Doc Holliday said:

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BREAKING: Biden at a Democrat Fundraiser tonight said Putin is 'not joking' about tactical nuclear weapons; 'Armageddon' risk at highest level since Cuban Missile Crisis.

— Benny Johnson (@bennyjohnson) October 7, 2022

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I ordered, and recently received, my potassium iodide pills shortly after Biden was inaugurated. I could see where this show was headed.

He Hate Me said:

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I ordered, and recently received, my potassium iodide pills shortly after Biden was inaugurated. I could see where this show was headed.

---

Really, or was this for our football season, just in case

ATL Bear said:

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I remember when the Russians just tried to poison their way to power in Ukraine. That used to be considered a bad thing until this new strain of "Russia free to bully because America is bad" line of thinking emerged.

---

The line of thinking is "Let's get a peace deal together asap since our current President just acknowledged that the world is teetering on the brink of nuclear armageddon".

This is all worth mushroom clouds?

Zelensky this week: " "We need pre-emptive strikes, so that they'll know what will happen to them if they use nukes, and not the other way around. Don't wait for Russia's nuclear strikes, and then say, oh, since you did this, take that from us!"

So are these radical fears or are the very guys in charge lying?

Canada2017 said:

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whiterock said:

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Canada2017 said:

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whiterock said:

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Canada2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Promoting courses of action that probably will result in the death of others without stepping up to the plate is bull*****

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Here we are.

---

Vividly remember this same kind of naive group think as the Vietnam War rolled in.

Step by incredibly stupid step. First just weapons, then just 'advisors'...then 500,000 troops and almost 60,000 KIA.

As long as someone else was doing the fighting and getting shot up or killed ...the John Wayne mentally was immensely popular.

Guess what ? It didn't stay 'popular' once the caskets began coming in by the hundreds .

Keeping this simple for all you John Wayne fans .

IF RUSSIA PLAYED THIS SAME GEOPOLITICAL GAME WITH MEXICO the response of the United States would be damn well similar .

We have been led by the nose by the Democratic party ...step by predictable step...into a possible nuclear war.



This is the real deal...no video game 'overs' .

---

Again, we literally had the same situation in Central America and didn't do what you're saying we would.

But I'm someone who's been close to the horrors of war, so you can back off the John Wayne and video game comment. The massacres of being out armed by ruthless enemies results in immense brutality. And Russia's got a serious track record of this. I don't want US boots on the ground, but I'm ok giving resources to help defend themselves.

---

This is nothing like Viet Nam. This is a sovereign nation asking for help from invasion. This is not stepping into a poliical civil war. Ukraine is a stable Govt, Viet Nam had 12 govts in 2 years. There is no Gulf of Tonkin incident. There is no draft. To say this is Viet Nam is ridiculous and showsa lack of understanding.

The US is providing assistance, there are no US service men fighting in Ukraine. Ukraine does not want someone else to fight for their Nation, they are doing that themselves.

A Soverign nation the west has courted from decades asks for help, you help.

---

Vietnam began as 'weapons support '….then 'advisors on the ground '….then finally 500,000 troops deployed .

We are STILL in South Korea 30,000 strong SEVENTY years after a truce was established.

Iraq is still a mess 5000 US dead later and Iran empowered .

After billions spent in Afghanistan and years of dead US servicemen the Biden Administration just abandoned 4-5 BILLION dollars worth of weaponry to the Taliban….an acknowledged terrorist organization.

When the **** are you going to figure it out ?

Being the worlds policeman is not a winning proposition and the US isn't any good at it to begin with ,

---

we're doing a pretty good job in Ukraine right now....

---

Thousands of Ukrainian civilians and solders dead .

Countryside burned , cities flattened , millions of refugees forced out of their homes into other countries .

Billions of US dollars spent while hundreds of thousands of our own mentally ill are living ( and dying ) on the streets .

But hey Ukraine officially applied for NATO membership !


All worth it .

US foreign policy continues to rock .

---

of course it's worth it. that's why Ukrainians are willing to die for it. Freedom does tend to inspire.

The "NATO started" it argument has some shocking faulty assumptions, chief among which is the notion that Ukrainians are stooge drones who are only fighting because Nato is making them do it.

---

US interference in Ukrainian political power struggles began in earnest during the Obama administration.

Putin objected considering it another blatant example of US regime change policy.

Under Ukraine's new president the chatter begins about joining NATO. Again Putin objects as such an alliance would in all likelihood bring NATO weaponry , aimed at Russia , on Ukrainian soil .

One can sing ' God Bless America ' at the top of your lungs but it doesn't change the reality of the situation or the United States ' s responsibility for the destruction .

We pushed and pushed . Never really believing Putin's threats .

Classic miscalculation.

Now we are STILL pushing ……( anyone who thinks the Russians blew up their own pipelines shouldn't own a driver's license ) and ignoring Putin's repeated threats to use nuclear weapons.




And all of this horror involving a country 90% of the American people couldn't have found on a world map 2 years ago .


Insanity

---

in bold contains a premise error.

We did not interfere in Ukrainian politics and turn a happy, stable, Russia-friendly regime which well-represented the sensibilities of its peoples into an avatar that your argument presumes: a regime bent on making Ukraine an EU clone against the will of its peoples.

Ukrainians revolted and for days faced small-arms fire from police and armed forces, almost unarmed.
US meddling did not create that outrage out of whole cloth. Did not direct it, either.

The Mearsheimer argument that Russia has legitimate concerns about Nato/EU expansion is valid, but not dispositive. Ukrainians do get a say in their future. And the nations to the west of Ukraine are not obligated, morally or legally, to stifle their sensibilities to give Russia a free hand to be Tsarist Russia.

Russia should pay a steep price for what it is doing in Ukraine.
Modernity has its flaws, but it is quite the improvement over the 18th century.

Oldbear83 said:

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Canada2017: "Each and every one of FDR's moves was in direct conflict with the will of the US people...at least initially "

Eerie how similar that sounds to Wilson prior to 1917.

Want a war? You'll get one.

Don't want a war? You'll get one anyway.

---

Wilson, FDR, Bush Sr, Truman, even Reagan all reacted to others aggression. They did not invade another soverign nation first. There is a difference. That is where my problem is with Bush Jr, we invaded Iraq.

whiterock said:

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Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Promoting courses of action that probably will result in the death of others without stepping up to the plate is bull*****

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Here we are.

---

Vividly remember this same kind of naive group think as the Vietnam War rolled in.

Step by incredibly stupid step. First just weapons, then just 'advisors'...then 500,000 troops and almost 60,000 KIA.

As long as someone else was doing the fighting and getting shot up or killed ...the John Wayne mentally was immensely popular.

Guess what ? It didn't stay 'popular' once the caskets began coming in by the hundreds .

Keeping this simple for all you John Wayne fans .

IF RUSSIA PLAYED THIS SAME GEOPOLITICAL GAME WITH MEXICO the response of the United States would be damn well similar .

We have been led by the nose by the Democratic party ...step by predictable step...into a possible nuclear war.



This is the real deal...no video game 'overs' .

---

Again, we literally had the same situation in Central America and didn't do what you're saying we would.

