lord of Armies says: They may rebuild, but I will tear it down. They will be called 'the Wicked Land' and 'the people with whom the Lord is always angry.' 5 You will see these things with your own eyes and say, 'Even outside the borders of Israel the Lord is great.'
Matthew
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Some people need to ponder that there is coming a time when some parents will be saved and their children will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Even the parents will see G-d's justice in this judgment and they will sing as their children are being separated from those who were saved. They will shout that G-d's judgments are just and true as their children are taken toward torment. They will be grateful that even their children are separated from those who are counted among the righteous.
This is the Gospel too. That the law convicts of sin for those whose hearts have not hardened beyond that point. Those who repent and follow Christ's commands will see salvation. The others will have chosen an eternity of torment and even their friends and relatives will rejoice that they have been removed from Creation.
Waco1947
You are not even that wicked to permit monsters to be around your children. Why would you expect G-d to permit monsters to be around his children for all eternity? Because you don't know or trust what He has said.Waco1947 said:"Lake of Fire". No threats please. God is grace and love.He Hate Me said:MalachiWaco1947 said:Jacket asked you to consider this statement. "the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive." In other words God's love is inclusive which is the overwhelming witness of the scriptures.. Point out a scripture that says God is exclusive.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
1 This is a divine revelation. The Lord spoke his word to Israel through Malachi.
2 "I loved you," says the Lord.
"But you ask, 'How did you love us?'
"Wasn't Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.
4 "The descendants of Esau may say, 'We have been beaten down, but we will rebuild the ruins.'
"Yet, this is what the Lord of Armies says: They may rebuild, but I will tear it down. They will be called 'the Wicked Land' and 'the people with whom the Lord is always angry.' 5 You will see these things with your own eyes and say, 'Even outside the borders of Israel the Lord is great.'
Matthew
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Some people need to ponder that there is coming a time when some parents will be saved and their children will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Even the parents will see G-d's justice in this judgment and they will sing as their children are being separated from those who were saved. They will shout that G-d's judgments are just and true as their children are taken toward torment. They will be grateful that even their children are separated from those who are counted among the righteous.
This is the Gospel too. That the law convicts of sin for those whose hearts have not hardened beyond that point. Those who repent and follow Christ's commands will see salvation. The others will have chosen an eternity of torment and even their friends and relatives will rejoice that they have been removed from Creation.
Waco1947 said:"Lake of Fire". No threats please. God is grace and love.He Hate Me said:MalachiWaco1947 said:Jacket asked you to consider this statement. "the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive." In other words God's love is inclusive which is the overwhelming witness of the scriptures.. Point out a scripture that says God is exclusive.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
1 This is a divine revelation. The Lord spoke his word to Israel through Malachi.
2 "I loved you," says the Lord.
"But you ask, 'How did you love us?'
"Wasn't Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.
4 "The descendants of Esau may say, 'We have been beaten down, but we will rebuild the ruins.'
"Yet, this is what the Lord of Armies says: They may rebuild, but I will tear it down. They will be called 'the Wicked Land' and 'the people with whom the Lord is always angry.' 5 You will see these things with your own eyes and say, 'Even outside the borders of Israel the Lord is great.'
Matthew
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Some people need to ponder that there is coming a time when some parents will be saved and their children will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Even the parents will see G-d's justice in this judgment and they will sing as their children are being separated from those who were saved. They will shout that G-d's judgments are just and true as their children are taken toward torment. They will be grateful that even their children are separated from those who are counted among the righteous.
This is the Gospel too. That the law convicts of sin for those whose hearts have not hardened beyond that point. Those who repent and follow Christ's commands will see salvation. The others will have chosen an eternity of torment and even their friends and relatives will rejoice that they have been removed from Creation.
What if someone doesn't want God's grace and love? Will God force that person to love Him against that person's will?
My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
Do you mean God influenced DNA mutation to arrive at the end product he wanted? Meaning, that it was NOT random, but according to His will?BaylorJacket said:My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Do you mean God influenced DNA mutation to arrive at the end product he wanted? Meaning, that it was NOT random, but according to His will?BaylorJacket said:My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
I have never said Evolution was random, but yes my best guess is that the creator of the universe has or had some control over creation including the process of evolution.
what about justice?Waco1947 said:"Lake of Fire". No threats please. God is grace and love.He Hate Me said:MalachiWaco1947 said:Jacket asked you to consider this statement. "the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive." In other words God's love is inclusive which is the overwhelming witness of the scriptures.. Point out a scripture that says God is exclusive.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
1 This is a divine revelation. The Lord spoke his word to Israel through Malachi.
2 "I loved you," says the Lord.
"But you ask, 'How did you love us?'
"Wasn't Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.
4 "The descendants of Esau may say, 'We have been beaten down, but we will rebuild the ruins.'
