Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

---

There was already a civil war before the invasion.

---

There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

---

Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

---

Those are.

---

Only if you think the US "invaded" Ukraine around the same time.

---

They didn't, but nice try. Election conspiracy theories don't count.

Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

---

There was already a civil war before the invasion.

---

There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

---

Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

---

Those are.

---

Only if you think the US "invaded" Ukraine around the same time.

---

We are now to the US invading Ukraine? We are at 180 degrees, give us another month and it will be 360 degrees...

Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

---

There was already a civil war before the invasion.

---

There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

---

Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

---

Those are.

---

Only if you think the US "invaded" Ukraine around the same time.

---

They didn't, but nice try. Election conspiracy theories don't count.

---

I'm not even talking about that. We've had the CIA and US Army training militias at least since 2015. Most people wouldn't call that a literal invasion, but it's your definition.

Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

---

There was already a civil war before the invasion.

---

There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

---

Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

---

Those are.

---

Only if you think the US "invaded" Ukraine around the same time.

---

They didn't, but nice try. Election conspiracy theories don't count.

---

I'm not even talking about that. We've had the CIA and US Army training militias at least since 2015. Most people wouldn't call that a literal invasion, but it's your definition.

---

Russia has had active combat units operating in theater since 2014. That's an invasion. Initially the DNR and LNR were getting their tails beat because of no popular support before Russia stepped in.

Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

---

There was already a civil war before the invasion.

---

There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

---

Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

---

Those are.

---

Only if you think the US "invaded" Ukraine around the same time.

---

They didn't, but nice try. Election conspiracy theories don't count.

---

I'm not even talking about that. We've had the CIA and US Army training militias at least since 2015. Most people wouldn't call that a literal invasion, but it's your definition.

---

We have had advisors in Ukraine, by invitation by the Ukrainian Govt. That is different than what Russia is doing. There have been no US Combat Divisions or even Brigades that I know. In other words, no force substantial enough to do anything but train.

Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

---

There was already a civil war before the invasion.

---

There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

---

Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

---

Donetskaya Narodnaya Respublika, IPA: [dnetskj nrodnj rspublk]; abbreviated as DPR or DNR) is a disputed entity created by Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine. It began as a breakaway state (20142022) and was later annexed by Russia (2022present). The DPR claims Ukraine's Donetsk Oblast.

The Luhansk or Lugansk People's Republic[d] (Russian: , romanized: Luganskaya Narodnaya Respublika, IPA: [lanskj nrodnj rspublk]; abbreviated as LPR or LNR) is a disputed entity created by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine. It began as a breakaway state (20142022) and was later annexed by Russia (2022present). The LPR claims Ukraine's Luhansk Oblast. Luhansk is the contested capital city.

Canada2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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whiterock said:

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Canada2017 said:

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He Hate Me said:

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Canada2017 said:

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He Hate Me said:

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Canada2017 said:

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He Hate Me said:

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France: Why do we need to get into a proxy war with Britain and her colonies? We don't need to antagonize the British with their massive naval fleet and far reaching power. This is a family battle. Let the colonists figure it out.

---

Really think the average French peasant had the slightest clue or care about the US war of Independence ?

French troops were sent by the French king and his ministers for ONE reason only.





To attack the interests of their mortal enemy.... Great Britain...... by depriving them of the economic bounty of the American colonies .

---

I dunno. I am not a real smart person. I just find it odd that anyone in this country is kvetching about supporting a small nation that wants to be free from an overbearing imperialist power. Especially one that has pointed nukes at us for over 60 years.

---

Get past the shallow propaganda that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen and millions of civilians in only the past 80 years.

Out Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars.
Served our country well for over a century .

---

That ship done sailed with the development of the ICBM. We are going to be involved because we cannot afford Soviet umm Russian or Chinese expansion.

---

No argument .

But now take this development to its obvious conclusion .

In this age of ICBM's why would anyone expect Russia to passively accept still another country along its border to join NATO and potentially place still more nuclear weapons aimed at Russia ?






Remember ....for weeks Putin repeatedly stated Ukrainian membership into NATO was an unacceptable risk to Russian security .

Biden ignored him .

Finally Putin places 200,000 Russian troops along the Ukrainian border .

The Biden administration through our incredibly ignorant VP Harris ....went to Europe where she STILL called for Ukraine to become a NATO ally.

Biden/Harris simply miscalculated . They thought Putin was bluffing with his 200,00 troops.

Most wars start just like this ....with hubris and stupidity .

