Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

---

Sorry, been traveling and having a life. Yes, I see that I misread one of your statements and misconstrued its meaning. That misreading notwithstanding, you are still a hyper self righteous factious person who continually defies the expressed prayers of Jesus that we be one with your continued assault on the majority of Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions among others. You are the tool of Satan.

---

If that's an "apology" I'd certainly hate to receive your praise.

And the tool of Satan, rather, is one who encourages people to steal the honor, glory, and praise that is due Jesus and give it to someone else, and maliciously attack anyone who tries to get them to see their error.

---

What percentage of Christians do you believe are in some sort of danger of loosing their salvation? Speaking of salvation, you've never really enlightened us as to your views as far as I know, beyond the banal.

---

I think the Mary debate has run its course. No one is going to change their mind, and the dispute has caused some regrettable words.

BusyTarpDuster raises an interesting new topic though - what does a tool of Satan do? I think there are two types:

1. Some people genuinely hate Christians and relish going after them. Satan has no way to hurt God, so he goes after God's children and is elated to provoke rage and hatred in those who already hate believers.

2. Other people do not consciously attack Christians, but can be provoked through pride and ego. Satan takes special pleasure into tricking Christians into going after fellow Christians, often by suggesting the people they attack are 'not real Christians'.

And of course, some in group 1 claim to be Christians but show nothing of Christ's love in their behavior. Satan loves to sell the image that Christians are really no different from anyone else.

In the end, you can most often tell someone's heart by the fruits of their actions. And when in doubt, we should be patient with each other, especially when debating in public.

That's how I see it, anyway.

---

So do you believe that a true Christian, i.e. a "real Christian", having the Holy Spirit, would ever pray to Mary, saying "in you Mary I trust my eternal salvation and my soul", OR, would ever NOT see the problem in that?

---

BTD, exactly what do you plan to accomplish with that post? I have made my opinion very clear, and the Catholics here have made it clear they are not changing their opinion.

Presuming you are correct, what is the Christian course here? What shows Christ's love, and what would bring someone to pay attention to what you say?

---

What I hoped to accomplish with that post is simply an answer from you. Do you honestly believe a Christian can pray those prayers or be ok with them? If so, then I'd like to hear your answer.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

---

Sorry, been traveling and having a life. Yes, I see that I misread one of your statements and misconstrued its meaning. That misreading notwithstanding, you are still a hyper self righteous factious person who continually defies the expressed prayers of Jesus that we be one with your continued assault on the majority of Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions among others. You are the tool of Satan.

---

If that's an "apology" I'd certainly hate to receive your praise.

And the tool of Satan, rather, is one who encourages people to steal the honor, glory, and praise that is due Jesus and give it to someone else, and maliciously attack anyone who tries to get them to see their error.

---

What percentage of Christians do you believe are in some sort of danger of loosing their salvation? Speaking of salvation, you've never really enlightened us as to your views as far as I know, beyond the banal.

---

I think the Mary debate has run its course. No one is going to change their mind, and the dispute has caused some regrettable words.

BusyTarpDuster raises an interesting new topic though - what does a tool of Satan do? I think there are two types:

1. Some people genuinely hate Christians and relish going after them. Satan has no way to hurt God, so he goes after God's children and is elated to provoke rage and hatred in those who already hate believers.

2. Other people do not consciously attack Christians, but can be provoked through pride and ego. Satan takes special pleasure into tricking Christians into going after fellow Christians, often by suggesting the people they attack are 'not real Christians'.

And of course, some in group 1 claim to be Christians but show nothing of Christ's love in their behavior. Satan loves to sell the image that Christians are really no different from anyone else.

In the end, you can most often tell someone's heart by the fruits of their actions. And when in doubt, we should be patient with each other, especially when debating in public.

That's how I see it, anyway.

---

So do you believe that a true Christian, i.e. a "real Christian", having the Holy Spirit, would ever pray to Mary, saying "in you Mary I trust my eternal salvation and my soul", OR, would ever NOT see the problem in that?

---

BTD, exactly what do you plan to accomplish with that post? I have made my opinion very clear, and the Catholics here have made it clear they are not changing their opinion.

Presuming you are correct, what is the Christian course here? What shows Christ's love, and what would bring someone to pay attention to what you say?

---

What I hoped to accomplish with that post is simply an answer from you. Do you honestly believe a Christian can pray those prayers or be ok with them? If so, then I'd like to hear your answer.

---

Then you simply need to go back to any of my posts on that topic. I have been clear and consistent.

Have you not yet considered why Jesus made such a point of referring to the man who showed compassion, as a 'Samaritan'?

That speaks directly to your question, and while I know you have no regard for my opinion, you might want to consider Christ's opinion on the matter.

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

---

Sorry, been traveling and having a life. Yes, I see that I misread one of your statements and misconstrued its meaning. That misreading notwithstanding, you are still a hyper self righteous factious person who continually defies the expressed prayers of Jesus that we be one with your continued assault on the majority of Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions among others. You are the tool of Satan.

---

If that's an "apology" I'd certainly hate to receive your praise.

And the tool of Satan, rather, is one who encourages people to steal the honor, glory, and praise that is due Jesus and give it to someone else, and maliciously attack anyone who tries to get them to see their error.

---

What percentage of Christians do you believe are in some sort of danger of loosing their salvation? Speaking of salvation, you've never really enlightened us as to your views as far as I know, beyond the banal.

---

I think the Mary debate has run its course. No one is going to change their mind, and the dispute has caused some regrettable words.

BusyTarpDuster raises an interesting new topic though - what does a tool of Satan do? I think there are two types:

1. Some people genuinely hate Christians and relish going after them. Satan has no way to hurt God, so he goes after God's children and is elated to provoke rage and hatred in those who already hate believers.

2. Other people do not consciously attack Christians, but can be provoked through pride and ego. Satan takes special pleasure into tricking Christians into going after fellow Christians, often by suggesting the people they attack are 'not real Christians'.

And of course, some in group 1 claim to be Christians but show nothing of Christ's love in their behavior. Satan loves to sell the image that Christians are really no different from anyone else.

In the end, you can most often tell someone's heart by the fruits of their actions. And when in doubt, we should be patient with each other, especially when debating in public.

That's how I see it, anyway.

---

So do you believe that a true Christian, i.e. a "real Christian", having the Holy Spirit, would ever pray to Mary, saying "in you Mary I trust my eternal salvation and my soul", OR, would ever NOT see the problem in that?

---

BTD, exactly what do you plan to accomplish with that post? I have made my opinion very clear, and the Catholics here have made it clear they are not changing their opinion.

Presuming you are correct, what is the Christian course here? What shows Christ's love, and what would bring someone to pay attention to what you say?

---

What I hoped to accomplish with that post is simply an answer from you. Do you honestly believe a Christian can pray those prayers or be ok with them? If so, then I'd like to hear your answer.

---

Then you simply need to go back to any of my posts on that topic. I have been clear and consistent.

Have you not yet considered why Jesus made such a point of referring to the man who showed compassion, as a 'Samaritan'?

That speaks directly to your question, and while I know you have no regard for my opinion, you might want to consider Christ's opinion on the matter.

---

Can you show me where you answered that question? I don't recall you doing that.

And what is Christ's opinion on the matter, that you speak of?

The only true God is the God of the Bible. Hundreds of fulfilled prophecies prove this. Christ's miracles prove this. His death and resurrection proves this. The fact that the Bible was written by 40 authors and many didn't know each other, YET it fits together as one book proves this.

