4th and Inches said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Jesus appeared after the resurrection, what form was he? Let Paul speak to you: "But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" 36 Fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies."

Spiritual. Paul is pretty clear. I Corinthians 15:35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" 36 Fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you do not sow the body that is to be but a bare seed, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 Not all flesh is alike, but there is one flesh for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one thing, and that of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun and another glory of the moon and another glory of the stars; indeed, star differs from star in glory.
44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

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so Jesus in his spiritual body appeared and spoke after the resurrection.

Would it be fair to say that speaking with a spirit would be paranormal or beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation? Some might say a supernatural event? I did not say Jesus was a "spirit" after the resurrection but he had a spiritual body as Paul describes which is of God's choosing.

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Waco has introduced us to his fave hobby:

Origami with words.

Oldbear83 said:

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Waco has introduced us to his fave hobby:

Origami with words.

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He's still trying to figure out how he is going to get to heaven when the Lord calls him out for supporting the very people that murdered 60,000,000 of his children.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Your mistake is believing that the failure of the Catholic tradition is a defeat of Jesus' Church.

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Jesus created the Catholic Church. Please go to Google, Alexa, Wiki, Encyclopedia Britannica, etc. Ask them who started the Church.

Who started your church? You won't even provide the name of your church or denomination. You have NO authority. Your church, at best, is only a few hundred years old.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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And there is no need to address a "miracle" that isn't verifiable. Other religions claim miracles, with their "proof" as well, that requires faith. We should only have faith in Jesus, and in his Word.

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I provided a link with 130 verified Eucharistic miracles that have occurred since 700AD. Jesus commanded the bread to become his body. He has given the Church proof of this more than 100 times. Funny, how you doubt this, much like Waco47 doubts the physical resurrection. The proof is there for anyone to inspect.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- you're still avoiding the question. I find it strange, yet I'm not surprised, that you are so resistant to give glory to Jesus over that to the saints. See the last sentence of this post.

- if you think that from that example, that the WIFE is the one with the problem, then it explains everything about you and your beliefs. Again, see last sentence.

- if you agree with King Solomon that only God knows the heart of man, then why do you believe Mary and the saints know your heart when you pray?

- There is NO defense of those prayers. NO true Christian with the Holy Spirit would think those prayers are ok, or defend them. That includes JPII. There are no outstanding articles defending such blatant idolatry and heresy. You are stuck in a circular logic of error. It's so sad how this is so obvious but you don't see it. I'm sorry if I offend you, but in my mind it is quite clear that you are not a Christian.

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You don't offend me, you just won't accept what has been taught for the last 2000 years. You prefer to ascribe to your own bias because you can't break out of your paradigm.

Irrespective, I don't believe I would ever say to a person (unless they were a professed JW or LDS) that they were not a Christian. But, in your mind, you must feel that your beliefs are the arbiter of Christianity.

* Giving glory * We Catholics give glory to Jesus EVERY day. Mass is held 364 (no mass on Good Friday) days around the world at every hour of the day. Giving respect to saints does not take away from Jesus' glory. I'm sorry that you can't fathom that. I mentioned the analogy before that no artist is upset when we appreciate the art. You just can't understand that. I feel for you.

* Wife * another failed analogy on your part. We can honor Mary without taking away from the glory of Jesus. Jesus loves when we love his mother. He's not jealous. You need to take a step back and try to look at the other side without your blinders on. Why does the full moon shine so brightly? Because the sun illuminates it.

* King Solomon * you have once again either misinterpreted or attempted to twist scripture toward your view. KS is NOT referring to knowing prayers. He's referring to God judging one's soul.

Finally, I'll repost the link to a defense of the The Glories of Mary from Catholic Answers. If you really want to understand or want to question a real apologist, I'd suggest that you call Catholic Answers Live (888-31-TRUTH) tomorrow between 5PM and 7PM (CST). Tim Staples is the guest tomorrow. He literally wrote the book on Mary called Behold Thy Mother. Full disclosure, tomorrow is the last day of their quarterly pledge drive. They can't spend a great deal of time with a "back and forth", but answer any question that you pose to him. He's a former Southern Baptist turned Assemblies of God preacher who then converted to the Church.

As a matter of fact, he's looking for individuals to dialogue (not a debate) with on his podcast. 1-on-1 w/ Time Staples. He's very charitable and wants to field your objections.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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It is logical. If Jesus' body is that bread, and eating that bread is eating Jesus' literal flesh, then the moment the disciples at that bread they were saved if Jesus' literal words ("whoever eats my flesh HAS eternal life") are to be believed. It would mean they were saved at the Last Supper, not after Jesus' death and resurrection.