But I'm someone who's been close to the horrors of war, so you can back off the John Wayne and video game comment. The massacres of being out armed by ruthless enemies results in immense brutality. And Russia's got a serious track record of this. I don't want US boots on the ground, but I'm ok giving resources to help defend themselves.

---

This is nothing like Viet Nam. This is a sovereign nation asking for help from invasion. This is not stepping into a poliical civil war. Ukraine is a stable Govt, Viet Nam had 12 govts in 2 years. There is no Gulf of Tonkin incident. There is no draft. To say this is Viet Nam is ridiculous and showsa lack of understanding.

The US is providing assistance, there are no US service men fighting in Ukraine. Ukraine does not want someone else to fight for their Nation, they are doing that themselves.

A Soverign nation the west has courted from decades asks for help, you help.

---

Vietnam began as 'weapons support '….then 'advisors on the ground '….then finally 500,000 troops deployed .

We are STILL in South Korea 30,000 strong SEVENTY years after a truce was established.

Iraq is still a mess 5000 US dead later and Iran empowered .

After billions spent in Afghanistan and years of dead US servicemen the Biden Administration just abandoned 4-5 BILLION dollars worth of weaponry to the Taliban….an acknowledged terrorist organization.

When the **** are you going to figure it out ?

Being the worlds policeman is not a winning proposition and the US isn't any good at it to begin with ,

---

we're doing a pretty good job in Ukraine right now....

---

Thousands of Ukrainian civilians and solders dead .

Countryside burned , cities flattened , millions of refugees forced out of their homes into other countries .

Billions of US dollars spent while hundreds of thousands of our own mentally ill are living ( and dying ) on the streets .

But hey Ukraine officially applied for NATO membership !


All worth it .

US foreign policy continues to rock .

---

of course it's worth it. that's why Ukrainians are willing to die for it. Freedom does tend to inspire.

The "NATO started" it argument has some shocking faulty assumptions, chief among which is the notion that Ukrainians are stooge drones who are only fighting because Nato is making them do it.

---

US interference in Ukrainian political power struggles began in earnest during the Obama administration.

Putin objected considering it another blatant example of US regime change policy.

Under Ukraine's new president the chatter begins about joining NATO. Again Putin objects as such an alliance would in all likelihood bring NATO weaponry , aimed at Russia , on Ukrainian soil .

One can sing ' God Bless America ' at the top of your lungs but it doesn't change the reality of the situation or the United States ' s responsibility for the destruction .

We pushed and pushed . Never really believing Putin's threats .

Classic miscalculation.



Now we are STILL pushing ……( anyone who thinks the Russians blew up their own pipelines shouldn't own a driver's license ) and ignoring Putin's repeated threats to use nuclear weapons.




And all of this horror involving a country 90% of the American people couldn't have found on a world map 2 years ago .


Insanity

---

in bold contains a premise error.

We did not interfere in Ukrainian politics and turn a happy, stable, Russia-friendly regime which well-represented the sensibilities of its peoples into an avatar that your argument presumes: a regime bent on making Ukraine an EU clone against the will of its peoples.

Ukrainians revolted and for days faced small-arms fire from police and armed forces, almost unarmed.
US meddling did not create that outrage out of whole cloth. Did not direct it, either.

The Mearsheimer argument that Russia has legitimate concerns about Nato/EU expansion is valid, but not dispositive. Ukrainians do get a say in their future. And the nations to the west of Ukraine are not obligated, morally or legally, to stifle their sensibilities to give Russia a free hand to be Tsarist Russia.

Russia should pay a steep price for what it is doing in Ukraine.
Modernity has its flaws, but it is quite the improvement over the 18th century.

---

In the non-insanity world, according to this logic. Putin and Xi get to determine National policy for who they want.

Ukraine wants to align Wst and join NATO they can't because it upsets Putin. Finland and Sweden can't join either, Putin will get mad.

Taiwan sorry, you must follow Hong Kongs fate. Why? It does not matter what your population of millions or Government desire, because Xi says no.

That is not insanity????

Canada2017 said:

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trey3216 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Dude, my father was active duty US Navy during those times.

I love FDR but he fully understood the US people did NOT want to fight Germany in 1940 and Britain was in dire need of our help. The Royal Navy was stretched thin so Roosevelt quietly ordered the US Navy TO ESCORT MERCHANT SHIPS AND FIGHT GERMAM U-BOATS attempting to stop those merchant ships.

No declaration of war , but at least one US destroyer was sunk with dozens of sailors killed. Our long range scout planes were also working in cooperation with the British .

All without the approval of the American people.

The oil embargo against Japan left them 2 options .....either end their occupation / war against China or invade the Dutch oil fields in the Far East. to get the necessary oil. Of course the Japanese clearly understood such an attack against these Dutch oil fields would bring on war with the British and Americans.........so they elected for the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

That part in bold is correct, and analogous to the Ukrainian situation.

I would maintain that we were right to emplace the embargo against Japan, that we had no obligation to continue to sell oil to a nation engaging in foreign policy that was hostile to our interests, and that such an embargo would not force any action on Japan, just choices. THEY could have decided that the embargo was a signal that continuing the war they started was unacceptable to a supply chain they depended upon. THEY could have made other policy choices that would not have force the US into war. Japan, you see, was not forced into war. They were willing to engage in war to get what they wanted, and chose to take actions they so well understood would cause a war that they decided to initiate that war to gain an upper hand in it. To have not emplaced the embargo in a situation where continued Japanese actions were inimical to US interests would have been appeasement. Appeasement has a pretty bad track record in avoiding war.

I would similarly maintain that we are right to provide arms/ammo to Ukraine, that we have no obligation to help Russia engage in foreign policy that is hostile to our interests. Russia, like Japan, is engaged in foreign policy that will continue to invite conflict with Nato. Appeasement (giving Russia free hand in Ukraine) will only make Russia stronger when that conflict with Nato arrives. Russia could realize that it cannot win in Ukraine and withdraw. Or it can double down on policy that will only invite more conflict with Nato. Russia's choice. We are not the bad guys for standing on reasonable ground and saying "I don't think so, Tim."

The Mearsheimer argument has a hard time defending against the accusation that it presumes NATO interests are subordinate to Russian interests. In fact, it tends to studiously avoid the question of exactly where are the boundaries of US and European interests.

WE have interests, too.
Russia reincorporation of Ukraine is unacceptable to us.
Putin will have to put that in his pipe and smoke it.

Doc Holliday said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Thousands of Ukrainian civilians and solders dead .

Countryside burned , cities flattened , millions of refugees forced out of their homes into other countries .

Billions of US dollars spent while hundreds of thousands of our own mentally ill are living ( and dying ) on the streets .

But hey Ukraine officially applied for NATO membership !


All worth it .

US foreign policy continues to rock .

---

of course it's worth it. that's why Ukrainians are willing to die for it. Freedom does tend to inspire.

The "NATO started" it argument has some shocking faulty assumptions, chief among which is the notion that Ukrainians are stooge drones who are only fighting because Nato is making them do it.

---

The Ukranians want and are willing to fight for their own Nation. They returned all the nukes that were there in the 90's, which they helped pay for, in exchange for Soverignty. Russia agreed. Now to attack Crimea and Ukraine after Ukraine lived up to their end of deal is reprehensible.

