BaylorJacket said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Reread your copy of Cold Case Christianity. Many sources are listed there.

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/amp/

---

• Tacitus wrote briefly about Jesus in his work "Annals," which was completed around 116 AD, some 80 years after Jesus' death from second and thirdhand sources
• "Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."
• I personally believe Tacitus is one of the best references for the Historical Jesus

• We don't have any of his writings, but someone referencing him in 221AD
• Thallus does not claim to be an eye witness but his account is based on second and thirdhand information

• Mara Bar-Serapion is a relatively obscure figure from antiquity, and his letter that references a "wise king" who was executed by the Romans is one of the few surviving extra-biblical references to Jesus from the first century.
• However, the letter does not provide a detailed account of Jesus or his life, and it is unclear whether the "wise king" mentioned in the letter is actually a reference to Jesus.

• Another historical figure who has survived only by fragments and references made by other authors
• The only reference of his (according to my knoweldge) about Jesus is made by Julius Africanus quoting Phlegon on the darkness during the crucifixion of Jesus

• None of his writings mention Jesus
• In a letter, he describes Christian worship practices

• None of his writings mention Jesus

• None of his writings mention Jesus

• A 2nd Century Greek Philosopher who provided an early critique of Christianity
• His critiques focused on the teachings of Jesus and the beliefs of his followers, nothing regarding any historical information of Jesus himself

• Josephus is an interesting character, who barely mentions Jesus, but instead mentions him when briefly speaking on James
• "Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned."
- Antiquities of the Jews
• While some scholars dispute the authenticity of his work, most historians and scholars consider Josephus to be a generally reliable source for information about the Roman Empire and Jewish history.

• The Talmud does not provide any direct information about the life of Jesus or his teachings

• I think we can both agree that it would be silly to use The Toledot Yeshu as a resource for the historicity of Jesus, as it was composed in the Middle Ages

BUwolverine2012 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

you ever known someone. then they died and you see their lifeless body. explain that to me without god

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

Were any of them a contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who spoke directly with those disciples who were first hand eyewitnesses, and who wrote letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection which affirmed those things, like the apostle Paul?

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BaylorJacket said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I fortunately had the time last year to read The Case for Christ, Cold Case Christianity, and the Case for the Resurrection, but was not convinced by any of the evidence presented.

---

I certainly appreciate your honest effort to answer these questions inside of you.

What was the best evidence that you thought any of Christ or Resurrection did you find most compelling, but ultimately couldn't completely "scratch your itch"?

Lastly, just as a point of reference, do you believe Jesus the rabbi, existed?

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To be honest there really wasn't any one piece of evidence that I found compelling, but I did find it incredibly interesting that the resurrection's first witnesses were female (counter culture of patriarchal prowess of the ancient world). This was not something that I connected the dots on during my normal reading of the Gospels.

I think it is more probable than not that a Jesus figure existed in Judea, but I am not very confident in that assertion. The Mythicists have some compelling arguments, and unfortunately so much has been lost to time.

---

I think your second paragraph speaks volumes. Any serious historian that has looked into Jesus has concluded He was a historical being. It matters not if the historian is Christian, Jew or agnostic or atheist. There is ample evidence to support the life and crucifixion of Jesus.

As I said before, if a person wants to find excuses, that's what they'll find.

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Could you please provide the ample evidence of the life and crucifixion of Jesus?

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Do you eliminate the bible as a historical document? Paul wrote some of his letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection, and he affirms that Jesus did exist, and that he was crucified, and that he rose again. Paul stayed with and spoke to the disciple Peter for 15 days, so he had close contact with a firsthand eyewitness. Paul was an enemy of Christianity and heavily persecuted Christians before he converted.

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Yes - the Bible is not a comprehensive historical record, and not all of its stories and teachings are meant to be taken as literal historical accounts. The Bible is a religious text that conveys theological and moral truths, and it is interpreted and understood in different ways by different religious traditions.

Is it a historical document? No. That being said, there is plenty of history found in the bible.

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

Were any of them a contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who spoke directly with those disciples who were first hand eyewitnesses, and who wrote letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection which affirmed those things, like the apostle Paul?

---

Given that all of the listed scholars are from the past ~2 centuries I think it's safe to say that they did not know Jesus personally.