"Yet, this is what the Lord of Armies says: They may rebuild, but I will tear it down. They will be called 'the Wicked Land' and 'the people with whom the Lord is always angry.' 5 You will see these things with your own eyes and say, 'Even outside the borders of Israel the Lord is great.'
Matthew
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Some people need to ponder that there is coming a time when some parents will be saved and their children will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Even the parents will see G-d's justice in this judgment and they will sing as their children are being separated from those who were saved. They will shout that G-d's judgments are just and true as their children are taken toward torment. They will be grateful that even their children are separated from those who are counted among the righteous.
This is the Gospel too. That the law convicts of sin for those whose hearts have not hardened beyond that point. Those who repent and follow Christ's commands will see salvation. The others will have chosen an eternity of torment and even their friends and relatives will rejoice that they have been removed from Creation.
Is Mother Teresa equal to Adolph Hitler?
Non-random DNA mutation and/or selection is not scientific Evolution. You are essentially describing Creation.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Do you mean God influenced DNA mutation to arrive at the end product he wanted? Meaning, that it was NOT random, but according to His will?BaylorJacket said:My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
I have never said Evolution was random, but yes my best guess is that the creator of the universe has or had some control over creation including the process of evolution.
Do you believe God IS love, as it says in the bible? If so, how is a defining attribute of a supernatural God something that is naturalistic, i.e. a biochemical reaction?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Non-random DNA mutation and/or selection is not scientific Evolution. You are essentially describing Creation.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Do you mean God influenced DNA mutation to arrive at the end product he wanted? Meaning, that it was NOT random, but according to His will?BaylorJacket said:My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
I have never said Evolution was random, but yes my best guess is that the creator of the universe has or had some control over creation including the process of evolution.
Do you believe God IS love, as it says in the bible? If so, how is a defining attribute of a supernatural God something that is naturalistic, i.e. a biochemical reaction?
Scientific evolution being a random chance driven process is a widespread misconception and the majority (if not nearly all) of evolutionary biologist would agree with that statement.
I am certainly hopeful that God is love, and I'm also fine accepting the (in my opinion) overwhelming evidence that human attributes like love were developed through a process of evolution.
Waco, quick yes-or-no question:
Is God able to do more in this physical world than you can do?
Is God able to do more in this physical world than you can do?
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Evolutionary biologists will concede that Evolution, as in going from single cell organisms to the origin of new species depends on chance DNA mutation; DNA mutation and/or a selection process that is directed by a mind is Intelligent Design, i.e. Creation. That is what you described. What you described is most certainly NOT scientific Evolution.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Non-random DNA mutation and/or selection is not scientific Evolution. You are essentially describing Creation.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Do you mean God influenced DNA mutation to arrive at the end product he wanted? Meaning, that it was NOT random, but according to His will?BaylorJacket said:My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
I have never said Evolution was random, but yes my best guess is that the creator of the universe has or had some control over creation including the process of evolution.
Do you believe God IS love, as it says in the bible? If so, how is a defining attribute of a supernatural God something that is naturalistic, i.e. a biochemical reaction?
Scientific evolution being a random chance driven process is a widespread misconception and the majority (if not nearly all) of evolutionary biologist would agree with that statement.
I am certainly hopeful that God is love, and I'm also fine accepting the (in my opinion) overwhelming evidence that human attributes like love were developed through a process of evolution.
So you don't necessarily believe God is love. You just hope. Regardless, that doesn't answer the question how a supernatural God can be defined by a naturalistic process.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Evolutionary biologists will concede that Evolution, as in going from single cell organisms to the origin of new species depends on chance DNA mutation; DNA mutation and/or a selection process that is directed by a mind is Intelligent Design, i.e. Creation. That is what you described. What you described is most certainly NOT scientific Evolution.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Non-random DNA mutation and/or selection is not scientific Evolution. You are essentially describing Creation.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Do you mean God influenced DNA mutation to arrive at the end product he wanted? Meaning, that it was NOT random, but according to His will?BaylorJacket said:My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
I have never said Evolution was random, but yes my best guess is that the creator of the universe has or had some control over creation including the process of evolution.
Do you believe God IS love, as it says in the bible? If so, how is a defining attribute of a supernatural God something that is naturalistic, i.e. a biochemical reaction?
Scientific evolution being a random chance driven process is a widespread misconception and the majority (if not nearly all) of evolutionary biologist would agree with that statement.
I am certainly hopeful that God is love, and I'm also fine accepting the (in my opinion) overwhelming evidence that human attributes like love were developed through a process of evolution.
So you don't necessarily believe God is love. You just hope. Regardless, that doesn't answer the question how a supernatural God can be defined by a naturalistic process.
I think we may be perhaps using two different definitions of evolution. My knowledge of evolution is that it is simply the change of characteristics of a species over generations. Evolution in itself is not a random process and is even predictable.
