Chamberman said:

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He Hate Me said:

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Chamberman said:

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I'm no bible scholar, but most of those posting here aren't either, but are more likely to parrot back what their preacher told them on Sunday. Regardless, I choose to spend my time following the greatest commandments of loving God with all my heart and mind and loving others as much as I love myself. And less time focused on the behavior of others trying to separate the weeds from the wheat. If I accomplish that, then I believe that God will be pleased with my time on earth.

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Blessed are the neutral, for theirs is ....

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So the parable of the tares only applies to weak Christians? Got it!

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Tell me again, don't you just love Laodicea this time of year?

Redbrickbear said:

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Then why should we not discourage homosexual activity and sexuality....in favor of heterosexuality activity and sexuality?

Since no one is absolutely genetically born homosexual

---

Because there is nothing inherently wrong or evil with being homosexual. It is just another part of a person's makeup and experience, and is not something they should be ashamed of.

What's Reddit? I'm in my 60's, and definitely heard a lot more sermons than you have for sure.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Osodecentx said:

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I don't remember any poster saying it is an acceptable lifestyle. I have said there are people who have same sex attractions and who struggle with temptation.
There are people who are heterosexual who struggle with temptation (e.g. adultery or serial fornication).

Both groups have struggles with temptation

---

I am advocating that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle, even from a Christian worldview.

---

Then you are in complete darkness, and you are doing the work of Satan. I'm just gonna be clear and direct, this is the truth.

---

If you truly believe I am doing the work of Satan, just block me lol. Hopefully that way Satan won't be able to tempt you through my posts.

---

It wasn't for me. It was for you.

---

Nice

---

Don't say you weren't warned.

---

I don't need a warning, I need a reason. Care to give me one? How exactly do you know that I am doing the work of Satan?

He Hate Me said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Then why should we not discourage homosexual activity and sexuality....in favor of heterosexuality activity and sexuality?

Since no one is absolutely genetically born homosexual

---

Because there is nothing inherently wrong or evil with being homosexual.

---

Science disagrees with you.

---

Please provide the science. If you have scientifically proved the existence of evil, especially when talking about one's sexual orientation, you might be up for a Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine

BaylorJacket said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Then why should we not discourage homosexual activity and sexuality....in favor of heterosexuality activity and sexuality?

Since no one is absolutely genetically born homosexual

---

Because there is nothing inherently wrong or evil with being homosexual. It is just another part of a person's makeup and experience, and is not something they should be ashamed of.

---

Again,

Are we talking about this from a Religious or Secular point of view?

From a purely Secular point of view I suppose there is nothing wrong/evil about any sexual practice (as long as it has consent). That would include polygamy and BDSM.

But certainly we can at least agree from a Secular point of view there is nothing inherently positive about homosexuality. At the very least from a secular societal angle you would want to encourage sexual behavior that leads to procreation and the creation of future citizens and not encourage behavior that does the opposite.

From a religious point of view homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism are inherently wrong...and we can spend time arguing for why the Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mormonism) believe and teach that.

Chamberman said:

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What's Reddit? I'm in my 60's, and definitely heard a lot more sermons than you have for sure.

---

Here..have fun

https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/

https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/

Quote:

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Are we talking about this from a Religious or Secular point of view?

---

Both

Quote:

---

But certainly we can at least agree from a Secular point of view there is nothing inherently positive about homosexuality. At the very least from a secular societal angle you would want to encourage sexual behavior that leads to procreation and the creation of future citizens and not encourage behavior that does the opposite.

---

I disagree with this. If someone is homosexual, the ability to legally have a loving marriage and relationship is incredibly positive for both their physical and mental health, which in turn positively affects their ability to contribute to society in a healthy manner.

If we instead force them to be celibate, or try something like conversion therapy, this has been shown to increase depression and suicide attempts in this community. I'd argue this is a negative from both a secular and religious perspective.

Quote:

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From a religious point of view homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism are inherently wrong...and we can spend time arguing for why the Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mormonism) believe and teach that.

---

Please see my post above that walks through at a high level the Old Testament and New Testaments apparent view on Homosexuality. Add your response/thoughts there (and any other verses you find applicable), and I'd be happy to respond.

BaylorJacket said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Then why should we not discourage homosexual activity and sexuality....in favor of heterosexuality activity and sexuality?

Since no one is absolutely genetically born homosexual

---

Because there is nothing inherently wrong or evil with being homosexual.

---

Science disagrees with you.

---

Please provide the science. If you have scientifically proved the existence of evil, especially when talking about one's sexual orientation, you might be up for a Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine

---

You are serious, Clark? You don't know the increased rates of serious mental and physical illness and drug and alcohol dependency in the homosexual population versus their non-homosexual counterparts? Even the Washington Blade has reported on some of this. The information is out there if you want to research it.

This one can get you started:

https://thedaily.case.edu/gay-men-are-two-times-more-likely-to-have-inflammatory-bowel-disease-according-to-new-research/

BaylorJacket said:

---

Quote:

---

Are we talking about this from a Religious or Secular point of view?

---

Both

Quote:

---

But certainly we can at least agree from a Secular point of view there is nothing inherently positive about homosexuality. At the very least from a secular societal angle you would want to encourage sexual behavior that leads to procreation and the creation of future citizens and not encourage behavior that does the opposite.

---

I disagree with this. If someone is homosexual, the ability to legally have a loving marriage and relationship is incredibly positive for both their physical and mental health, which in turn positively affects their ability to contribute to society in a healthy manner.

