Harrison Bergeron said:
Another mess created by Putin-puppets in the Obiden Administration.
It is possible both to feel for the civilians facing this tragedy but not really want to start a global meltdown over a place 99% of the virtue signalers could not identify on a map.
RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
many of them flew to the US, UK, Germany, and Poland and spent weeks learning how to use the weapons.Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
Really think there aren't US 'advisors' or civilian contractors quietly involved in Ukraine with all of the various new weapon systems we have provided ?
Or the Ukrainians simply looked it all up on various You Tube instruction videos and were good to go .
Ok, we are now going black ops?Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
Really think there aren't US 'advisors' or civilian contractors quietly involved in Ukraine with all of the various new weapon systems we have provided ?
Or the Ukrainians simply looked it all up on various You Tube instruction videos and were good to go .
Their are factions in the United States political establishment & Media apparatus demanding just that...and internet keyboard warriors backing up those calls for war on the other side of the globe.RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/27/there-are-already-small-number-us-troops-ukraine-they-florida-national-guard/Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
Really think there aren't US 'advisors' or civilian contractors quietly involved in Ukraine with all of the various new weapon systems we have provided ?
Or the Ukrainians simply looked it all up on various You Tube instruction videos and were good to go .
Amazing how the Russia Hoax has made the TDSers want to start World War III to protect one of the world's most corrupt regimes against the predations of another of the world's most corrupt regimens.Redbrickbear said:Their are factions in the United States political establishment & Media apparatus demanding just that...and internet keyboard warriors backing up those calls for war on the other side of the globe.RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
And we are mocking them for that.
You are right that it has not happened yet...and with God's help it will never take place.
I don't see US troops going into Ukraine. Only way would be as part of either a response by NATO or a UN Peacekeeping. Unilaterally, no way.Redbrickbear said:Their are factions in the United States political establishment & Media apparatus demanding just that...and internet keyboard warriors backing up those calls for war on the other side of the globe.RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
And we are mocking them for that.
You are right that it has not happened yet...and with God's help it will never take place.
While many would agree with you that we have our own issues here we need to fix one has to accept that the world is different than when the founding fathers lived and much more interconnected through trade now.Canada2017 said:
Works for me .
We need to protect US border integrity, provide aid for our own poor, focus on rebuilding our own infrastructure.
Wars in Europe have been a regular occurrence for hundreds of years .
The Founding Fathers wanted nothing to do with them .
Civilian contractors would be a private company issue... so now you want the government to tell companies what to do or not do?Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
Really think there aren't US 'advisors' or civilian contractors quietly involved in Ukraine with all of the various new weapon systems we have provided ?
Or the Ukrainians simply looked it all up on various You Tube instruction videos and were good to go .
Russia's "irrecoverable losses" in the war with Ukraine have just become known: according to an FSB source, that figure is 90K. This includes troops who were killed, went missing, died from wounds, or were disabled and cannot return to military service.https://t.co/paAUqNL5u8
— Meduza in English (@meduza_en) October 12, 2022
JUST IN - Ukraine needs $57 billion to cover the budget deficit next year, and to rebuild critical and power infrastructure.
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) October 12, 2022
In addition, no less than $5 billion in credit limits to purchase gas and coal, Zelenskyy says at IMF-World Bank.
And the scam continues.Doc Holliday said:JUST IN - Ukraine needs $57 billion to cover the budget deficit next year, and to rebuild critical and power infrastructure.
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) October 12, 2022
In addition, no less than $5 billion in credit limits to purchase gas and coal, Zelenskyy says at IMF-World Bank.
We've been training Ukrainians since 2014 but, it is done outside of their borders.Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
Really think there aren't US 'advisors' or civilian contractors quietly involved in Ukraine with all of the various new weapon systems we have provided ?
Or the Ukrainians simply looked it all up on various You Tube instruction videos and were good to go .
If there are any black ops going on that we see the results of, it will be in a military-industrial accident in Iran or NK, maybe some major software issues that shut things down.RMF5630 said:Ok, we are now going black ops?Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
Really think there aren't US 'advisors' or civilian contractors quietly involved in Ukraine with all of the various new weapon systems we have provided ?
Or the Ukrainians simply looked it all up on various You Tube instruction videos and were good to go .