The earliest of Paul's letters were approximately 20-30 years after Jesus' death, but what I find fascinating about Paul is that he supposedly spent a few weeks with some of the disciples, yet never mentions any of Jesus' miracles or sayings in any of his letters. You'd think raising Lazarus from the dead, or turning water into wine would be something shared at the dinner table.

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

Were any of them a contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who spoke directly with those disciples who were first hand eyewitnesses, and who wrote letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection which affirmed those things, like the apostle Paul?

---

Given that all of the listed scholars are from the past ~2 centuries I think it's safe to say that they did not know Jesus personally.

The earliest of Paul's letters were approximately 20-30 years after Jesus' death, but what I find fascinating about Paul is that he supposedly spent a few weeks with some of the disciples, yet never mentions any of Jesus' miracles or sayings in any of his letters. You'd think raising Lazarus from the dead, or turning water into wine would be something shared at the dinner table.

---

BaylorJacket said:

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BUwolverine2012 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

---

I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

you ever known someone. then they died and you see their lifeless body. explain that to me without god

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Apologies if I am misunderstanding - you are saying seeing someones lifeless body is evidence for god?

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BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

And what about Paul's writings? Is there reason to doubt an actual historical Jesus, his crucifixion, and his resurrection as affirmed by him?

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

Were any of them a contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who spoke directly with those disciples who were first hand eyewitnesses, and who wrote letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection which affirmed those things, like the apostle Paul?

---

Given that all of the listed scholars are from the past ~2 centuries I think it's safe to say that they did not know Jesus personally.

The earliest of Paul's letters were approximately 20-30 years after Jesus' death, but what I find fascinating about Paul is that he supposedly spent a few weeks with some of the disciples, yet never mentions any of Jesus' miracles or sayings in any of his letters. You'd think raising Lazarus from the dead, or turning water into wine would be something shared at the dinner table.

---

Ok, but you're diverting from the point: would Paul's letters be a reliable indicator of the historical Jesus, his life, crucifixion, and resurrection? Why or why not?

I'm purely speculating, but he probably felt he only had the authority to write about HIS encounter with Jesus, and preach based on his knowledge of the Torah and how Jesus was the promised Messiah, rather than rely on hearsay, being that he never witnessed what the disciples did.

But also consider that it is interesting, how he spent a few weeks with the disciples, and then kept on preaching about Jesus, his crucifixion, and resurrection. No doubt that if any of those things weren't true, that would have come up at the dinner table as well.

---

JXL said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

Were any of them a contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who spoke directly with those disciples who were first hand eyewitnesses, and who wrote letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection which affirmed those things, like the apostle Paul?

---

Given that all of the listed scholars are from the past ~2 centuries I think it's safe to say that they did not know Jesus personally.

The earliest of Paul's letters were approximately 20-30 years after Jesus' death, but what I find fascinating about Paul is that he supposedly spent a few weeks with some of the disciples, yet never mentions any of Jesus' miracles or sayings in any of his letters. You'd think raising Lazarus from the dead, or turning water into wine would be something shared at the dinner table.

---

Why would Paul have mentioned these, particularly since he wasn't there to experience them?

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

"I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not."

Then you immediately followed that with " but I am not very confident in that assertion."

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

Were any of them a contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who spoke directly with those disciples who were first hand eyewitnesses, and who wrote letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection which affirmed those things, like the apostle Paul?

---

Given that all of the listed scholars are from the past ~2 centuries I think it's safe to say that they did not know Jesus personally.

The earliest of Paul's letters were approximately 20-30 years after Jesus' death, but what I find fascinating about Paul is that he supposedly spent a few weeks with some of the disciples, yet never mentions any of Jesus' miracles or sayings in any of his letters. You'd think raising Lazarus from the dead, or turning water into wine would be something shared at the dinner table.

---

Ok, but you're diverting from the point: would Paul's letters be a reliable indicator of the historical Jesus, his life, crucifixion, and resurrection? Why or why not?

I'm purely speculating, but he probably felt he only had the authority to write about HIS encounter with Jesus, and preach based on his knowledge of the Torah and how Jesus was the promised Messiah, rather than rely on hearsay, being that he never witnessed what the disciples did.