Generic Mutations are certainly one of the essential known causes of these changes in characteristics in seceding populations, but so are generic variability and recombination. Regardless, even though gene mutations are classically thought to be random, new findings suggest this is not the case.
Genetic variability events, like recombination, occur randomly.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Evolutionary biologists will concede that Evolution, as in going from single cell organisms to the origin of new species depends on chance DNA mutation; DNA mutation and/or a selection process that is directed by a mind is Intelligent Design, i.e. Creation. That is what you described. What you described is most certainly NOT scientific Evolution.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Non-random DNA mutation and/or selection is not scientific Evolution. You are essentially describing Creation.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Do you mean God influenced DNA mutation to arrive at the end product he wanted? Meaning, that it was NOT random, but according to His will?BaylorJacket said:My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
I have never said Evolution was random, but yes my best guess is that the creator of the universe has or had some control over creation including the process of evolution.
Do you believe God IS love, as it says in the bible? If so, how is a defining attribute of a supernatural God something that is naturalistic, i.e. a biochemical reaction?
Scientific evolution being a random chance driven process is a widespread misconception and the majority (if not nearly all) of evolutionary biologist would agree with that statement.
I am certainly hopeful that God is love, and I'm also fine accepting the (in my opinion) overwhelming evidence that human attributes like love were developed through a process of evolution.
So you don't necessarily believe God is love. You just hope. Regardless, that doesn't answer the question how a supernatural God can be defined by a naturalistic process.
I think we may be perhaps using two different definitions of evolution. My knowledge of evolution is that it is simply the change of characteristics of a species over generations. Evolution in itself is not a random process and is even predictable.
Generic Mutations are certainly one of the essential known causes of these changes in characteristics in seceding populations, but so are generic variability and recombination. Regardless, even though gene mutations are classically thought to be random, new findings suggest this is not the case.
New findings only suggest certain areas of a genome may be more prone to mutation than others. This does not mean that the change that does occur isn't random.
We will just have to agree to disagree on the randomness of evolution.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Genetic variability events, like recombination, %A0occur randomly.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Evolutionary biologists will concede that Evolution, as in going from single cell organisms to the origin of new species depends on chance DNA mutation; DNA mutation and/or a selection process that is directed by a mind is Intelligent Design, i.e. Creation. That is what you described. What you described is most certainly NOT scientific Evolution.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Non-random DNA mutation and/or selection is not scientific Evolution. You are essentially describing Creation.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Do you mean God influenced DNA mutation to arrive at the end product he wanted? Meaning, that it was NOT random, but according to His will?BaylorJacket said:My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity %A0is littered with obvious man made %A0beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting %A0wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe %A0out competing belief systems. Persecuting %A0men women and children with Inquistions, %A0imprisoning folks who believed %A0differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by %A0the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, %A0there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent %A0maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love %A0and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
I have never said Evolution was random, but yes my best guess is that the creator of the universe has or had some control over creation including the process of evolution.
Do you believe God IS love, as it says in the bible? If so, how is a defining attribute of a supernatural God something that is naturalistic, i.e. a biochemical reaction?
Scientific evolution being a random chance driven process is a widespread misconception and the majority (if not nearly all) of evolutionary biologist would agree with that statement.
I am certainly hopeful that God is love, and I'm also fine accepting the (in my opinion) overwhelming evidence that human attributes like love were developed through a process of evolution.
So you don't necessarily believe God is love. You just hope. Regardless, that doesn't answer the question how a supernatural God can be defined by a naturalistic process.
I think we may be perhaps using two different definitions of evolution. My knowledge of evolution is that it is simply the change of characteristics of a species over generations. Evolution in itself is not a random process and is even predictable.
Generic Mutations are certainly one of the essential known causes of these changes in characteristics in seceding populations, but so are generic variability and recombination. Regardless, even though gene mutations are classically thought to be random, new findings suggest this is not the case.
New findings only suggest certain areas of a genome may be more prone to mutation than others. This does not mean that the change that does occur isn't random.
What exactly is your point here though? We know that evolution is true. We know that through a process of evolution over billions of years characteristics have evolved from single cell organisms to human. Are you arguing that organisms evolved for billions of years until God magically gave them qualities like love once they were ready?