Please rate this thread if you haven't yet and please give it 5 stars if you think this topic is important.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

---

Sorry, been traveling and having a life. Yes, I see that I misread one of your statements and misconstrued its meaning. That misreading notwithstanding, you are still a hyper self righteous factious person who continually defies the expressed prayers of Jesus that we be one with your continued assault on the majority of Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions among others. You are the tool of Satan.

---

If that's an "apology" I'd certainly hate to receive your praise.

And the tool of Satan, rather, is one who encourages people to steal the honor, glory, and praise that is due Jesus and give it to someone else, and maliciously attack anyone who tries to get them to see their error.

---

What percentage of Christians do you believe are in some sort of danger of loosing their salvation? Speaking of salvation, you've never really enlightened us as to your views as far as I know, beyond the banal.

---

I think the Mary debate has run its course. No one is going to change their mind, and the dispute has caused some regrettable words.

BusyTarpDuster raises an interesting new topic though - what does a tool of Satan do? I think there are two types:

1. Some people genuinely hate Christians and relish going after them. Satan has no way to hurt God, so he goes after God's children and is elated to provoke rage and hatred in those who already hate believers.

2. Other people do not consciously attack Christians, but can be provoked through pride and ego. Satan takes special pleasure into tricking Christians into going after fellow Christians, often by suggesting the people they attack are 'not real Christians'.

And of course, some in group 1 claim to be Christians but show nothing of Christ's love in their behavior. Satan loves to sell the image that Christians are really no different from anyone else.

In the end, you can most often tell someone's heart by the fruits of their actions. And when in doubt, we should be patient with each other, especially when debating in public.

That's how I see it, anyway.

---

So do you believe that a true Christian, i.e. a "real Christian", having the Holy Spirit, would ever pray to Mary, saying "in you Mary I trust my eternal salvation and my soul", OR, would ever NOT see the problem in that?

---

BTD, exactly what do you plan to accomplish with that post? I have made my opinion very clear, and the Catholics here have made it clear they are not changing their opinion.

Presuming you are correct, what is the Christian course here? What shows Christ's love, and what would bring someone to pay attention to what you say?

---

What I hoped to accomplish with that post is simply an answer from you. Do you honestly believe a Christian can pray those prayers or be ok with them? If so, then I'd like to hear your answer.

---

Then you simply need to go back to any of my posts on that topic. I have been clear and consistent.

Have you not yet considered why Jesus made such a point of referring to the man who showed compassion, as a 'Samaritan'?

That speaks directly to your question, and while I know you have no regard for my opinion, you might want to consider Christ's opinion on the matter.

---

Can you show me where you answered that question? I don't recall you doing that.

And what is Christ's opinion on the matter, that you speak of?

---

if you would pay less attention to your own pride, and read what I wrote, my answers would be clear and easy to understand. I will not feed your laziness by repeating it again.

And as for Christ, I have already given you the key. Why was it important to Christ that the man was Samaritan?

When you understand that emphasis, you will understand what Jesus wanted to say.

If I simply tell you, you will simply ignore what I say as you have all along. If you will humble yourself and seek wisdom, some is right there in this thread for you.

Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet.

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

---

Sorry, been traveling and having a life. Yes, I see that I misread one of your statements and misconstrued its meaning. That misreading notwithstanding, you are still a hyper self righteous factious person who continually defies the expressed prayers of Jesus that we be one with your continued assault on the majority of Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions among others. You are the tool of Satan.

---

If that's an "apology" I'd certainly hate to receive your praise.

And the tool of Satan, rather, is one who encourages people to steal the honor, glory, and praise that is due Jesus and give it to someone else, and maliciously attack anyone who tries to get them to see their error.

---

What percentage of Christians do you believe are in some sort of danger of loosing their salvation? Speaking of salvation, you've never really enlightened us as to your views as far as I know, beyond the banal.

---

I think the Mary debate has run its course. No one is going to change their mind, and the dispute has caused some regrettable words.

BusyTarpDuster raises an interesting new topic though - what does a tool of Satan do? I think there are two types:

1. Some people genuinely hate Christians and relish going after them. Satan has no way to hurt God, so he goes after God's children and is elated to provoke rage and hatred in those who already hate believers.

2. Other people do not consciously attack Christians, but can be provoked through pride and ego. Satan takes special pleasure into tricking Christians into going after fellow Christians, often by suggesting the people they attack are 'not real Christians'.

And of course, some in group 1 claim to be Christians but show nothing of Christ's love in their behavior. Satan loves to sell the image that Christians are really no different from anyone else.

In the end, you can most often tell someone's heart by the fruits of their actions. And when in doubt, we should be patient with each other, especially when debating in public.

That's how I see it, anyway.

---

So do you believe that a true Christian, i.e. a "real Christian", having the Holy Spirit, would ever pray to Mary, saying "in you Mary I trust my eternal salvation and my soul", OR, would ever NOT see the problem in that?

---

BTD, exactly what do you plan to accomplish with that post? I have made my opinion very clear, and the Catholics here have made it clear they are not changing their opinion.

Presuming you are correct, what is the Christian course here? What shows Christ's love, and what would bring someone to pay attention to what you say?

---

What I hoped to accomplish with that post is simply an answer from you. Do you honestly believe a Christian can pray those prayers or be ok with them? If so, then I'd like to hear your answer.

---

Then you simply need to go back to any of my posts on that topic. I have been clear and consistent.

Have you not yet considered why Jesus made such a point of referring to the man who showed compassion, as a 'Samaritan'?

That speaks directly to your question, and while I know you have no regard for my opinion, you might want to consider Christ's opinion on the matter.

---

Can you show me where you answered that question? I don't recall you doing that.

And what is Christ's opinion on the matter, that you speak of?

---

if you would pay less attention to your own pride, and read what I wrote, my answers would be clear and easy to understand. I will not feed your laziness by repeating it again.

And as for Christ, I have already given you the key. Why was it important to Christ that the man was Samaritan?

When you understand that emphasis, you will understand what Jesus wanted to say.

If I simply tell you, you will simply ignore what I say as you have all along. If you will humble yourself and seek wisdom, some is right there in this thread for you.

---

Here, let me help you out:

Someone asks question: "Would a true Christian pray those prayers, or say they're ok?"

You: "Yes, and here's why...." OR, "No, and here's why...."

You can even point me to a specific post. But I don't think you will, because you didn't answer that question.

It would suit you better to answer questions directly and honestly, instead of deflecting with "keys' for us to hunt,scratch, and dig our way to find your precious pearls of wisdom. It would also suit you better to stop accusing others of "pride" and address the log in your own eye.

So why don't you just tell me what you think Jesus was trying to say there, and how it applies? Let's evaluate it and see if your reasoning is sound.

You are back to Pharisee Mode again, I see.

Always the speaker you are, never the student.

Oldbear83 said:

---

You are back to Pharisee Mode again, I see.

Always the speaker you are, never the student.

---

It's "Pharisee" to want an actual answer to a question or clarification of an answer??

You are really one strange cat. It always takes at least 10 posts to get you to answer a single question, and even then, you still don't. You spend so much time and energy fighting off the question, rather than taking the simple route by just answering it. And all the while, you claim some kind of moral superiority or high ground, and it's always the other guy with the problem. It really is quite strange. It just doesn't ring of truth.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, did the light bulb finally turn on?

What, no apology from you for calling me a "pernicious liar"?

---

Sorry, been traveling and having a life. Yes, I see that I misread one of your statements and misconstrued its meaning. That misreading notwithstanding, you are still a hyper self righteous factious person who continually defies the expressed prayers of Jesus that we be one with your continued assault on the majority of Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions among others. You are the tool of Satan.

