BaylorJacket said:

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curtpenn said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

---

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.

---

Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

---

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.

---

Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.

---

Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.

---

Why do you believe your life has purpose?

Oldbear83 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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BluesBear said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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BluesBear said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God -

---

"Philosophers can argue the existence of God, but it takes me just a few Google searches to show you the existence of the Devil"

I am convinced of the existence of Satan. If he exists then it stands to reason that God, his great enemy, also is real.

---

As a former Christian, one of the first core beliefs that I deconstructed was the idea of a literal Satan. In my opinion, many of the passages that refer to Satan in the Bible are using metaphorical or symbolic language to describe abstract concepts (for example, in the book of Revelation, Satan is described as a "dragon" with "horns" and "seven heads," which may be a metaphorical description of the corrupt power structures of the Roman Empire)

I definitely agree with you though that evil exists in this world and I have no problem summarizing this collective evil as "Satan".

---

Baylorjacket...let's pray that you find God again in your life. Deny Him means an eternity in Hell...

In fact, I would challenge this to you - - - Test God. Say to God " God, if you are real, then let me see evidence of this today/this week...."

---

Shouldn't my name have been written in the book of life already?

---

But you are openly denying the existence of Christ..How would you then believe that your name is written in the book of life?

---

I was an extremely devoted Christian for about 25+ years, and my practicing denomination held the belief that once you are saved and the Holy Spirit is indwelled inside you, you will always receive eternal salvation. I'm not arguing this is a correct interpretation, but it is a pretty commonly held position in the western church.

---

The doctrine might be better phrased as 'IF saved Always Saved'

And unfortunately, your position as an enemy of Christ parallels the faith walk, such as it was, of one Judas Iscariot.

---

Ah, the classic "you were never actually a Christian" argument.

While you will probably never believe me, I can tell you that I was ALL in on being a follower of Jesus Christ. I accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, was baptized, felt what I believed at the time the Holy Spirit, worshiped Jesus daily, prayed daily, spent time in the word daily, was heavily involved in Church communities, went on and led mission trips both locally and foreign, led worship, and just about anything else you can think of.

---

And Judas spent years following Christ, doubtless believing he was just as much a disciple as Peter or John or any of the others.

Feelings do not define Reality, by the way.

---

If the gospels are genuinely true and Judas first hand witnesses miracles performed by Jesus, we can agree that he certainly made a poor choice stabbing Jesus in the back.

However, we find ourselves in a much different position 2000 years later where we have to look at the evidence presented to us and make a decision in what we believe in. You can call me an apostate, heretic, lunatic agnostic, or something similar (they all are valid) - but I ask you kindly to trust me when I say I was a genuine follower of Jesus for the majority of my life.

---

The problem I see, BaylorJacket, is that we are all of us subjective, and very prone to grade our own work leniently. I'm not calling you names, by the way. If I start doing that I should be reminded by my own conscience of my own hypocrisy and weakness in my spiritual walk.

But I have been pained to see others lose their way, misled by ego, hope of an easy life or money, and of course the lure of social acceptance.

That reminds me. In an earlier post, you mentioned you were looking for 'social justice'. Can you expand on what you mean by that? What is social justice to you, and how does someone create it?

Thanks for your conversation.

---

I would absolutely agree with you that we grade our own work leniently.

Social justice to me is creating a fair and equitable society where everyone has access to opportunities and resources regardless of their race, gender, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics. It involves recognizing and addressing systemic barriers and injustices that may prevent certain groups of people from achieving their full potential and participating fully in society.

Now, creating social justice is obviously quite difficult and subjective. For me, this primarily involves fighting for equality for women as well as those who fall into the LGBTQ+ category. The methodology of trying to create social justice for these people has included me protesting, voting, and having conversations with people on both sides. Based on my personal experiences growing up in a southern evangelical community, I unfortunately witnessed a great deal of discrimination towards these groups. This is purely based on my experiences, as I know a lot of churches do some incredible work fighting for the oppressed and marginalized.

---

Thank you for your response, BaylorJacket. If I understand you correctly, your focus appears to be a political solution. That's fine as far as politics goes, although in my experience "fair" and "equitable" have as many definitions as people voicing their opinion, but I would remind you that Jesus was very carefully apolitical.

'My Kingdom is not of this earth' is what He told Pilate, after all.

I have long considered the great difference between the ideals of Justice, Freedom, Peace, Honor and Mercy.

They are all of them important, yet they are sometimes very difficult to reconcile with each other.

One great value I find in Scripture, is that Christ's teachings are consistent with the rest of Scripture, and this helps me get back on course when I stray from following Him.

Now if only I could manage more than ten minutes as a good and faithful servant before losing my way, but perhaps that is a topic for another thread ...

---

I'd say that is a correct assessment - I agree though, it would be nearly if not fully impossible to make a definition of "equitable/fair" that leaves everyone satisfied.

I do agree and believe that if Christians truly followed Christ's teachings the world would be such a better place. Unfortunately, the western church has been on the wrong side of history recently (slavery/women's rights/lgbtq). However, I am hopeful for the future

D. C. Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

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BluesBear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BluesBear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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BaylorJacket said:

---

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God -

---

"Philosophers can argue the existence of God, but it takes me just a few Google searches to show you the existence of the Devil"

I am convinced of the existence of Satan. If he exists then it stands to reason that God, his great enemy, also is real.

---

As a former Christian, one of the first core beliefs that I deconstructed was the idea of a literal Satan. In my opinion, many of the passages that refer to Satan in the Bible are using metaphorical or symbolic language to describe abstract concepts (for example, in the book of Revelation, Satan is described as a "dragon" with "horns" and "seven heads," which may be a metaphorical description of the corrupt power structures of the Roman Empire)

I definitely agree with you though that evil exists in this world and I have no problem summarizing this collective evil as "Satan".

---

Baylorjacket...let's pray that you find God again in your life. Deny Him means an eternity in Hell...

In fact, I would challenge this to you - - - Test God. Say to God " God, if you are real, then let me see evidence of this today/this week...."

---

Shouldn't my name have been written in the book of life already?

---

But you are openly denying the existence of Christ..How would you then believe that your name is written in the book of life?

---

I was an extremely devoted Christian for about 25+ years, and my practicing denomination held the belief that once you are saved and the Holy Spirit is indwelled inside you, you will always receive eternal salvation. I'm not arguing this is a correct interpretation, but it is a pretty commonly held position in the western church.

---

The doctrine might be better phrased as 'IF saved Always Saved'

And unfortunately, your position as an enemy of Christ parallels the faith walk, such as it was, of one Judas Iscariot.

---

Ah, the classic "you were never actually a Christian" argument.

While you will probably never believe me, I can tell you that I was ALL in on being a follower of Jesus Christ. I accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, was baptized, felt what I believed at the time the Holy Spirit, worshiped Jesus daily, prayed daily, spent time in the word daily, was heavily involved in Church communities, went on and led mission trips both locally and foreign, led worship, and just about anything else you can think of.

---

And Judas spent years following Christ, doubtless believing he was just as much a disciple as Peter or John or any of the others.

Feelings do not define Reality, by the way.

---

If the gospels are genuinely true and Judas first hand witnesses miracles performed by Jesus, we can agree that he certainly made a poor choice stabbing Jesus in the back.

However, we find ourselves in a much different position 2000 years later where we have to look at the evidence presented to us and make a decision in what we believe in. You can call me an apostate, heretic, lunatic agnostic, or something similar (they all are valid) - but I ask you kindly to trust me when I say I was a genuine follower of Jesus for the majority of my life.

---

The problem I see, BaylorJacket, is that we are all of us subjective, and very prone to grade our own work leniently. I'm not calling you names, by the way. If I start doing that I should be reminded by my own conscience of my own hypocrisy and weakness in my spiritual walk.

But I have been pained to see others lose their way, misled by ego, hope of an easy life or money, and of course the lure of social acceptance.

That reminds me. In an earlier post, you mentioned you were looking for 'social justice'. Can you expand on what you mean by that? What is social justice to you, and how does someone create it?