I had already made my point. You were the one who incorrectly asserted that scientific evolution was non-random. How can you continue to hold on to this idea now that you've been shown it is untrue?BaylorJacket said:We will just have to agree to disagree on the randomness of evolution.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Genetic variability events, like recombination, %A0occur randomly.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Evolutionary biologists will concede that Evolution, as in going from single cell organisms to the origin of new species depends on chance DNA mutation; DNA mutation and/or a selection process that is directed by a mind is Intelligent Design, i.e. Creation. That is what you described. What you described is most certainly NOT scientific Evolution.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Non-random DNA mutation and/or selection is not scientific Evolution. You are essentially describing Creation.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Do you mean God influenced DNA mutation to arrive at the end product he wanted? Meaning, that it was NOT random, but according to His will?BaylorJacket said:My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity %A0is littered with obvious man made %A0beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting %A0wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe %A0out competing belief systems. Persecuting %A0men women and children with Inquistions, %A0imprisoning folks who believed %A0differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by %A0the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, %A0there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent %A0maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love %A0and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
I have never said Evolution was random, but yes my best guess is that the creator of the universe has or had some control over creation including the process of evolution.
Do you believe God IS love, as it says in the bible? If so, how is a defining attribute of a supernatural God something that is naturalistic, i.e. a biochemical reaction?
Scientific evolution being a random chance driven process is a widespread misconception and the majority (if not nearly all) of evolutionary biologist would agree with that statement.
I am certainly hopeful that God is love, and I'm also fine accepting the (in my opinion) overwhelming evidence that human attributes like love were developed through a process of evolution.
So you don't necessarily believe God is love. You just hope. Regardless, that doesn't answer the question how a supernatural God can be defined by a naturalistic process.
I think we may be perhaps using two different definitions of evolution. My knowledge of evolution is that it is simply the change of characteristics of a species over generations. Evolution in itself is not a random process and is even predictable.
Generic Mutations are certainly one of the essential known causes of these changes in characteristics in seceding populations, but so are generic variability and recombination. Regardless, even though gene mutations are classically thought to be random, new findings suggest this is not the case.
New findings only suggest certain areas of a genome may be more prone to mutation than others. This does not mean that the change that does occur isn't random.
What exactly is your point here though? We know that evolution is true. We know that through a process of evolution over billions of years characteristics have evolved from single cell organisms to human. Are you arguing that organisms evolved for billions of years until God magically gave them qualities like love once they were ready?
And a little while ago, you said your understanding of evolution was change within a species. Now, you are asserting it to be change leading to the origin of new species. Why the change? And now with this, you have absolutely no reason to believe that it was non-random. Because the only scientific evidence you cited pertained only to change within a species. And even then, as I have pointed out, this evidence doesn't even show that the change that does occur isn't random.
My point that I had already made was this: that the "evolution" that you believed in was actually intelligent design - that is, God (a mind) directed the change in genetics and/or the selection pressure. What you believe is most certainly NOT scientific evolution. It is Creation.
And that brings up a point about your last sentence - I don't necessarily believe that, but if you can believe that a God has the supernatural power to direct evolution the way He wants, why then, would it be any less credible to believe that God can instill love whenever He wants?
Let me offer you a better solution to what "love" is, and why it is universal. Because unlike your explanation, where love is merely a biophysical end product of a naturalistic process, where inborn errors of expression and/or continuing mutation might prevent some individuals from having it, which would make it NOT universal - love is a spiritual quality. Because God IS love as the bible says. And God is spirit. Love is a piece of His spirit that we experience on the spiritual plane because we all have souls, which are spirit. This way, it is universal, in that since every person is born with a soul (there are no errors/mistakes like that which happens in the physical realm) we all can experience this love.
Why would this be hard to believe, for someone who says they believe God has the power to direct evolution? Why do you insist "love" must only be a physical quality? And how could a supernatural God be contained in something entirely naturalistic? This is not a logically tenable or coherent set of beliefs.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I had already made my point. You were the one who incorrectly asserted that scientific evolution was non-random. How can you continue to hold on to this idea now that you've been shown it is untrue?BaylorJacket said:We will just have to agree to disagree on the randomness of evolution.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Genetic variability events, like recombination, %A0occur randomly.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Evolutionary biologists will concede that Evolution, as in going from single cell organisms to the origin of new species depends on chance DNA mutation; DNA mutation and/or a selection process that is directed by a mind is Intelligent Design, i.e. Creation. That is what you described. What you described is most certainly NOT scientific Evolution.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Non-random DNA mutation and/or selection is not scientific Evolution. You are essentially describing Creation.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Do you mean God influenced DNA mutation to arrive at the end product he wanted? Meaning, that it was NOT random, but according to His will?BaylorJacket said:My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity %A0is littered with obvious man made %A0beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting %A0wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe %A0out competing belief systems. Persecuting %A0men women and children with Inquistions, %A0imprisoning folks who believed %A0differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by %A0the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, %A0there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent %A0maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love %A0and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
I have never said Evolution was random, but yes my best guess is that the creator of the universe has or had some control over creation including the process of evolution.
Do you believe God IS love, as it says in the bible? If so, how is a defining attribute of a supernatural God something that is naturalistic, i.e. a biochemical reaction?