If we instead force them to be celibate, or try something like conversion therapy, this has been shown to increase depression and suicide attempts in this community. I'd argue this is a negative from both a secular and religious perspective.

Quote:

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From a religious point of view homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism are inherently wrong...and we can spend time arguing for why the Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mormonism) believe and teach that.

---

Please see my post above that walks through at a high level the Old Testament and New Testaments apparent view on Homosexuality. Add your response/thoughts there (and any other verses you find applicable), and I'd be happy to respond.

---

1. Secular:

The modern USA of course (and most of the Western world) was recently in law not interested in forcing homosexuals be to celebrate. Not to mention since a vast number of male homosexuals marriages are in fact open....there is not much sexual fidelity going on in general.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html
[A study to be released next month is offering a rare glimpse inside gay relationships and reveals that monogamy is not a central feature for many...New research at San Francisco State University reveals just how common open relationships are among gay men and lesbians...about 50 percent of those surveyed have sex outside their relationships, with the knowledge and approval of their partners.]

What the USA (and most Western nations were doing pre-Obergefell) was interested in doing was setting the standard that heterosexual marriages that lead to procreation and the creation of future citizens was to be prioritized in law.

"The Heterosexual union has special social value because it is the indispensable means by which humans come into existence. What has special social value deserves special recognition and sanction."

Reasons also given included...Children hunger for their biological parents, Children need fathers, Children need mothers, Evidence on parenting by same-sex couples is inadequate, Evidence suggests children raised by homosexuals are more likely to experience gender and sexual disorder, Same-sex "marriage" would undercut the norm of sexual fidelity within marriage, Same-sex "marriage" would further isolate marriage from its procreative purpose, Same-sex "marriage" would further diminish the expectation of paternal commitment, Marriages thrive when spouses specialize in gender-typical roles, Women and marriage domesticate men.

https://www.frc.org/issuebrief/ten-arguments-from-social-science-against-same-sex-marriage

2. Religious:

I don't find your arguments/interpretations about the Old Testament and New Testaments view on Homosexuality compelling.

These scriptural teachings are as plain as day. And 2,000 years of unbroken Christian tradition, teaching, and practice up until the modern age (be it Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant...or in fact Jewish and Islamic) can attest to this unbroken interpretation of what sexuality is and is not moral and correct.

[In Amoris laetitia, Pope Francis said "there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God's plan for marriage and family." The Francis-approved responsum notes that the presence of any "positive elements" in same-sex relationships "cannot justify these relationships and render them legitimate objects of an ecclesial blessing, since the positive elements exist within the context of a union not ordered to the Creator's plan."]

He Hate Me said:

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BaylorJacket said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Then why should we not discourage homosexual activity and sexuality....in favor of heterosexuality activity and sexuality?

Since no one is absolutely genetically born homosexual

---

Because there is nothing inherently wrong or evil with being homosexual.

---

Science disagrees with you.

---

Please provide the science. If you have scientifically proved the existence of evil, especially when talking about one's sexual orientation, you might be up for a Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine

---

You are serious, Clark? You don't know the increased rates of serious mental and physical illness and drug and alcohol dependency in the homosexual population versus their non-homosexual counterparts? Even the Washington Blade has reported on some of this. The information is out there if you want to research it.

This one can get you started:

https://thedaily.case.edu/gay-men-are-two-times-more-likely-to-have-inflammatory-bowel-disease-according-to-new-research/

---

And a Black person in the US is statistically significantly more likely to commit a crime, but hopefully you'd agree that the color of their skin has nothing to do with their moral system, but instead arises from living conditions and civil rights gained relatively recently just a few decades ago among other variables.

Similarly, why do you think Homosexual people are more likely to experience depression and attempt suicide? Do you believe it's a simple symptom of their sexual orientation, or from how society and culture views their orientation? The majority of people who are LGTBQ commit suicide because they do not feel accepted and loved by their families and friends. The hateful rhetoric spewed that calls their orientation evil does not help either.

Also, no **** gay men are more likely to have IBS. How in the world is it a scientific conclusion that because gay men are more likely to get IBS, homosexuality is wrong/evil? There are diseases that heterosexuals are more likely to get, and some that homosexuals are likely to get. The vast majority are preventable with proper care and protection.

BaylorJacket said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Then why should we not discourage homosexual activity and sexuality....in favor of heterosexuality activity and sexuality?

Since no one is absolutely genetically born homosexual

---

Because there is nothing inherently wrong or evil with being homosexual.

---

Science disagrees with you.

---

Please provide the science. If you have scientifically proved the existence of evil, especially when talking about one's sexual orientation, you might be up for a Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine

---

You are serious, Clark? You don't know the increased rates of serious mental and physical illness and drug and alcohol dependency in the homosexual population versus their non-homosexual counterparts? Even the Washington Blade has reported on some of this. The information is out there if you want to research it.

This one can get you started:

https://thedaily.case.edu/gay-men-are-two-times-more-likely-to-have-inflammatory-bowel-disease-according-to-new-research/

---

And a Black person in the US is statistically significantly more likely to commit a crime, but hopefully you'd agree that the color of their skin has nothing to do with their moral system, but instead arises from living conditions and civil rights gained relatively recently just a few decades ago among other variables.