Thanks for your conversation.

---

I would absolutely agree with you that we grade our own work leniently.

Social justice to me is creating a fair and equitable society where everyone has access to opportunities and resources regardless of their race, gender, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics. It involves recognizing and addressing systemic barriers and injustices that may prevent certain groups of people from achieving their full potential and participating fully in society.

Now, creating social justice is obviously quite difficult and subjective. For me, this primarily involves fighting for equality for women as well as those who fall into the LGBTQ+ category. The methodology of trying to create social justice for these people has included me protesting, voting, and having conversations with people on both sides. Based on my personal experiences growing up in a southern evangelical community, I unfortunately witnessed a great deal of discrimination towards these groups. This is purely based on my experiences, as I know a lot of churches do some incredible work fighting for the oppressed and marginalized.

---

Was it the Christ you used to believe in failing or the church members failing?

---

The church failing. I'm not trying to blanket statement all Christians - there are some incredible Christ followers out there who do indeed live out the teachings and messages of Jesus (I am sure you are one yourself), but from my personal experience it is far too common for the western church to either promote discrimination/marginalization or turn a blind eye to it.

---

You are way more optimistic about me than you should be. I try but I fail daily

---

I'm pretty sure God is pleased with you, Lib. I'm pretty sure God allows me to continue for the comedy value.

---

If you do not think that God is pleased with you, your theology is shaky.

---

Not claiming it was anything other than a dream, but ...

I once had a dream where I was walking with God in heaven and I thanked Him for Life, Hope, Forgiveness, His Patience, et cetera.

So I asked God why He was so good to me.

God looked at me, smiled and said,

'I like you, you're funny'.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BluesBear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BluesBear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God -

---

"Philosophers can argue the existence of God, but it takes me just a few Google searches to show you the existence of the Devil"

I am convinced of the existence of Satan. If he exists then it stands to reason that God, his great enemy, also is real.

---

As a former Christian, one of the first core beliefs that I deconstructed was the idea of a literal Satan. In my opinion, many of the passages that refer to Satan in the Bible are using metaphorical or symbolic language to describe abstract concepts (for example, in the book of Revelation, Satan is described as a "dragon" with "horns" and "seven heads," which may be a metaphorical description of the corrupt power structures of the Roman Empire)

I definitely agree with you though that evil exists in this world and I have no problem summarizing this collective evil as "Satan".

---

Baylorjacket...let's pray that you find God again in your life. Deny Him means an eternity in Hell...

In fact, I would challenge this to you - - - Test God. Say to God " God, if you are real, then let me see evidence of this today/this week...."

---

Shouldn't my name have been written in the book of life already?

---

But you are openly denying the existence of Christ..How would you then believe that your name is written in the book of life?

---

I was an extremely devoted Christian for about 25+ years, and my practicing denomination held the belief that once you are saved and the Holy Spirit is indwelled inside you, you will always receive eternal salvation. I'm not arguing this is a correct interpretation, but it is a pretty commonly held position in the western church.

---

The doctrine might be better phrased as 'IF saved Always Saved'

And unfortunately, your position as an enemy of Christ parallels the faith walk, such as it was, of one Judas Iscariot.

---

Ah, the classic "you were never actually a Christian" argument.

While you will probably never believe me, I can tell you that I was ALL in on being a follower of Jesus Christ. I accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, was baptized, felt what I believed at the time the Holy Spirit, worshiped Jesus daily, prayed daily, spent time in the word daily, was heavily involved in Church communities, went on and led mission trips both locally and foreign, led worship, and just about anything else you can think of.

---

And Judas spent years following Christ, doubtless believing he was just as much a disciple as Peter or John or any of the others.

Feelings do not define Reality, by the way.

---

If the gospels are genuinely true and Judas first hand witnesses miracles performed by Jesus, we can agree that he certainly made a poor choice stabbing Jesus in the back.

However, we find ourselves in a much different position 2000 years later where we have to look at the evidence presented to us and make a decision in what we believe in. You can call me an apostate, heretic, lunatic agnostic, or something similar (they all are valid) - but I ask you kindly to trust me when I say I was a genuine follower of Jesus for the majority of my life.

---

The problem I see, BaylorJacket, is that we are all of us subjective, and very prone to grade our own work leniently. I'm not calling you names, by the way. If I start doing that I should be reminded by my own conscience of my own hypocrisy and weakness in my spiritual walk.

But I have been pained to see others lose their way, misled by ego, hope of an easy life or money, and of course the lure of social acceptance.

That reminds me. In an earlier post, you mentioned you were looking for 'social justice'. Can you expand on what you mean by that? What is social justice to you, and how does someone create it?

Thanks for your conversation.

---

I would absolutely agree with you that we grade our own work leniently.

Social justice to me is creating a fair and equitable society where everyone has access to opportunities and resources regardless of their race, gender, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics. It involves recognizing and addressing systemic barriers and injustices that may prevent certain groups of people from achieving their full potential and participating fully in society.

Now, creating social justice is obviously quite difficult and subjective. For me, this primarily involves fighting for equality for women as well as those who fall into the LGBTQ+ category. The methodology of trying to create social justice for these people has included me protesting, voting, and having conversations with people on both sides. Based on my personal experiences growing up in a southern evangelical community, I unfortunately witnessed a great deal of discrimination towards these groups. This is purely based on my experiences, as I know a lot of churches do some incredible work fighting for the oppressed and marginalized.

---

Was it the Christ you used to believe in failing or the church members failing?

---

The church failing. I'm not trying to blanket statement all Christians - there are some incredible Christ followers out there who do indeed live out the teachings and messages of Jesus (I am sure you are one yourself), but from my personal experience it is far too common for the western church to either promote discrimination/marginalization or turn a blind eye to it.

---

There are a lot of failings of the church, that is undeniable. But might I suggest you point the finger at yourself? We've revealed quite a lot about how you think about all this, and it just isn't very honest, objective, and sound. That might be your greater impediment. After all, it has led you away completely from a belief in God. That isn't the church's doing. That's your doing.

---

I think you are correct here, as my mere minuscule intelligence is unable to have an honest and objective conversation with a genius like yourself. We have identified the impediment - thank you for your time.

Wangchung said:

---

I did not read any comments, just the title so forgive me if this repetitive. The existence of the human consciousness and our ability to reflect on the world around us in such a stark contrast to literally every single other known living organism is what leads me to believe in a higher power. If we can have such dominion over nature based on our massive differences in intelligence then why would it be crazy to believe there is some being that is far more developed than us to the point they are a God compared to us? Only hubris leads us to believe we are the penultimate incarnation of thought and ability in existence.

---

Thanks for providing your thoughts! I think this is a fair reasoning to believe in a God

curtpenn said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

---

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.

---

Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

---

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.

---

Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.

---

Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.

---

Why do you believe your life has purpose?

---

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

---

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.

---

Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

---

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.

---

Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.

---

Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.

---

Why do you believe your life has purpose?

---

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.

---

For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

---

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.

---

Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

---

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.

---

Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.

---

Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.

---

Why do you believe your life has purpose?

---

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.

---

For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

---

Mother Teresa, Stalin, Curt Penn, Baylor Jacket, Hitler all in the same fertilizer heap.

Why not just live for now? Why not live for others? Why not end your life? It doesn't really matter if we all end up as fertilizer. No soul. No memory. Just lights out

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

---

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.

---

Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

---

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.

---

Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.

---

Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.

---

Why do you believe your life has purpose?

---

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.

---

For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

---

Hmm, that's interesting - I can't comment on that too much as I haven't dove into the topic with many atheists. I certainly understand though how somehow could find no meaning, especially after leaving religion

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

---

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.

---

Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

---

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.

---

Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.

---

Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.

---

Why do you believe your life has purpose?

---

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.

---

For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

---

Hmm, that's interesting - I can't comment on that too much as I haven't dove into the topic with many atheists. I certainly understand though how somehow could find no meaning, especially after leaving religion

---

If there is no soul, no spirit, no God, we just simply cease to be. If we all go together, there's not even a memory.