I am partial, I helped get two Ukranian Nationals legally out and to the US and have spoken with them about the situation. It is horrific what the Russians do and how they operate. Ukraine has the ability to add positively to NATO and the EU, we have invested in a lit of nations with much less up side than Ukraine.

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exchanged for sovereignty an assurances of assistance if invaded..... USA is making good on a pledge. The right pledge, the right place, in mostly the right ways.

Ukrainians have firmly decided as a peoples that they wish to become part of Europe rather than Eurasia. The American ethos is that peoples are entitled to decide and act on questions like that. We should continue to provide arms & ammo to Ukraine, until there are no more Ukrainians asking for arms and ammo. The dishonor would be to abandon them on the battlefield.

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Should we do what Zelensky wants?

NEW - Ukraine's Zelensky calls on NATO to launch "preemptive strikes" against Russia to "eliminate the possibility" of a Russian nuclear strike.pic.twitter.com/gj6mSRZfFF

— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) October 6, 2022

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Zelensky can say whatever he wants for domestic or foreign purposes.
It doesn't obligate us to do anything.
And he knows that.

Canada2017 said:

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cowboycwr said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

How does anyone know the information they're getting about this war is accurate?

---

Why do you think you should have more information than what you are getting?

---

Indeed........everyone just shut up and trust this Administration to keep us out of war.






Gulf of Tonkin

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction

Undeclared US Navy war against Germany 1940-1941.

Embargo preventing the sale of US oil to Japan

CIA assassinations throughout central America .

Eliminating enemies of the Shah of Iran keeping him in power against the wished of the people.

Bay of Pigs

B 52 strikes in Cambodia

North Sea pipelines








Yep, we are the 'good' guys. Don't trust anyone who questions it.

---

The two in bold are especially revisionist. My God man.

---

Dude, my father was active duty US Navy during those times.

I love FDR but he fully understood the US people did NOT want to fight Germany in 1940 and Britain was in dire need of our help. The Royal Navy was stretched thin so Roosevelt quietly ordered the US Navy TO ESCORT MERCHANT SHIPS AND FIGHT GERMAM U-BOATS attempting to stop those merchant ships.

No declaration of war , but at least one US destroyer was sunk with dozens of sailors killed. Our long range scout planes were also working in cooperation with the British .

All without the approval of the American people.

The oil embargo against Japan left them 2 options .....either end their occupation / war against China or invade the Dutch oil fields in the Far East. to get the necessary oil. Of course the Japanese clearly understood such an attack against these Dutch oil fields would bring on war with the British and Americans.........so they elected for the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

so much wrong in your post.

Germany actually started it forcing FDR to issue the shoot on sight. First a German U-boat attempted to get into firing position on a US Destroyer picking up survivors of a sunken freighter. Then another U-boat fired on a different destroyer who dropped depth charges in response.

Then FDR issued the order.

And Germany sunk US merchants/oil tankers.

So there was no "undeclared war" but rather a defend yourself/Americans order.

As for Japan they could have invaded the Dutch East Indies and began a war with England but the US would not have stepped up and declared war at that time.

---

FDR ( rightly ) despised Hitler and Nazism .

However the vast majority of Americans wanted no part of a 2nd war in Europe after the widespread disillusionment felt with the conduct and post war results of WW1.

Most American wanted to focus on building up US defenses ( which had been allowed to crumble during the Great Depression ) . Charles Lindbergh was one of the most prominent spokesmen of the America First movement .

FDR had other ideas.

FDR invented 'Lend Lease' which circumvented US law prohibiting the supply of weapons to European belligerents . Huge amounts of supplies were transported through the Atlantic Ocean war zone to England .
Even to the point of giving England FIFTY destroyers out of our reserve 'mothball ' fleet . Those ships were put to immediate use by England in their desperate fight against German submarines . US warships actively escorted merchant ships ( with their war supplies for England ) to a mid point in the Atlantic Ocean where the Royal Navy then took over the escorting responsibilities .

In addition the US Army Air Force was actively scouting the Atlantic Ocean for German shipping and supplying the information to the Royal Navy . It was a US scout plane that discovered the location of the German battleship Bismarck which led to its eventual destruction and the death of thousands of German sailors .

The US even invaded Iceland in order 'to prevent Iceland's occupation by Germany '.

All while the United States claimed to be a neutral country !

Have no idea what you are attempting to say about the Dutch East Indies.

---

Normally, studious neutrality is a strategic ploy to overcome weakness, countries so small they can just hunker down and let power geopolitics pass them by. Such is facilitated when one has no resources and is not in a strategic location. (like Switzerland, Finland.)

But Holland and Belgium can't do that. They are indeed totally lacking in population, industry, strategic depth to stand against larger powers, but they have the curse of being in strategically important locations....invasion routes. They are going to get invaded. Again and again and again....

The US is an entirely different animal. We are an enormously powerful country, coasts on two oceans, interests all around the globe. Few international conflicts of any significance fail to touch the hem of our cloth. So we cannot just hunker down and let events flow past us in order to avoid tough decisions. We have to decide when, where, and how we are going to deal with a problem.

We are not Switzerland. Or Belgium. We are that one country everyone has to factor into their calculations. We can define neutrality as loosely as we want or need to. Leasing/selling old warships to a strategic ally? Holland couldn't do that. Someone would take them out to rid themselves of an annoyance. But we are not an annoyance. We are the great big immovable object that, if provoked, can become an irresitable force. And if an opposing power doesn't like it, what are they going to do? Attack us?

People have tried that.
It didn't work out well for them.

In the world of power geopolitics, we are THE geopolitical power. In ALL CAPS.
We are a great big sleeping dragon.
With a "Don't Tread on Me" sign hanging around our neck.

We are teaching Russia that lesson now, again.
Some people never learn.

Prior to the end of WW2 in 1945 the Japanese Army dominated political power in Japan.

Tojo considered himself an Army general first and prime minister of Japan second . And the Army would have never allowed any civilian politician to cause the Army to 'lose face'.

FDR advisors understood this and still manipulated Japan into attacking the US first .

It was a huge risk….as it came at a time when the US Navy was already fighting it's undeclared war against German submarines in the Atlantic..

Result was a 2 ocean war the US was under equipped to fight .

Only the immense industrial capacity of the US and the enormous Russian Army made victory possible .

Biden is pushing the US step by step into a war with Russia in a similar fashion as FDR.

Only this time both protagonists have hydrogen bombs.

Bombs that make the weapons that leveled Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like mere firecrackers in comparison.



Insanity

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Promoting courses of action that probably will result in the death of others without stepping up to the plate is bull*****

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Here we are.

---

Vividly remember this same kind of naive group think as the Vietnam War rolled in.

Step by incredibly stupid step. First just weapons, then just 'advisors'...then 500,000 troops and almost 60,000 KIA.

As long as someone else was doing the fighting and getting shot up or killed ...the John Wayne mentally was immensely popular.

Guess what ? It didn't stay 'popular' once the caskets began coming in by the hundreds .

Keeping this simple for all you John Wayne fans .

IF RUSSIA PLAYED THIS SAME GEOPOLITICAL GAME WITH MEXICO the response of the United States would be damn well similar .