---

When your enemy is acting with hubris and stupidity, the last thing you do is appeas

---

The last thing you do is begin a proxy war with a country possessing over 4000 hydrogen bombs .

But if you are bound and determine to do it....you DON'T pick a time when your commander in chief is so old and decrepit that he literally dozes off in the middle of an interview .

When your commander in chief is so mentally impaired he publicly addresses comments to a congresswoman the rest of the world knows is already DEAD.

This situation is so dangerous, yet so obviously absurd ...it is almost funny .

Except for that little matter of potentially of vaporizing 1-3 billion people if either side blunders into further miscalculations .

---

I don't think many on here are disagreeing with this point. I for one agree. The only issue I see is that Russia invaded, NATO did not choose the time for these policies or the US leader. Putin did, for all the reasons you say. So, this is a reaction, or opportune move, not a planned plan that we made the choice Biden is our guy...

If Trump, DeSantis, Pompeo or Halley was President, I suspect Putin would not have moved like this against Ukraine. Your points are correct in my opinion, Biden is less than adequate for this action, but the option is do nothing for 3 years...

---

So far so good.

But this is the point you either simply don't believe or don't think it's relevant…….

The United States under Obama INITIATED a fundamental change in the economic, political, and military make up in Ukraine. We 'aided' the election of a president friendly toward the United States , quietly sent our military into Ukraine to 'advise' and train with their troops, and invested billions of dollars into various industries of the country .

All of which took Ukraine further out of its traditional relationship with Russia . A relationship ( good or bad ) that had existed for centuries .

The eventual goal, of course , was to make Ukraine a trading partner of the West, a military partner of the West ….a member of NATO .

This dramatic change didn't occur in a vacuum…..didn't occur by magic . The United States actively engineered the process .

And every bit of this process was detrimental to the interests of the Russia .

Inevitably Putin and Russia pushed back ……repeatedly protesting this engineering …one that had the obvious goal of Ukrainian membership into NATO.

When it became clear words were not working ….Russia supplied weapons to ethnic Russians in the eastern provinces of Ukraine and began a proxy 'civil war ' . A civil war most Americans are only dimly aware ever existed .

The US investment politically and economically in Ukraine only increased under Biden .

Upping the ante …Putin placed 200,000 troops along the Ukrainian border . Again he repeated his message that Ukrainian membership into NATO ( with its obvious nuclear implications against Russia ) was an intolerable threat to Russian security.

Our mentally impaired president and our incredibly woke administration thought Putin was bluffing and basically told him to get stuffed .

VP Harris went to Europe and called for Ukrainian membership still again .

Russia invaded shortly afterward .

Sure the perpetually stupid can maintain the blinders and simply scream ' But Putin invaded '. But anyone with eyes can see the US clearly contributed to the situation.

Now if one says ' OK , we did contribute to beginning this war but I don't give a **** . Russia DESERVES this war '.

Ok, tell me why .

Why is it in the interests of the people of the United States to pay billions of dollars toward such a war ?

Why is it worthwhile to risk WW3 ?

Pulling Ukraine out of Russia's sphere of influence wasn't important to the United States for over 80 years .

Why is it worth risking WW3 ….NOW ?

---

Where we differ I don't disagree with the outcomes you mention. I just have a hard time with the organized, planned and engineered part. My experience does not indicate that any elected's have that much forethought or ability to pull it off! Too much credit to their capabilities of thinking beyond the next election!

I keep coming back to the same point, Russia rolled the tanks. The US and NATO did not degrade Russia with the status quo.

---

A. Of course we have engineered this transformation in Ukraine . Why else do we have bio labs in Ukraine , why has our military been TRAINING in Ukraine ? Why do you think Dems attempted to impeach Trump over a PHONE CALL to Ukraine ? Not only have we been investing in Ukraine , but a huge amount of money laundering between US and Ukraine has been ongoing .

B. Of course we degraded Russia's status quo with Ukraine . You don't supply election funds, military advisors, and billions of dollars of investments without significantly affecting prior long term relationships. Good grief man...Putin had been complaining for YEARS what the West was doing in Ukraine .

The biggest question to me ......is why NOW ? Why are we spending BILLIONS of dollars the US simply doesn't possess and risking the lives of so many people to alter a geo political reality that has existed for centuries .

---

You do seem to like conspiracy theories. I joke that I am always looking for the ulterior motive and wear a tinfoil hat, but these are even too far a leap for me.