There is no answer that can differ from your view, right?
You are bouncing from Viet Nam involvement to under the table Black Ops that will be disavowed...
I am sure we have satellites over the air space too...
Can we agree to stick to the official position of the US? Once we beat that to death, we can delve into the CIA and other covert operations. One at a time.
The enemy of my enemy yada yada…Harrison Bergeron said:Amazing how the Russia Hoax has made the TDSers want to start World War III to protect one of the world's most corrupt regimes against the predations of another of the world's most corrupt regimens.Redbrickbear said:Their are factions in the United States political establishment & Media apparatus demanding just that...and internet keyboard warriors backing up those calls for war on the other side of the globe.RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
And we are mocking them for that.
You are right that it has not happened yet...and with God's help it will never take place.
Redbrickbear said:Apart from nukes, one other major difference between now and 1914 is that no one is enlisting: Russians are fleeing Putin's conscription in droves, while the US army is 25% short of its recruitment target - the result of a world in which politics was deliberately de-massified. pic.twitter.com/jmwySolHI1
— Philip Cunliffe (@thephilippics) October 11, 2022
Black ops will always be done and always be disavowed.LIB,MR BEARS said:If there are any black ops going on that we see the results of, it will be in a military-industrial accident in Iran or NK, maybe some major software issues that shut things down.RMF5630 said:Ok, we are now going black ops?Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
Really think there aren't US 'advisors' or civilian contractors quietly involved in Ukraine with all of the various new weapon systems we have provided ?
Or the Ukrainians simply looked it all up on various You Tube instruction videos and were good to go .
There is no answer that can differ from your view, right?
You are bouncing from Viet Nam involvement to under the table Black Ops that will be disavowed...
I am sure we have satellites over the air space too...
Can we agree to stick to the official position of the US? Once we beat that to death, we can delve into the CIA and other covert operations. One at a time.
whiterock said:Black ops will always be done and always be disavowed.LIB,MR BEARS said:If there are any black ops going on that we see the results of, it will be in a military-industrial accident in Iran or NK, maybe some major software issues that shut things down.RMF5630 said:Ok, we are now going black ops?Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
Really think there aren't US 'advisors' or civilian contractors quietly involved in Ukraine with all of the various new weapon systems we have provided ?
Or the Ukrainians simply looked it all up on various You Tube instruction videos and were good to go .
There is no answer that can differ from your view, right?
You are bouncing from Viet Nam involvement to under the table Black Ops that will be disavowed...
I am sure we have satellites over the air space too...
Can we agree to stick to the official position of the US? Once we beat that to death, we can delve into the CIA and other covert operations. One at a time.
Bombing of Kerch Bridge was clearly a black op, by Ukr intel or s/f.
We are most definitely doing some training/advising inside Ukr. Inconceivable that we would not have intel, contractors, SOCOM efforts underway since long before the war started.
It's no secret that the US has special ops in Ukraine. We pulled most of them out in February when it looked like the war would be over quickly, but we sent them back in even greater numbers as soon as we saw the chance to prolong it.RMF5630 said:whiterock said:Black ops will always be done and always be disavowed.LIB,MR BEARS said:If there are any black ops going on that we see the results of, it will be in a military-industrial accident in Iran or NK, maybe some major software issues that shut things down.RMF5630 said:Ok, we are now going black ops?Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
Really think there aren't US 'advisors' or civilian contractors quietly involved in Ukraine with all of the various new weapon systems we have provided ?
Or the Ukrainians simply looked it all up on various You Tube instruction videos and were good to go .
There is no answer that can differ from your view, right?
You are bouncing from Viet Nam involvement to under the table Black Ops that will be disavowed...
I am sure we have satellites over the air space too...
Can we agree to stick to the official position of the US? Once we beat that to death, we can delve into the CIA and other covert operations. One at a time.
Bombing of Kerch Bridge was clearly a black op, by Ukr intel or s/f.
We are most definitely doing some training/advising inside Ukr. Inconceivable that we would not have intel, contractors, SOCOM efforts underway since long before the war started.
My point is the conversation to this point has been conventional, military and political. That adds a whole other dynamic that is beyond policy.
Are we doing covert? I would not be surprised, but who knows. That is the point of covert.
For this conversation, I was talking conventional and political.