---

If that's an "apology" I'd certainly hate to receive your praise.

And the tool of Satan, rather, is one who encourages people to steal the honor, glory, and praise that is due Jesus and give it to someone else, and maliciously attack anyone who tries to get them to see their error.

---

What percentage of Christians do you believe are in some sort of danger of loosing their salvation? Speaking of salvation, you've never really enlightened us as to your views as far as I know, beyond the banal.

---

I think the Mary debate has run its course. No one is going to change their mind, and the dispute has caused some regrettable words.

BusyTarpDuster raises an interesting new topic though - what does a tool of Satan do? I think there are two types:

1. Some people genuinely hate Christians and relish going after them. Satan has no way to hurt God, so he goes after God's children and is elated to provoke rage and hatred in those who already hate believers.

2. Other people do not consciously attack Christians, but can be provoked through pride and ego. Satan takes special pleasure into tricking Christians into going after fellow Christians, often by suggesting the people they attack are 'not real Christians'.

And of course, some in group 1 claim to be Christians but show nothing of Christ's love in their behavior. Satan loves to sell the image that Christians are really no different from anyone else.

In the end, you can most often tell someone's heart by the fruits of their actions. And when in doubt, we should be patient with each other, especially when debating in public.

That's how I see it, anyway.

---

So do you believe that a true Christian, i.e. a "real Christian", having the Holy Spirit, would ever pray to Mary, saying "in you Mary I trust my eternal salvation and my soul", OR, would ever NOT see the problem in that?

---

BTD, exactly what do you plan to accomplish with that post? I have made my opinion very clear, and the Catholics here have made it clear they are not changing their opinion.

Presuming you are correct, what is the Christian course here? What shows Christ's love, and what would bring someone to pay attention to what you say?

---

What I hoped to accomplish with that post is simply an answer from you. Do you honestly believe a Christian can pray those prayers or be ok with them? If so, then I'd like to hear your answer.

---

Then you simply need to go back to any of my posts on that topic. I have been clear and consistent.

Have you not yet considered why Jesus made such a point of referring to the man who showed compassion, as a 'Samaritan'?

That speaks directly to your question, and while I know you have no regard for my opinion, you might want to consider Christ's opinion on the matter.

---

Can you show me where you answered that question? I don't recall you doing that.

And what is Christ's opinion on the matter, that you speak of?

---

if you would pay less attention to your own pride, and read what I wrote, my answers would be clear and easy to understand. I will not feed your laziness by repeating it again.

And as for Christ, I have already given you the key. Why was it important to Christ that the man was Samaritan?

When you understand that emphasis, you will understand what Jesus wanted to say.

If I simply tell you, you will simply ignore what I say as you have all along. If you will humble yourself and seek wisdom, some is right there in this thread for you.

---

Here, let me help you out:

Someone asks question: "Would a true Christian pray those prayers, or say they're ok?"

You: "Yes, and here's why...." OR, "No, and here's why...."

You can even point me to a specific post. But I don't think you will, because you didn't answer that question.

It would suit you better to answer questions directly and honestly, instead of deflecting with "keys' for us to hunt,scratch, and dig our way to find your precious pearls of wisdom. It would also suit you better to stop accusing others of "pride" and address the log in your own eye.

So why don't you just tell me what you think Jesus was trying to say there, and how it applies? Let's evaluate it and see if your reasoning is sound.

---

When you encounter someone who refuses to answer the questions directly, it's usually because they have a weak argument or no argument and don't want to acknowledge the truth. It shouldn't be so hard to get a truthful person to plainly answer a simple question. It's not prideful to expect an honest answer. It's what anyone would want.

You continue with personal attacks, I see. This demonstrates what I already said, that no matter what I say, you will reject it out of spite.

Therefore I can only direct you to consider Christ's words. I have given you the path, I cannot force you to walk it.

When I encounter someone who ignores everything written, and who attacks anyone with a differing opinion, even when they quote Scripture, I recognize someone who has replaced Christ with their own ego.

Oldbear83 said:

---

You continue with personal attacks, I see. This demonstrates what I already said, that no matter what I say, you will reject it out of spite.

Therefore I can only direct you to consider Christ's words. I have given you the path, I cannot force you to walk it.

---

Sir, people who read this forum aren't dumb. They know it when someone is dodging questions and is just trying to bs their way through it. It shows a lack of conviction and it makes you look like a fraud.

You are not some wise ancient guru sitting at the top of a mountain, where we must scratch and claw our way to get to, so you can grace us with a piece of your wisdom wrapped in a riddle that we must solve. Just speak plainly. I have no idea what the story of the Samaritan has to do with my question that I asked you. If you really think it is relevant, then explain it. If you don't explain it, but instead you just post more rambling nonsense about how I'm a "Pharisee" or how my ego and pride are the problems just for asking the question, then you'll just be showing that you have an empty hand.

BTD: "Sir, people who read this forum aren't dumb"

Yes. Just ask Coke Bear curtpenn, or Sam Lowry about your posts here, your attacks and your spite.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD: "Sir, people who read this forum aren't dumb"

Yes. Just ask Coke Bear curtpenn, or Sam Lowry about your posts here, your attacks and your spite.

---

In dark places and in quiet corners, even they would acknowledge that you've done nothing but dodge.

Just like you did here. Yet again.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD: "Sir, people who read this forum aren't dumb"

Yes. Just ask Coke Bear curtpenn, or Sam Lowry about your posts here, your attacks and your spite.

---

In dark places and in quiet corners, even they would acknowledge that you've done nothing but dodge.

Just like you did here. Yet again.

---

Your problem is that this thread proves something very different.

I will pray for you, you are far from the Lord these days.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD: "Sir, people who read this forum aren't dumb"

Yes. Just ask Coke Bear curtpenn, or Sam Lowry about your posts here, your attacks and your spite.

---

In dark places and in quiet corners, even they would acknowledge that you've done nothing but dodge.

Just like you did here. Yet again.

---

Your problem is that this thread proves something very different.

I will pray for you, you are far from the Lord these days.

---

Where does the intellectual dishonesty of dodging questions and being wishy washy with the truth rank in terms of being "far from the Lord"?

So, then we can conclude that Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone in Christ, believing that He died and rose again for our sins.

Church, Baptism, Good Deeds, Communion/Sacraments do not have any part in Salvation. They are good things to do, but do not save.

Mary was not sinless

Jesus had Brothers

We are to pray only to God, not Mary or Saints.

Purgatory is not Biblical and therefore a false teaching

Priests and Ministers can and should be allowed to marry to avoid fornication

There are some religions out there who teach that there is no such thing as Hell. Some teach that hell is the only the grave. Some teach that hell is a place where souls are burned up in an instant. But that is not what the bible teaches. Today, I am going to demonstrate though the word of God that hell is a literal place of torment.

Where is hell?

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Hell is down. Most bible scholars believe that it is in the center of the earth.

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus's body remained on the earth, but His Spirit went to the heart of the earth, or center. Where is the heart of something located? In the center.
What is Hell?

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Hell is a prison.
It is a prison for those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. Hell is no laughing matter. There is no party in hell.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {strange: Gr. other}

Lu 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

First of all notice that this man was not happy. It says that he was tormented in this FLAME. Hell is fire. It is an eternal flame that never goes out.

Mr 9:3 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It says where their worm dieth not and the FIRE is NOT quenched. Hell is eternal torment by fire.
Hell is outer darkness. There is no light there. It is pitch black, forever.

Mt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Lu 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Who goes to hell, and what is after hell?

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

One day after everyone has been judged, hell and death will be cast into the lake of fire.

Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The devil is going to be cast into the lake of fire. Notice that it is a place of torment and that torment never ends.

Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Those who reject Jesus Christ and accept the mark of the beast are going to the lake of fire.

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Those who reject Jesus Christ won't be found written in the book of life. They also will be cast into the lake of fire.

There is only one way out. That way is Jesus Christ.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Who is God willing to save from hell and the lake of fire?

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How do we do this?

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The bible says that whosoever believeth on Him shall NOT be ashamed. Are you willing to accept Jesus Christ today to be your Savior?

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

God is willing to save ANYONE no matter what you have done, if you will simply call upon upon Jesus Christ to save you. Will you do that today?

If you want to accept Jesus free gift of salvation, or if you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, you could place your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation by praying a simple prayer:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as a Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."


If you have placed your faith in Jesus Christ and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.

A Prayer by Pastor John Crable:



John Crable

JUST IN CASE U MIGHT PRAY!!

Father God,

I pray that you would create in me a right heart and renew in me a right spirit.
I also pray today that you would forgive me of all my actions,words and deeds that do not serve you. Help me O Lord to be more attentative to your Holy Spirit. Please give me eyes to see ears to hear and a heart to recieve what your Spirit has to say. Lord please sever and break any negative oaths or affirmations I have made with anyone or anything that is ungodly and is keeping me in bondage. I repent of these things knowing that if I cannot serve in word and deed in a way that glorifies God I am in error. Please lead me on the narrow path to you,as you did with the patriarchs before me in the faith. Father, I also come before you today to ask you to free me from all forms of demonic spiritual attack! Including but not limited to headaches,pain in my body,un natural hindrances,and any lack of mental clarity! Just as Satan desired to sift Peter as wheat and you prayed for him Lord Jesus I pray you would do no less for me now. Just as you fought the battle for Jehosophat and your children,today I pray you would let me but stand and watch your mighty work. Please release me now Father God from any sifting by the enemies of God. Let my demonic enemies be confounded,their snares upon me and my family be sprung,and all their plans be as nothing. Let all the enemies of God coming against me and my family be covered in your unrelenting wrath,so that they may know that you are the Lord! And I ask that you would set them ablaze until chaff or great damage is all that remains of them! I ask this all in the mighty name of Jesus Christ! Amen
I thank you Lord for the precious blood you shed,your precious healing.your deliverance and the cross and the testimonial I have in you...knowing of your death a sacrifice for sin,your precious blood shed for my atonement,and your resurrection destroying the barrier of death and opening the way to eternal life........

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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You are back to Pharisee Mode again, I see.

Always the speaker you are, never the student.

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It's "Pharisee" to want an actual answer to a question or clarification of an answer??

You are really one strange cat. It always takes at least 10 posts to get you to answer a single question, and even then, you still don't. You spend so much time and energy fighting off the question, rather than taking the simple route by just answering it. And all the while, you claim some kind of moral superiority or high ground, and it's always the other guy with the problem. It really is quite strange. It just doesn't ring of truth.

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Hypocrite.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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So, then we can conclude that Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone in Christ, believing that He died and rose again for our sins.

Church, Baptism, Good Deeds, Communion/Sacraments do not have any part in Salvation. They are good things to do, but do not save.

Mary was not sinless

Jesus had Brothers

We are to pray only to God, not Mary or Saints.

Purgatory is not Biblical and therefore a false teaching

Priests and Ministers can and should be allowed to marry to avoid fornication

---

Mixed bag there; Salvation is indeed by grace through faith in Christ. No need for the rest of that paragraph. Agree that the items enumerated are not in themselves salvific. I understand the arguments for the sinlessness of Mary and concede it might be true, but don't view it as necessary one way or the others. You are wrong about requesting intercession from the communion of saints. Purgatory may be Biblical, or not. I'm agnostic about this. Priests and ministers should be allowed to marry. Your bit about fornication is unnecessary. BTW, interesting that you chose to include priests. I believe there is a difference between priests and ministers due to the sacerdotal nature of the priestly function.

No, God didn't create robots. He gave us free will to choose good or evil and for a time, is allowing the consequences of those choices to come to fruition to demonstrate what happens when we sin. But God will judge all men in the end of time. No one will get away with anything. God is not mocked.

curtpenn said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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So, then we can conclude that Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone in Christ, believing that He died and rose again for our sins.

Church, Baptism, Good Deeds, Communion/Sacraments do not have any part in Salvation. They are good things to do, but do not save.

Mary was not sinless

Jesus had Brothers

We are to pray only to God, not Mary or Saints.

Purgatory is not Biblical and therefore a false teaching

Priests and Ministers can and should be allowed to marry to avoid fornication

---

Mixed bag there; Salvation is indeed by grace through faith in Christ. No need for the rest of that paragraph. Agree that the items enumerated are not in themselves salvific. I understand the arguments for the sinlessness of Mary and concede it might be true, but don't view it as necessary one way or the others. You are wrong about requesting intercession from the communion of saints. Purgatory may be Biblical, or not. I'm agnostic about this. Priests and ministers should be allowed to marry. Your bit about fornication is unnecessary. BTW, interesting that you chose to include priests. I believe there is a difference between priests and ministers due to the sacerdotal nature of the priestly function.

---

Mary was not sinless. Only Christ was. It's not Biblical to say that she was. The Bible says for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I do not request intercession from communion of Saints. Christ is the Intercessor for all who believe. The Bible says that there is one God and one Mediator between God and Men, the Man Christ Jesus.

Purgatory is completely unBiblical. It's never even mentioned in the Bible. It's make believe.

Yes, Priests and Ministers should be allowed to marry. It's prescribed in the Bible for a reason. God doesn't force anyone to remain unMarried. It leads to fornication that God hates. The Bible is where I get my BIT for fornication, so it's appropriate.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Priests and Pastors are the same thing. Pastors and Priests would be included in this verse:


1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; {of good...: or, modest}

You would have to prove me wrong Scripturally because that's how I see it.

Frodo: "God is not mocked."

Indeed, especially when someone tries to use Him as their puppet.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

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So, then we can conclude that Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone in Christ, believing that He died and rose again for our sins.

Church, Baptism, Good Deeds, Communion/Sacraments do not have any part in Salvation. They are good things to do, but do not save.

Mary was not sinless

Jesus had Brothers

We are to pray only to God, not Mary or Saints.

Purgatory is not Biblical and therefore a false teaching

Priests and Ministers can and should be allowed to marry to avoid fornication

---

Mixed bag there; Salvation is indeed by grace through faith in Christ. No need for the rest of that paragraph. Agree that the items enumerated are not in themselves salvific. I understand the arguments for the sinlessness of Mary and concede it might be true, but don't view it as necessary one way or the others. You are wrong about requesting intercession from the communion of saints. Purgatory may be Biblical, or not. I'm agnostic about this. Priests and ministers should be allowed to marry. Your bit about fornication is unnecessary. BTW, interesting that you chose to include priests. I believe there is a difference between priests and ministers due to the sacerdotal nature of the priestly function.

---

Mary was not sinless. Only Christ was. It's not Biblical to say that she was. The Bible says for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I do not request intercession from communion of Saints. Christ is the Intercessor for all who believe. The Bible says that there is one God and one Mediator between God and Men, the Man Christ Jesus.

Purgatory is completely unBiblical. It's never even mentioned in the Bible. It's make believe.