Similarly, why do you think Homosexual people are more likely to experience depression and attempt suicide? Do you believe it's a simple symptom of their sexual orientation, or from how society and culture views their orientation? The majority of people who are LGTBQ commit suicide because they do not feel accepted and loved by their families and friends. The hateful rhetoric spewed that calls their orientation evil does not help either.

Also, no **** gay men are more likely to have IBS. How in the world is it a scientific conclusion that because gay men are more likely to get IBS, homosexuality is wrong/evil? There are diseases that heterosexuals are more likely to get, and some that homosexuals are likely to get. The vast majority are preventable with proper care and protection.

---

So you think societal issues are all that there is?

Poverty (and historical discrimination) is the only cause of Black American crime?

Suicide rates among homosexuals is only the cause of the rest of American society not celebrating them enough?

I think that is a very progressive argument that is often made about these issues and the under current to most of our discourse in the USA.

But is it true?

BaylorJacket said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Osodecentx said:

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I don't remember any poster saying it is an acceptable lifestyle. I have said there are people who have same sex attractions and who struggle with temptation.
There are people who are heterosexual who struggle with temptation (e.g. adultery or serial fornication).

Both groups have struggles with temptation

---

I am advocating that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle, even from a Christian worldview.

---

Then you are in complete darkness, and you are doing the work of Satan. I'm just gonna be clear and direct, this is the truth.

---

If you truly believe I am doing the work of Satan, just block me lol. Hopefully that way Satan won't be able to tempt you through my posts.

---

It wasn't for me. It was for you.

---

Nice

---

Don't say you weren't warned.

---

I don't need a warning, I need a reason. Care to give me one? How exactly do you know that I am doing the work of Satan?

---

If you don't even believe Satan exists, what good would a reason do?

Just don't say you were never warned.

Quote:

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Reasons also given included...Children hunger for their biological parents, Children need fathers, Children need mothers, Evidence on parenting by same-sex couples is inadequate, Evidence suggests children raised by homosexuals are more likely to experience gender and sexual, Same-sex "marriage" would undercut the norm of sexual fidelity within marriage, Same-sex "marriage" would further isolate marriage from its procreative purpose, Same-sex "marriage" would further diminish the expectation of paternal commitment, Marriages thrive when spouses specialize in gender-typical roles, Women and marriage domesticate men.

---

Would you rather children remain in foster home than be raised by same-sex parents? Research has consistently shown that the stability and quality of the family environment, rather than the sexual orientation or marital status of the parents, are the most important factors in predicting child well-being.

Surprisingly, same-sex spouses can provide a stable and loving environment for a child.

Quote:

---

I don't find your arguments/interpretations about the Old Testament and New Testaments view on Homosexuality compelling.

These scriptural teachings are as plain as day. And 2,000 years of unbroken Christian tradition, teaching, and practice up until the modern age (be it Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant...or in fact Jewish and Islamic) can attest to this unbroken interpretation of what sexuality is and is not moral and correct.

---

That's fine that you don't find them compelling, but do you have a scripture counter-argument? I'm open to the idea that the bible is anti-homosexual, but I haven't seen it yet. Why is my interpretation incorrect? Do you think the Soddom and Gomorrah story is about homosexuality?

Ancient Jews wrote down laws on how to beat a slave nearly to death, the worth of a Jew/Non-Jew slave, and qualifications for raping captive women. The New Testament does nothing to break the pro-slavery narrative found in the Old Testament, yet over time we have as a society agreed upon the evil nature that is slavery. Orthodox != correct in every situation and topic.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

I don't remember any poster saying it is an acceptable lifestyle. I have said there are people who have same sex attractions and who struggle with temptation.
There are people who are heterosexual who struggle with temptation (e.g. adultery or serial fornication).

Both groups have struggles with temptation

---

I am advocating that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle, even from a Christian worldview.

---

Then you are in complete darkness, and you are doing the work of Satan. I'm just gonna be clear and direct, this is the truth.

---

If you truly believe I am doing the work of Satan, just block me lol. Hopefully that way Satan won't be able to tempt you through my posts.

---

It wasn't for me. It was for you.

---

Nice

---

Don't say you weren't warned.

---

I don't need a warning, I need a reason. Care to give me one? How exactly do you know that I am doing the work of Satan?

---

If you don't even believe Satan exists, what good would a reason do?

Just don't say you were never warned.

---

I prefer to live my life based on evidence and reason, not fear and superstition. But thanks for the warning.

BaylorJacket said:

---

Quote:

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Reasons also given included...Children hunger for their biological parents, Children need fathers, Children need mothers, Evidence on parenting by same-sex couples is inadequate, Evidence suggests children raised by homosexuals are more likely to experience gender and sexual, Same-sex "marriage" would undercut the norm of sexual fidelity within marriage, Same-sex "marriage" would further isolate marriage from its procreative purpose, Same-sex "marriage" would further diminish the expectation of paternal commitment, Marriages thrive when spouses specialize in gender-typical roles, Women and marriage domesticate men.

---

Would you rather children remain in foster home than be raised by same-sex parents? Research has consistently shown that the stability and quality of the family environment, rather than the sexual orientation or marital status of the parents, are the most important factors in predicting child well-being.

Surprisingly, same-sex spouses can provide a stable and loving environment for a child.

Quote:

---

I don't find your arguments/interpretations about the Old Testament and New Testaments view on Homosexuality compelling.

These scriptural teachings are as plain as day. And 2,000 years of unbroken Christian tradition, teaching, and practice up until the modern age (be it Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant...or in fact Jewish and Islamic) can attest to this unbroken interpretation of what sexuality is and is not moral and correct.