I have no idea if SF is in Ukraine now that an active war is underway. This conversation has been about the policy of the US, in other words a much larger scale. I am sure we have a presence in most parts of the world.Sam Lowry said:It's no secret that the US has special ops in Ukraine. We pulled most of them out in February when it looked like the war would be over quickly, but we sent them back in even greater numbers as soon as we saw the chance to prolong it.RMF5630 said:whiterock said:Black ops will always be done and always be disavowed.LIB,MR BEARS said:If there are any black ops going on that we see the results of, it will be in a military-industrial accident in Iran or NK, maybe some major software issues that shut things down.RMF5630 said:Ok, we are now going black ops?Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
Really think there aren't US 'advisors' or civilian contractors quietly involved in Ukraine with all of the various new weapon systems we have provided ?
Or the Ukrainians simply looked it all up on various You Tube instruction videos and were good to go .
There is no answer that can differ from your view, right?
You are bouncing from Viet Nam involvement to under the table Black Ops that will be disavowed...
I am sure we have satellites over the air space too...
Can we agree to stick to the official position of the US? Once we beat that to death, we can delve into the CIA and other covert operations. One at a time.
Bombing of Kerch Bridge was clearly a black op, by Ukr intel or s/f.
We are most definitely doing some training/advising inside Ukr. Inconceivable that we would not have intel, contractors, SOCOM efforts underway since long before the war started.
My point is the conversation to this point has been conventional, military and political. That adds a whole other dynamic that is beyond policy.
Are we doing covert? I would not be surprised, but who knows. That is the point of covert.
For this conversation, I was talking conventional and political.
We're involved as actively as we can be while maintaining the pretense of non-involvement. Not just training, but providing real-time intelligence on the battlefield (technically for Ukrainian forces to defend themselves, but often used to target Russian forces) and helping to plan Ukrainian advances.RMF5630 said:I have no idea if SF is in Ukraine now that an active war is underway. This conversation has been about the policy of the US, in other words a much larger scale. I am sure we have a presence in most parts of the world.Sam Lowry said:It's no secret that the US has special ops in Ukraine. We pulled most of them out in February when it looked like the war would be over quickly, but we sent them back in even greater numbers as soon as we saw the chance to prolong it.RMF5630 said:whiterock said:Black ops will always be done and always be disavowed.LIB,MR BEARS said:If there are any black ops going on that we see the results of, it will be in a military-industrial accident in Iran or NK, maybe some major software issues that shut things down.RMF5630 said:Ok, we are now going black ops?Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
Really think there aren't US 'advisors' or civilian contractors quietly involved in Ukraine with all of the various new weapon systems we have provided ?
Or the Ukrainians simply looked it all up on various You Tube instruction videos and were good to go .
There is no answer that can differ from your view, right?
You are bouncing from Viet Nam involvement to under the table Black Ops that will be disavowed...
I am sure we have satellites over the air space too...
Can we agree to stick to the official position of the US? Once we beat that to death, we can delve into the CIA and other covert operations. One at a time.
Bombing of Kerch Bridge was clearly a black op, by Ukr intel or s/f.
We are most definitely doing some training/advising inside Ukr. Inconceivable that we would not have intel, contractors, SOCOM efforts underway since long before the war started.
My point is the conversation to this point has been conventional, military and political. That adds a whole other dynamic that is beyond policy.
Are we doing covert? I would not be surprised, but who knows. That is the point of covert.
For this conversation, I was talking conventional and political.
not to mention they can't even get a lot of the parts to produce at any higher capacity right now due to sanctions.Redbrickbear said:
[To be successful Russia needed more manpower from the start, but arguably moving to a true war economy is far more important for them than "mobilization" (however defined) as stockpiles aren't unlimited while Ukrainians are getting an endless inflow of Western hardware and munitions.