Yes, Priests and Ministers should be allowed to marry. It's prescribed in the Bible for a reason. God doesn't force anyone to remain unMarried. It leads to fornication that God hates. The Bible is where I get my BIT for fornication, so it's appropriate.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Priests and Pastors are the same thing. Pastors and Priests would be included in this verse:


1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; {of good...: or, modest}

You would have to prove me wrong Scripturally because that's how I see it.

---

From St Paul's first letter to the Corinthians 7:8 "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I." Yeah, Sola Scriptura.

If Christ is the intercessor for all who believe, do you not request intercession from anyone ever? Do you never intercede for a friend? Yes, that again, but the point remains.

1Peter 1:6-7 and 1Corinthians 3:13-15 suggest trials of some sort using the imagery of fire. Micah 7:8-9 and Malachi 3:2-4 also speak of a need for judgment and refining fire. Early Christians inferred from these and other references the need for purgation. As I said, I am agnostic about this, but this small sample perfectly captures the tension between Sola Scriptura and Prima Scriptura.

Just curious if you viewed priests as different in any way from pastors or ministers regardless of job requirements. I certainly think they are not the same functionally.

curtpenn said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

So, then we can conclude that Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone in Christ, believing that He died and rose again for our sins.

Church, Baptism, Good Deeds, Communion/Sacraments do not have any part in Salvation. They are good things to do, but do not save.

Mary was not sinless

Jesus had Brothers

We are to pray only to God, not Mary or Saints.

Purgatory is not Biblical and therefore a false teaching

Priests and Ministers can and should be allowed to marry to avoid fornication

---

Mixed bag there; Salvation is indeed by grace through faith in Christ. No need for the rest of that paragraph. Agree that the items enumerated are not in themselves salvific. I understand the arguments for the sinlessness of Mary and concede it might be true, but don't view it as necessary one way or the others. You are wrong about requesting intercession from the communion of saints. Purgatory may be Biblical, or not. I'm agnostic about this. Priests and ministers should be allowed to marry. Your bit about fornication is unnecessary. BTW, interesting that you chose to include priests. I believe there is a difference between priests and ministers due to the sacerdotal nature of the priestly function.

---

Mary was not sinless. Only Christ was. It's not Biblical to say that she was. The Bible says for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I do not request intercession from communion of Saints. Christ is the Intercessor for all who believe. The Bible says that there is one God and one Mediator between God and Men, the Man Christ Jesus.

Purgatory is completely unBiblical. It's never even mentioned in the Bible. It's make believe.

Yes, Priests and Ministers should be allowed to marry. It's prescribed in the Bible for a reason. God doesn't force anyone to remain unMarried. It leads to fornication that God hates. The Bible is where I get my BIT for fornication, so it's appropriate.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Priests and Pastors are the same thing. Pastors and Priests would be included in this verse:


1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; {of good...: or, modest}

You would have to prove me wrong Scripturally because that's how I see it.

---

From St Paul's first letter to the Corinthians 7:8 "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I." Yeah, Sola Scriptura.

If Christ is the intercessor for all who believe, do you not request intercession from anyone ever? Do you never intercede for a friend? Yes, that again, but the point remains.

1Peter 1:6-7 and 1Corinthians 3:13-15 suggest trials of some sort using the imagery of fire. Micah 7:8-9 and Malachi 3:2-4 also speak of a need for judgment and refining fire. Early Christians inferred from these and other references the need for purgation. As I said, I am agnostic about this, but this small sample perfectly captures the tension between Sola Scriptura and Prima Scriptura.

Just curious if you viewed priests as different in any way from pastors or ministers regardless of job requirements. I certainly think they are not the same functionally.

---

Paul goes on to say that he spoke that NOT of commandment, meaning that God didn't tell him specifically to say that, but also, he said that if you DO marry, you aren't sinning. This includes Pastors or Priests. The criteria for them is that they are the "Husband of 1 wife", so they are free to marry if they want to.

I don't pray to dead people. No where in the Bible does ANYONE at any time pray to the dead. Christ is the intercessor and the only mediator between God and men. Yes I ask LIVING people to pray for me NOT the dead.

That fire is a future Judgement for Believers for REWARDS in heaven, NOT for the dead after they die. God is going to Judge a believers works in the fire for REWARDS, NOT for Salvation. That small sample is the Bemis Seat of Christ to the Believers only. The Great White Throne Judgement is for the Unbelievers and THEY are judged on their sins and cast into the Lake of fire.

I view a Priest and a Pastor as the same roll in this day and age. My Church has Pastors not Priests. I believe that Priests were unique to Israel and sacrificed animals to God. I disagree with calling the Minister a Priest in this age of Grace, I would call them Pastors.

curtpenn said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

So, then we can conclude that Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone in Christ, believing that He died and rose again for our sins.

Church, Baptism, Good Deeds, Communion/Sacraments do not have any part in Salvation. They are good things to do, but do not save.

Mary was not sinless

Jesus had Brothers

We are to pray only to God, not Mary or Saints.

Purgatory is not Biblical and therefore a false teaching

Priests and Ministers can and should be allowed to marry to avoid fornication

---

Mixed bag there; Salvation is indeed by grace through faith in Christ. No need for the rest of that paragraph. Agree that the items enumerated are not in themselves salvific. I understand the arguments for the sinlessness of Mary and concede it might be true, but don't view it as necessary one way or the others. You are wrong about requesting intercession from the communion of saints. Purgatory may be Biblical, or not. I'm agnostic about this. Priests and ministers should be allowed to marry. Your bit about fornication is unnecessary. BTW, interesting that you chose to include priests. I believe there is a difference between priests and ministers due to the sacerdotal nature of the priestly function.

---

Mary was not sinless. Only Christ was. It's not Biblical to say that she was. The Bible says for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I do not request intercession from communion of Saints. Christ is the Intercessor for all who believe. The Bible says that there is one God and one Mediator between God and Men, the Man Christ Jesus.

Purgatory is completely unBiblical. It's never even mentioned in the Bible. It's make believe.

Yes, Priests and Ministers should be allowed to marry. It's prescribed in the Bible for a reason. God doesn't force anyone to remain unMarried. It leads to fornication that God hates. The Bible is where I get my BIT for fornication, so it's appropriate.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Priests and Pastors are the same thing. Pastors and Priests would be included in this verse:


1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; {of good...: or, modest}

You would have to prove me wrong Scripturally because that's how I see it.

---

From St Paul's first letter to the Corinthians 7:8 "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I." Yeah, Sola Scriptura.

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This is what I mean by using scripture in bad faith. Like frodo pointed out, you left out the entire context of this passage. "Yeah, Sola Scriptura"?? It is very odd, your disrespect for the very Scripture that you profess to be God-breathed.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

So, then we can conclude that Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone in Christ, believing that He died and rose again for our sins.

Church, Baptism, Good Deeds, Communion/Sacraments do not have any part in Salvation. They are good things to do, but do not save.

Mary was not sinless

Jesus had Brothers

We are to pray only to God, not Mary or Saints.

Purgatory is not Biblical and therefore a false teaching

Priests and Ministers can and should be allowed to marry to avoid fornication

---

Mixed bag there; Salvation is indeed by grace through faith in Christ. No need for the rest of that paragraph. Agree that the items enumerated are not in themselves salvific. I understand the arguments for the sinlessness of Mary and concede it might be true, but don't view it as necessary one way or the others. You are wrong about requesting intercession from the communion of saints. Purgatory may be Biblical, or not. I'm agnostic about this. Priests and ministers should be allowed to marry. Your bit about fornication is unnecessary. BTW, interesting that you chose to include priests. I believe there is a difference between priests and ministers due to the sacerdotal nature of the priestly function.