But also consider that it is interesting, how he spent a few weeks with the disciples, and then kept on preaching about Jesus, his crucifixion, and resurrection. No doubt that if any of those things weren't true, that would have come up at the dinner table as well.

---

Yes, Paul's letters must absolutely be considered when consolidating 1st Century written documentation of Jesus.

We'd first need to choose which letters to use as evidence, as many were potentially not written by Paul (Ephesians, Colossians, the Epistles, etc).

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

JXL said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

Were any of them a contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who spoke directly with those disciples who were first hand eyewitnesses, and who wrote letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection which affirmed those things, like the apostle Paul?

---

Given that all of the listed scholars are from the past ~2 centuries I think it's safe to say that they did not know Jesus personally.

The earliest of Paul's letters were approximately 20-30 years after Jesus' death, but what I find fascinating about Paul is that he supposedly spent a few weeks with some of the disciples, yet never mentions any of Jesus' miracles or sayings in any of his letters. You'd think raising Lazarus from the dead, or turning water into wine would be something shared at the dinner table.

---

Why would Paul have mentioned these, particularly since he wasn't there to experience them?

---

Given that Paul never even claimed to have actually met Jesus, but instead had a vision of him, this logic could be used for essentially everything Paul said.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

Were any of them a contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who spoke directly with those disciples who were first hand eyewitnesses, and who wrote letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection which affirmed those things, like the apostle Paul?

---

Given that all of the listed scholars are from the past ~2 centuries I think it's safe to say that they did not know Jesus personally.

The earliest of Paul's letters were approximately 20-30 years after Jesus' death, but what I find fascinating about Paul is that he supposedly spent a few weeks with some of the disciples, yet never mentions any of Jesus' miracles or sayings in any of his letters. You'd think raising Lazarus from the dead, or turning water into wine would be something shared at the dinner table.

---

Ok, but you're diverting from the point: would Paul's letters be a reliable indicator of the historical Jesus, his life, crucifixion, and resurrection? Why or why not?

I'm purely speculating, but he probably felt he only had the authority to write about HIS encounter with Jesus, and preach based on his knowledge of the Torah and how Jesus was the promised Messiah, rather than rely on hearsay, being that he never witnessed what the disciples did.

But also consider that it is interesting, how he spent a few weeks with the disciples, and then kept on preaching about Jesus, his crucifixion, and resurrection. No doubt that if any of those things weren't true, that would have come up at the dinner table as well.

---

Yes, Paul's letters must absolutely be considered when consolidating 1st Century written documentation of Jesus.

We'd first need to choose which letters to use as evidence, as many were potentially not written by Paul (Ephesians, Colossians, the Epistles, etc).

---

No scholar doubts the authenticity of Romans, Corinthians, Phillipians, Thessalonians, Philemon. Shall we start there?

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

JXL said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

Were any of them a contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who spoke directly with those disciples who were first hand eyewitnesses, and who wrote letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection which affirmed those things, like the apostle Paul?

---

Given that all of the listed scholars are from the past ~2 centuries I think it's safe to say that they did not know Jesus personally.

The earliest of Paul's letters were approximately 20-30 years after Jesus' death, but what I find fascinating about Paul is that he supposedly spent a few weeks with some of the disciples, yet never mentions any of Jesus' miracles or sayings in any of his letters. You'd think raising Lazarus from the dead, or turning water into wine would be something shared at the dinner table.

---

Why would Paul have mentioned these, particularly since he wasn't there to experience them?

---

Given that Paul never even claimed to have actually met Jesus, but instead had a vision of him, this logic could be used for essentially everything Paul said.

---

I don't know how anyone can say that Paul didn't "meet" Jesus based on his account on the road to Damascus, where Paul and his traveling companions saw a bright light and fell to the ground, and where Jesus spoke with him. Also, he was blinded until a man sent by Jesus healed him, in order to prove it was real. Sounds like much more than just a vision. Sounds like he's saying he met Jesus to me.

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

"I am a follower of Christ who believes in a higher being that created the universe."-Baylorjacket 4/19/22

So what has changed?