We have been working with Ukraine for 30 years. Russia was part of it at the start. Russia signed off on all of it. Now, Putin decides he doesn't like it and is pissed. What went down and what you describe are two very different things. Even the biolabs (all Ukrainian owned and operated) have been public knowledge for 30 years and Russia was good with it. So, why the facts you state are accurate, the context and the relationship is not as clandestine and covert as you make it seem.

---

Then just blame Putin for everything .

It's the simplistic American way .

---

You are defending Putin and Russia? That is a tough sell.

---

Absurd comment .

I am not remotely defending Putin or Russia .

You simply can't absorb anything more than simplistic answers to complex realities .

---

Your constant taking of the bait on "US's fault" is implicitly defending Putin and Russia. You are white knighting their "victimhood".

Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

---

There was already a civil war before the invasion.

---

There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

---

Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

---

Those are.

---

Only if you think the US "invaded" Ukraine around the same time.

---

They didn't, but nice try. Election conspiracy theories don't count.

---

I'm not even talking about that. We've had the CIA and US Army training militias at least since 2015. Most people wouldn't call that a literal invasion, but it's your definition.

---

We've been training their army and militias because they got invaded with Crimea being taken, and we both knew that Russia would one day come to finish of the job. Ukraine being literally part of Russia has long been a Russian desire. They literally don't believe or acknowledge that there is a separate language, and a separate history.

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

---

There was already a civil war before the invasion.

---

There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

---

Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

---

Those are.

---

Only if you think the US "invaded" Ukraine around the same time.

---

They didn't, but nice try. Election conspiracy theories don't count.

---

I'm not even talking about that. We've had the CIA and US Army training militias at least since 2015. Most people wouldn't call that a literal invasion, but it's your definition.

---

Russia has had active combat units operating in theater since 2014. That's an invasion. Initially the DNR and LNR were getting their tails beat because of no popular support before Russia stepped in.

---

Allegedly, but that's still not what most people would call an invasion.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

---

There was already a civil war before the invasion.

---

There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

---

Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

---

Donetskaya Narodnaya Respublika, IPA: [dnetskj nrodnj rspublk]; abbreviated as DPR or DNR) is a disputed entity created by Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine. It began as a breakaway state (20142022) and was later annexed by Russia (2022present). The DPR claims Ukraine's Donetsk Oblast.

The Luhansk or Lugansk People's Republic[d] (Russian: , romanized: Luganskaya Narodnaya Respublika, IPA: [lanskj nrodnj rspublk]; abbreviated as LPR or LNR) is a disputed entity created by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine. It began as a breakaway state (20142022) and was later annexed by Russia (2022present). The LPR claims Ukraine's Luhansk Oblast. Luhansk is the contested capital city.

---

Like I said - a civil war.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

---

There was already a civil war before the invasion.

---

There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

---

Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

---

Those are.

---

Only if you think the US "invaded" Ukraine around the same time.

---

They didn't, but nice try. Election conspiracy theories don't count.

---

I'm not even talking about that. We've had the CIA and US Army training militias at least since 2015. Most people wouldn't call that a literal invasion, but it's your definition.

---

Russia has had active combat units operating in theater since 2014. That's an invasion. Initially the DNR and LNR were getting their tails beat because of no popular support before Russia stepped in.

---

Allegedly, but that's still not what most people would call an invasion.

---

Not even allegedly. It's well documented which units have been active and where.

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

---

There was already a civil war before the invasion.

---

There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

---

Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

---

Donetskaya Narodnaya Respublika, IPA: [dnetskj nrodnj rspublk]; abbreviated as DPR or DNR) is a disputed entity created by Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine. It began as a breakaway state (20142022) and was later annexed by Russia (2022present). The DPR claims Ukraine's Donetsk Oblast.

The Luhansk or Lugansk People's Republic[d] (Russian: , romanized: Luganskaya Narodnaya Respublika, IPA: [lanskj nrodnj rspublk]; abbreviated as LPR or LNR) is a disputed entity created by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine. It began as a breakaway state (20142022) and was later annexed by Russia (2022present). The LPR claims Ukraine's Luhansk Oblast. Luhansk is the contested capital city.

---

Like I said - a civil war.

---

Not really.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

---

There was already a civil war before the invasion.

---

There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

---

Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

---

Those are.

---

Only if you think the US "invaded" Ukraine around the same time.

---

They didn't, but nice try. Election conspiracy theories don't count.

---

I'm not even talking about that. We've had the CIA and US Army training militias at least since 2015. Most people wouldn't call that a literal invasion, but it's your definition.