---

Mary was not sinless. Only Christ was. It's not Biblical to say that she was. The Bible says for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I do not request intercession from communion of Saints. Christ is the Intercessor for all who believe. The Bible says that there is one God and one Mediator between God and Men, the Man Christ Jesus.

Purgatory is completely unBiblical. It's never even mentioned in the Bible. It's make believe.

Yes, Priests and Ministers should be allowed to marry. It's prescribed in the Bible for a reason. God doesn't force anyone to remain unMarried. It leads to fornication that God hates. The Bible is where I get my BIT for fornication, so it's appropriate.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Priests and Pastors are the same thing. Pastors and Priests would be included in this verse:


1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; {of good...: or, modest}

You would have to prove me wrong Scripturally because that's how I see it.

---

From St Paul's first letter to the Corinthians 7:8 "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I." Yeah, Sola Scriptura.

---

This is what I mean by using scripture in bad faith. Like frodo pointed out, you left out the entire context of this passage. "Yeah, Sola Scriptura"?? It is very odd, your disrespect for the very Scripture that you profess to be God-breathed.

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Nothing "bad faith" about it nor is there any "disrespect". In fact, the opposite is true. There is no "out of context" Did not Paul speak plainly? It is you who takes Scripture out of context in the greater picture of the Bible and its interpretation. I value Scripture too highly to stand by mute while others such as you and Frodo twist, distort, and misrepresent Holy Scripture in your false Bibliolatry.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

So, then we can conclude that Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone in Christ, believing that He died and rose again for our sins.

Church, Baptism, Good Deeds, Communion/Sacraments do not have any part in Salvation. They are good things to do, but do not save.

Mary was not sinless

Jesus had Brothers

We are to pray only to God, not Mary or Saints.

Purgatory is not Biblical and therefore a false teaching

Priests and Ministers can and should be allowed to marry to avoid fornication

---

Mixed bag there; Salvation is indeed by grace through faith in Christ. No need for the rest of that paragraph. Agree that the items enumerated are not in themselves salvific. I understand the arguments for the sinlessness of Mary and concede it might be true, but don't view it as necessary one way or the others. You are wrong about requesting intercession from the communion of saints. Purgatory may be Biblical, or not. I'm agnostic about this. Priests and ministers should be allowed to marry. Your bit about fornication is unnecessary. BTW, interesting that you chose to include priests. I believe there is a difference between priests and ministers due to the sacerdotal nature of the priestly function.

---

Mary was not sinless. Only Christ was. It's not Biblical to say that she was. The Bible says for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I do not request intercession from communion of Saints. Christ is the Intercessor for all who believe. The Bible says that there is one God and one Mediator between God and Men, the Man Christ Jesus.

Purgatory is completely unBiblical. It's never even mentioned in the Bible. It's make believe.

Yes, Priests and Ministers should be allowed to marry. It's prescribed in the Bible for a reason. God doesn't force anyone to remain unMarried. It leads to fornication that God hates. The Bible is where I get my BIT for fornication, so it's appropriate.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Priests and Pastors are the same thing. Pastors and Priests would be included in this verse:


1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; {of good...: or, modest}

You would have to prove me wrong Scripturally because that's how I see it.

---

From St Paul's first letter to the Corinthians 7:8 "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I." Yeah, Sola Scriptura.

If Christ is the intercessor for all who believe, do you not request intercession from anyone ever? Do you never intercede for a friend? Yes, that again, but the point remains.

1Peter 1:6-7 and 1Corinthians 3:13-15 suggest trials of some sort using the imagery of fire. Micah 7:8-9 and Malachi 3:2-4 also speak of a need for judgment and refining fire. Early Christians inferred from these and other references the need for purgation. As I said, I am agnostic about this, but this small sample perfectly captures the tension between Sola Scriptura and Prima Scriptura.

Just curious if you viewed priests as different in any way from pastors or ministers regardless of job requirements. I certainly think they are not the same functionally.

---

Paul goes on to say that he spoke that NOT of commandment, meaning that God didn't tell him specifically to say that, but also, he said that if you DO marry, you aren't sinning. This includes Pastors or Priests. The criteria for them is that they are the "Husband of 1 wife", so they are free to marry if they want to.

I don't pray to dead people. No where in the Bible does ANYONE at any time pray to the dead. Christ is the intercessor and the only mediator between God and men. Yes I ask LIVING people to pray for me NOT the dead.

That fire is a future Judgement for Believers for REWARDS in heaven, NOT for the dead after they die. God is going to Judge a believers works in the fire for REWARDS, NOT for Salvation. That small sample is the Bemis Seat of Christ to the Believers only. The Great White Throne Judgement is for the Unbelievers and THEY are judged on their sins and cast into the Lake of fire.

I view a Priest and a Pastor as the same roll in this day and age. My Church has Pastors not Priests. I believe that Priests were unique to Israel and sacrificed animals to God. I disagree with calling the Minister a Priest in this age of Grace, I would call them Pastors.

---

Did not St Paul say it is good for those who are single to remain single? And why does he say to get married? So as to avoid sin if one can't control themselves. Further, he goes on to say that "he who is unmarried cares more for the things of the Lord" (v32). There's your context. FWIW, I have no problems with married clergy.

I don't "pray to dead people" either.

"That fire is a future Judgement for Believers for REWARDS in heaven". Hmmm... not sure what you mean. Fire as a judgement for rewards in heaven? Fire as future judgment sounds like purgatory to me. Again, I am agnostic about purgatory. It does sound like something I'd be happy to avoid.

I agree that those ordained outside the historic apostolic succession are ministers or pastors. Very curious about your views on what is happening during the Lord's Supper. I'm guessing you are a Memorialist? I believe in the Real Presence. From the Book of Common Prayer (Rite I -my preferred setting), the Holy Eucharist:

All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for
that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus
Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who
made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full,
perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for
the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy
Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that
his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again.

For in the night in which he was betrayed, he took bread;
and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave it to his
disciples, saying, "Take, eat, this is my Body, which is given
for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
Likewise, after supper, he took the cup; and when he had
given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink ye all of this;
for this is my Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for
you, and for many, for the remission of sins. Do this, as oft as
ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me."

Wherefore, O Lord and heavenly Father, according to the
institution of thy dearly beloved Son our Savior Jesus Christ,
we, thy humble servants, do celebrate and make here before
thy divine Majesty, with these thy holy gifts, which we now
offer unto thee, the memorial thy Son hath commanded us to
make; having in remembrance his blessed passion and precious
death, his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension;
rendering unto thee most hearty thanks for the innumerable
benefits procured unto us by the same.

And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to
hear us; and, of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to bless
and sanctify, with thy Word and Holy Spirit, these thy gifts
and creatures of bread and wine; that we, receiving them
according to thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ's holy institution,
in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers
of his most blessed Body and Blood.

And we earnestly desire thy fatherly goodness mercifully to
accept this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; most
humbly beseeching thee to grant that, by the merits and
death of thy Son Jesus Christ, and through faith in his blood,
we, and all thy whole Church, may obtain remission of our
sins, and all other benefits of his passion.

And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves,
our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and living
sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee that we, and all
others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may
worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son
Jesus Christ, be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction,
and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and
we in him.

And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins,
to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept
this our bounden duty and service, not weighing our merits,
but pardoning our offenses, through Jesus Christ our Lord;
By whom, and with whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost,
all honor and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world
without end. AMEN.

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

So, then we can conclude that Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone in Christ, believing that He died and rose again for our sins.

Church, Baptism, Good Deeds, Communion/Sacraments do not have any part in Salvation. They are good things to do, but do not save.