---

That's fine that you don't find them compelling, but do you have a scripture counter-argument? I'm open to the idea that the bible is anti-homosexual, but I haven't seen it yet. Why is my interpretation incorrect? Do you think the Soddom and Gomorrah story is about homosexuality?

Ancient Jews wrote down laws on how to beat a slave nearly to death, the worth of a Jew/Non-Jew slave, and qualifications for raping captive women. The New Testament does nothing to break the pro-slavery narrative found in the Old Testament, yet over time we have as a society agreed upon the evil nature that is slavery. Orthodox != correct in every situation and topic.

---

Is slavery the same a sexuality?

You make the analogy to bolster the case that we need to reinterpret the Bible. (many make that case)

I don't find the case for comparing slavery to various abhorrent sexual practices to be the same at all.

Redbrickbear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Then why should we not discourage homosexual activity and sexuality....in favor of heterosexuality activity and sexuality?

Since no one is absolutely genetically born homosexual

---

Because there is nothing inherently wrong or evil with being homosexual.

---

Science disagrees with you.

---

Please provide the science. If you have scientifically proved the existence of evil, especially when talking about one's sexual orientation, you might be up for a Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine

---

You are serious, Clark? You don't know the increased rates of serious mental and physical illness and drug and alcohol dependency in the homosexual population versus their non-homosexual counterparts? Even the Washington Blade has reported on some of this. The information is out there if you want to research it.

This one can get you started:

https://thedaily.case.edu/gay-men-are-two-times-more-likely-to-have-inflammatory-bowel-disease-according-to-new-research/

---

And a Black person in the US is statistically significantly more likely to commit a crime, but hopefully you'd agree that the color of their skin has nothing to do with their moral system, but instead arises from living conditions and civil rights gained relatively recently just a few decades ago among other variables.

Similarly, why do you think Homosexual people are more likely to experience depression and attempt suicide? Do you believe it's a simple symptom of their sexual orientation, or from how society and culture views their orientation? The majority of people who are LGTBQ commit suicide because they do not feel accepted and loved by their families and friends. The hateful rhetoric spewed that calls their orientation evil does not help either.

Also, no **** gay men are more likely to have IBS. How in the world is it a scientific conclusion that because gay men are more likely to get IBS, homosexuality is wrong/evil? There are diseases that heterosexuals are more likely to get, and some that homosexuals are likely to get. The vast majority are preventable with proper care and protection.

---

So you think societal issues are all that there is?

Poverty (and historical discrimination) is the only cause of Black American crime?

Suicide rates among homosexuals is only the cause of the rest of American society not celebrating them enough?

I think that is a very progressive argument that is often made about these issues and the under current to most of our discourse in the USA.

But is it true?

---

No, sorry if I was not clear. I do not think these are the only underlying reasons behind why statistically there is more crime among Black Americans, or suicide rates are higher in the LGBTQ+ community. However, it would be ridiculous to act like the provided reasons are not significant factors.

Genuinely curious, have you asked a gay person their thoughts on this topic? Why depression and suicide are higher among the community?

BaylorJacket said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Then why should we not discourage homosexual activity and sexuality....in favor of heterosexuality activity and sexuality?

Since no one is absolutely genetically born homosexual

---

Because there is nothing inherently wrong or evil with being homosexual.

---

Science disagrees with you.

---

Please provide the science. If you have scientifically proved the existence of evil, especially when talking about one's sexual orientation, you might be up for a Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine

---

You are serious, Clark? You don't know the increased rates of serious mental and physical illness and drug and alcohol dependency in the homosexual population versus their non-homosexual counterparts? Even the Washington Blade has reported on some of this. The information is out there if you want to research it.

This one can get you started:

https://thedaily.case.edu/gay-men-are-two-times-more-likely-to-have-inflammatory-bowel-disease-according-to-new-research/

---

And a Black person in the US is statistically significantly more likely to commit a crime, but hopefully you'd agree that the color of their skin has nothing to do with their moral system, but instead arises from living conditions and civil rights gained relatively recently just a few decades ago among other variables.

Similarly, why do you think Homosexual people are more likely to experience depression and attempt suicide? Do you believe it's a simple symptom of their sexual orientation, or from how society and culture views their orientation? The majority of people who are LGTBQ commit suicide because they do not feel accepted and loved by their families and friends. The hateful rhetoric spewed that calls their orientation evil does not help either.

Also, no **** gay men are more likely to have IBS. How in the world is it a scientific conclusion that because gay men are more likely to get IBS, homosexuality is wrong/evil? There are diseases that heterosexuals are more likely to get, and some that homosexuals are likely to get. The vast majority are preventable with proper care and protection.

---

So you think societal issues are all that there is?

Poverty (and historical discrimination) is the only cause of Black American crime?

Suicide rates among homosexuals is only the cause of the rest of American society not celebrating them enough?

I think that is a very progressive argument that is often made about these issues and the under current to most of our discourse in the USA.

But is it true?

---

Genuinely curious, have you asked a gay person their thoughts on this topic? Why depression and suicide are higher among the community?

---

Are someone's subjective thoughts good enough for you now? Or are you interested only in the science?

BaylorJacket said:

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Osodecentx said:

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BaylorJacket said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

I don't remember any poster saying it is an acceptable lifestyle. I have said there are people who have same sex attractions and who struggle with temptation.
There are people who are heterosexual who struggle with temptation (e.g. adultery or serial fornication).