---

Russia has had active combat units operating in theater since 2014. That's an invasion. Initially the DNR and LNR were getting their tails beat because of no popular support before Russia stepped in.

---

Allegedly, but that's still not what most people would call an invasion.

---

You roll tanks into a Nation without an invitation by the sitting Government, that is pretty much an invasion.



I literally cannot find one description that does not call it an invasion.

Obviously the present situation is an invasion. My point is that it was preceded by a civil war. If you don't want to call it a civil war, it doesn't really matter. Whatever you call it, it was a conflict which the United States exacerbated instead of helping to resolve and which led to the current crisis.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Obviously the present situation is an invasion. My point is that it was preceded by a civil war. If you don't want to call it a civil war, it doesn't really matter. Whatever you call it, it was a conflict which the United States exacerbated instead of helping to resolve and which led to the current crisis.

---

Also not really.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Obviously the present situation is an invasion. My point is that it was preceded by a civil war. If you don't want to call it a civil war, it doesn't really matter. Whatever you call it, it was a conflict which the United States exacerbated instead of helping to resolve and which led to the current crisis.

---

And there are no Russian Nationals firing the "break aways". This is classic Russian strategy, start unrest around the border and claim you are invading to protect Russians. The US Special Forces focus on training, Spetznaz focus on seeding unrest.

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

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He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

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He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

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He Hate Me said:

---

France: Why do we need to get into a proxy war with Britain and her colonies? We don't need to antagonize the British with their massive naval fleet and far reaching power. This is a family battle. Let the colonists figure it out.

---

Really think the average French peasant had the slightest clue or care about the US war of Independence ?

French troops were sent by the French king and his ministers for ONE reason only.





To attack the interests of their mortal enemy.... Great Britain...... by depriving them of the economic bounty of the American colonies .

---

I dunno. I am not a real smart person. I just find it odd that anyone in this country is kvetching about supporting a small nation that wants to be free from an overbearing imperialist power. Especially one that has pointed nukes at us for over 60 years.

---

Get past the shallow propaganda that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen and millions of civilians in only the past 80 years.

Out Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars.
Served our country well for over a century .

---

That ship done sailed with the development of the ICBM. We are going to be involved because we cannot afford Soviet umm Russian or Chinese expansion.

---

No argument .

But now take this development to its obvious conclusion .

In this age of ICBM's why would anyone expect Russia to passively accept still another country along its border to join NATO and potentially place still more nuclear weapons aimed at Russia ?






Remember ....for weeks Putin repeatedly stated Ukrainian membership into NATO was an unacceptable risk to Russian security .

Biden ignored him .

Finally Putin places 200,000 Russian troops along the Ukrainian border .

The Biden administration through our incredibly ignorant VP Harris ....went to Europe where she STILL called for Ukraine to become a NATO ally.

Biden/Harris simply miscalculated . They thought Putin was bluffing with his 200,00 troops.

Most wars start just like this ....with hubris and stupidity .

---

When your enemy is acting with hubris and stupidity, the last thing you do is appeas

---

The last thing you do is begin a proxy war with a country possessing over 4000 hydrogen bombs .

But if you are bound and determine to do it....you DON'T pick a time when your commander in chief is so old and decrepit that he literally dozes off in the middle of an interview .

When your commander in chief is so mentally impaired he publicly addresses comments to a congresswoman the rest of the world knows is already DEAD.

This situation is so dangerous, yet so obviously absurd ...it is almost funny .

Except for that little matter of potentially of vaporizing 1-3 billion people if either side blunders into further miscalculations .

---

I don't think many on here are disagreeing with this point. I for one agree. The only issue I see is that Russia invaded, NATO did not choose the time for these policies or the US leader. Putin did, for all the reasons you say. So, this is a reaction, or opportune move, not a planned plan that we made the choice Biden is our guy...

If Trump, DeSantis, Pompeo or Halley was President, I suspect Putin would not have moved like this against Ukraine. Your points are correct in my opinion, Biden is less than adequate for this action, but the option is do nothing for 3 years...

---

So far so good.

But this is the point you either simply don't believe or don't think it's relevant…….

The United States under Obama INITIATED a fundamental change in the economic, political, and military make up in Ukraine. We 'aided' the election of a president friendly toward the United States , quietly sent our military into Ukraine to 'advise' and train with their troops, and invested billions of dollars into various industries of the country .