Bernie Madoff did it right, at least up until he got caught. Why not just aspire to be a brighter Bernie Madoff?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

---

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.

---

Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

---

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.

---

Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.

---

Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.

---

Why do you believe your life has purpose?

---

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.

---

For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

---

Hmm, that's interesting - I can't comment on that too much as I haven't dove into the topic with many atheists. I certainly understand though how somehow could find no meaning, especially after leaving religion

---

If there is no soul, no spirit, no God, we just simply cease to be. If we all go together, there's not even a memory.

Bernie Madoff did it right, at least up until he got caught. Why not just aspire to be a brighter Bernie Madoff?

---

The idea of not having life after death is strangely peaceful to me. I personally found I have valued and cherished this present life even more so after considering it a possibility.

I was not familiar with Bernie Madoff beforehand, but after a quick google search I think I get the general idea. I have no desire to wrong people or harm people, so I'm not going to start doing it after shedding religion. The philosophical question if "it matters" is a bit pointless to me, as I can tactically feel and express love, and I can feel and understand other's suffering. It's a fun thought experiment, but I find it's not really applicable for me personally when looking another human in the eyes.

I believe the vast majority of humans are good in nature, but unfortunately get f****d over by the circumstances of life. While enjoying this life, I hope to lessen the suffering of others, and experience love & joy with my wife, family, friends, and any who will break bread. Hopefully, after my time is over, the butterfly effect of my actions produces more good than bad fruit.

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BluesBear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BluesBear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God -

---

"Philosophers can argue the existence of God, but it takes me just a few Google searches to show you the existence of the Devil"

I am convinced of the existence of Satan. If he exists then it stands to reason that God, his great enemy, also is real.

---

As a former Christian, one of the first core beliefs that I deconstructed was the idea of a literal Satan. In my opinion, many of the passages that refer to Satan in the Bible are using metaphorical or symbolic language to describe abstract concepts (for example, in the book of Revelation, Satan is described as a "dragon" with "horns" and "seven heads," which may be a metaphorical description of the corrupt power structures of the Roman Empire)

I definitely agree with you though that evil exists in this world and I have no problem summarizing this collective evil as "Satan".

---

Baylorjacket...let's pray that you find God again in your life. Deny Him means an eternity in Hell...

In fact, I would challenge this to you - - - Test God. Say to God " God, if you are real, then let me see evidence of this today/this week...."

---

Shouldn't my name have been written in the book of life already?

---

But you are openly denying the existence of Christ..How would you then believe that your name is written in the book of life?

---

I was an extremely devoted Christian for about 25+ years, and my practicing denomination held the belief that once you are saved and the Holy Spirit is indwelled inside you, you will always receive eternal salvation. I'm not arguing this is a correct interpretation, but it is a pretty commonly held position in the western church.

---

The doctrine might be better phrased as 'IF saved Always Saved'

And unfortunately, your position as an enemy of Christ parallels the faith walk, such as it was, of one Judas Iscariot.

---

Ah, the classic "you were never actually a Christian" argument.

While you will probably never believe me, I can tell you that I was ALL in on being a follower of Jesus Christ. I accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, was baptized, felt what I believed at the time the Holy Spirit, worshiped Jesus daily, prayed daily, spent time in the word daily, was heavily involved in Church communities, went on and led mission trips both locally and foreign, led worship, and just about anything else you can think of.

---

And Judas spent years following Christ, doubtless believing he was just as much a disciple as Peter or John or any of the others.

Feelings do not define Reality, by the way.

---

If the gospels are genuinely true and Judas first hand witnesses miracles performed by Jesus, we can agree that he certainly made a poor choice stabbing Jesus in the back.

However, we find ourselves in a much different position 2000 years later where we have to look at the evidence presented to us and make a decision in what we believe in. You can call me an apostate, heretic, lunatic agnostic, or something similar (they all are valid) - but I ask you kindly to trust me when I say I was a genuine follower of Jesus for the majority of my life.

---

The problem I see, BaylorJacket, is that we are all of us subjective, and very prone to grade our own work leniently. I'm not calling you names, by the way. If I start doing that I should be reminded by my own conscience of my own hypocrisy and weakness in my spiritual walk.

But I have been pained to see others lose their way, misled by ego, hope of an easy life or money, and of course the lure of social acceptance.

That reminds me. In an earlier post, you mentioned you were looking for 'social justice'. Can you expand on what you mean by that? What is social justice to you, and how does someone create it?

Thanks for your conversation.

---

I would absolutely agree with you that we grade our own work leniently.

Social justice to me is creating a fair and equitable society where everyone has access to opportunities and resources regardless of their race, gender, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics. It involves recognizing and addressing systemic barriers and injustices that may prevent certain groups of people from achieving their full potential and participating fully in society.

Now, creating social justice is obviously quite difficult and subjective. For me, this primarily involves fighting for equality for women as well as those who fall into the LGBTQ+ category. The methodology of trying to create social justice for these people has included me protesting, voting, and having conversations with people on both sides. Based on my personal experiences growing up in a southern evangelical community, I unfortunately witnessed a great deal of discrimination towards these groups. This is purely based on my experiences, as I know a lot of churches do some incredible work fighting for the oppressed and marginalized.

---

Was it the Christ you used to believe in failing or the church members failing?

---

The church failing. I'm not trying to blanket statement all Christians - there are some incredible Christ followers out there who do indeed live out the teachings and messages of Jesus (I am sure you are one yourself), but from my personal experience it is far too common for the western church to either promote discrimination/marginalization or turn a blind eye to it.

---

There are a lot of failings of the church, that is undeniable. But might I suggest you point the finger at yourself? We've revealed quite a lot about how you think about all this, and it just isn't very honest, objective, and sound. That might be your greater impediment. After all, it has led you away completely from a belief in God. That isn't the church's doing. That's your doing.

---

I think you are correct here, as my mere minuscule intelligence is unable to have an honest and objective conversation with a genius like yourself. We have identified the impediment - thank you for your time.

---

You're very welcome for my time. It was well worth the effort bringing a skeptic into the light to be exposed.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BluesBear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BluesBear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God -

---

"Philosophers can argue the existence of God, but it takes me just a few Google searches to show you the existence of the Devil"

I am convinced of the existence of Satan. If he exists then it stands to reason that God, his great enemy, also is real.

---

As a former Christian, one of the first core beliefs that I deconstructed was the idea of a literal Satan. In my opinion, many of the passages that refer to Satan in the Bible are using metaphorical or symbolic language to describe abstract concepts (for example, in the book of Revelation, Satan is described as a "dragon" with "horns" and "seven heads," which may be a metaphorical description of the corrupt power structures of the Roman Empire)

I definitely agree with you though that evil exists in this world and I have no problem summarizing this collective evil as "Satan".

---

Baylorjacket...let's pray that you find God again in your life. Deny Him means an eternity in Hell...

In fact, I would challenge this to you - - - Test God. Say to God " God, if you are real, then let me see evidence of this today/this week...."

---

Shouldn't my name have been written in the book of life already?

---

But you are openly denying the existence of Christ..How would you then believe that your name is written in the book of life?

---

I was an extremely devoted Christian for about 25+ years, and my practicing denomination held the belief that once you are saved and the Holy Spirit is indwelled inside you, you will always receive eternal salvation. I'm not arguing this is a correct interpretation, but it is a pretty commonly held position in the western church.

---

The doctrine might be better phrased as 'IF saved Always Saved'

And unfortunately, your position as an enemy of Christ parallels the faith walk, such as it was, of one Judas Iscariot.

---

Ah, the classic "you were never actually a Christian" argument.

While you will probably never believe me, I can tell you that I was ALL in on being a follower of Jesus Christ. I accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, was baptized, felt what I believed at the time the Holy Spirit, worshiped Jesus daily, prayed daily, spent time in the word daily, was heavily involved in Church communities, went on and led mission trips both locally and foreign, led worship, and just about anything else you can think of.

---

And Judas spent years following Christ, doubtless believing he was just as much a disciple as Peter or John or any of the others.

Feelings do not define Reality, by the way.