We have been led by the nose by the Democratic party ...step by predictable step...into a possible nuclear war.



This is the real deal...no video game 'overs' .

---

Again, we literally had the same situation in Central America and didn't do what you're saying we would.

But I'm someone who's been close to the horrors of war, so you can back off the John Wayne and video game comment. The massacres of being out armed by ruthless enemies results in immense brutality. And Russia's got a serious track record of this. I don't want US boots on the ground, but I'm ok giving resources to help defend themselves.

---

This is nothing like Viet Nam. This is a sovereign nation asking for help from invasion. This is not stepping into a poliical civil war. Ukraine is a stable Govt, Viet Nam had 12 govts in 2 years. There is no Gulf of Tonkin incident. There is no draft. To say this is Viet Nam is ridiculous and showsa lack of understanding.

The US is providing assistance, there are no US service men fighting in Ukraine. Ukraine does not want someone else to fight for their Nation, they are doing that themselves.

A Soverign nation the west has courted from decades asks for help, you help.

---

Vietnam began as 'weapons support '….then 'advisors on the ground '….then finally 500,000 troops deployed .

We are STILL in South Korea 30,000 strong SEVENTY years after a truce was established.

Iraq is still a mess 5000 US dead later and Iran empowered .

After billions spent in Afghanistan and years of dead US servicemen the Biden Administration just abandoned 4-5 BILLION dollars worth of weaponry to the Taliban….an acknowledged terrorist organization.

When the **** are you going to figure it out ?

Being the worlds policeman is not a winning proposition and the US isn't any good at it to begin with ,

---

we're doing a pretty good job in Ukraine right now....

---

Thousands of Ukrainian civilians and solders dead .

Countryside burned , cities flattened , millions of refugees forced out of their homes into other countries .

Billions of US dollars spent while hundreds of thousands of our own mentally ill are living ( and dying ) on the streets .

But hey Ukraine officially applied for NATO membership !


All worth it .

US foreign policy continues to rock .

---

of course it's worth it. that's why Ukrainians are willing to die for it. Freedom does tend to inspire.

The "NATO started" it argument has some shocking faulty assumptions, chief among which is the notion that Ukrainians are stooge drones who are only fighting because Nato is making them do it.

---

US interference in Ukrainian political power struggles began in earnest during the Obama administration.

Putin objected considering it another blatant example of US regime change policy.

Under Ukraine's new president the chatter begins about joining NATO. Again Putin objects as such an alliance would in all likelihood bring NATO weaponry , aimed at Russia , on Ukrainian soil .

One can sing ' God Bless America ' at the top of your lungs but it doesn't change the reality of the situation or the United States ' s responsibility for the destruction .

We pushed and pushed . Never really believing Putin's threats .

Classic miscalculation.



Now we are STILL pushing ……( anyone who thinks the Russians blew up their own pipelines shouldn't own a driver's license ) and ignoring Putin's repeated threats to use nuclear weapons.




And all of this horror involving a country 90% of the American people couldn't have found on a world map 2 years ago .


Insanity

---

in bold contains a premise error.

We did not interfere in Ukrainian politics and turn a happy, stable, Russia-friendly regime which well-represented the sensibilities of its peoples into an avatar that your argument presumes: a regime bent on making Ukraine an EU clone against the will of its peoples.

Ukrainians revolted and for days faced small-arms fire from police and armed forces, almost unarmed.
US meddling did not create that outrage out of whole cloth. Did not direct it, either.

The Mearsheimer argument that Russia has legitimate concerns about Nato/EU expansion is valid, but not dispositive. Ukrainians do get a say in their future. And the nations to the west of Ukraine are not obligated, morally or legally, to stifle their sensibilities to give Russia a free hand to be Tsarist Russia.

Russia should pay a steep price for what it is doing in Ukraine.
Modernity has its flaws, but it is quite the improvement over the 18th century.

---

In the non-insanity world, according to this logic. Putin and Xi get to determine National policy for who they want.

Ukraine wants to align Wst and join NATO they can't because it upsets Putin. Finland and Sweden can't join either, Putin will get mad.

Taiwan sorry, you must follow Hong Kongs fate. Why? It does not matter what your population of millions or Government desire, because Xi says no.

That is not insanity????

---

Fly that rainbow flag proudly, to keep the pronoun police away!

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Promoting courses of action that probably will result in the death of others without stepping up to the plate is bull*****

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Here we are.

---

Vividly remember this same kind of naive group think as the Vietnam War rolled in.

Step by incredibly stupid step. First just weapons, then just 'advisors'...then 500,000 troops and almost 60,000 KIA.

As long as someone else was doing the fighting and getting shot up or killed ...the John Wayne mentally was immensely popular.

Guess what ? It didn't stay 'popular' once the caskets began coming in by the hundreds .

Keeping this simple for all you John Wayne fans .

IF RUSSIA PLAYED THIS SAME GEOPOLITICAL GAME WITH MEXICO the response of the United States would be damn well similar .

We have been led by the nose by the Democratic party ...step by predictable step...into a possible nuclear war.



This is the real deal...no video game 'overs' .

---

Again, we literally had the same situation in Central America and didn't do what you're saying we would.

But I'm someone who's been close to the horrors of war, so you can back off the John Wayne and video game comment. The massacres of being out armed by ruthless enemies results in immense brutality. And Russia's got a serious track record of this. I don't want US boots on the ground, but I'm ok giving resources to help defend themselves.

---

This is nothing like Viet Nam. This is a sovereign nation asking for help from invasion. This is not stepping into a poliical civil war. Ukraine is a stable Govt, Viet Nam had 12 govts in 2 years. There is no Gulf of Tonkin incident. There is no draft. To say this is Viet Nam is ridiculous and showsa lack of understanding.

The US is providing assistance, there are no US service men fighting in Ukraine. Ukraine does not want someone else to fight for their Nation, they are doing that themselves.

A Soverign nation the west has courted from decades asks for help, you help.

---

Vietnam began as 'weapons support '….then 'advisors on the ground '….then finally 500,000 troops deployed .

We are STILL in South Korea 30,000 strong SEVENTY years after a truce was established.

Iraq is still a mess 5000 US dead later and Iran empowered .

After billions spent in Afghanistan and years of dead US servicemen the Biden Administration just abandoned 4-5 BILLION dollars worth of weaponry to the Taliban….an acknowledged terrorist organization.

When the **** are you going to figure it out ?

Being the worlds policeman is not a winning proposition and the US isn't any good at it to begin with ,

---

we're doing a pretty good job in Ukraine right now....

---

Thousands of Ukrainian civilians and solders dead .

Countryside burned , cities flattened , millions of refugees forced out of their homes into other countries .

Billions of US dollars spent while hundreds of thousands of our own mentally ill are living ( and dying ) on the streets .

But hey Ukraine officially applied for NATO membership !


All worth it .

US foreign policy continues to rock .

---

of course it's worth it. that's why Ukrainians are willing to die for it. Freedom does tend to inspire.

The "NATO started" it argument has some shocking faulty assumptions, chief among which is the notion that Ukrainians are stooge drones who are only fighting because Nato is making them do it.

---

US interference in Ukrainian political power struggles began in earnest during the Obama administration.

Putin objected considering it another blatant example of US regime change policy.