Scientific evolution being a random chance driven process is a widespread misconception and the majority (if not nearly all) of evolutionary biologist would agree with that statement.
I am certainly hopeful that God is love, and I'm also fine accepting the (in my opinion) overwhelming evidence that human attributes like love were developed through a process of evolution.
So you don't necessarily believe God is love. You just hope. Regardless, that doesn't answer the question how a supernatural God can be defined by a naturalistic process.
I think we may be perhaps using two different definitions of evolution. My knowledge of evolution is that it is simply the change of characteristics of a species over generations. Evolution in itself is not a random process and is even predictable.
Generic Mutations are certainly one of the essential known causes of these changes in characteristics in seceding populations, but so are generic variability and recombination. Regardless, even though gene mutations are classically thought to be random, new findings suggest this is not the case.
New findings only suggest certain areas of a genome may be more prone to mutation than others. This does not mean that the change that does occur isn't random.
What exactly is your point here though? We know that evolution is true. We know that through a process of evolution over billions of years characteristics have evolved from single cell organisms to human. Are you arguing that organisms evolved for billions of years until God magically gave them qualities like love once they were ready?
And a little while ago, you said your understanding of evolution was change within a species. Now, you are asserting it to be change leading to the origin of new species. Why the change? And now with this, you have absolutely no reason to believe that it was non-random. Because the only scientific evidence you cited pertained only to change within a species. And even then, as I have pointed out, this evidence doesn't even show that the change that does occur isn't random.
My point that I had already made was this: that the "evolution" that you believed in was actually intelligent design - that is, God (a mind) directed the change in genetics and/or the selection pressure. What you believe is most certainly NOT scientific evolution. It is Creation.
And that brings up a point about your last sentence - I don't necessarily believe that, but if you can believe that a God has the supernatural power to direct evolution the way He wants, why then, would it be any less credible to believe that God can instill love whenever He wants?
Let me offer you a better solution to what "love" is, and why it is universal. Because unlike your explanation, where love is merely a biophysical end product of a naturalistic process, where inborn errors of expression and/or continuing mutation might prevent some individuals from having it, which would make it NOT universal - love is a spiritual quality. Because God IS love as the bible says. And God is spirit. Love is a piece of His spirit that we experience on the spiritual plane because we all have souls, which are spirit. This way, it is universal, in that since every person is born with a soul (there are no errors/mistakes like that which happens in the physical realm) we all can experience this love.
Why would this be hard to believe, for someone who says they believe God has the power to direct evolution? Why do you insist "love" must only be a physical quality? And how could a supernatural God be contained in something entirely naturalistic? This is not a logically tenable or coherent set of beliefs.
Do you believe in the evolution of species into new/different species?
Into new species that make it a different kind? No, not if without intelligent design.
Do you believe single-celled organisms ultimately led to humans by way of non-directed, non-designed genetic change and natural selection, i.e. spontaneously without intelligent design?
Do you believe single-celled organisms ultimately led to humans by way of non-directed, non-designed genetic change and natural selection, i.e. spontaneously without intelligent design?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Into new species that make it a different kind? No, not if without intelligent design.
Do you believe single-celled organisms ultimately led to humans by way of non-directed, non-designed genetic change and natural selection, i.e. spontaneously without intelligent design?
Do I believe Intelligent Design is required to produce the evidence that we see today of macro-evolution? No. However, I do personally believe God is involved in this process.
Saying it isn't required is like saying winning a million straight hands at poker doesn't require cheating because its mathematically possible.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Into new species that make it a different kind? No, not if without intelligent design.
Do you believe single-celled organisms ultimately led to humans by way of non-directed, non-designed genetic change and natural selection, i.e. spontaneously without intelligent design?
Do I believe Intelligent Design is required to produce the evidence that we see today of macro-evolution? No. However, I do personally believe God is involved in this process.
Since you believe God was involved in the process, you don't believe in scientific evolution. You believe in Intelligent Design, i.e. creation.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Saying it isn't required is like saying winning a million straight hands at poker doesn't require cheating because its mathematically possible.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Into new species that make it a different kind? No, not if without intelligent design.
Do you believe single-celled organisms ultimately led to humans by way of non-directed, non-designed genetic change and natural selection, i.e. spontaneously without intelligent design?
Do I believe Intelligent Design is required to produce the evidence that we see today of macro-evolution? No. However, I do personally believe God is involved in this process.
Since you believe God was involved in the process, you don't believe in scientific evolution. You believe in Intelligent Design, i.e. creation.
Thank you for telling me what I believe lol. At the end of the day, we just have quite different views on Evolution. I respect your position man - who knows, maybe new evidence discovered will lead me back in that direction in the future
What is your view on Santa Claus? The Tooth Fairy?BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Saying it isn't required is like saying winning a million straight hands at poker doesn't require cheating because its mathematically possible.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Into new species that make it a different kind? No, not if without intelligent design.