Both groups have struggles with temptation

---

I am advocating that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle, even from a Christian worldview.

It is unfair to compare a straight person's struggle with adultery to a gay person's same-sex attraction. The straight person has the legal freedom to love and marry someone, and yet chooses to pursue a relationship outside of this marriage. Beyond spiritual implications, this action directly hurts their spouse.

What is the solution for a gay person who "struggles" with same-sex attraction? To be celibate the rest of their lives? Celibacy is something that one should choose themselves if they feel led and called to, so that they can focus on other aspects of their lives. However, forcing someone to be celibate seems cruel in my opinion.

---

I disagree. To say homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle from a Christian worldview would require ignoring many passages of scripture. That lifestyle is not God's best for you. The design is one man and one woman, but original sin ensued and lots of things God's plan changed for the worse.

---

Would love to continue this conversation if you are interested. Fully agree that the vast majority of animals partake in heterosexual activities, and regardless if you believe in a divine creator, or natural evolutionary processes - we can agree that the most natural sexual state given our anatomy is heterosexuality.

I would like to push back some though that scripture is clear on if homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle or not. Here is a high level why, any happy to further discuss any specific verses you find convincing:
1. Old Testament: The Old Testament is quiet on the topic, except some may point to Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis (19 or 20 I believe). In the story, the men of Sodom demand that Lot turn over his male guests so that they can "know" them, which is a euphemism for sexual assault. The story's focus is on the sin of in-hospitality and the extreme nature of the Sodomites' behavior.

2. New Testament Jesus: Jesus is silent on the topic as well, but some point to his teachings in Matthew 19 and try to interpolate the meaning. In this passage, Jesus is specifically responding to a question about divorce between a man and a woman, emphasizing the importance of the commitment between the two in marriage.

Divorce between same-sex couples was not a thing in 1st Century Jewish/Christian cultures, as same-sex marriages were not even viewed culturally as a concept. Jesus using the creation narrative, something his audience is likely very familiar with, to help answer the question on divorce is unsurprising. If one's takeaway from this chapter includes that marriage is solely between a man and a woman (and otherwise is a sin), I think it misses the point Jesus was trying to make.

3. New Testament Paul: The most commonly used Pauline writing I have seen to denounce homosexuality is Romans 1. The Greek word used in Romans 1:26-27 to describe same-sex relations is "arsenokoites," which is a compound word that combines the words for "male" and "bed." However, it is unclear what specific meaning this word had at the time Paul wrote his letter to the Romans. Some scholars believe that Paul may have coined the term, and its meaning has been debated ever since. In the context of the time, homosexuality was often associated with pagan religious practices that were considered morally objectionable. Therefore, Paul was perhaps not condemning all arsenokoites, but rather the specific practices that were associated with pagan worship. I believe it would be intellectually dishonest to conclude that we know what Paul meant here.

Summary: Since the bible is not clear on this topic (whether it's granted or a sin), I prefer not to take away people's freedoms due to the lack of explicit divine permission; rather, I would like to focus on promoting understanding and inclusivity.

My goal here is not to convince the conservative evangelical board-members that being gay is not a sin - rather, that it is a difficult and grey area when approaching scripture. Especially, when the core themes of Jesus' teachings are love, compassion, and forgiveness.

Hopefully this makes sense - looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

---

Right, the OT is so "quiet" and "unclear" about it that it directly states that the homosexual act is a detestable sin and an abomination in Leviticus. One has to really wonder about the honesty of someone who purposely omits something they surely knew was there.

And Paul is taking the greek translation of this passage in Leviticus ("arsen" - man, and "koitai" - bed) and combining them. He clearly has Leviticus in mind by writing this.

Also, Paul clearly characterizes as sin the "dishonorable passions" of sex between women and the "burning of lust" between men who commit "indecent acts with other men" in Romans chapter 1. Anyone with a basic level of intelligence knows what's being said here. There just isn't any justifcation to say this is "unclear". Your attempt to obfuscate all this is ridiculous, and more importantly, satanic.

He Hate Me said:

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I cannot believe you would try to draw a racial parallel. That is kind of sick actually.

---

And I think it is sick that you believe homosexual orientation is evil, and comparable to something like child rape - we can agree to disagree.

He Hate Me said:

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Maybe that is nature's (or science's) way of telling you that what you are doing is wrong. Why segments of society are trying to normalize this conduct when the results are so devastating for so many and their families is troubling.

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You said you had "scientific" evidence that proves homosexuality is wrong/evil. What you provided is far from science.

This is your opinion that you are trying to paint as science. Heterosexual people can and do get all the listed items from biblically blessed sexual relationships, so they are slightly less evil than gay people? This makes no sense.

He Hate Me said:

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Are someone's subjective thoughts good enough for you now? Or are you interested only in the science?

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No, someone's subjective thoughts in my opinion are not sufficient to remove a freedom from another human (in this case, the ability of marriage).

However, when discussing the reasoning for depression and suicide among a community, I believe it is valid and acceptable to talk with those among the community to get a better understanding, instead of just coming to conclusions based on a completely different worldview.

BaylorJacket said:

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He Hate Me said:

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I cannot believe you would try to draw a racial parallel. That is kind of sick actually.

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And I think it is sick that you believe homosexual orientation is evil, and comparable to something like child rape - we can agree to disagree.