Under Ukraine's new president the chatter begins about joining NATO. Again Putin objects as such an alliance would in all likelihood bring NATO weaponry , aimed at Russia , on Ukrainian soil .

One can sing ' God Bless America ' at the top of your lungs but it doesn't change the reality of the situation or the United States ' s responsibility for the destruction .

We pushed and pushed . Never really believing Putin's threats .

Classic miscalculation.



Now we are STILL pushing ……( anyone who thinks the Russians blew up their own pipelines shouldn't own a driver's license ) and ignoring Putin's repeated threats to use nuclear weapons.




And all of this horror involving a country 90% of the American people couldn't have found on a world map 2 years ago .


Insanity

---

in bold contains a premise error.

We did not interfere in Ukrainian politics and turn a happy, stable, Russia-friendly regime which well-represented the sensibilities of its peoples into an avatar that your argument presumes: a regime bent on making Ukraine an EU clone against the will of its peoples.

Ukrainians revolted and for days faced small-arms fire from police and armed forces, almost unarmed.
US meddling did not create that outrage out of whole cloth. Did not direct it, either.

The Mearsheimer argument that Russia has legitimate concerns about Nato/EU expansion is valid, but not dispositive. Ukrainians do get a say in their future. And the nations to the west of Ukraine are not obligated, morally or legally, to stifle their sensibilities to give Russia a free hand to be Tsarist Russia.

Russia should pay a steep price for what it is doing in Ukraine.
Modernity has its flaws, but it is quite the improvement over the 18th century.

---

In the non-insanity world, according to this logic. Putin and Xi get to determine National policy for who they want.

Ukraine wants to align Wst and join NATO they can't because it upsets Putin. Finland and Sweden can't join either, Putin will get mad.

Taiwan sorry, you must follow Hong Kongs fate. Why? It does not matter what your population of millions or Government desire, because Xi says no.

That is not insanity????

---

Fly that rainbow flag proudly, to keep the pronoun police away!

---

I am supporting your position. Adding to your view.

Russia should pay. In past eras, his movements into Ukraine would have been enough to set off at least a regional war. Nukes being the only thing allowing this thug to do this to Ukraine.

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Promoting courses of action that probably will result in the death of others without stepping up to the plate is bull*****

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Here we are.

---

Vividly remember this same kind of naive group think as the Vietnam War rolled in.

Step by incredibly stupid step. First just weapons, then just 'advisors'...then 500,000 troops and almost 60,000 KIA.

As long as someone else was doing the fighting and getting shot up or killed ...the John Wayne mentally was immensely popular.

Guess what ? It didn't stay 'popular' once the caskets began coming in by the hundreds .

Keeping this simple for all you John Wayne fans .

IF RUSSIA PLAYED THIS SAME GEOPOLITICAL GAME WITH MEXICO the response of the United States would be damn well similar .

We have been led by the nose by the Democratic party ...step by predictable step...into a possible nuclear war.



This is the real deal...no video game 'overs' .

---

Again, we literally had the same situation in Central America and didn't do what you're saying we would.

But I'm someone who's been close to the horrors of war, so you can back off the John Wayne and video game comment. The massacres of being out armed by ruthless enemies results in immense brutality. And Russia's got a serious track record of this. I don't want US boots on the ground, but I'm ok giving resources to help defend themselves.

---

This is nothing like Viet Nam. This is a sovereign nation asking for help from invasion. This is not stepping into a poliical civil war. Ukraine is a stable Govt, Viet Nam had 12 govts in 2 years. There is no Gulf of Tonkin incident. There is no draft. To say this is Viet Nam is ridiculous and showsa lack of understanding.

The US is providing assistance, there are no US service men fighting in Ukraine. Ukraine does not want someone else to fight for their Nation, they are doing that themselves.

A Soverign nation the west has courted from decades asks for help, you help.

---

Vietnam began as 'weapons support '….then 'advisors on the ground '….then finally 500,000 troops deployed .

We are STILL in South Korea 30,000 strong SEVENTY years after a truce was established.

Iraq is still a mess 5000 US dead later and Iran empowered .

After billions spent in Afghanistan and years of dead US servicemen the Biden Administration just abandoned 4-5 BILLION dollars worth of weaponry to the Taliban….an acknowledged terrorist organization.

When the **** are you going to figure it out ?

Being the worlds policeman is not a winning proposition and the US isn't any good at it to begin with ,

---

we're doing a pretty good job in Ukraine right now....

---

Thousands of Ukrainian civilians and solders dead .

Countryside burned , cities flattened , millions of refugees forced out of their homes into other countries .

Billions of US dollars spent while hundreds of thousands of our own mentally ill are living ( and dying ) on the streets .

But hey Ukraine officially applied for NATO membership !


All worth it .

US foreign policy continues to rock .

---

of course it's worth it. that's why Ukrainians are willing to die for it. Freedom does tend to inspire.

The "NATO started" it argument has some shocking faulty assumptions, chief among which is the notion that Ukrainians are stooge drones who are only fighting because Nato is making them do it.

---

US interference in Ukrainian political power struggles began in earnest during the Obama administration.

Putin objected considering it another blatant example of US regime change policy.

Under Ukraine's new president the chatter begins about joining NATO. Again Putin objects as such an alliance would in all likelihood bring NATO weaponry , aimed at Russia , on Ukrainian soil .

One can sing ' God Bless America ' at the top of your lungs but it doesn't change the reality of the situation or the United States ' s responsibility for the destruction .

We pushed and pushed . Never really believing Putin's threats .

Classic miscalculation.



Now we are STILL pushing ……( anyone who thinks the Russians blew up their own pipelines shouldn't own a driver's license ) and ignoring Putin's repeated threats to use nuclear weapons.




And all of this horror involving a country 90% of the American people couldn't have found on a world map 2 years ago .


Insanity

---

in bold contains a premise error.

We did not interfere in Ukrainian politics and turn a happy, stable, Russia-friendly regime which well-represented the sensibilities of its peoples into an avatar that your argument presumes: a regime bent on making Ukraine an EU clone against the will of its peoples.

Ukrainians revolted and for days faced small-arms fire from police and armed forces, almost unarmed.
US meddling did not create that outrage out of whole cloth. Did not direct it, either.

The Mearsheimer argument that Russia has legitimate concerns about Nato/EU expansion is valid, but not dispositive. Ukrainians do get a say in their future. And the nations to the west of Ukraine are not obligated, morally or legally, to stifle their sensibilities to give Russia a free hand to be Tsarist Russia.

Russia should pay a steep price for what it is doing in Ukraine.
Modernity has its flaws, but it is quite the improvement over the 18th century.

---

In the non-insanity world, according to this logic. Putin and Xi get to determine National policy for who they want.

Ukraine wants to align Wst and join NATO they can't because it upsets Putin. Finland and Sweden can't join either, Putin will get mad.

Taiwan sorry, you must follow Hong Kongs fate. Why? It does not matter what your population of millions or Government desire, because Xi says no.

That is not insanity????

---

Fly that rainbow flag proudly, to keep the pronoun police away!

---

I am supporting your position. Adding to your view.

Russia should pay. In past eras, his movements into Ukraine would have been enough to set off at least a regional war. Nukes being the only thing allowing this thug to do this to Ukraine.