---

If the gospels are genuinely true and Judas first hand witnesses miracles performed by Jesus, we can agree that he certainly made a poor choice stabbing Jesus in the back.

However, we find ourselves in a much different position 2000 years later where we have to look at the evidence presented to us and make a decision in what we believe in. You can call me an apostate, heretic, lunatic agnostic, or something similar (they all are valid) - but I ask you kindly to trust me when I say I was a genuine follower of Jesus for the majority of my life.

---

The problem I see, BaylorJacket, is that we are all of us subjective, and very prone to grade our own work leniently. I'm not calling you names, by the way. If I start doing that I should be reminded by my own conscience of my own hypocrisy and weakness in my spiritual walk.

But I have been pained to see others lose their way, misled by ego, hope of an easy life or money, and of course the lure of social acceptance.

That reminds me. In an earlier post, you mentioned you were looking for 'social justice'. Can you expand on what you mean by that? What is social justice to you, and how does someone create it?

Thanks for your conversation.

---

I would absolutely agree with you that we grade our own work leniently.

Social justice to me is creating a fair and equitable society where everyone has access to opportunities and resources regardless of their race, gender, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics. It involves recognizing and addressing systemic barriers and injustices that may prevent certain groups of people from achieving their full potential and participating fully in society.

Now, creating social justice is obviously quite difficult and subjective. For me, this primarily involves fighting for equality for women as well as those who fall into the LGBTQ+ category. The methodology of trying to create social justice for these people has included me protesting, voting, and having conversations with people on both sides. Based on my personal experiences growing up in a southern evangelical community, I unfortunately witnessed a great deal of discrimination towards these groups. This is purely based on my experiences, as I know a lot of churches do some incredible work fighting for the oppressed and marginalized.

---

Was it the Christ you used to believe in failing or the church members failing?

---

The church failing. I'm not trying to blanket statement all Christians - there are some incredible Christ followers out there who do indeed live out the teachings and messages of Jesus (I am sure you are one yourself), but from my personal experience it is far too common for the western church to either promote discrimination/marginalization or turn a blind eye to it.

---

There are a lot of failings of the church, that is undeniable. But might I suggest you point the finger at yourself? We've revealed quite a lot about how you think about all this, and it just isn't very honest, objective, and sound. That might be your greater impediment. After all, it has led you away completely from a belief in God. That isn't the church's doing. That's your doing.

---

I think you are correct here, as my mere minuscule intelligence is unable to have an honest and objective conversation with a genius like yourself. We have identified the impediment - thank you for your time.

---

You're very welcome for my time. It was well worth the effort bringing a skeptic into the light to be exposed.

---

I derive a sense of solace and reassurance from the fact that I hold a differing opinion from you. Thank you for "bringing me into the light" lol

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

---

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.

---

Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

---

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.

---

Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.

---

Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.

---

Why do you believe your life has purpose?

---

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.

---

For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

---

Hmm, that's interesting - I can't comment on that too much as I haven't dove into the topic with many atheists. I certainly understand though how somehow could find no meaning, especially after leaving religion

---

If there is no soul, no spirit, no God, we just simply cease to be. If we all go together, there's not even a memory.

Bernie Madoff did it right, at least up until he got caught. Why not just aspire to be a brighter Bernie Madoff?

---

The idea of not having life after death is strangely peaceful to me. I personally found I have valued and cherished this present life even more so after considering it a possibility.

I was not familiar with Bernie Madoff beforehand, but after a quick google search I think I get the general idea. I have no desire to wrong people or harm people, so I'm not going to start doing it after shedding religion. The philosophical question if "it matters" is a bit pointless to me, as I can tactically feel and express love, and I can feel and understand other's suffering. It's a fun thought experiment, but I find it's not really applicable for me personally when looking another human in the eyes.

I believe the vast majority of humans are good in nature, but unfortunately get f****d over by the circumstances of life. While enjoying this life, I hope to lessen the suffering of others, and experience love & joy with my wife, family, friends, and any who will break bread. Hopefully, after my time is over, the butterfly effect of my actions produces more good than bad fruit.

---

Why does it matter to you whether or not you produce more good fruit than bad fruit?

BaylorJacket said:

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But you are openly denying the existence of Christ..How would you then believe that your name is written in the book of life?

---

I was an extremely devoted Christian for about 25+ years, and my practicing denomination held the belief that once you are saved and the Holy Spirit is indwelled inside you, you will always receive eternal salvation. I'm not arguing this is a correct interpretation, but it is a pretty commonly held position in the western church.

---

The doctrine might be better phrased as 'IF saved Always Saved'

And unfortunately, your position as an enemy of Christ parallels the faith walk, such as it was, of one Judas Iscariot.

---

Ah, the classic "you were never actually a Christian" argument.

While you will probably never believe me, I can tell you that I was ALL in on being a follower of Jesus Christ. I accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, was baptized, felt what I believed at the time the Holy Spirit, worshiped Jesus daily, prayed daily, spent time in the word daily, was heavily involved in Church communities, went on and led mission trips both locally and foreign, led worship, and just about anything else you can think of.

---

And Judas spent years following Christ, doubtless believing he was just as much a disciple as Peter or John or any of the others.

Feelings do not define Reality, by the way.

---

If the gospels are genuinely true and Judas first hand witnesses miracles performed by Jesus, we can agree that he certainly made a poor choice stabbing Jesus in the back.

However, we find ourselves in a much different position 2000 years later where we have to look at the evidence presented to us and make a decision in what we believe in. You can call me an apostate, heretic, lunatic agnostic, or something similar (they all are valid) - but I ask you kindly to trust me when I say I was a genuine follower of Jesus for the majority of my life.

---

The problem I see, BaylorJacket, is that we are all of us subjective, and very prone to grade our own work leniently. I'm not calling you names, by the way. If I start doing that I should be reminded by my own conscience of my own hypocrisy and weakness in my spiritual walk.

But I have been pained to see others lose their way, misled by ego, hope of an easy life or money, and of course the lure of social acceptance.

That reminds me. In an earlier post, you mentioned you were looking for 'social justice'. Can you expand on what you mean by that? What is social justice to you, and how does someone create it?

Thanks for your conversation.

---

I would absolutely agree with you that we grade our own work leniently.

Social justice to me is creating a fair and equitable society where everyone has access to opportunities and resources regardless of their race, gender, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics. It involves recognizing and addressing systemic barriers and injustices that may prevent certain groups of people from achieving their full potential and participating fully in society.

Now, creating social justice is obviously quite difficult and subjective. For me, this primarily involves fighting for equality for women as well as those who fall into the LGBTQ+ category. The methodology of trying to create social justice for these people has included me protesting, voting, and having conversations with people on both sides. Based on my personal experiences growing up in a southern evangelical community, I unfortunately witnessed a great deal of discrimination towards these groups. This is purely based on my experiences, as I know a lot of churches do some incredible work fighting for the oppressed and marginalized.

---

Was it the Christ you used to believe in failing or the church members failing?

---

The church failing. I'm not trying to blanket statement all Christians - there are some incredible Christ followers out there who do indeed live out the teachings and messages of Jesus (I am sure you are one yourself), but from my personal experience it is far too common for the western church to either promote discrimination/marginalization or turn a blind eye to it.

---

There are a lot of failings of the church, that is undeniable. But might I suggest you point the finger at yourself? We've revealed quite a lot about how you think about all this, and it just isn't very honest, objective, and sound. That might be your greater impediment. After all, it has led you away completely from a belief in God. That isn't the church's doing. That's your doing.

---

I think you are correct here, as my mere minuscule intelligence is unable to have an honest and objective conversation with a genius like yourself. We have identified the impediment - thank you for your time.

---

You're very welcome for my time. It was well worth the effort bringing a skeptic into the light to be exposed.

---

I derive a sense of solace and reassurance from the fact that I hold a differing opinion from you. Thank you for "bringing me into the light" lol

---

You find solace and reassurance in holding to something that's been shown to be a complete failure of logic? You fail to realize that it's not ME that you're differing with, it's intellectually honesty and common sense you are departing from.