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We believe that God's grace is made available to us via the sacraments as a result of Jesus Christ choosing to "pay a debt he did not owe because we owed a debt we could not pay." In other words, the Sacraments are made efficacious by Christ's sacrifice.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Moreover, it would mean that anyone could eat that bread and be saved, regardless of their belief. If you disagree with this, then you're disagreeing with Jesus' literal and direct words "WHOEVER eats my flesh..." You're putting a condition on it. Jesus did not.

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No, St. Paul taught, "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself" (1 Corinthians 11:27-29).

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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The sacraments are not "magic". Grace can be imparted, but it remains up to us to remain properly disposed to receive that grace.

Also, it would mean that Jesus' body was sacrificed during the Last Supper, not on the cross.

It would also mean that Jesus could just save the whole world by making more of this bread, and having everyone eat it. It would mean that his torture and crucifixion could have been completely unnecessary.

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Nope, once again, the sacraments are made efficacious by his Sacrifice.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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So, obviously these things can't be true. Therefore you're literal interpretation can't be true.

Sir, if you can't understand this, then you're just not a logical person, or you're just in denial.

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No, it is you that are in denial.

• Jesus told you 6 times in John that it he meant it literally.
• He said it at the Last Supper in all three synoptic gospels.
• Paul affirms it twice in Corinthians.
• The Church fathers proclaim it since 107 AD.
• Any Jesus has provided the miracle of bread becoming actual flesh over 100 times that you can see today.

Serious question what more would Jesus have to do or say to convince you of the real presence? It's like arguing with an atheist over the existence of God and him refuting the preponderance of evidence.

Feel free to contact Catholic Answers Live radio show about this. The truly encourage and welcome your objections. They are live M-F from 5PM to 7PM.

4th and Inches said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Still love seeing you Catholics and Baptists (non dem) going at over doctrine that has nothing to do with how one live a life of faith in Jesus Christ.
One has to suspend reason and science to a Catholic or Baptist.
For Coke and Busy D. Doctrine trumps a scientific reality that we all live in. Existentialism is the remembrance we live now in a scientific world and we dropped a belief in the supernatural whether Catholic or Evangelical. To claim to believe in the supernatural when physics says otherwise and you personally rely on it every time you walk out the door or start your car. You live in a physics world and believe in a fantasy faith that gives you parking spaces. God is real in love and in our relationships with God, our neighbor and ourselves. But "Mary" who has a history made up by the Catholic Church and "Harmonizing the Scriptures" which is a made up understanding of scriptures. Mary's history of perpetual virginity although it maybe helpful spiritually to Catholics is not. scriptural witness. Harmonizing the scripture is simply a fantasy doctrine that ignores history, cultural context, and the messy transmission of scripture from oral to written. history to re-copying of texts.
My apologies for my bluntness but a evangelical/Catholic faith is doomed. As Jesus says, "You are blind guys." He was talking to really, really doctrinaire Pharisees who were out of touch with the reality of God's love.
Certainly, I do not belittle the faith of my Catholic and evangelical brothers here on this board. I see your faith in Jesus Christ lived out in a real world. You motivated by your love for Christ; hence, neighbor. I wish you extend that same grace to me as a faithful follower of Jesus.
If you lay aside doctrine and affirm each other real world faith you would do well by me and those who differ with you. There is too much holier than thou.
i repeat I don't doubt your real faith in Jesus Christ just your dogmatic thinking.
With our real world faith I think we can live in harmony.
I am belittling your doctrines but not your faith. There is a difference.
Now, as our founder said, "But it is sure, there is a special love that we owe to those who love God. So David: "All my delight is upon the saints that are in the earth, and upon such as excel in virtue." And so a greater than he: "A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another: as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are My disciples, if you have love one to another" (John 13:34, 35)."
This is you Coke and Dusty "All my delight is upon the saints that are in the earth, and upon such as excel in virtue." I delight in your genuine real world faith.

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you want us to use science of nature to explain our supernatural God?

LoL

Questions that deal with supernatural explanations are, by definition, beyond the realm of nature and hence, also beyond the realm of what can be studied by science.

Your real world faith is not in God but in mans understanding of the world around him.

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4th and Inches said:
so Jesus in his spiritual body appeared and spoke after the resurrection.

Would it be fair to say that speaking with a spirit would be paranormal or beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation? Some might say a supernatural event? I did not say Jesus was a "spirit" after the resurrection but he had a spiritual body as Paul describes which is of God's choosing.

Waco1947 said:

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4th and Inches said:
so Jesus in his spiritual body appeared and spoke after the resurrection.

Would it be fair to say that speaking with a spirit would be paranormal or beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation? Some might say a supernatural event? I did not say Jesus was a "spirit" after the resurrection but he had a spiritual body as Paul describes which is of God's choosing.

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Explain in detail or take the L for attempting semantics over substance

What is the difference between jesus being a spirit who interacted with his disciples post resurrection and Jesus appearing in a spiritual body and interacting with his disciples, post resurrection