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

Were any of them a contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who spoke directly with those disciples who were first hand eyewitnesses, and who wrote letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection which affirmed those things, like the apostle Paul?

---

Given that all of the listed scholars are from the past ~2 centuries I think it's safe to say that they did not know Jesus personally.

The earliest of Paul's letters were approximately 20-30 years after Jesus' death, but what I find fascinating about Paul is that he supposedly spent a few weeks with some of the disciples, yet never mentions any of Jesus' miracles or sayings in any of his letters. You'd think raising Lazarus from the dead, or turning water into wine would be something shared at the dinner table.

---

Ok, but you're diverting from the point: would Paul's letters be a reliable indicator of the historical Jesus, his life, crucifixion, and resurrection? Why or why not?

I'm purely speculating, but he probably felt he only had the authority to write about HIS encounter with Jesus, and preach based on his knowledge of the Torah and how Jesus was the promised Messiah, rather than rely on hearsay, being that he never witnessed what the disciples did.

But also consider that it is interesting, how he spent a few weeks with the disciples, and then kept on preaching about Jesus, his crucifixion, and resurrection. No doubt that if any of those things weren't true, that would have come up at the dinner table as well.

---

Yes, Paul's letters must absolutely be considered when consolidating 1st Century written documentation of Jesus.

We'd first need to choose which letters to use as evidence, as many were potentially not written by Paul (Ephesians, Colossians, the Epistles, etc).

---

No scholar doubts the authenticity of Romans, Corinthians, Phillipians, Thessalonians, Philemon. Shall we start there?

---

I would avoid blanket statements like that, but sure - seems fair to me.

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

JXL said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

Were any of them a contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who spoke directly with those disciples who were first hand eyewitnesses, and who wrote letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection which affirmed those things, like the apostle Paul?

---

Given that all of the listed scholars are from the past ~2 centuries I think it's safe to say that they did not know Jesus personally.

The earliest of Paul's letters were approximately 20-30 years after Jesus' death, but what I find fascinating about Paul is that he supposedly spent a few weeks with some of the disciples, yet never mentions any of Jesus' miracles or sayings in any of his letters. You'd think raising Lazarus from the dead, or turning water into wine would be something shared at the dinner table.

---

Why would Paul have mentioned these, particularly since he wasn't there to experience them?

---

Given that Paul never even claimed to have actually met Jesus, but instead had a vision of him, this logic could be used for essentially everything Paul said.

---

I don't know how anyone can say that Paul didn't "meet" Jesus based on his account on the road to Damascus, where Paul and his traveling companions saw a bright light and fell to the ground, and where Jesus spoke with him. Also, he was blinded until a man sent by Jesus healed him, in order to prove it was real. Sounds like much more than just a vision. Sounds like he's saying he met Jesus to me.

---

Where do we find that info …? In Acts, classically attributed to Luke but we have no idea who that author actually is.

Paul himself, in his letters, mentions nothing of the sort.

The closest we get is the first chapter of Galatians:
" But when God, who had set me apart from the womb of my mother and had called by through his grace was pleased to reveal his son to me, so that I might preach him among the gentiles, immediately I did not consult with flesh and blood. Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me. But I went off to Arabia and again, then, returned to Damascus"

In 1 Corinthians, he mentions a vision of Jesus.

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

"I am a follower of Christ who believes in a higher being that created the universe."-Baylorjacket 4/19/22

So what has changed?

---

Are we not allowed to change our beliefs and our understanding of the world over time? A year ago I was hanging on by a thread to Christianity.

What has changed since then is I continued to pull on that thread, studied the Bible seriously, read numerous books on both sides of the argument, reflected & meditated on it, and eventually deconverted.

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

riflebear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

"I am a follower of Christ who believes in a higher being that created the universe."-Baylorjacket 4/19/22

So what has changed?

---

Are we not allowed to change our beliefs and our understanding of the world over time? A year ago I was hanging on by a thread to Christianity.

What has changed since then is I continued to pull on that thread, studied the Bible seriously, read numerous books on both sides of the argument, reflected & meditated on it, and eventually deconverted.

---

He hasn't deconverted from you. No matter how much you don't want to believe in him.

The amount of witness accounts and seeing disciples go from persecuting/murdering Christians to dying for them should be proof enough for anyone. But it still all comes down to Faith no matter how much proof there is.