Do you believe single-celled organisms ultimately led to humans by way of non-directed, non-designed genetic change and natural selection, i.e. spontaneously without intelligent design?
Do I believe Intelligent Design is required to produce the evidence that we see today of macro-evolution? No. However, I do personally believe God is involved in this process.
Since you believe God was involved in the process, you don't believe in scientific evolution. You believe in Intelligent Design, i.e. creation.
At the end of the day, we just have quite different views on Evolution.
He Hate Me said:What is your view on Santa Claus? The Tooth Fairy?BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Saying it isn't required is like saying winning a million straight hands at poker doesn't require cheating because its mathematically possible.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Into new species that make it a different kind? No, not if without intelligent design.
Do you believe single-celled organisms ultimately led to humans by way of non-directed, non-designed genetic change and natural selection, i.e. spontaneously without intelligent design?
Do I believe Intelligent Design is required to produce the evidence that we see today of macro-evolution? No. However, I do personally believe God is involved in this process.
Since you believe God was involved in the process, you don't believe in scientific evolution. You believe in Intelligent Design, i.e. creation.
At the end of the day, we just have quite different views on Evolution.
They are 100% real - my parents wouldn't lie to me
[sarc]Neither would your biology professor.BaylorJacket said:He Hate Me said:What is your view on Santa Claus? The Tooth Fairy?BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Saying it isn't required is like saying winning a million straight hands at poker doesn't require cheating because its mathematically possible.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Into new species that make it a different kind? No, not if without intelligent design.
Do you believe single-celled organisms ultimately led to humans by way of non-directed, non-designed genetic change and natural selection, i.e. spontaneously without intelligent design?
Do I believe Intelligent Design is required to produce the evidence that we see today of macro-evolution? No. However, I do personally believe God is involved in this process.
Since you believe God was involved in the process, you don't believe in scientific evolution. You believe in Intelligent Design, i.e. creation.
At the end of the day, we just have quite different views on Evolution.
They are 100% real - my parents wouldn't lie to me
He Hate Me said:[sarc]Neither would your biology professor.BaylorJacket said:He Hate Me said:What is your view on Santa Claus? The Tooth Fairy?BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Saying it isn't required is like saying winning a million straight hands at poker doesn't require cheating because its mathematically possible.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Into new species that make it a different kind? No, not if without intelligent design.
Do you believe single-celled organisms ultimately led to humans by way of non-directed, non-designed genetic change and natural selection, i.e. spontaneously without intelligent design?
Do I believe Intelligent Design is required to produce the evidence that we see today of macro-evolution? No. However, I do personally believe God is involved in this process.
Since you believe God was involved in the process, you don't believe in scientific evolution. You believe in Intelligent Design, i.e. creation.
At the end of the day, we just have quite different views on Evolution.
They are 100% real - my parents wouldn't lie to me
Blame Baylor then
What are your views on evolution of The A5S?He Hate Me said:What is your view on Santa Claus? The Tooth Fairy?BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Saying it isn't required is like saying winning a million straight hands at poker doesn't require cheating because its mathematically possible.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Into new species that make it a different kind? No, not if without intelligent design.
Do you believe single-celled organisms ultimately led to humans by way of non-directed, non-designed genetic change and natural selection, i.e. spontaneously without intelligent design?
Do I believe Intelligent Design is required to produce the evidence that we see today of macro-evolution? No. However, I do personally believe God is involved in this process.
Since you believe God was involved in the process, you don't believe in scientific evolution. You believe in Intelligent Design, i.e. creation.
At the end of the day, we just have quite different views on Evolution.
How about Jesus's own words, and some of the most iconic verses in scripture?Waco1947 said:Jacket asked you to consider this statement. "the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive." In other words God's love is inclusive which is the overwhelming witness of the scriptures.. Point out a scripture that says God is exclusive.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Actually, we don't "know" that, which is why it's called a theory.BaylorJacket said:We know that through a process of evolution over billions of years characteristics have evolved from single cell organisms to human.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Genetic variability events, like recombination, %A0occur randomly.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Evolutionary biologists will concede that Evolution, as in going from single cell organisms to the origin of new species depends on chance DNA mutation; DNA mutation and/or a selection process that is directed by a mind is Intelligent Design, i.e. Creation. That is what you described. What you described is most certainly NOT scientific Evolution.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Non-random DNA mutation and/or selection is not scientific Evolution. You are essentially describing Creation.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Do you mean God influenced DNA mutation to arrive at the end product he wanted? Meaning, that it was NOT random, but according to His will?BaylorJacket said:My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity %A0is littered with obvious man made %A0beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting %A0wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe %A0out competing belief systems. Persecuting %A0men women and children with Inquistions, %A0imprisoning folks who believed %A0differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by %A0the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, %A0there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent %A0maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love %A0and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
I have never said Evolution was random, but yes my best guess is that the creator of the universe has or had some control over creation including the process of evolution.