Russia reportedly produces only 12 Kalibrs / day, which might sound impressive, but consider that Germany ages ago was able to produce 3,300 V2 rockets between Sept 44-Feb 45, that's 22 / day while under massive strategic bombing. They need to open new production lines, not just increase shifts at existing ones]
Yes, I know. I have no problem with the level of involvement we are seeing. I also have no problem with Ukraine joining NATO.Sam Lowry said:We're involved as actively as we can be while maintaining the pretense of non-involvement. Not just training, but providing real-time intelligence on the battlefield (technically for Ukrainian forces to defend themselves, but often used to target Russian forces) and helping to plan Ukrainian advances.RMF5630 said:I have no idea if SF is in Ukraine now that an active war is underway. This conversation has been about the policy of the US, in other words a much larger scale. I am sure we have a presence in most parts of the world.Sam Lowry said:It's no secret that the US has special ops in Ukraine. We pulled most of them out in February when it looked like the war would be over quickly, but we sent them back in even greater numbers as soon as we saw the chance to prolong it.RMF5630 said:whiterock said:Black ops will always be done and always be disavowed.LIB,MR BEARS said:If there are any black ops going on that we see the results of, it will be in a military-industrial accident in Iran or NK, maybe some major software issues that shut things down.RMF5630 said:Ok, we are now going black ops?Canada2017 said:RMF5630 said:
Did I miss something? Are we or NATO sending troops to Ukriane? I thought we were supplying weapons because they asked and we're staying out of Ukraine? Based on the responses here, we must have deployed troops last night.
Really think there aren't US 'advisors' or civilian contractors quietly involved in Ukraine with all of the various new weapon systems we have provided ?
Or the Ukrainians simply looked it all up on various You Tube instruction videos and were good to go .
There is no answer that can differ from your view, right?
You are bouncing from Viet Nam involvement to under the table Black Ops that will be disavowed...
I am sure we have satellites over the air space too...
Can we agree to stick to the official position of the US? Once we beat that to death, we can delve into the CIA and other covert operations. One at a time.
Bombing of Kerch Bridge was clearly a black op, by Ukr intel or s/f.
We are most definitely doing some training/advising inside Ukr. Inconceivable that we would not have intel, contractors, SOCOM efforts underway since long before the war started.
My point is the conversation to this point has been conventional, military and political. That adds a whole other dynamic that is beyond policy.
Are we doing covert? I would not be surprised, but who knows. That is the point of covert.
For this conversation, I was talking conventional and political.
"You know there's a ten year delay in the Soviet Union of the delivery of an automobile, and only one out of seven families in the Soviet Union own automobiles. There's a ten year wait. And you go through quite a process when you're ready to buy, and then you put up the money in advance. And this happened to a fella, and this is their story, that they tell, this joke, that this man, he laid down his money, and then the fella that was in charge, said, 'Okay, come back in ten years to get your car.' And he said, 'Morning or afternoon?' and the fella behind the counter said, 'Ten years from now, what difference does it make?' and he said, 'Well, the plumber's coming in the morning.'"trey3216 said:not to mention they can't even get a lot of the parts to produce at any higher capacity right now due to sanctions.Redbrickbear said:
[To be successful Russia needed more manpower from the start, but arguably moving to a true war economy is far more important for them than "mobilization" (however defined) as stockpiles aren't unlimited while Ukrainians are getting an endless inflow of Western hardware and munitions.
Russia reportedly produces only 12 Kalibrs / day, which might sound impressive, but consider that Germany ages ago was able to produce 3,300 V2 rockets between Sept 44-Feb 45, that's 22 / day while under massive strategic bombing. They need to open new production lines, not just increase shifts at existing ones]
Exclusive: Musk's SpaceX says it can no longer pay for critical satellite services in Ukraine, asks Pentagon to pick up the tab | @MarquardtA reports https://t.co/AKaRGHDt3Z
— Jennifer Griffin (@JenGriffinFNC) October 14, 2022
Musk - The Ringling of our time. Ukraine = loss leaderCobretti said:Exclusive: Musk's SpaceX says it can no longer pay for critical satellite services in Ukraine, asks Pentagon to pick up the tab | @MarquardtA reports https://t.co/AKaRGHDt3Z
— Jennifer Griffin (@JenGriffinFNC) October 14, 2022
trey3216 said:
A few days after he refused to change the geofencing to acquiesce to the new battle lines and was calling for a truce since he gets a bunch of his aluminum from Russia. Shocking.
i agree with that as well, but there's also several folks who've talked to him directly saying that he told them he talked to Putin directly. And then comes the "Musk plan for peace". And then comes the starlink outages right along the lines of the Donbas and Kherson areas which Ukraine is conveniently in the process of trying to retake. And then there's the fact that Elon is a bloviating hypocrite about 99% of the time. I do appreciate what he did, but he's far from a rock solid institution of trust. Dude wafffles back and forth as the wind blows.whiterock said:trey3216 said:
A few days after he refused to change the geofencing to acquiesce to the new battle lines and was calling for a truce since he gets a bunch of his aluminum from Russia. Shocking.