All of which took Ukraine further out of its traditional relationship with Russia . A relationship ( good or bad ) that had existed for centuries .

The eventual goal, of course , was to make Ukraine a trading partner of the West, a military partner of the West ….a member of NATO .

This dramatic change didn't occur in a vacuum…..didn't occur by magic . The United States actively engineered the process .

And every bit of this process was detrimental to the interests of the Russia .

Inevitably Putin and Russia pushed back ……repeatedly protesting this engineering …one that had the obvious goal of Ukrainian membership into NATO.

When it became clear words were not working ….Russia supplied weapons to ethnic Russians in the eastern provinces of Ukraine and began a proxy 'civil war ' . A civil war most Americans are only dimly aware ever existed .

The US investment politically and economically in Ukraine only increased under Biden .

Upping the ante …Putin placed 200,000 troops along the Ukrainian border . Again he repeated his message that Ukrainian membership into NATO ( with its obvious nuclear implications against Russia ) was an intolerable threat to Russian security.

Our mentally impaired president and our incredibly woke administration thought Putin was bluffing and basically told him to get stuffed .

VP Harris went to Europe and called for Ukrainian membership still again .

Russia invaded shortly afterward .

Sure the perpetually stupid can maintain the blinders and simply scream ' But Putin invaded '. But anyone with eyes can see the US clearly contributed to the situation.

Now if one says ' OK , we did contribute to beginning this war but I don't give a **** . Russia DESERVES this war '.

Ok, tell me why .

Why is it in the interests of the people of the United States to pay billions of dollars toward such a war ?

Why is it worthwhile to risk WW3 ?

Pulling Ukraine out of Russia's sphere of influence wasn't important to the United States for over 80 years .

Why is it worth risking WW3 ….NOW ?

---

Where we differ I don't disagree with the outcomes you mention. I just have a hard time with the organized, planned and engineered part. My experience does not indicate that any elected's have that much forethought or ability to pull it off! Too much credit to their capabilities of thinking beyond the next election!

I keep coming back to the same point, Russia rolled the tanks. The US and NATO did not degrade Russia with the status quo.

---

A. Of course we have engineered this transformation in Ukraine . Why else do we have bio labs in Ukraine , why has our military been TRAINING in Ukraine ? Why do you think Dems attempted to impeach Trump over a PHONE CALL to Ukraine ? Not only have we been investing in Ukraine , but a huge amount of money laundering between US and Ukraine has been ongoing .

B. Of course we degraded Russia's status quo with Ukraine . You don't supply election funds, military advisors, and billions of dollars of investments without significantly affecting prior long term relationships. Good grief man...Putin had been complaining for YEARS what the West was doing in Ukraine .

The biggest question to me ......is why NOW ? Why are we spending BILLIONS of dollars the US simply doesn't possess and risking the lives of so many people to alter a geo political reality that has existed for centuries .

---

You do seem to like conspiracy theories. I joke that I am always looking for the ulterior motive and wear a tinfoil hat, but these are even too far a leap for me.

We have been working with Ukraine for 30 years. Russia was part of it at the start. Russia signed off on all of it. Now, Putin decides he doesn't like it and is pissed. What went down and what you describe are two very different things. Even the biolabs (all Ukrainian owned and operated) have been public knowledge for 30 years and Russia was good with it. So, why the facts you state are accurate, the context and the relationship is not as clandestine and covert as you make it seem.

---

Then just blame Putin for everything .

It's the simplistic American way .

---

You are defending Putin and Russia? That is a tough sell.

---

Absurd comment .

I am not remotely defending Putin or Russia .

You simply can't absorb anything more than simplistic answers to complex realities .

---

Your constant taking of the bait on "US's fault" is implicitly defending Putin and Russia. You are white knighting their "victimhood".

---

Ridiculous.

Just wrap yourself in simplistic Dem propaganda while screaming ' Love it or leave it !!! ' .

Worked pretty well in the 60's .

At least until the Tet Offensive .


Only then did the lights finally come on and the American people started questioning the government's lies .