---

.
I knew that. My effort at sarcasm was apparently too dry.

Somehow I doubt Canada, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina , Chile, India , Laos, Cambodia , Costa Rica, Japan, Columbia , Jordan, Saudi Arabia , New Zealand , and host of other countries throughout the world are all in a self righteous tizzy to risk thermal nuclear war in order to 'make Russia pay'.

Some of you internet Rambo's need to access You Tube and pull up the old films of above ground hydrogen bomb tests last conducted decades ago.

As its clear you don't have anything approaching a clear understanding of what's at risk .

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

I remember when the Russians just tried to poison their way to power in Ukraine. That used to be considered a bad thing until this new strain of "Russia free to bully because America is bad" line of thinking emerged.

---

The line of thinking is "Let's get a peace deal together asap since our current President just acknowledged that the world is teetering on the brink of nuclear armageddon".

This is all worth mushroom clouds?

Zelensky this week: " "We need pre-emptive strikes, so that they'll know what will happen to them if they use nukes, and not the other way around. Don't wait for Russia's nuclear strikes, and then say, oh, since you did this, take that from us!"

So are these radical fears or are the very guys in charge lying?

---

You seem to question everything until you choose not to question anything.

---

You guys are so certain what we're doing is right.

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Promoting courses of action that probably will result in the death of others without stepping up to the plate is bull*****

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Here we are.

---

Vividly remember this same kind of naive group think as the Vietnam War rolled in.

Step by incredibly stupid step. First just weapons, then just 'advisors'...then 500,000 troops and almost 60,000 KIA.

As long as someone else was doing the fighting and getting shot up or killed ...the John Wayne mentally was immensely popular.

Guess what ? It didn't stay 'popular' once the caskets began coming in by the hundreds .

Keeping this simple for all you John Wayne fans .

IF RUSSIA PLAYED THIS SAME GEOPOLITICAL GAME WITH MEXICO the response of the United States would be damn well similar .

We have been led by the nose by the Democratic party ...step by predictable step...into a possible nuclear war.



This is the real deal...no video game 'overs' .

---

Again, we literally had the same situation in Central America and didn't do what you're saying we would.

But I'm someone who's been close to the horrors of war, so you can back off the John Wayne and video game comment. The massacres of being out armed by ruthless enemies results in immense brutality. And Russia's got a serious track record of this. I don't want US boots on the ground, but I'm ok giving resources to help defend themselves.

---

This is nothing like Viet Nam. This is a sovereign nation asking for help from invasion. This is not stepping into a poliical civil war. Ukraine is a stable Govt, Viet Nam had 12 govts in 2 years. There is no Gulf of Tonkin incident. There is no draft. To say this is Viet Nam is ridiculous and showsa lack of understanding.

The US is providing assistance, there are no US service men fighting in Ukraine. Ukraine does not want someone else to fight for their Nation, they are doing that themselves.

A Soverign nation the west has courted from decades asks for help, you help.

---

Vietnam began as 'weapons support '….then 'advisors on the ground '….then finally 500,000 troops deployed .

We are STILL in South Korea 30,000 strong SEVENTY years after a truce was established.

Iraq is still a mess 5000 US dead later and Iran empowered .

After billions spent in Afghanistan and years of dead US servicemen the Biden Administration just abandoned 4-5 BILLION dollars worth of weaponry to the Taliban….an acknowledged terrorist organization.

When the **** are you going to figure it out ?

Being the worlds policeman is not a winning proposition and the US isn't any good at it to begin with ,

---

we're doing a pretty good job in Ukraine right now....

---

Thousands of Ukrainian civilians and solders dead .

Countryside burned , cities flattened , millions of refugees forced out of their homes into other countries .

Billions of US dollars spent while hundreds of thousands of our own mentally ill are living ( and dying ) on the streets .

But hey Ukraine officially applied for NATO membership !


All worth it .

US foreign policy continues to rock .

---

of course it's worth it. that's why Ukrainians are willing to die for it. Freedom does tend to inspire.

The "NATO started" it argument has some shocking faulty assumptions, chief among which is the notion that Ukrainians are stooge drones who are only fighting because Nato is making them do it.

---

US interference in Ukrainian political power struggles began in earnest during the Obama administration.

Putin objected considering it another blatant example of US regime change policy.

Under Ukraine's new president the chatter begins about joining NATO. Again Putin objects as such an alliance would in all likelihood bring NATO weaponry , aimed at Russia , on Ukrainian soil .

One can sing ' God Bless America ' at the top of your lungs but it doesn't change the reality of the situation or the United States ' s responsibility for the destruction .

We pushed and pushed . Never really believing Putin's threats .

Classic miscalculation.



Now we are STILL pushing ……( anyone who thinks the Russians blew up their own pipelines shouldn't own a driver's license ) and ignoring Putin's repeated threats to use nuclear weapons.




And all of this horror involving a country 90% of the American people couldn't have found on a world map 2 years ago .


Insanity

---

in bold contains a premise error.

We did not interfere in Ukrainian politics and turn a happy, stable, Russia-friendly regime which well-represented the sensibilities of its peoples into an avatar that your argument presumes: a regime bent on making Ukraine an EU clone against the will of its peoples.

Ukrainians revolted and for days faced small-arms fire from police and armed forces, almost unarmed.
US meddling did not create that outrage out of whole cloth. Did not direct it, either.

The Mearsheimer argument that Russia has legitimate concerns about Nato/EU expansion is valid, but not dispositive. Ukrainians do get a say in their future. And the nations to the west of Ukraine are not obligated, morally or legally, to stifle their sensibilities to give Russia a free hand to be Tsarist Russia.

Russia should pay a steep price for what it is doing in Ukraine.
Modernity has its flaws, but it is quite the improvement over the 18th century.

---

In the non-insanity world, according to this logic. Putin and Xi get to determine National policy for who they want.

Ukraine wants to align Wst and join NATO they can't because it upsets Putin. Finland and Sweden can't join either, Putin will get mad.

Taiwan sorry, you must follow Hong Kongs fate. Why? It does not matter what your population of millions or Government desire, because Xi says no.

That is not insanity????

---

Fly that rainbow flag proudly, to keep the pronoun police away!

---

I am supporting your position. Adding to your view.

Russia should pay. In past eras, his movements into Ukraine would have been enough to set off at least a regional war. Nukes being the only thing allowing this thug to do this to Ukraine.

---

.
I knew that. My effort at sarcasm was apparently too dry.

---

Nah, just too early...

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

I remember when the Russians just tried to poison their way to power in Ukraine. That used to be considered a bad thing until this new strain of "Russia free to bully because America is bad" line of thinking emerged.

---

The line of thinking is "Let's get a peace deal together asap since our current President just acknowledged that the world is teetering on the brink of nuclear armageddon".

This is all worth mushroom clouds?

Zelensky this week: " "We need pre-emptive strikes, so that they'll know what will happen to them if they use nukes, and not the other way around. Don't wait for Russia's nuclear strikes, and then say, oh, since you did this, take that from us!"

So are these radical fears or are the very guys in charge lying?

---

You seem to question everything until you choose not to question anything.

---

You guys are so certain what we're doing is right.