I appreciate what he has done. Which is far more than any other business leader I know of. Real risk. For little or nothing. Because it was the right thing to do. Now he has shareholders and employees and customers and suppliers at risk. No shame in saying "I've done enough."
No criticism of him is warranted here. Just thanks.
Well, we disagree here. The only issue is that now Ukraine is dependent on that tech. Going in you knew this was not going to be a short term deal, how did you expect to pay for it? He has set up a situation where he has to get paid or Russia gets an advantage. In typical Musk fashion, he made a media splash and created a mess after. He has done it in EVs, Twitter, and others. Usually to his benefit. As I said, Ringling of our time.whiterock said:trey3216 said:
A few days after he refused to change the geofencing to acquiesce to the new battle lines and was calling for a truce since he gets a bunch of his aluminum from Russia. Shocking.
I appreciate what he has done. Which is far more than any other business leader I know of. Real risk. For little or nothing. Because it was the right thing to do. Now he has shareholders and employees and customers and suppliers at risk. No shame in saying "I've done enough."
No criticism of him is warranted here. Just thanks.
Neighbor's contracting business gets smoked by a tornado. You offer to let him relocate into a vacant building you own to help him survive. Neighbor is plucky, works 24hrs a day, gets a lot of sympathy from the community. You are glad to be doing your part. Then, 9 months down the road, you realize that your neighbor is actually doing business. Not getting rich, but making a go of it. And he's getting tranche after tranche of financial assistance to keep going....to get new equipment, training of new staff he's had to hire, etc..... All kinds of free PR in the media. He's like the new puppy that never grows out of cuteness. No skin off your back, except for the fact that you've got good days & bad days grappling with your own monsters. Then, your insurance company calls and starts asking questions about your fire & casualty policy on the real estate you own. Nothing has changed much on your business. Usually doesn't for and engineering/design firms, but there's that one building you own where there actually are a bunch of people handling whirling metal objects powered by internal combustion engines.....RMF5630 said:Well, we disagree here. The only issue is that now Ukraine is dependent on that tech. Going in you knew this was not going to be a short term deal, how did you expect to pay for it? He has set up a situation where he has to get paid or Russia gets an advantage. In typical Musk fashion, he made a media splash and created a mess after. He has done it in EVs, Twitter, and others. Usually to his benefit. As I said, Ringling of our time.whiterock said:trey3216 said:
A few days after he refused to change the geofencing to acquiesce to the new battle lines and was calling for a truce since he gets a bunch of his aluminum from Russia. Shocking.
I appreciate what he has done. Which is far more than any other business leader I know of. Real risk. For little or nothing. Because it was the right thing to do. Now he has shareholders and employees and customers and suppliers at risk. No shame in saying "I've done enough."
No criticism of him is warranted here. Just thanks.
Now, if he does it at cost? Than I agree with you. He charges retail?
How is he any different than the military-industrial complex other than being a non-traditional player in that arena and being identified with a name rather than a corporationRMF5630 said:Well, we disagree here. The only issue is that now Ukraine is dependent on that tech. Going in you knew this was not going to be a short term deal, how did you expect to pay for it? He has set up a situation where he has to get paid or Russia gets an advantage. In typical Musk fashion, he made a media splash and created a mess after. He has done it in EVs, Twitter, and others. Usually to his benefit. As I said, Ringling of our time.whiterock said:trey3216 said:
A few days after he refused to change the geofencing to acquiesce to the new battle lines and was calling for a truce since he gets a bunch of his aluminum from Russia. Shocking.
I appreciate what he has done. Which is far more than any other business leader I know of. Real risk. For little or nothing. Because it was the right thing to do. Now he has shareholders and employees and customers and suppliers at risk. No shame in saying "I've done enough."
No criticism of him is warranted here. Just thanks.
Now, if he does it at cost? Than I agree with you. He charges retail?