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

That would be incorrect. He and his party had as a platform to end the war in the East, but it wasn't right wing extremists that kept that from happening though. Of course Russia will tell you that along with Nazi stories. I mean Russia started the wars in Luhansk and Donetsk, and then the US is getting blamed for stopping the peace. And this of course came after the invasion and take over of Crimea. And now they're trying to conquer the whole of Ukraine. But Nazi right-wingers and the US are the problem! Good grief, tell me you're a Russian parrot without telling me you're a Russian parrot.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

That would be incorrect. He and his party had as a platform to end the war in the East, but it wasn't right wing extremists that kept that from happening though. Of course Russia will tell you that along with Nazi stories. I mean Russia started the wars in Luhansk and Donetsk, and then the US is getting blamed for stopping the peace. And this of course came after the invasion and take over of Crimea. And now they're trying to conquer the whole of Ukraine. But Nazi right-wingers and the US are the problem! Good grief, tell me you're a Russian parrot without telling me you're a Russian parrot.

---

I admire Zelenskiy.....a brave man and an inspirational leader.

But that doesn't mean Americans are required to spend billions of dollars supporting his cause.

Not when the US is trillions in debt and can't even provide decent shelter for our hundreds of thousands of homeless.

Many of whom are veterans .

Canada2017 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

France: Why do we need to get into a proxy war with Britain and her colonies? We don't need to antagonize the British with their massive naval fleet and far reaching power. This is a family battle. Let the colonists figure it out.

---

Really think the average French peasant had the slightest clue or care about the US war of Independence ?

French troops were sent by the French king and his ministers for ONE reason only.





To attack the interests of their mortal enemy.... Great Britain...... by depriving them of the economic bounty of the American colonies .

---

I dunno. I am not a real smart person. I just find it odd that anyone in this country is kvetching about supporting a small nation that wants to be free from an overbearing imperialist power. Especially one that has pointed nukes at us for over 60 years.

---

Get past the shallow propaganda that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen and millions of civilians in only the past 80 years.

Out Founding Fathers constantly preached the message........the US should stay OUT of foreign wars.
Served our country well for over a century .

---

That ship done sailed with the development of the ICBM. We are going to be involved because we cannot afford Soviet umm Russian or Chinese expansion.

---

No argument .

But now take this development to its obvious conclusion .

In this age of ICBM's why would anyone expect Russia to passively accept still another country along its border to join NATO and potentially place still more nuclear weapons aimed at Russia ?






Remember ....for weeks Putin repeatedly stated Ukrainian membership into NATO was an unacceptable risk to Russian security .

Biden ignored him .

Finally Putin places 200,000 Russian troops along the Ukrainian border .

The Biden administration through our incredibly ignorant VP Harris ....went to Europe where she STILL called for Ukraine to become a NATO ally.

Biden/Harris simply miscalculated . They thought Putin was bluffing with his 200,00 troops.

Most wars start just like this ....with hubris and stupidity .

---

When your enemy is acting with hubris and stupidity, the last thing you do is appeas

---

The last thing you do is begin a proxy war with a country possessing over 4000 hydrogen bombs .

But if you are bound and determine to do it....you DON'T pick a time when your commander in chief is so old and decrepit that he literally dozes off in the middle of an interview .

When your commander in chief is so mentally impaired he publicly addresses comments to a congresswoman the rest of the world knows is already DEAD.

This situation is so dangerous, yet so obviously absurd ...it is almost funny .

Except for that little matter of potentially of vaporizing 1-3 billion people if either side blunders into further miscalculations .

---

I don't think many on here are disagreeing with this point. I for one agree. The only issue I see is that Russia invaded, NATO did not choose the time for these policies or the US leader. Putin did, for all the reasons you say. So, this is a reaction, or opportune move, not a planned plan that we made the choice Biden is our guy...

If Trump, DeSantis, Pompeo or Halley was President, I suspect Putin would not have moved like this against Ukraine. Your points are correct in my opinion, Biden is less than adequate for this action, but the option is do nothing for 3 years...

---

So far so good.

But this is the point you either simply don't believe or don't think it's relevant…….

The United States under Obama INITIATED a fundamental change in the economic, political, and military make up in Ukraine. We 'aided' the election of a president friendly toward the United States , quietly sent our military into Ukraine to 'advise' and train with their troops, and invested billions of dollars into various industries of the country .

All of which took Ukraine further out of its traditional relationship with Russia . A relationship ( good or bad ) that had existed for centuries .

The eventual goal, of course , was to make Ukraine a trading partner of the West, a military partner of the West ….a member of NATO .

This dramatic change didn't occur in a vacuum…..didn't occur by magic . The United States actively engineered the process .

And every bit of this process was detrimental to the interests of the Russia .

Inevitably Putin and Russia pushed back ……repeatedly protesting this engineering …one that had the obvious goal of Ukrainian membership into NATO.