He Hate Me said:

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Maybe that is nature's (or science's) way of telling you that what you are doing is wrong. Why segments of society are trying to normalize this conduct when the results are so devastating for so many and their families is troubling.

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You said you had "scientific" evidence that proves homosexuality is wrong/evil. What you provided is far from science.

This is your opinion that you are trying to paint as science.

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Science does not tell you what is wrong or evil. I would have thought a devout follower of Scientism as yourself might recognize that. Science does however give us clues as to what nature rewards and curses. T

BaylorJacket said:

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He Hate Me said:

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Are someone's subjective thoughts good enough for you now? Or are you interested only in the science?

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No, someone's subjective thoughts in my opinion are not sufficient to remove a freedom from another human (in this case, the ability of marriage).

However, when discussing the reasoning for depression and suicide among a community, I believe it is valid and acceptable to talk with those among the community to get a better understanding, instead of just coming to conclusions based on a completely different worldview.

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You "believe" not because it is sound science. You "believe" because you hope it serves your purpose and reinforces your view.

Quote:

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Right, the OT is so "quiet" and "unclear" about it that it directly states that the homosexual act is a detestable sin and an abomination in Leviticus. One has to really wonder about the honesty of someone who purposely omits something they surely knew was there.

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You are correct - I tend to not include Leviticus in critical analysis when thinking of Christian morality, mostly just due to a common belief in Christian theology that Levitical law is not required to be followed (I'm sure that those here that trim their beard don't think they're actually sinning). Like Paul says in Galatians 2:16, "yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

But yes, you are correct - when considering Jews or the Old Testament as a collection, Leviticus is probably a better example than Sodom & Gomorrah. I chose this story though, as it is (in my opinion) more relevant to the Christians on this board.

Regardless though, when I originally researched this topic in Leviticus I discovered that meaning has been lost in the translations from the original Hebrew. First the verb "lie" in Genesis refers to an incestuous relationship, and the meaning here in Leviticus is not clear if it's an adult relationship, or incest/pedophilia. Second, the conjunction of the sentence, "as", is closer translated to "like" in the oldest translations we have. So, the verse would read like this in English: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, like with womankind: it is an abomination." This further muddies the meaning, as this could be referring to a standard sexual relationship like you are referring to, or a dominant/submissive sexual relationship.

Additionally, it is worth noting that in the original Hebrew text, the gender of the woman in the relevant passage is clearly specified as an adult, while the noun used for the male is non-specific. As such, it is possible that the text is referring to either a young boy or a grown man, while the woman in question is unambiguously identified as an adult.

Quote:

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And Paul is taking the greek translation of this passage in Leviticus ("arsen" - man, and "koitai" - bed) and combining them. He clearly has Leviticus in mind by writing this.

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In some passages, Paul speaks of the OT law in a positive light, in some others he is critical. To say meaning here is clear is in my opinion not correct, but that is your interpretation so that's cool.

Quote:

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Also, Paul clearly characterizes as sin the "dishonorable passions" of sex between women and the "burning of lust" between men who commit "indecent acts with other men" in Romans chapter 1. Anyone with a basic level of intelligence knows what's being said here. There just isn't any justifcation to say this is "unclear". Your attempt to obfuscate all this is ridiculous, and more importantly, satanic.

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To frame Romans 1, we can probably agree it is about humanity's rebellion against God:
"Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 1:24-25)

In 1:26 specifically, Paul is discussing men and women who are assumed to be in relationship with each other:
"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." (Romans 1:26-27)

The verse in question suggests that some people have forsaken natural sexual relations in favor of unnatural ones, driven by lust as a result of their turning away from God and worshiping idols. It is not a matter of love, but rather a sinful expression of sexual desire that applies to both heterosexual and homosexual individuals.

He Hate Me said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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He Hate Me said:

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I cannot believe you would try to draw a racial parallel. That is kind of sick actually.

---

And I think it is sick that you believe homosexual orientation is evil, and comparable to something like child rape - we can agree to disagree.

He Hate Me said:

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Maybe that is nature's (or science's) way of telling you that what you are doing is wrong. Why segments of society are trying to normalize this conduct when the results are so devastating for so many and their families is troubling.

---

You said you had "scientific" evidence that proves homosexuality is wrong/evil. What you provided is far from science.

This is your opinion that you are trying to paint as science.

---

Science does not tell you what is wrong or evil. I would have thought a devout follower of Scientism as yourself might recognize that. Science does however give us clues as to what nature rewards and curses.

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Never once said that, but did get a chuckle out of Scientism lol - thank you.

Let's skip the scientism and jump to actual actionable items: what is your solution? Shall they legally be forced to remain celibate?

He Hate Me said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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He Hate Me said:

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Are someone's subjective thoughts good enough for you now? Or are you interested only in the science?

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No, someone's subjective thoughts in my opinion are not sufficient to remove a freedom from another human (in this case, the ability of marriage).

However, when discussing the reasoning for depression and suicide among a community, I believe it is valid and acceptable to talk with those among the community to get a better understanding, instead of just coming to conclusions based on a completely different worldview.

---

You "believe" not because it is sound science. You "believe" because you hope it serves your purpose and reinforces your view.

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No... it is just basic logic. If I'm interested in learning more about a particular sociology, psychology, and anthropology topic like depression in gay people, and I have direct access to the community in question, it is ridiculous to suggest that we do not listen to them instead of think for them.