Arguing that Jesus could be a myth because ONE of TWO references to Jesus by Josephus could be a "forgery" (a failure of logic) and then trying to explain away Josephus' second reference to Jesus by saying that "Jesus, the so-called Christ" was NOT talking about Jesus CHRIST -- that is about the most blatant display of intellectual dishonesty that I've witnessed on these forums, on par with Waco1947, quash, and TXScientist. Truthfully, it makes me sad. Sad, that people will go to such lengths just so they can justify the beliefs that they WANT, instead of going honestly where the truth takes them. It isn't really that hard to be objective and honest, and say to yourself, "Yeah, Josephus is likely talking about Jesus, the Christ figure behind the early Christian movement" and go from there. Why anyone would rather lie to themself by resorting to a ridiculously faulty ad hoc explanation (even when they know it to be so) in order to explain away the logically obvious, is very puzzling to me. But such is the nature of the hard of heart.

BaylorJacket said:

---

But you are openly denying the existence of Christ..How would you then believe that your name is written in the book of life?

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I was an extremely devoted Christian for about 25+ years, and my practicing denomination held the belief that once you are saved and the Holy Spirit is indwelled inside you, you will always receive eternal salvation. I'm not arguing this is a correct interpretation, but it is a pretty commonly held position in the western church.

---

The doctrine might be better phrased as 'IF saved Always Saved'

And unfortunately, your position as an enemy of Christ parallels the faith walk, such as it was, of one Judas Iscariot.

---

Ah, the classic "you were never actually a Christian" argument.

While you will probably never believe me, I can tell you that I was ALL in on being a follower of Jesus Christ. I accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, was baptized, felt what I believed at the time the Holy Spirit, worshiped Jesus daily, prayed daily, spent time in the word daily, was heavily involved in Church communities, went on and led mission trips both locally and foreign, led worship, and just about anything else you can think of.

---

And Judas spent years following Christ, doubtless believing he was just as much a disciple as Peter or John or any of the others.

Feelings do not define Reality, by the way.

---

If the gospels are genuinely true and Judas first hand witnesses miracles performed by Jesus, we can agree that he certainly made a poor choice stabbing Jesus in the back.

However, we find ourselves in a much different position 2000 years later where we have to look at the evidence presented to us and make a decision in what we believe in. You can call me an apostate, heretic, lunatic agnostic, or something similar (they all are valid) - but I ask you kindly to trust me when I say I was a genuine follower of Jesus for the majority of my life.

---

The problem I see, BaylorJacket, is that we are all of us subjective, and very prone to grade our own work leniently. I'm not calling you names, by the way. If I start doing that I should be reminded by my own conscience of my own hypocrisy and weakness in my spiritual walk.

But I have been pained to see others lose their way, misled by ego, hope of an easy life or money, and of course the lure of social acceptance.

That reminds me. In an earlier post, you mentioned you were looking for 'social justice'. Can you expand on what you mean by that? What is social justice to you, and how does someone create it?

Thanks for your conversation.

---

I would absolutely agree with you that we grade our own work leniently.

Social justice to me is creating a fair and equitable society where everyone has access to opportunities and resources regardless of their race, gender, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics. It involves recognizing and addressing systemic barriers and injustices that may prevent certain groups of people from achieving their full potential and participating fully in society.

Now, creating social justice is obviously quite difficult and subjective. For me, this primarily involves fighting for equality for women as well as those who fall into the LGBTQ+ category. The methodology of trying to create social justice for these people has included me protesting, voting, and having conversations with people on both sides. Based on my personal experiences growing up in a southern evangelical community, I unfortunately witnessed a great deal of discrimination towards these groups. This is purely based on my experiences, as I know a lot of churches do some incredible work fighting for the oppressed and marginalized.

---

Was it the Christ you used to believe in failing or the church members failing?

---

The church failing. I'm not trying to blanket statement all Christians - there are some incredible Christ followers out there who do indeed live out the teachings and messages of Jesus (I am sure you are one yourself), but from my personal experience it is far too common for the western church to either promote discrimination/marginalization or turn a blind eye to it.

---

There are a lot of failings of the church, that is undeniable. But might I suggest you point the finger at yourself? We've revealed quite a lot about how you think about all this, and it just isn't very honest, objective, and sound. That might be your greater impediment. After all, it has led you away completely from a belief in God. That isn't the church's doing. That's your doing.

---

I think you are correct here, as my mere minuscule intelligence is unable to have an honest and objective conversation with a genius like yourself. We have identified the impediment - thank you for your time.

---

You're very welcome for my time. It was well worth the effort bringing a skeptic into the light to be exposed.

---

I derive a sense of solace and reassurance from the fact that I hold a differing opinion from you.

---

Oh, and one more thing - I also am very glad that I hold a different opinion from you.

BaylorJacket said:

---

I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

Read Dr Steven Barr. He is a Physicist and a devout Catholic.

I have really liked his books and his views, they make sense to me. He is able to put things into terms much better than I can.

I agree with the view that science cannot prove God, science studies and reveals the material world. God is not of the material world and therefore beyond scientific proof. We can affirm God's existence, but it is a faith or philosophical argument, not science.


Please keep in mind that this is Catholic based, as I am Catholic, I am not trying to start the reformation all over again! In this case, we believers are all on the same side. There are enough people trying to tear faith down that we don't need to go after each other.

https://www.americamagazine.org/content/all-things/faith-and-science-15-questions-dr-stephen-barr

https://pintswithaquinas.com/god-the-big-bang-and-the-multiverse-with-dr-stephen-barr/

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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But you are openly denying the existence of Christ..How would you then believe that your name is written in the book of life?

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I was an extremely devoted Christian for about 25+ years, and my practicing denomination held the belief that once you are saved and the Holy Spirit is indwelled inside you, you will always receive eternal salvation. I'm not arguing this is a correct interpretation, but it is a pretty commonly held position in the western church.

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The doctrine might be better phrased as 'IF saved Always Saved'

And unfortunately, your position as an enemy of Christ parallels the faith walk, such as it was, of one Judas Iscariot.

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Ah, the classic "you were never actually a Christian" argument.

While you will probably never believe me, I can tell you that I was ALL in on being a follower of Jesus Christ. I accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, was baptized, felt what I believed at the time the Holy Spirit, worshiped Jesus daily, prayed daily, spent time in the word daily, was heavily involved in Church communities, went on and led mission trips both locally and foreign, led worship, and just about anything else you can think of.

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And Judas spent years following Christ, doubtless believing he was just as much a disciple as Peter or John or any of the others.

Feelings do not define Reality, by the way.

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If the gospels are genuinely true and Judas first hand witnesses miracles performed by Jesus, we can agree that he certainly made a poor choice stabbing Jesus in the back.

However, we find ourselves in a much different position 2000 years later where we have to look at the evidence presented to us and make a decision in what we believe in. You can call me an apostate, heretic, lunatic agnostic, or something similar (they all are valid) - but I ask you kindly to trust me when I say I was a genuine follower of Jesus for the majority of my life.

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The problem I see, BaylorJacket, is that we are all of us subjective, and very prone to grade our own work leniently. I'm not calling you names, by the way. If I start doing that I should be reminded by my own conscience of my own hypocrisy and weakness in my spiritual walk.

But I have been pained to see others lose their way, misled by ego, hope of an easy life or money, and of course the lure of social acceptance.

That reminds me. In an earlier post, you mentioned you were looking for 'social justice'. Can you expand on what you mean by that? What is social justice to you, and how does someone create it?

Thanks for your conversation.

---

I would absolutely agree with you that we grade our own work leniently.

Social justice to me is creating a fair and equitable society where everyone has access to opportunities and resources regardless of their race, gender, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics. It involves recognizing and addressing systemic barriers and injustices that may prevent certain groups of people from achieving their full potential and participating fully in society.

Now, creating social justice is obviously quite difficult and subjective. For me, this primarily involves fighting for equality for women as well as those who fall into the LGBTQ+ category. The methodology of trying to create social justice for these people has included me protesting, voting, and having conversations with people on both sides. Based on my personal experiences growing up in a southern evangelical community, I unfortunately witnessed a great deal of discrimination towards these groups. This is purely based on my experiences, as I know a lot of churches do some incredible work fighting for the oppressed and marginalized.