When it became clear words were not working ….Russia supplied weapons to ethnic Russians in the eastern provinces of Ukraine and began a proxy 'civil war ' . A civil war most Americans are only dimly aware ever existed .

The US investment politically and economically in Ukraine only increased under Biden .

Upping the ante …Putin placed 200,000 troops along the Ukrainian border . Again he repeated his message that Ukrainian membership into NATO ( with its obvious nuclear implications against Russia ) was an intolerable threat to Russian security.

Our mentally impaired president and our incredibly woke administration thought Putin was bluffing and basically told him to get stuffed .

VP Harris went to Europe and called for Ukrainian membership still again .

Russia invaded shortly afterward .

Sure the perpetually stupid can maintain the blinders and simply scream ' But Putin invaded '. But anyone with eyes can see the US clearly contributed to the situation.

Now if one says ' OK , we did contribute to beginning this war but I don't give a **** . Russia DESERVES this war '.

Ok, tell me why .

Why is it in the interests of the people of the United States to pay billions of dollars toward such a war ?

Why is it worthwhile to risk WW3 ?

Pulling Ukraine out of Russia's sphere of influence wasn't important to the United States for over 80 years .

Why is it worth risking WW3 ….NOW ?

---

Where we differ I don't disagree with the outcomes you mention. I just have a hard time with the organized, planned and engineered part. My experience does not indicate that any elected's have that much forethought or ability to pull it off! Too much credit to their capabilities of thinking beyond the next election!

I keep coming back to the same point, Russia rolled the tanks. The US and NATO did not degrade Russia with the status quo.

---

A. Of course we have engineered this transformation in Ukraine . Why else do we have bio labs in Ukraine , why has our military been TRAINING in Ukraine ? Why do you think Dems attempted to impeach Trump over a PHONE CALL to Ukraine ? Not only have we been investing in Ukraine , but a huge amount of money laundering between US and Ukraine has been ongoing .

B. Of course we degraded Russia's status quo with Ukraine . You don't supply election funds, military advisors, and billions of dollars of investments without significantly affecting prior long term relationships. Good grief man...Putin had been complaining for YEARS what the West was doing in Ukraine .

The biggest question to me ......is why NOW ? Why are we spending BILLIONS of dollars the US simply doesn't possess and risking the lives of so many people to alter a geo political reality that has existed for centuries .

---

You do seem to like conspiracy theories. I joke that I am always looking for the ulterior motive and wear a tinfoil hat, but these are even too far a leap for me.

We have been working with Ukraine for 30 years. Russia was part of it at the start. Russia signed off on all of it. Now, Putin decides he doesn't like it and is pissed. What went down and what you describe are two very different things. Even the biolabs (all Ukrainian owned and operated) have been public knowledge for 30 years and Russia was good with it. So, why the facts you state are accurate, the context and the relationship is not as clandestine and covert as you make it seem.

---

Then just blame Putin for everything .

It's the simplistic American way .

---

You are defending Putin and Russia? That is a tough sell.

---

Absurd comment .

I am not remotely defending Putin or Russia .

You simply can't absorb anything more than simplistic answers to complex realities .

---

Your constant taking of the bait on "US's fault" is implicitly defending Putin and Russia. You are white knighting their "victimhood".

---

Ridiculous.

Just wrap yourself in simplistic Dem propaganda while screaming ' Love it or leave it !!! ' .

Worked pretty well in the 60's .

At least until the Tet Offensive .


Only then did the lights finally come on and the American people started questioning the government's lies .

---

that's it. I'm subjected to "Dem" propaganda. " I fall for it every time". Jeez dude, you're becoming a walking parody/caricature.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

There are an awful lot of miscalculations that have to be made to get from today to thermonuclear war.

But, as I've said. You have made a few prescient points.

https://babylonbee.com/news/man-pretending-to-be-woman-visits-man-pretending-to-be-president?utm_source=The%20Babylon%20Bee%20Newsletter&utm_medium=email



Remember ....for weeks Putin repeatedly stated Ukrainian membership into NATO was an unacceptable risk to Russian security .

Biden ignored him .

Finally Putin places 200,000 Russian troops along the Ukrainian border .

The Biden administration through our incredibly ignorant VP Harris ....went to Europe where she STILL called for Ukraine to become a NATO ally.

Biden/Harris simply miscalculated . They thought Putin was bluffing with his 200,00 troops.

Most wars start just like this ....with hubris and stupidity .