Mary was not sinless

Jesus had Brothers

We are to pray only to God, not Mary or Saints.

Purgatory is not Biblical and therefore a false teaching

Priests and Ministers can and should be allowed to marry to avoid fornication

---

Mixed bag there; Salvation is indeed by grace through faith in Christ. No need for the rest of that paragraph. Agree that the items enumerated are not in themselves salvific. I understand the arguments for the sinlessness of Mary and concede it might be true, but don't view it as necessary one way or the others. You are wrong about requesting intercession from the communion of saints. Purgatory may be Biblical, or not. I'm agnostic about this. Priests and ministers should be allowed to marry. Your bit about fornication is unnecessary. BTW, interesting that you chose to include priests. I believe there is a difference between priests and ministers due to the sacerdotal nature of the priestly function.

---

Mary was not sinless. Only Christ was. It's not Biblical to say that she was. The Bible says for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I do not request intercession from communion of Saints. Christ is the Intercessor for all who believe. The Bible says that there is one God and one Mediator between God and Men, the Man Christ Jesus.

Purgatory is completely unBiblical. It's never even mentioned in the Bible. It's make believe.

Yes, Priests and Ministers should be allowed to marry. It's prescribed in the Bible for a reason. God doesn't force anyone to remain unMarried. It leads to fornication that God hates. The Bible is where I get my BIT for fornication, so it's appropriate.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Priests and Pastors are the same thing. Pastors and Priests would be included in this verse:


1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; {of good...: or, modest}

You would have to prove me wrong Scripturally because that's how I see it.

---

From St Paul's first letter to the Corinthians 7:8 "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I." Yeah, Sola Scriptura.

If Christ is the intercessor for all who believe, do you not request intercession from anyone ever? Do you never intercede for a friend? Yes, that again, but the point remains.

1Peter 1:6-7 and 1Corinthians 3:13-15 suggest trials of some sort using the imagery of fire. Micah 7:8-9 and Malachi 3:2-4 also speak of a need for judgment and refining fire. Early Christians inferred from these and other references the need for purgation. As I said, I am agnostic about this, but this small sample perfectly captures the tension between Sola Scriptura and Prima Scriptura.

Just curious if you viewed priests as different in any way from pastors or ministers regardless of job requirements. I certainly think they are not the same functionally.

---

Paul goes on to say that he spoke that NOT of commandment, meaning that God didn't tell him specifically to say that, but also, he said that if you DO marry, you aren't sinning. This includes Pastors or Priests. The criteria for them is that they are the "Husband of 1 wife", so they are free to marry if they want to.

I don't pray to dead people. No where in the Bible does ANYONE at any time pray to the dead. Christ is the intercessor and the only mediator between God and men. Yes I ask LIVING people to pray for me NOT the dead.

That fire is a future Judgement for Believers for REWARDS in heaven, NOT for the dead after they die. God is going to Judge a believers works in the fire for REWARDS, NOT for Salvation. That small sample is the Bemis Seat of Christ to the Believers only. The Great White Throne Judgement is for the Unbelievers and THEY are judged on their sins and cast into the Lake of fire.

I view a Priest and a Pastor as the same roll in this day and age. My Church has Pastors not Priests. I believe that Priests were unique to Israel and sacrificed animals to God. I disagree with calling the Minister a Priest in this age of Grace, I would call them Pastors.

---

Did not St Paul say it is good for those who are single to remain single? And why does he say to get married? So as to avoid sin if one can't control themselves. Further, he goes on to say that "he who is unmarried cares more for the things of the Lord" (v32). There's your context. FWIW, I have no problems with married clergy.

I don't "pray to dead people" either.

"That fire is a future Judgement for Believers for REWARDS in heaven". Hmmm... not sure what you mean. Fire as a judgement for rewards in heaven? Fire as future judgment sounds like purgatory to me. Again, I am agnostic about purgatory. It does sound like something I'd be happy to avoid.

I agree that those ordained outside the historic apostolic succession are ministers or pastors. Very curious about your views on what is happening during the Lord's Supper. I'm guessing you are a Memorialist? I believe in the Real Presence. From the Book of Common Prayer (Rite I -my preferred setting), the Holy Eucharist:

All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for
that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus
Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who
made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full,
perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for
the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy
Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that
his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again.

For in the night in which he was betrayed, he took bread;
and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave it to his
disciples, saying, "Take, eat, this is my Body, which is given
for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
Likewise, after supper, he took the cup; and when he had
given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink ye all of this;
for this is my Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for
you, and for many, for the remission of sins. Do this, as oft as
ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me."

Wherefore, O Lord and heavenly Father, according to the
institution of thy dearly beloved Son our Savior Jesus Christ,
we, thy humble servants, do celebrate and make here before
thy divine Majesty, with these thy holy gifts, which we now
offer unto thee, the memorial thy Son hath commanded us to
make; having in remembrance his blessed passion and precious
death, his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension;
rendering unto thee most hearty thanks for the innumerable
benefits procured unto us by the same.

And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to
hear us; and, of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to bless
and sanctify, with thy Word and Holy Spirit, these thy gifts
and creatures of bread and wine; that we, receiving them
according to thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ's holy institution,
in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers
of his most blessed Body and Blood.

And we earnestly desire thy fatherly goodness mercifully to
accept this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; most
humbly beseeching thee to grant that, by the merits and
death of thy Son Jesus Christ, and through faith in his blood,
we, and all thy whole Church, may obtain remission of our
sins, and all other benefits of his passion.

And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves,
our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and living
sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee that we, and all
others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may
worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son
Jesus Christ, be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction,
and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and
we in him.

And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins,
to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept
this our bounden duty and service, not weighing our merits,
but pardoning our offenses, through Jesus Christ our Lord;
By whom, and with whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost,
all honor and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world
without end. AMEN.

---

The following passage is referring to BELIEVERS in Christ and the Judgement for REWARDS. Notice that it says of the guy who didn't have any rewards that He Himself shall be saved. That's because we are not saved by Works, we are saved by Grace through Faith alone. The FIRE is referring to Judgement of a believers works for Christ, but it's not for Salvation, it's for REWARDS.

1Co 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Communion, The Lord's Supper is simply a Memorial, symbols of the Body and Blood of Christ, yes. If you took an ultra sound image of the bread and wine in the stomach, they would remain bread and wine in the stomach. They do not turn into the Body and blood of Christ. What Christ said was a Spiritual meaning, not a physical one. It also has no part in Salvation, because it is a Memorial to those who are already saved.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

So, then we can conclude that Salvation is by Grace through Faith alone in Christ, believing that He died and rose again for our sins.

Church, Baptism, Good Deeds, Communion/Sacraments do not have any part in Salvation. They are good things to do, but do not save.

Mary was not sinless

Jesus had Brothers

We are to pray only to God, not Mary or Saints.

Purgatory is not Biblical and therefore a false teaching

Priests and Ministers can and should be allowed to marry to avoid fornication

---

Mixed bag there; Salvation is indeed by grace through faith in Christ. No need for the rest of that paragraph. Agree that the items enumerated are not in themselves salvific. I understand the arguments for the sinlessness of Mary and concede it might be true, but don't view it as necessary one way or the others. You are wrong about requesting intercession from the communion of saints. Purgatory may be Biblical, or not. I'm agnostic about this. Priests and ministers should be allowed to marry. Your bit about fornication is unnecessary. BTW, interesting that you chose to include priests. I believe there is a difference between priests and ministers due to the sacerdotal nature of the priestly function.