---

Was it the Christ you used to believe in failing or the church members failing?

---

The church failing. I'm not trying to blanket statement all Christians - there are some incredible Christ followers out there who do indeed live out the teachings and messages of Jesus (I am sure you are one yourself), but from my personal experience it is far too common for the western church to either promote discrimination/marginalization or turn a blind eye to it.

---

There are a lot of failings of the church, that is undeniable. But might I suggest you point the finger at yourself? We've revealed quite a lot about how you think about all this, and it just isn't very honest, objective, and sound. That might be your greater impediment. After all, it has led you away completely from a belief in God. That isn't the church's doing. That's your doing.

---

I think you are correct here, as my mere minuscule intelligence is unable to have an honest and objective conversation with a genius like yourself. We have identified the impediment - thank you for your time.

---

You're very welcome for my time. It was well worth the effort bringing a skeptic into the light to be exposed.

---

I derive a sense of solace and reassurance from the fact that I hold a differing opinion from you. Thank you for "bringing me into the light" lol

---

You find solace and reassurance in holding to something that's been shown to be a complete failure of logic? You fail to realize that it's not ME that you're differing with, it's intellectually honesty and common sense you are departing from.

Arguing that Jesus could be a myth because ONE of TWO references to Jesus by Josephus could be a "forgery" (a failure of logic) and then trying to explain away Josephus' second reference to Jesus by saying that "Jesus, the so-called Christ" was NOT talking about Jesus CHRIST -- that is about the most blatant display of intellectual dishonesty that I've witnessed on these forums, on par with Waco1947, quash, and TXScientist. Truthfully, it makes me sad. Sad, that people will go to such lengths just so they can justify the beliefs that they WANT, instead of going honestly where the truth takes them. It isn't really that hard to be objective and honest, and say to yourself, "Yeah, Josephus is likely talking about Jesus, the Christ figure behind the early Christian movement" and go from there. Why anyone would rather lie to themself by resorting to a ridiculously faulty ad hoc explanation (even when they know it to be so) in order to explain away the logically obvious, is very puzzling to me. But such is the nature of the hard of heart.

---

There are ancient text historians who study Josephus and have concluded that the "so-called Christ" bit is an interpolation. Not as an act of forgery, but a scribe simply taking notes. There are also many who believe it's authentic.

Regardless, it doesn't matter. From the beginning of this conversation, you have not understood my position nor do you seem interested in it. I'm sure I haven't done a great job explaining it, but I am not expressing "this is a forgery therefore Jesus didn't exist". Absolutely, Josephus might have actually penned the words himself and believed Jesus existed - this is a very real possibility. However, I also see possibility in the alternative as well.

As a recap from the beginning of our conversation, I believe that the most likely explanation for the current evidence we have is that Jesus existed.

curtpenn said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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curtpenn said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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curtpenn said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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curtpenn said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

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Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.

---

Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

---

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.

---

Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.

---

Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.

---

Why do you believe your life has purpose?

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I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.

---

For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

---

Hmm, that's interesting - I can't comment on that too much as I haven't dove into the topic with many atheists. I certainly understand though how somehow could find no meaning, especially after leaving religion

---

If there is no soul, no spirit, no God, we just simply cease to be. If we all go together, there's not even a memory.

Bernie Madoff did it right, at least up until he got caught. Why not just aspire to be a brighter Bernie Madoff?

---

The idea of not having life after death is strangely peaceful to me. I personally found I have valued and cherished this present life even more so after considering it a possibility.

I was not familiar with Bernie Madoff beforehand, but after a quick google search I think I get the general idea. I have no desire to wrong people or harm people, so I'm not going to start doing it after shedding religion. The philosophical question if "it matters" is a bit pointless to me, as I can tactically feel and express love, and I can feel and understand other's suffering. It's a fun thought experiment, but I find it's not really applicable for me personally when looking another human in the eyes.

I believe the vast majority of humans are good in nature, but unfortunately get f****d over by the circumstances of life. While enjoying this life, I hope to lessen the suffering of others, and experience love & joy with my wife, family, friends, and any who will break bread. Hopefully, after my time is over, the butterfly effect of my actions produces more good than bad fruit.

---

Why does it matter to you whether or not you produce more good fruit than bad fruit?

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If we can equate good fruit with less suffering/more love & joy, then I am absolutely hopeful that my actions have a positive effect and lead to these more over the alternative. While I can't define universal meaning and there may not even be any, the human experience is very much real.

RMF5630 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

Read Dr Steven Barr. He is a Physicist and a devout Catholic.

I have really liked his books and his views, they make sense to me. He is able to put things into terms much better than I can.

I agree with the view that science cannot prove God, science studies and reveals the material world. God is not of the material world and therefore beyond scientific proof. We can affirm God's existence, but it is a faith or philosophical argument, not science.


Please keep in mind that this is Catholic based, as I am Catholic, I am not trying to start the reformation all over again! In this case, we believers are all on the same side. There are enough people trying to tear faith down that we don't need to go after each other.

https://www.americamagazine.org/content/all-things/faith-and-science-15-questions-dr-stephen-barr

https://pintswithaquinas.com/god-the-big-bang-and-the-multiverse-with-dr-stephen-barr/

---

Thank you so much for providing your thoughts! I actually listen to Pints with Aquinas from time to time, so I'll have to check out his conversation with Dr. Barr.

Absolutely will be checking out his material. I see that he has a few books published, are there any in particular you recommend?

RMF5630 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

---

I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

Read Dr Steven Barr. He is a Physicist and a devout Catholic.

I have really liked his books and his views, they make sense to me. He is able to put things into terms much better than I can.

I agree with the view that science cannot prove God, science studies and reveals the material world. God is not of the material world and therefore beyond scientific proof. We can affirm God's existence, but it is a faith or philosophical argument, not science.


Please keep in mind that this is Catholic based, as I am Catholic, I am not trying to start the reformation all over again! In this case, we believers are all on the same side. There are enough people trying to tear faith down that we don't need to go after each other.

https://www.americamagazine.org/content/all-things/faith-and-science-15-questions-dr-stephen-barr

https://pintswithaquinas.com/god-the-big-bang-and-the-multiverse-with-dr-stephen-barr/

---

You are correct science will not prove there is a God or not, it is a matter of faith.
Science, as it has always done, has shown us all ancient religions are indeed a superstition and or myths
Science can disprove many things that a religous text claims, like the fall of man. No fall of man no sin no need for a Savior. It is that simple. We know exaclty who mankind and how we got there today as the last surviving humans from a long line of mammal ancestors. Check your DNA you.most likely have Neanderthal in you. Jesus most likely existed but his story as the son pf god lile so many others before him is a religious myth built by fear and ignorance and a hope for a better future.
Science has been trying very hard for decades to prove the existence.of a soul or after life and has failed. What it did find is people who faint can have the exact same experince as some one who almost died but was revived. Science can also induce a near death experience. Just remember human witness and testimony is the worst kind of evidence there is. It is remarkably unreliable.
Simply live your life enjoy every moment love as.much as you can and be grateful.
Be glad we live in such an age of umderdestanding that we who we are how we got here and how amazing the universe we live in is.

"Science, as it has always done, has shown us all ancient religions are indeed a superstition and or myths"

No, that is a false statement. There are certainly individuals who try to use Science as a club to beat down whatever they do not like.

But Science cannot 'disprove' matters of faith, anymore than an Engineer can 'prove' or 'disprove' whether your significant other loves you.

joseywales said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

Read Dr Steven Barr. He is a Physicist and a devout Catholic.

I have really liked his books and his views, they make sense to me. He is able to put things into terms much better than I can.

I agree with the view that science cannot prove God, science studies and reveals the material world. God is not of the material world and therefore beyond scientific proof. We can affirm God's existence, but it is a faith or philosophical argument, not science.