Your opinion matters - it's why I enjoy discussing this topic with y'all, but when it comes to these kind of topics the perspective of the affected community with direct experience holds more weight.

J.R. said:

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Golem said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Golem said:

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He Hate Me said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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He Hate Me said:

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No one is a homosexual. There are people who engage in homosexual conduct. It is not an immutable characteristic as some would like you to believe.

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Holy ****, this might be the most ignorant post I've seen on the board. Homosexuality is by definition a sexual orientation that is characterized by a romantic and/or sexual attraction to individuals of the same gender.

Do you genuinely believe no one is actually homosexual?

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A homosexual is someone who engages in sexual conduct with someone of the same sex. If you don't act on a same sex attraction, then you are either celibate or still straight.

In other words, there is no homosexual without a homosexual act. No one is a homosexual but some acts are homosexual.

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Also, there are plenty of disordered sexual impulses. Pedophiles are sexually attracted to kids. Bestiality has humans sexually attracted to animals. Cuckoldry has men sexually attracted to the site of other men railing their wives. Sadists are sexually attracted inflicting pain. Masochists are sexually attracted to receiving pain. Necrophiliacs are sexually attracted to corpses.

The existence of sexual attraction to something or someone not fit for the purpose is not an orientation. It's a disorder. A vote by a group of politically motivated psychiatrists in 1973, while their gathering was protested by militant homosexual fetishists, will never change that.

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Do you genuinely believe that adults assaulting and raping children, or assaulting an animal, or assaulting a rotting corpse is even remotely in the same ballpark as two adults having a consensual relationship?

There is a monumental difference between assaulting someone/something, and consent between adults.

You may believe that this type of relationship is not as God intended, which I completely understand as I have once held the same view, but please do not lump homosexuals with child rapists. That is incredibly offensive and bigoted.

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You provide a definition of sexual attraction as a justification for behavior and as evidence it's a valid "orientation". I provided further examples of sexual attraction and you balk because they aren't yet culturally acceptable 'orientations'. You switch your argument from one of 'attraction = valid orientation' to one of consent when confronted with that exact argument.

I notice you left out the other examples I mentioned of disordered sexual attraction where adults consent to humiliation or extreme physical abuse. Because "consent", no doubt. Consent doesn't make something healthy or valid. Violently sodomizing a partner who is tied up, with a ball gag in her mouth, whilst spitting on her and calling her degrading names and then ejaculating on her face, isn't any less disordered because of consent.

All disordered sexual attraction is disordered, regardless at who or what it fetishizes. Remove God from the debate and substitute evolution and you can come to only that one conclusion, if you are intellectually honest. And they must ALL be chosen by the actor to act upon.

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so, you are gay?

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So, are you:

A. Re tar ded
B. A stroke victim
C. Dyslexic
D. A re tar ded, dyslexic, stroke victim

I'm betting option D. Either way, I find it super inspirational that you can push past your limits and type 2 and 3 letter words….despite the fact you crap your adult diaper every 30 minutes.

BaylorJacket said:

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He Hate Me said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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He Hate Me said:

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Are someone's subjective thoughts good enough for you now? Or are you interested only in the science?

---

No, someone's subjective thoughts in my opinion are not sufficient to remove a freedom from another human (in this case, the ability of marriage).

However, when discussing the reasoning for depression and suicide among a community, I believe it is valid and acceptable to talk with those among the community to get a better understanding, instead of just coming to conclusions based on a completely different worldview.

---

You "believe" not because it is sound science. You "believe" because you hope it serves your purpose and reinforces your view.

---

No... it is just basic logic. If I'm interested in learning more about a particular sociology, psychology, and anthropology topic like depression in gay people, and I have direct access to the community in question, it is ridiculous to suggest that we do not listen to them instead of think for them.

Your opinion matters - it's why I enjoy discussing this topic with y'all, but when it comes to these kind of topics the perspective of the affected community with direct experience holds more weight.

---

You could ask LGBTQ people why they have poor mental health outcomes. But I would caution against just taking their word for what is causing the problems.

For instance a lot of info is coming out about how poor mental health is among liberal girls.

Yet they would probably not say that being liberal or being a girl is what is causing all their problems.

Of course something is going on at a deep psychological level among this demographic.

There was no sign of a teen mental illness epidemic until around 2012. Then liberal girls' rates started increasing. Then everyone else. Why? @glukianoff nailed it: Reverse CBT, as I explain here:https://t.co/mLdsjkgpv7

— Jonathan Haidt (@JonHaidt) March 9, 2023

“Liberal girls have the highest increase in depressive affect and conservative boys have the least. But liberal boys are more depressed than conservative girls, suggesting an important independent role for political ideology.”

Interesting commentary -> https://t.co/kEdYAEXUyP

— Alicia Smith (@Alicia_Smith19) March 2, 2023

BaylorJacket said:

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Osodecentx said:

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I don't remember any poster saying it is an acceptable lifestyle. I have said there are people who have same sex attractions and who struggle with temptation.
There are people who are heterosexual who struggle with temptation (e.g. adultery or serial fornication).

Both groups have struggles with temptation

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I am advocating that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle, even from a Christian worldview.

It is unfair to compare a straight person's struggle with adultery to a gay person's same-sex attraction. The straight person has the legal freedom to love and marry someone, and yet chooses to pursue a relationship outside of this marriage. Beyond spiritual implications, this action directly hurts their spouse.