Do you believe God IS love, as it says in the bible? If so, how is a defining attribute of a supernatural God something that is naturalistic, i.e. a biochemical reaction?
Scientific evolution being a random chance driven process is a widespread misconception and the majority (if not nearly all) of evolutionary biologist would agree with that statement.
I am certainly hopeful that God is love, and I'm also fine accepting the (in my opinion) overwhelming evidence that human attributes like love were developed through a process of evolution.
So you don't necessarily believe God is love. You just hope. Regardless, that doesn't answer the question how a supernatural God can be defined by a naturalistic process.
I think we may be perhaps using two different definitions of evolution. My knowledge of evolution is that it is simply the change of characteristics of a species over generations. Evolution in itself is not a random process and is even predictable.
Generic Mutations are certainly one of the essential known causes of these changes in characteristics in seceding populations, but so are generic variability and recombination. Regardless, even though gene mutations are classically thought to be random, new findings suggest this is not the case.
New findings only suggest certain areas of a genome may be more prone to mutation than others. This does not mean that the change that does occur isn't random.
Mothra said:Actually, we don't "know" that, which is why it's called a theory.BaylorJacket said:We know that through a process of evolution over billions of years characteristics have evolved from single cell organisms to human.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Genetic variability events, like recombination, %A0occur randomly.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Evolutionary biologists will concede that Evolution, as in going from single cell organisms to the origin of new species depends on chance DNA mutation; DNA mutation and/or a selection process that is directed by a mind is Intelligent Design, i.e. Creation. That is what you described. What you described is most certainly NOT scientific Evolution.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Non-random DNA mutation and/or selection is not scientific Evolution. You are essentially describing Creation.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Do you mean God influenced DNA mutation to arrive at the end product he wanted? Meaning, that it was NOT random, but according to His will?BaylorJacket said:My apologies for just now getting back to you. Thank you for further explaining.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity %A0is littered with obvious man made %A0beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting %A0wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe %A0out competing belief systems. Persecuting %A0men women and children with Inquistions, %A0imprisoning folks who believed %A0differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by %A0the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, %A0there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent %A0maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love %A0and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
I do believe that love can both be a product of evolution and related to God. The genetic variations on which natural selection acts on may occur randomly (at least, that's the best way to currently model them), but natural selection/evolution itself is not random. At times, evolution can even be predictable as organisms evolve to survive what nature throws at it. Evolution in this case is God's mechanism for developing this subconscious drive. Sorry, I didn't mean to give off the idea that I believe evolution is separate from God.
For love being a high virtue, I think the answer can be pursued best through philosophy and spirituality. In Christianity, love and forgiveness is at the center of the radical message of Christ. Paul even directly calls it the greatest virtue in 1 Corinthians. I find it incredible that as humanity has grown and evolved, our ability to love has as well.
I have never said Evolution was random, but yes my best guess is that the creator of the universe has or had some control over creation including the process of evolution.
Do you believe God IS love, as it says in the bible? If so, how is a defining attribute of a supernatural God something that is naturalistic, i.e. a biochemical reaction?
Scientific evolution being a random chance driven process is a widespread misconception and the majority (if not nearly all) of evolutionary biologist would agree with that statement.
I am certainly hopeful that God is love, and I'm also fine accepting the (in my opinion) overwhelming evidence that human attributes like love were developed through a process of evolution.
So you don't necessarily believe God is love. You just hope. Regardless, that doesn't answer the question how a supernatural God can be defined by a naturalistic process.
I think we may be perhaps using two different definitions of evolution. My knowledge of evolution is that it is simply the change of characteristics of a species over generations. Evolution in itself is not a random process and is even predictable.
Generic Mutations are certainly one of the essential known causes of these changes in characteristics in seceding populations, but so are generic variability and recombination. Regardless, even though gene mutations are classically thought to be random, new findings suggest this is not the case.
New findings only suggest certain areas of a genome may be more prone to mutation than others. This does not mean that the change that does occur isn't random.
It is an indisputable fact that organisms have evolved during the history of life on earth. A scientific theory is not just a mere stab in the dark or hypothesis, but something that can be and has been consistently tested and corroborated in accordance with the scientific method.
Evolution as a scientific theory has more evidence and is more proven than the theory of gravity.