Please keep in mind that this is Catholic based, as I am Catholic, I am not trying to start the reformation all over again! In this case, we believers are all on the same side. There are enough people trying to tear faith down that we don't need to go after each other.

https://www.americamagazine.org/content/all-things/faith-and-science-15-questions-dr-stephen-barr

https://pintswithaquinas.com/god-the-big-bang-and-the-multiverse-with-dr-stephen-barr/

---

Simply live your life enjoy every moment love as.much as you can and be grateful. Be glad we live in such an age of umderdestanding that we who we are how we got here and how amazing the universe we live in is.

---

Well said here. We truly live in incredible times of rapid scientific understanding of this strange universe we find ourselves in

D. C. Bear said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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curtpenn said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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curtpenn said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

curtpenn said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

"I believe Jesus Christ was absolutely a real man, it seems silly to deem otherwise with a mountain of evidence." Baylorjacket 4/19/22

---

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than to parse through my old posts from nearly a year ago on a football forum?

Yes - about a year ago I would have said that it is silly to not concretely believe that a historical Jesus existed. However, like I have already said, I have read many books on the topic, engaged and reflected on the subject, and this confidence has dropped over the past year.

You continuing to post my old quotes is not going to change anything.

---

Has that made your life better? Has losing faith improved any aspect of your life?

---

Thanks for the question Doc. In many ways, yes, aspects of my life has improved after losing faith. My mental and physical health have both improved as I've focused more on the present than eternity. My heart for social justice and ability to love others has also increased.

But don't get me wrong, it hasn't been a walk in the park. Losing my church community was very difficult, and as my close family are all believers, this has affected my relationship with them some as well. There have also been periods of loneliness that I have had to overcome.

---

Interesting you have found it easier to love others and seek social justice. When I'm in the valley, I tend toward the opposite and lean into nihilism. If all species are headed to oblivion and are the products of mere time and chance, then there is no inherent value in the cosmos or anything in it. Will to power is all.

---

Perhaps it is my disposition that leads me away from nihilism. I went down that philosophical rabbit trail for some time, but at the end of the day my optimistic core leads me to find purpose in the face of cynicism.

---

Why do you believe your life has purpose?

---

I'm still pursing the answer to this very question, but in that pursuit I find meaning.

---

For the atheist/materialist, I believe the inescapable conclusion is that life has no inherent meaning. Most people are not able to embrace the brutal logic that life is meaningless even as they reject a Creator. That you feel compelled to find meaning is interesting.

---

Hmm, that's interesting - I can't comment on that too much as I haven't dove into the topic with many atheists. I certainly understand though how somehow could find no meaning, especially after leaving religion

---

If there is no soul, no spirit, no God, we just simply cease to be. If we all go together, there's not even a memory.

Bernie Madoff did it right, at least up until he got caught. Why not just aspire to be a brighter Bernie Madoff?

---

The idea of not having life after death is strangely peaceful to me. I personally found I have valued and cherished this present life even more so after considering it a possibility.

I was not familiar with Bernie Madoff beforehand, but after a quick google search I think I get the general idea. I have no desire to wrong people or harm people, so I'm not going to start doing it after shedding religion. The philosophical question if "it matters" is a bit pointless to me, as I can tactically feel and express love, and I can feel and understand other's suffering. It's a fun thought experiment, but I find it's not really applicable for me personally when looking another human in the eyes.

I believe the vast majority of humans are good in nature, but unfortunately get f****d over by the circumstances of life. While enjoying this life, I hope to lessen the suffering of others, and experience love & joy with my wife, family, friends, and any who will break bread. Hopefully, after my time is over, the butterfly effect of my actions produces more good than bad fruit.

---

That's nice, but the question of whether "it matters" is not pointless to any of us. If we are living in a world created by a loving God who places a high value on people, your experience-based conclusion is congruent with a deeper reality and can justifiably form the basis for organizing society. If we are living in a Godless universe where humans value is determined only by their own individual feelings, then it is fine for you or decide you will lessen the suffering of others and experience joy with your family etc., but we would have no rational argument against the person who looks another human in the eyes and decides to eat him. It really is that stark.

---

I respectfully disagree with this. Regardless of one's belief system, it is evident that humans are social creatures who depend on each other for survival and wellbeing. We have evolved to feel empathy and connection with others, and this has enabled us to form communities, share resources, and create cultures. In every culture, there are norms and values that guide behavior, and these are based on shared understandings of what is right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust.

It is true that some people may choose to act in ways that are harmful to others, and this can happen in any society, regardless of its religious or moral foundations. However, it is also true that societies that prioritize empathy and compassion are more likely to create conditions of safety, prosperity, and dignity for their members.

Therefore, it is not necessary to appeal to a divine authority to justify ethical behavior or the organization of society. Rather, we can recognize the value of empathy and compassion as fundamental human traits that allow us to create a better world for ourselves and each other.

joseywales said:

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RMF5630 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

Read Dr Steven Barr. He is a Physicist and a devout Catholic.

I have really liked his books and his views, they make sense to me. He is able to put things into terms much better than I can.

I agree with the view that science cannot prove God, science studies and reveals the material world. God is not of the material world and therefore beyond scientific proof. We can affirm God's existence, but it is a faith or philosophical argument, not science.


Please keep in mind that this is Catholic based, as I am Catholic, I am not trying to start the reformation all over again! In this case, we believers are all on the same side. There are enough people trying to tear faith down that we don't need to go after each other.

https://www.americamagazine.org/content/all-things/faith-and-science-15-questions-dr-stephen-barr

https://pintswithaquinas.com/god-the-big-bang-and-the-multiverse-with-dr-stephen-barr/

---

You are correct science will not prove there is a God or not, it is a matter of faith.
Science, as it has always done, has shown us all ancient religions are indeed a superstition and or myths
Science can disprove many things that a religous text claims, like the fall of man. No fall of man no sin no need for a Savior. It is that simple. We know exaclty who mankind and how we got there today as the last surviving humans from a long line of mammal ancestors. Check your DNA you.most likely have Neanderthal in you. Jesus most likely existed but his story as the son pf god lile so many others before him is a religious myth built by fear and ignorance and a hope for a better future.
Science has been trying very hard for decades to prove the existence.of a soul or after life and has failed. What it did find is people who faint can have the exact same experince as some one who almost died but was revived. Science can also induce a near death experience. Just remember human witness and testimony is the worst kind of evidence there is. It is remarkably unreliable.
Simply live your life enjoy every moment love as.much as you can and be grateful.
Be glad we live in such an age of umderdestanding that we who we are how we got here and how amazing the universe we live in is.

---

You claim that there is "no sin" but that is a claim that is dependent on proving that there is no God because sin is, by definition, an offense against God. You also claim that science will not prove whether then is a God or not. If science cannot prove there is "no God," then science cannot prove that there is "no sin," so your claim that "science" has proven that there is "no sin" is logically impossible based on your own claim that science will not prove whether there is a God or not.

I don't find a conflict between science and religion. But, I am neither a literalist or a materialist. I view Science as God's way for us to discover the natural world. Has nothing to do with spirituality or faith.

Was the Earth created in 6 days? I read that and think the author is conveying a point that it took time, not the number of hours or whether it was Standard Time or Day Light Savings Time.

Did 3 loaves and 2 fishes feed a multitude? Or, was Jesus's message so well received that people put aside their hunger to listen?

I don't see how those things change belief.Jesus used parables to teach. The Bible is a moral book, it uses parables and stories to teach a message. The historical fact of every part does not have to be dead on...

RMF5630 said:

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I don't find a conflict between science and religion. But, I am neither a literalist or a materialist. I view Science as God's way for us to discover the natural world. Has nothing to do with spirituality or faith.

Was the Earth created in 6 days? I read that and think the author is conveying a point that it took time, not the number of hours or whether it was Standard Time or Day Light Savings Time.

Did 3 loaves and 2 fishes feed a multitude? Or, was Jesus's message so well received that people put aside their hunger to listen?

I don't see how those things change belief.Jesus used parables to teach. The Bible is a moral book, it uses parables and stories to teach a message. The historical fact of every part does not have to be dead on...