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

---

Those looking for excuses do.

---

Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

---

Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

---

Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

---

Were any of them a contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who spoke directly with those disciples who were first hand eyewitnesses, and who wrote letters within a decade of Jesus' death and resurrection which affirmed those things, like the apostle Paul?

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Given that all of the listed scholars are from the past ~2 centuries I think it's safe to say that they did not know Jesus personally.

The earliest of Paul's letters were approximately 20-30 years after Jesus' death, but what I find fascinating about Paul is that he supposedly spent a few weeks with some of the disciples, yet never mentions any of Jesus' miracles or sayings in any of his letters. You'd think raising Lazarus from the dead, or turning water into wine would be something shared at the dinner table.

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Ok, but you're diverting from the point: would Paul's letters be a reliable indicator of the historical Jesus, his life, crucifixion, and resurrection? Why or why not?

I'm purely speculating, but he probably felt he only had the authority to write about HIS encounter with Jesus, and preach based on his knowledge of the Torah and how Jesus was the promised Messiah, rather than rely on hearsay, being that he never witnessed what the disciples did.

But also consider that it is interesting, how he spent a few weeks with the disciples, and then kept on preaching about Jesus, his crucifixion, and resurrection. No doubt that if any of those things weren't true, that would have come up at the dinner table as well.

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Yes, Paul's letters must absolutely be considered when consolidating 1st Century written documentation of Jesus.

We'd first need to choose which letters to use as evidence, as many were potentially not written by Paul (Ephesians, Colossians, the Epistles, etc).

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No scholar doubts the authenticity of Romans, Corinthians, Phillipians, Thessalonians, Philemon. Shall we start there?

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I would avoid blanket statements like that, but sure - seems fair to me.

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So if in the letters you believe are attributed to Paul, since it is clear that Paul believes Jesus existed, that he was crucified and died, and that he rose again, what is the likelihood that a Pharisee and contemporary of Jesus and his disciples, who talked directly with those disciples, would be believing and preaching about a mythical, non-existent figure, and getting beaten, jailed, and eventually killed for doing so, while never wavering?

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JXL said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

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Those looking for excuses do.

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Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

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Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

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Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

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If there was no historical figure of Jesus, why would there have been an early Christian community to invent him?

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BaylorJacket said:

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JXL said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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I don't think any serious person doubt the historical Jesus.

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Those looking for excuses do.

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Just curious - have you ever actually looked into non-Christian sources on the historical Jesus? There are many reputable scholars and historians who doubt the historicity of a literal Yeshua in Judea.

I said above that I personally find his existence more probable than not.

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Yes. I'm blanking but there are four(?) Roman sources - Tacitus and Suetonius are two I believe, but I may be wrong. Literally no scholary person doubts the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

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Here are 10:

• Richard Carrier - a historian and author who has written extensively about the historical Jesus and argues that he may be a mythological figure.
• Robert M. Price - a theologian and biblical scholar who has argued that Jesus may be a mythological figure based on earlier religious myths.
• Earl Doherty - a writer and researcher who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on pagan and Jewish religious ideas.
• Thomas L. Thompson - a biblical scholar who has questioned the historical accuracy of the Old Testament and has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character.
• G.A. Wells - a historian and author who has argued that the Jesus of the New Testament may be a mythological figure.
• Frank Zindler - a linguist and author who has argued that Jesus is a mythological figure based on earlier religious ideas.
• Bruno Bauer - a 19th-century German philosopher and historian who argued that the figure of Jesus was a myth created by early Christians.
• Alvar Ellegard - a historian and author who argued that Jesus may have been a mythological figure created by the early Christian community.
• John M. Allegro - a scholar of ancient languages who argued that the figure of Jesus was a mythological representation of a psychedelic mushroom cult (lol - I think we can agree this guy is wrong)
• Hector Avalos - a biblical scholar who has argued that the historical Jesus may be a fictional character created by the early Christian community.

I can't speak to their credentials, nor do I agree with them, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed scholars/historians who doubt his existence.

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If there was no historical figure of Jesus, why would there have been an early Christian community to invent him?

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If you are actually interested in this, there are some great books on the topic.

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