I believe God's love is universal, and we all benefit from the universal love He has for His creation, however to find His eternal love, eternal life in Heaven is very exclusive, and does rely on our faith in His Son Jesus.Waco1947 said:Jacket asked you to consider this statement. "the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive." In other words God's love is inclusive which is the overwhelming witness of the scriptures.. Point out a scripture that says God is exclusive.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I take it that my answer was satisfactory. Now I would like you to expand more on something:BaylorJacket said:Would you be able to expand more on this? I fail to see how the evolutionary development process of love would cause it to not be inclusive. If anything, I see it the other way around.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:If love is merely the product of evolution, it is not and can not be universal or inclusive to all.BaylorJacket said:Ursus Americanus said:What is love?BaylorJacket said:joseywales said:
I have realized how ignorant I was to be following a superstion that was formed thousands of years ago when we knew nothing about how we got here how big the universe is and all the amazing discoveries about our earth and mankind , dna , evolution, etc we have had in last 20 years.
All religion is a man-made cultural tradition, built by the worst form of brainwashing , doing it to children before they can think for themselves. The history of Christianity is littered with obvious man made beliefs that originally came from other forms of religion from that time.
The actions of xhristians in history made sure it stuck around by conducting wars to wipe out or attempt to wipe out competing belief systems. Persecuting men women and children with Inquistions, imprisoning folks who believed differently etc.
The nature of mankind is to be superstitions, as we can see today by the millions of folks ignoring facts that directly contradict the belief of a personal God who judges you for an eternity based on the belief that God came down in man's form. This is an idea and a practice that was around thousands of years before Christianity.
I guess the earth is flat and aliens are among us and all science is only believed when it helps you and or your family. I guess the millions who die innocently each year from starvation and disease are just not seen by the all knowing god.
It is out there in plain sight, there is no personal God that many of man's religions claim. There may be a creator or a higher power and some intelligent maker of all life, but as mankind we cannot know or begin to comprehend what that complexity means..Live in love and respect and treasure your 2 seconds on this planet because most likely that is all we have
There is nothing wrong with not living forever, there probably no such thing. Be a candle in the dark..
Thank you for your thoughts. I learn more into the hope of an all loving God, but agree that the tangible evidence is there that does not always make that an easy thing to believe.
Live in love - 100%.
If God claims to be love then how can an atheist claim love since it's a concept that they certainly won't share on Christian terms?
A believer and non believer can't even define love the same, they occupy two different realities of humanity.
From a foundational and a presuppositional perspective there is no neutral interpretation of anything about being human that is shared between a Christian and non Christian.
One believes in a sovereign God and the other in nihilistic chance, they do not even experience basic day to day relationships the same with that chasm in perspective.
Not sure if you're inferring that I'm an atheist, but that is far from the truth. Regardless, Christians do not own "love". It is something that is universal and inclusive to all.
If you're seriously asking what love is, it's a subconscious drive that evolved millions of years ago that affects the biochemistry all over the brain. Philosophically, I believe it is ever growing and evolving in nature as we better understand Christ.
A believer and non-believer can certainly both experience God's love.
If love, according to you, is merely a product of evolution, that is to say, merely a biophysical end product resulting from random DNA mutation and natural selection in humans, then how is "love" related to God? When you say "God's love" or when you describe God as "all-loving", how does God have something that randomly arose in the genetics of humans? How could God's character be composed of a purely naturalistic, chance product?
Defining love in purely naturalistic terms and then extolling it as a virtue of God that we must emulate is completely absurd; it makes no sense. Can you explain? Also, on what basis do you believe that "love" is some kind of high virtue that we must ascribe to, as opposed to say, xenophobia, which also is a product of chance human evolution just the same as love?
Few people find His eternal love and Eternal life through Him, the Bible says this. I find that to be exclusive.Quote:
13Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to [url=https://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm][/url]life, and only a few [url=https://biblehub.com/greek/1510.htm][/url][url=https://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm][/url]find it. 15Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.…
I haven't been keeping up with the direction of the thread, just forwarded to the last page, so if this is a different subject, I apologise.
I'm not telling you what you what you believe, you are doing that yourself. You're being a little wishy-washy about it, but it's there, and I'm just defining it.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Saying it isn't required is like saying winning a million straight hands at poker doesn't require cheating because its mathematically possible.BaylorJacket said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Into new species that make it a different kind? No, not if without intelligent design.
Do you believe single-celled organisms ultimately led to humans by way of non-directed, non-designed genetic change and natural selection, i.e. spontaneously without intelligent design?
Do I believe Intelligent Design is required to produce the evidence that we see today of macro-evolution? No. However, I do personally believe God is involved in this process.
Since you believe God was involved in the process, you don't believe in scientific evolution. You believe in Intelligent Design, i.e. creation.
Thank you for telling me what I believe lol. At the end of the day, we just have quite different views on Evolution. I respect your position man - who knows, maybe new evidence discovered will lead me back in that direction in the future
Are you saying you DON'T believe in Intelligent Design, i.e. Creation?