---

I think this is a fair way to approach the bible - thank you for your thoughts.

I am paraphrasing, but in the past I heard an Orthodox Christian explain the bible as "a progressive collection of texts of humanity growing and learning as they pursue the same God over time".

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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26 years ago, my daughter was born 10 weeks early and weighed 2.6 lbs. She is perfectly healthy. Next week she will give birth to her own baby.

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My once 2.6 lb. daughter gave birth yesterday to a 8 lb. 4 oz. baby boy! Two gifts from God.

Life is good.

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Congratulations to you and your family!!l

BaylorJacket said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

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Read Dr Steven Barr. He is a Physicist and a devout Catholic.

I have really liked his books and his views, they make sense to me. He is able to put things into terms much better than I can.

I agree with the view that science cannot prove God, science studies and reveals the material world. God is not of the material world and therefore beyond scientific proof. We can affirm God's existence, but it is a faith or philosophical argument, not science.


Please keep in mind that this is Catholic based, as I am Catholic, I am not trying to start the reformation all over again! In this case, we believers are all on the same side. There are enough people trying to tear faith down that we don't need to go after each other.

https://www.americamagazine.org/content/all-things/faith-and-science-15-questions-dr-stephen-barr

https://pintswithaquinas.com/god-the-big-bang-and-the-multiverse-with-dr-stephen-barr/

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Thank you so much for providing your thoughts! I actually listen to Pints with Aquinas from time to time, so I'll have to check out his conversation with Dr. Barr.

Absolutely will be checking out his material. I see that he has a few books published, are there any in particular you recommend?

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There are more scientist that believe than people imagine.



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802873707/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Another one, different scientist author
https://www.amazon.com/Believing-Seeing-Physicist-Shattered-Necessity/dp/B09D3Z1GRL/ref=tmm_aud_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

RMF5630 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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I've been exploring different religious and philosophical ideas lately, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what convinces you that God exists. As someone who hasn't yet been convinced by arguments for the existence of God, I'm hoping to learn more about what draws others to belief in a higher power.

I don't necessarily doubt the possibility of such a being, but I also don't know how one could be proven or dis-proven definitively. That's why I'd like to hear from some of you who do believe in God - what is it about your experience or understanding of the world that makes you believe there is a God?

Of course, I'm open to hearing from people who don't believe in God as well. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

Read Dr Steven Barr. He is a Physicist and a devout Catholic.

I have really liked his books and his views, they make sense to me. He is able to put things into terms much better than I can.

I agree with the view that science cannot prove God, science studies and reveals the material world. God is not of the material world and therefore beyond scientific proof. We can affirm God's existence, but it is a faith or philosophical argument, not science.


Please keep in mind that this is Catholic based, as I am Catholic, I am not trying to start the reformation all over again! In this case, we believers are all on the same side. There are enough people trying to tear faith down that we don't need to go after each other.

https://www.americamagazine.org/content/all-things/faith-and-science-15-questions-dr-stephen-barr

https://pintswithaquinas.com/god-the-big-bang-and-the-multiverse-with-dr-stephen-barr/

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Thank you so much for providing your thoughts! I actually listen to Pints with Aquinas from time to time, so I'll have to check out his conversation with Dr. Barr.

Absolutely will be checking out his material. I see that he has a few books published, are there any in particular you recommend?

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https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802873707/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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Added it to my ThriftBooks wishlist, thank you!

RMF5630 said:

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I don't find a conflict between science and religion. But, I am neither a literalist or a materialist. I view Science as God's way for us to discover the natural world. Has nothing to do with spirituality or faith.

Was the Earth created in 6 days? I read that and think the author is conveying a point that it took time, not the number of hours or whether it was Standard Time or Day Light Savings Time.

Did 3 loaves and 2 fishes feed a multitude? Or, was Jesus's message so well received that people put aside their hunger to listen?

I don't see how those things change belief.Jesus used parables to teach. The Bible is a moral book, it uses parables and stories to teach a message. The historical fact of every part does not have to be dead on...

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I think we humans are sometimes very arrogant in what we are willing to believe.

I also think that a bit of an open mind can be useful.

For example, regarding the 'days' it took to create the universe, consider that during the first 'day' there was neither a Sun nor Moon. So obviously the nominal definition of a day would not apply here. This was conveyed not in an empirical sense, but in a narrative sense, like first God did this, then God did this, and so on. It would only matter if God established a specific timeline, yet there are a number of verses which emphasize the timeless nature in God's plans.

Now as to the loaves and fishes, I take that more literally. I do so because the text clearly says the loaves were small, the sort of bread someone would carry for a single meal. Yet the same text says that the leftovers filled several baskets. Like the account of Jesus turning water into wine, this is clearly a story explaining that God is not limited the way men are.

I have witnessed miracles in my life. I don't bring them up because some people won't believe a personal account. But I have seen enough impossible things to know that human assumptions are sometimes laughably wrong. I cannot deny what I have seen, although I suppose some do in order to reconcile matters in their mind. But if I have seen what I have seen, then there is indeed more going on here than humans can ever hope to control.

Hebrews 13:2 speaks to this, by the way.

Oldbear83 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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I don't find a conflict between science and religion. But, I am neither a literalist or a materialist. I view Science as God's way for us to discover the natural world. Has nothing to do with spirituality or faith.

Was the Earth created in 6 days? I read that and think the author is conveying a point that it took time, not the number of hours or whether it was Standard Time or Day Light Savings Time.

Did 3 loaves and 2 fishes feed a multitude? Or, was Jesus's message so well received that people put aside their hunger to listen?

I don't see how those things change belief.Jesus used parables to teach. The Bible is a moral book, it uses parables and stories to teach a message. The historical fact of every part does not have to be dead on...

---

I think we humans are sometimes very arrogant in what we are willing to believe.

I also think that a bit of an open mind can be useful.

For example, regarding the 'days' it took to create the universe, consider that during the first 'day' there was neither a Sun nor Moon. So obviously the nominal definition of a day would not apply here. This was conveyed not in an empirical sense, but in a narrative sense, like first God did this, then God did this, and so on. It would only matter if God established a specific timeline, yet there are a number of verses which emphasize the timeless nature in God's plans.

Now as to the loaves and fishes, I take that more literally. I do so because the text clearly says the loaves were small, the sort of bread someone would carry for a single meal. Yet the same text says that the leftovers filled several baskets. Like the account of Jesus turning water into wine, this is clearly a story explaining that God is not limited the way men are.

I have witnessed miracles in my life. I don't bring them up because some people won't believe a personal account. But I have seen enough impossible things to know that human assumptions are sometimes laughably wrong. I cannot deny what I have seen, although I suppose some do in order to reconcile matters in their mind. But if I have seen what I have seen, then there is indeed more going on here than humans can ever hope to control.

Hebrews 13:2 speaks to this, by the way.

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I agree with everything you say. I have no problem with any of it. I have seen and heard of miracles that there is no way something should have happened, someone should be alive or unexplained changes. I do believe in miracles. I can't prove they were miracles, so I leave them out of these conversations.

To me, if everyone on the hill got a loaf and fish or they were so entranced by Jesus's teaching no one ate so there was left overs to me is not the point of the account/story. Jesus's message attracted and kept a huge crowd that was listening to his message. He taught the Good News and people listened, in spite of Rome being right there.

If people need dollar for dollar proof that everything happened exactly as stated, then they are missing the point of faith and the message. Everyone questions, that is part of being human.

So, here is a philosophical question. Was Thomas saved? He would not believe until he saw and touched the risen Christ. Was he screwed when Jesus showed up because by definition he can't have faith, he had proof and that is not what was being asked of him?

BaylorJacket said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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26 years ago, my daughter was born 10 weeks early and weighed 2.6 lbs. She is perfectly healthy. Next week she will give birth to her own baby.

---

My once 2.6 lb. daughter gave birth yesterday to a 8 lb. 4 oz. baby boy! Two gifts from God.

Life is good.

---

Congratulations to you and your family!!l

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Thank you, Baylorjacket.