---

When your enemy is acting with hubris and stupidity, the last thing you do is appeas

---

The last thing you do is begin a proxy war with a country possessing over 4000 hydrogen bombs .

But if you are bound and determine to do it....you DON'T pick a time when your commander in chief is so old and decrepit that he literally dozes off in the middle of an interview .

When your commander in chief is so mentally impaired he publicly addresses comments to a congresswoman the rest of the world knows is already DEAD.

This situation is so dangerous, yet so obviously absurd ...it is almost funny .

Except for that little matter of potentially of vaporizing 1-3 billion people if either side blunders into further miscalculations .

---

Except that proxy wars in shatter zones are exactly how major powers have confronted each other for millennia. It's literally THE game. The list of proxy wars in our lifetimes is quite long. The list of such conflicts involving one or more major power in the last two centuries which did NOT involve the use of proxies is slmost non-existent. The reason is simple. When your opponent advances into the shatter zone, you use available proxies in that shatter zone to frustrate him, and if possibly defeat him. Russia does it. China does it. We do it. Even far, far weaker powers do it. It is how the game is played. It is how the game will always be played.

Within that context, the idea that this particular proxy war is any more dangerous than others is silly, and the nuclear hyperbole is merely an effort to dodge an otherwise weak argument.

Our Chief of State is indeed a doddering old man well into his senescence. That we can win proxy wars (fairly easily and inexpensively) with such elected leadership says a lot about how powerful the USA really is. Now, Putin did reason similarly to you....that Biden's deficiencies gave Russia an opportunity to move. But that has proven to be just one of several strategically fatal Russian calculations about Ukraine.

We have hydrogen bombs, too.
Russia should be a little more careful about angering us.
There is no better way of reminding them of that than ensuring they lose in Ukraine.
And we have a proxy entirely capable of inflicting that loss.
So we will.

---

Actually respect your honesty here.

You think its all a game .....somehow a worthwhile game where thousands of people get killed, millions more have their lives totally disrupted and have to flee to other countries .....and billions of dollars are wasted.

You think somehow we are going to 'win' this 'game'. Guess what .........the thousands of dead Ukrainian men, women and children are NEVER going to 'win'. Really think their surviving family members appreciate this 'game' ?

The obvious fact that the US lost trillions of dollars playing your 'game' in Korea , Vietnam , Iraq, and a host of other wars doesn't make any impression on you . Because ( let's be honest ) you think you're totally insulated from the violence and none of this BS will ever directly affect you .

Well guess what buddy .

When your commander in chief is so old and brain damaged that he can't even stay awake or speak in coherent sentences ....that in itself is a huge game changer .

And both WW1 and WW2 began step by step ......in eerily similar manners to this *****

And for what ?

So the elites can play their 'game' safely far away from the carnage that is killing their minions .

But THIS time......we are all at risk.

That you think its impossible for further miscalculations ....with this idiot of a president involved.......is mind blowing .

---

---

There are an awful lot of miscalculations that have to be made to get from today to thermonuclear war.

---

Which is why it's alarming to see so many questionable or downright false assumptions in the anti-war argument.

---

FIFY

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

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So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

Sam Lowry said:

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snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

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An invasion isn't a civil war. Never was.

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There was already a civil war before the invasion.

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There was not. Invasion started in 2014. Those were Russian units and Russian led "separatists". The DNR and LNR are Russian puppets. Always have been.

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Thanks, but I'll stick with the standard definitions.

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Those are.

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Only if you think the US "invaded" Ukraine around the same time.

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They didn't, but nice try. Election conspiracy theories don't count.

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I'm not even talking about that. We've had the CIA and US Army training Ukraine military forces at least since 2015. Most people wouldn't call that a literal invasion, but it's your definition.

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FIFY

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

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And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

He psychically willed the towel to fall.

(cf the ConeHeads movie, if you're old enough)

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

escalated which civil war?

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

escalated which civil war?

---

The Donbas war.

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

It's one thing to send aid until peace is achieved. It's another thing to stand in the way of peace. It shouldn't be for us to deny Russia an honorable exit.

The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

Bear8084 said:

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The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

---

It's never that simple .

There are many ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who want the Russian military to remain .

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

It's like reading an article from RT.

Canada2017 said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

---

It's never that simple .

There are many ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who want the Russian military to remain .

---

There are not.

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

---

It's never that simple .

There are many ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who want the Russian military to remain .

---

There are not.

---

So these ethnic Russians who had been fighting the Ukrainians for years for independence…..don't exist ?