What is the solution for a gay person who "struggles" with same-sex attraction? To be celibate the rest of their lives? Celibacy is something that one should choose themselves if they feel led and called to, so that they can focus on other aspects of their lives. However, forcing someone to be celibate seems cruel in my opinion.

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paragraph 2: why do you get to make the rules?

You simply disagree with what scripture says. There are a lot of people that disagree with what scripture says but are humble enough to accept God's standards.

Why do some have anger issues?
Why do some struggle to control their diet?
Why do some go through life with great eyesight while others need glasses most of their lives?
Why was I given the footwork of a great post player but I'm only 5'7".

Some go through life with a thorn in the flesh while others go through a season.

Empathy doesn't change sin.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Osodecentx said:

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I don't remember any poster saying it is an acceptable lifestyle. I have said there are people who have same sex attractions and who struggle with temptation.
There are people who are heterosexual who struggle with temptation (e.g. adultery or serial fornication).

Both groups have struggles with temptation

---

I am advocating that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle, even from a Christian worldview.

It is unfair to compare a straight person's struggle with adultery to a gay person's same-sex attraction. The straight person has the legal freedom to love and marry someone, and yet chooses to pursue a relationship outside of this marriage. Beyond spiritual implications, this action directly hurts their spouse.

What is the solution for a gay person who "struggles" with same-sex attraction? To be celibate the rest of their lives? Celibacy is something that one should choose themselves if they feel led and called to, so that they can focus on other aspects of their lives. However, forcing someone to be celibate seems cruel in my opinion.

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paragraph 2: why do you get to make the rules?

You simply disagree with what scripture says. There are a lot of people that disagree with what scripture says but are humble enough to accept God's standards.

Why do some have anger issues?
Why do some struggle to control their diet?
Why do some go through life with great eyesight while others need glasses most of their lives?
Why was I given the footwork of a great post player but I'm only 5'7".

Some go through life with a thorn in the flesh while others go through a season.

Empathy doesn't change sin.

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I want to better understand your position. To confirm, you believe, due to scripture, that the best action for homosexual people is to remain celibate?

There are many things that I disagree with found in scripture - homosexuality though is not one of them, as the Bible is not clear on the topic as mentioned above.

He Hate Me said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Osodecentx said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Osodecentx said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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He Hate Me said:

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No one is a homosexual. There are people who engage in homosexual conduct. It is not an immutable characteristic as some would like you to believe.

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Holy ****, this might be the most ignorant post I've seen on the board. Homosexuality is by definition a sexual orientation that is characterized by a romantic and/or sexual attraction to individuals of the same gender.

Do you genuinely believe no one is actually homosexual?

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Have you ever read something on these boards that it made you want to slap that person upside the head and knock some sense into them?

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All the time

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and yet, you've not assaulted anyone. You've resisted your urges.

So by your method of applying definitions, you're a violent criminal yet by his method, you're not.

Double standard much?

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Aren't we all? It is the definition of civility.
I bet you have committed adultery in your heart. "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Heterosexuals who resist urges to rape can live exemplary lives and contribute to society.
Celibate homosexuals resist temptation and can live exemplary lives.

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Really just shows how bat **** crazy and evil the modern christian is. Rape and homosexuality is on the same level to you people. So glad this rabid breed of religion is fading out. Good luck in your struggles

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What is crazy is thinking that "mother nature" programmed a small minority of people to engage in physically and emotionally destructive behavior and you think they have no choice but to either engage in that destructive behavior or "struggle" with the urge to do so. What is crazy is thinking that there is a fatalistic determination on some people to injure themselves and subject themselves to high rates of disease and intimate-partner violence. That is crazy. I think we all have a choice.

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You are a mental illness denier? Your friends here that are more intelligent here won't call you out on this ignorant rebuttal because bigots need the useful idiots on their side.

ron.reagan said:

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He Hate Me said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Osodecentx said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Osodecentx said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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He Hate Me said:

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No one is a homosexual. There are people who engage in homosexual conduct. It is not an immutable characteristic as some would like you to believe.

---

Holy ****, this might be the most ignorant post I've seen on the board. Homosexuality is by definition a sexual orientation that is characterized by a romantic and/or sexual attraction to individuals of the same gender.

Do you genuinely believe no one is actually homosexual?

---

Have you ever read something on these boards that it made you want to slap that person upside the head and knock some sense into them?

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All the time

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and yet, you've not assaulted anyone. You've resisted your urges.

So by your method of applying definitions, you're a violent criminal yet by his method, you're not.

Double standard much?

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Aren't we all? It is the definition of civility.
I bet you have committed adultery in your heart. "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Heterosexuals who resist urges to rape can live exemplary lives and contribute to society.
Celibate homosexuals resist temptation and can live exemplary lives.

---

Really just shows how bat **** crazy and evil the modern christian is. Rape and homosexuality is on the same level to you people. So glad this rabid breed of religion is fading out. Good luck in your struggles

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What is crazy is thinking that "mother nature" programmed a small minority of people to engage in physically and emotionally destructive behavior and you think they have no choice but to either engage in that destructive behavior or "struggle" with the urge to do so. What is crazy is thinking that there is a fatalistic determination on some people to injure themselves and subject themselves to high rates of disease and intimate-partner violence. That is crazy. I think we all have a choice.

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You are a mental illness denier? Your friends here that are more intelligent here won't call you out on this ignorant rebuttal because bigots need the useful idiots on their side.

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There's bigotry on both sides.