---

I'm certain Russia invading Ukraine was wrong. For Ukraine and the world for that matter.

---

It's not worth escalating to nuclear. If this war goes nuclear, it will be because nobody made an effort to settle and make a deal. Sometimes you have to cut your losses to save lives.

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

I remember when the Russians just tried to poison their way to power in Ukraine. That used to be considered a bad thing until this new strain of "Russia free to bully because America is bad" line of thinking emerged.

---

The line of thinking is "Let's get a peace deal together asap since our current President just acknowledged that the world is teetering on the brink of nuclear armageddon".

This is all worth mushroom clouds?

Zelensky this week: " "We need pre-emptive strikes, so that they'll know what will happen to them if they use nukes, and not the other way around. Don't wait for Russia's nuclear strikes, and then say, oh, since you did this, take that from us!"

So are these radical fears or are the very guys in charge lying?

---

You seem to question everything until you choose not to question anything.

---

You guys are so certain what we're doing is right.

---

Doc,

Russia rolled tanks into Ukraine. They took Crimea in 2014.

Please describe to me how this is OK and how we should react when a Nation asks for help? What is the appropriate response.

We know Canada would tell them the 90's agreement is non-binding, good luck not our problem. Probably give Putin Finland to make up for the trouble we caused him. Curious what your correct response is?

DioNoZeus said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Somehow I doubt Canada, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina , Chile, India , Laos, Cambodia , Costa Rica, Japan, Columbia , Jordan, Saudi Arabia , New Zealand , and host of other countries throughout the world are all in a self righteous tizzy to risk thermal nuclear war in order to 'make Russia pay'.

Some of you internet Rambo's need to access You Tube and pull up the old films of above ground hydrogen bomb tests last conducted decades ago.

As its clear you don't have anything approaching a clear understanding of what's at risk .

---

Like I said earlier, hyperbolic Eeyore

---

Old man Biden has recently stated that the current threat of nuclear war is the highest since the Cuban Missile Crises of 1962.

Is he now 'eeyore' as well ?

Get a semblance of a clue.

RMF5630: "Taiwan sorry, you must follow Hong Kongs fate."

My wife is from Hong Kong. You might be surprised to know what kind of things Hong Kong has done to assert an independent identity since 1997.

Canada2017 said:

---

DioNoZeus said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Somehow I doubt Canada, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina , Chile, India , Laos, Cambodia , Costa Rica, Japan, Columbia , Jordan, Saudi Arabia , New Zealand , and host of other countries throughout the world are all in a self righteous tizzy to risk thermal nuclear war in order to 'make Russia pay'.

Some of you internet Rambo's need to access You Tube and pull up the old films of above ground hydrogen bomb tests last conducted decades ago.

As its clear you don't have anything approaching a clear understanding of what's at risk .

---

Like I said earlier, hyperbolic Eeyore

---

Old man Biden has recently stated that the current threat of nuclear war is the highest since the Cuban Missile Crises of 1962.

Is he now 'eeyore' as well ?

Get a semblance of a clue.

---

"Old man Biden is an untrustworthy, senile fool except when he's discussing the threat of nuclear war in front of his base."

Baby Please….

Oldbear83 said:

---

RMF5630: "Taiwan sorry, you must follow Hong Kongs fate."

My wife is from Hong Kong. You might be surprised to know what kind of things Hong Kong has done to assert an independent identity since 1997.

---

I would love to hear about it. I have friends from Taiwan, talking to them is eye opening. I love the Taiwanese people, they are some of our best allies.

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

I remember when the Russians just tried to poison their way to power in Ukraine. That used to be considered a bad thing until this new strain of "Russia free to bully because America is bad" line of thinking emerged.

---

The line of thinking is "Let's get a peace deal together asap since our current President just acknowledged that the world is teetering on the brink of nuclear armageddon".

This is all worth mushroom clouds?

Zelensky this week: " "We need pre-emptive strikes, so that they'll know what will happen to them if they use nukes, and not the other way around. Don't wait for Russia's nuclear strikes, and then say, oh, since you did this, take that from us!"

So are these radical fears or are the very guys in charge lying?

---

You seem to question everything until you choose not to question anything.

---

You guys are so certain what we're doing is right.

---

Doc,

Russia rolled tanks into Ukraine. They took Crimea in 2014.

Please describe to me how this is OK and how we should react when a Nation asks for help? What is the appropriate response.

We know Canada would tell them the 90's agreement is non-binding, good luck not our problem. Probably give Putin Finland to make up for the trouble we caused him. Curious what your correct response is?

---

The appropriate response to broker a peace deal and deescalate war. Russia and Ukraine both lose territory they believe is theirs. This completely avoids nuclear conflict, which I'm told is a legit possibility.

Describe to me how you see this going, maybe I just don't understand your goal. Are we supporting Ukraine until Russia backs down, if so, how does that work without nuclear weapons going off?

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

I remember when the Russians just tried to poison their way to power in Ukraine. That used to be considered a bad thing until this new strain of "Russia free to bully because America is bad" line of thinking emerged.

---

The line of thinking is "Let's get a peace deal together asap since our current President just acknowledged that the world is teetering on the brink of nuclear armageddon".

This is all worth mushroom clouds?

Zelensky this week: " "We need pre-emptive strikes, so that they'll know what will happen to them if they use nukes, and not the other way around. Don't wait for Russia's nuclear strikes, and then say, oh, since you did this, take that from us!"

So are these radical fears or are the very guys in charge lying?

---

You seem to question everything until you choose not to question anything.

---

You guys are so certain what we're doing is right.

---

I'm certain Russia invading Ukraine was wrong. For Ukraine and the world for that matter.

---

It's not worth escalating to nuclear. If this war goes nuclear, it will be because nobody made an effort to settle and make a deal. Sometimes you have to cut your losses to save lives.

---

This is where I start wondering if people watched too many movies like "Threads", "The Day After", and other such dark fantasies.

Despite appearances, Humans have learned from some of their wars. We don't use chemical gas in wars, for example, the way we did in WW1. And despite ample opportunity to off the planet, we consistently avert actual exchanges of nuclear weapons.

The good news is that I am certain neither the Russians nor the Americans will use a nuke in this crisis. There are too many places where that bad idea can and will be stopped short of actual action.

The bad news, is that with so much attention on nuclear weapons it would not surprise me if there were several other events with mass casualties.

Doc Holliday said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

I remember when the Russians just tried to poison their way to power in Ukraine. That used to be considered a bad thing until this new strain of "Russia free to bully because America is bad" line of thinking emerged.

---

The line of thinking is "Let's get a peace deal together asap since our current President just acknowledged that the world is teetering on the brink of nuclear armageddon".

This is all worth mushroom clouds?

Zelensky this week: " "We need pre-emptive strikes, so that they'll know what will happen to them if they use nukes, and not the other way around. Don't wait for Russia's nuclear strikes, and then say, oh, since you did this, take that from us!"

So are these radical fears or are the very guys in charge lying?

---

You seem to question everything until you choose not to question anything.

---

You guys are so certain what we're doing is right.

---

Doc,

Russia rolled tanks into Ukraine. They took Crimea in 2014.

Please describe to me how this is OK and how we should react when a Nation asks for help? What is the appropriate response.