---

Mary was not sinless. Only Christ was. It's not Biblical to say that she was. The Bible says for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I do not request intercession from communion of Saints. Christ is the Intercessor for all who believe. The Bible says that there is one God and one Mediator between God and Men, the Man Christ Jesus.

Purgatory is completely unBiblical. It's never even mentioned in the Bible. It's make believe.

Yes, Priests and Ministers should be allowed to marry. It's prescribed in the Bible for a reason. God doesn't force anyone to remain unMarried. It leads to fornication that God hates. The Bible is where I get my BIT for fornication, so it's appropriate.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Priests and Pastors are the same thing. Pastors and Priests would be included in this verse:


1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; {of good...: or, modest}

You would have to prove me wrong Scripturally because that's how I see it.

---

From St Paul's first letter to the Corinthians 7:8 "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I." Yeah, Sola Scriptura.

If Christ is the intercessor for all who believe, do you not request intercession from anyone ever? Do you never intercede for a friend? Yes, that again, but the point remains.

1Peter 1:6-7 and 1Corinthians 3:13-15 suggest trials of some sort using the imagery of fire. Micah 7:8-9 and Malachi 3:2-4 also speak of a need for judgment and refining fire. Early Christians inferred from these and other references the need for purgation. As I said, I am agnostic about this, but this small sample perfectly captures the tension between Sola Scriptura and Prima Scriptura.

Just curious if you viewed priests as different in any way from pastors or ministers regardless of job requirements. I certainly think they are not the same functionally.

---

Paul goes on to say that he spoke that NOT of commandment, meaning that God didn't tell him specifically to say that, but also, he said that if you DO marry, you aren't sinning. This includes Pastors or Priests. The criteria for them is that they are the "Husband of 1 wife", so they are free to marry if they want to.

I don't pray to dead people. No where in the Bible does ANYONE at any time pray to the dead. Christ is the intercessor and the only mediator between God and men. Yes I ask LIVING people to pray for me NOT the dead.

That fire is a future Judgement for Believers for REWARDS in heaven, NOT for the dead after they die. God is going to Judge a believers works in the fire for REWARDS, NOT for Salvation. That small sample is the Bemis Seat of Christ to the Believers only. The Great White Throne Judgement is for the Unbelievers and THEY are judged on their sins and cast into the Lake of fire.

I view a Priest and a Pastor as the same roll in this day and age. My Church has Pastors not Priests. I believe that Priests were unique to Israel and sacrificed animals to God. I disagree with calling the Minister a Priest in this age of Grace, I would call them Pastors.

---

Did not St Paul say it is good for those who are single to remain single? And why does he say to get married? So as to avoid sin if one can't control themselves. Further, he goes on to say that "he who is unmarried cares more for the things of the Lord" (v32). There's your context. FWIW, I have no problems with married clergy.

I don't "pray to dead people" either.

"That fire is a future Judgement for Believers for REWARDS in heaven". Hmmm... not sure what you mean. Fire as a judgement for rewards in heaven? Fire as future judgment sounds like purgatory to me. Again, I am agnostic about purgatory. It does sound like something I'd be happy to avoid.

I agree that those ordained outside the historic apostolic succession are ministers or pastors. Very curious about your views on what is happening during the Lord's Supper. I'm guessing you are a Memorialist? I believe in the Real Presence. From the Book of Common Prayer (Rite I -my preferred setting), the Holy Eucharist:

All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for
that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus
Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who
made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full,
perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for
the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy
Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that
his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again.

For in the night in which he was betrayed, he took bread;
and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave it to his
disciples, saying, "Take, eat, this is my Body, which is given
for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
Likewise, after supper, he took the cup; and when he had
given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink ye all of this;
for this is my Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for
you, and for many, for the remission of sins. Do this, as oft as
ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me."

Wherefore, O Lord and heavenly Father, according to the
institution of thy dearly beloved Son our Savior Jesus Christ,
we, thy humble servants, do celebrate and make here before
thy divine Majesty, with these thy holy gifts, which we now
offer unto thee, the memorial thy Son hath commanded us to
make; having in remembrance his blessed passion and precious
death, his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension;
rendering unto thee most hearty thanks for the innumerable
benefits procured unto us by the same.

And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to
hear us; and, of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to bless
and sanctify, with thy Word and Holy Spirit, these thy gifts
and creatures of bread and wine; that we, receiving them
according to thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ's holy institution,
in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers
of his most blessed Body and Blood.

And we earnestly desire thy fatherly goodness mercifully to
accept this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; most
humbly beseeching thee to grant that, by the merits and
death of thy Son Jesus Christ, and through faith in his blood,
we, and all thy whole Church, may obtain remission of our
sins, and all other benefits of his passion.

And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves,
our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and living
sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee that we, and all
others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may
worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son
Jesus Christ, be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction,
and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and
we in him.

And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins,
to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept
this our bounden duty and service, not weighing our merits,
but pardoning our offenses, through Jesus Christ our Lord;
By whom, and with whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost,
all honor and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world
without end. AMEN.

---

The following passage is referring to BELIEVERS in Christ and the Judgement for REWARDS. Notice that it says of the guy who didn't have any rewards that He Himself shall be saved. That's because we are not saved by Works, we are saved by Grace through Faith alone. The FIRE is referring to Judgement of a believers works for Christ, but it's not for Salvation, it's for REWARDS.

1Co 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Communion, The Lord's Supper is simply a Memorial, symbols of the Body and Blood of Christ, yes. If you took an ultra sound image of the bread and wine in the stomach, they would remain bread and wine in the stomach. They do not turn into the Body and blood of Christ. What Christ said was a Spiritual meaning, not a physical one. It also has no part in Salvation, because it is a Memorial to those who are already saved.

---

Agree that purgation as a process is not for salvation. Your interpretation is just one of many and I don't believe it's possible to know which is correct. Therefore, believe what you will as it is adiaphora.

Always appreciate the irony when those of a more literalist bent consider the Eucharist "simply a Memorial". Your comment about an ultra sound completely misses the mark. The body and blood of Christ are truly present under the appearance of bread and wine. How this is so I am content to leave as a mystery of Jesus' own doing. It is not salvific in itself. That is not the point. The Eucharist is celebrated as a proclamation of salvation and for the strengthening of faith in the hearts of believers.


32 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
34 "Sir," they said, "always give us this bread."
35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"
43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. St John 6

There is no purgatory. The concept is unBiblical. It is VERY possible to know which interpretation is correct if you just READ the passage for what it actually says.

JESUS is the one who actually interpreted it. HE is the one who said it is SPIRIT: I believe Jesus.

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So I LITERALLY believe what Jesus ACTUALLY said.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

There is no purgatory. The concept is unBiblical. It is VERY possible to know which interpretation is correct if you just READ the passage for what it actually says.

JESUS is the one who actually interpreted it. HE is the one who said it is SPIRIT: I believe Jesus.

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So I LITERALLY believe what Jesus ACTUALLY said.

---

There may not be a purgatory as you imagine it, but there is likely some form of purgation as multiple passages indicate. Is is VERY possible to believe you "know", but you truly don't know. I have READ the passage and what I believe it actually says is open to interpretation and in no way definite. The concept is certainly Biblical. When you say "unBiblical", what you really MEAN is you INTERPRET it differently.

So you don't LITERALLY believe what Jesus ACTUALLY said when he said the following?


"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." St Luke 22:19-20

or:

"22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." St Mark 14:22-24

or:

"26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." St Mathew 26:26-27

or:

48 "I am that bread of life.
49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof*, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." St John 6:48-58

or:

"23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." 1 Corinthians 11:23-27

I believe Jesus.