We know Canada would tell them the 90's agreement is non-binding, good luck not our problem. Probably give Putin Finland to make up for the trouble we caused him. Curious what your correct response is?

---

The appropriate response to broker a peace deal and deescalate war. Russia and Ukraine both lose territory they believe is theirs. This completely avoids nuclear conflict, which I'm told is a legit possibility.

Describe to me how you see this going, maybe I just don't understand your goal. Are we supporting Ukraine until Russia backs down, if so, how does that work without nuclear weapons going off?

---

You are so naive. Do you really expect Putin to be willing to give up territory? He just "annexed" territory his troops are actively losing.

DioNoZeus said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

DioNoZeus said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Somehow I doubt Canada, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina , Chile, India , Laos, Cambodia , Costa Rica, Japan, Columbia , Jordan, Saudi Arabia , New Zealand , and host of other countries throughout the world are all in a self righteous tizzy to risk thermal nuclear war in order to 'make Russia pay'.

Some of you internet Rambo's need to access You Tube and pull up the old films of above ground hydrogen bomb tests last conducted decades ago.

As its clear you don't have anything approaching a clear understanding of what's at risk .

---

Like I said earlier, hyperbolic Eeyore

---

Old man Biden has recently stated that the current threat of nuclear war is the highest since the Cuban Missile Crises of 1962.

Is he now 'eeyore' as well ?

Get a semblance of a clue.

---

"Old man Biden is an untrustworthy, senile fool except when he's discussing the threat of nuclear war in front of his base."

Please….

---

Silly deflection .


200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border and Harris goes out there and resumes calls for Ukrainian membership into NATO.

US decides Putin is bluffing......whoops ...no bluff......invasion begins in earnest.....thousands dead, MILLIONS become refugees .

Now Putin's stooges are calling for the use of 'tactical' nuclear weapons.

US ignores this threat as well ....continues pumping BILLIONS of dollars worth of weapons into the war zone. Weapons that are killing Putin's solders.

But Putin is bluffing THIS time right ?

And even if he throws a few mushroom clouds over the war zone....no biggie.

You can just say 'whoops' from the safety of your keyboard.

Perfect.

Canada2017 said:

---

DioNoZeus said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

DioNoZeus said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Somehow I doubt Canada, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina , Chile, India , Laos, Cambodia , Costa Rica, Japan, Columbia , Jordan, Saudi Arabia , New Zealand , and host of other countries throughout the world are all in a self righteous tizzy to risk thermal nuclear war in order to 'make Russia pay'.

Some of you internet Rambo's need to access You Tube and pull up the old films of above ground hydrogen bomb tests last conducted decades ago.

As its clear you don't have anything approaching a clear understanding of what's at risk .

---

Like I said earlier, hyperbolic Eeyore

---

Old man Biden has recently stated that the current threat of nuclear war is the highest since the Cuban Missile Crises of 1962.

Is he now 'eeyore' as well ?

Get a semblance of a clue.

---

"Old man Biden is an untrustworthy, senile fool except when he's discussing the threat of nuclear war in front of his base."

Please….

---

Silly deflection .


200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border and Harris goes out there and resumes calls for Ukrainian membership into NATO.

US decides Putin is bluffing......whoops ...no bluff......invasion begins in earnest.....thousands dead, MILLIONS become refugees .

Now Putin's stooges are calling for the use of 'tactical' nuclear weapons.

US ignores this threat as well ....continues pumping BILLIONS of dollars worth of weapons into the war zone. Weapons that are killing Putin's solders.

But Putin is bluffing THIS time right ?

And even if he throws a few mushroom clouds over the war zone....no biggie.

You can just say 'whoops' from the safety of your keyboard.

Perfect.

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Looks like it's time for you to start building your bunker. I'm sure Florduh has some plans you can borrow.

DioNoZeus said:

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Canada2017 said:

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DioNoZeus said:

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Canada2017 said:

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DioNoZeus said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Somehow I doubt Canada, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina , Chile, India , Laos, Cambodia , Costa Rica, Japan, Columbia , Jordan, Saudi Arabia , New Zealand , and host of other countries throughout the world are all in a self righteous tizzy to risk thermal nuclear war in order to 'make Russia pay'.

Some of you internet Rambo's need to access You Tube and pull up the old films of above ground hydrogen bomb tests last conducted decades ago.

As its clear you don't have anything approaching a clear understanding of what's at risk .

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Like I said earlier, hyperbolic Eeyore

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Old man Biden has recently stated that the current threat of nuclear war is the highest since the Cuban Missile Crises of 1962.

Is he now 'eeyore' as well ?

Get a semblance of a clue.

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"Old man Biden is an untrustworthy, senile fool except when he's discussing the threat of nuclear war in front of his base."

Please….

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Silly deflection .


200,000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border and Harris goes out there and resumes calls for Ukrainian membership into NATO.

US decides Putin is bluffing......whoops ...no bluff......invasion begins in earnest.....thousands dead, MILLIONS become refugees .

Now Putin's stooges are calling for the use of 'tactical' nuclear weapons.

US ignores this threat as well ....continues pumping BILLIONS of dollars worth of weapons into the war zone. Weapons that are killing Putin's solders.

But Putin is bluffing THIS time right ?

And even if he throws a few mushroom clouds over the war zone....no biggie.

You can just say 'whoops' from the safety of your keyboard.

Perfect.

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Looks like it's time for you to start building your bunker. I'm sure Florduh has some plans you can borrow.

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Another childish deflection .

Because that's all you've got.

The facts are unpleasant so you merely respond with garbage .

Oldbear83 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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ATL Bear said:

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I remember when the Russians just tried to poison their way to power in Ukraine. That used to be considered a bad thing until this new strain of "Russia free to bully because America is bad" line of thinking emerged.

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The line of thinking is "Let's get a peace deal together asap since our current President just acknowledged that the world is teetering on the brink of nuclear armageddon".

This is all worth mushroom clouds?

Zelensky this week: " "We need pre-emptive strikes, so that they'll know what will happen to them if they use nukes, and not the other way around. Don't wait for Russia's nuclear strikes, and then say, oh, since you did this, take that from us!"

So are these radical fears or are the very guys in charge lying?

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You seem to question everything until you choose not to question anything.

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You guys are so certain what we're doing is right.

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I'm certain Russia invading Ukraine was wrong. For Ukraine and the world for that matter.

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It's not worth escalating to nuclear. If this war goes nuclear, it will be because nobody made an effort to settle and make a deal. Sometimes you have to cut your losses to save lives.

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This is where I start wondering if people watched too many movies like "Threads", "The Day After", and other such dark fantasies.

Despite appearances, Humans have learned from some of their wars. We don't use chemical gas in wars, for example, the way we did in WW1. And despite ample opportunity to off the planet, we consistently avert actual exchanges of nuclear weapons.

The good news is that I am certain neither the Russians nor the Americans will use a nuke in this crisis. There are too many places where that bad idea can and will be stopped short of actual action.

The bad news, is that with so much attention on nuclear weapons it would not surprise me if there were several other events with mass casualties.

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Its not a good sign when our own president says we're on brink of nuclear Armageddon and the President of Ukraine echoes the same thing.,