BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Got an answer yet to my question? Apparently you must not have much conviction over your claim about evolution if you're unwilling to answer such a simple question.

---

I already answered your question.

---

It wasn't your question.

---

Who's was it then?

---

Do you honestly not know how to tell? Does it not say who I was replying to in the upper right corner? And when you log in, aren't the responses to your comments marked with a blue highlight?

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:13-16

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:13-16

---

I see nothing in those verses to support your assertion.

---

Wangchung said:

---

James 2:14
Faith without works is dead.

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

James 2:14
Faith without works is dead.

---

the thief on the cross completed no other work than to believe..

He was invited and believed in Jesus.. that is sufficient.

Now, our belief is shown by our "works" not just the things we do but how we do them

Jesus gave us two commands, love him and love others as we love him..

Many stumble on the second one

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:13-16

---

I see nothing in those verses to support your assertion.

---

When your spiritual eyes are closed, you won't see it even when Jesus says it.

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:13-16

---

I see nothing in those verses to support your assertion.

---

When your spiritual eyes are closed, you won't see it even when Jesus says it.

---

Since you believe that your Spiritual eyes are better than mine, explain the verse in context and how it makes your point.

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:13-16

---

I see nothing in those verses to support your assertion.

---

When your spiritual eyes are closed, you won't see it even when Jesus says it.

---

Since you believe that your Spiritual eyes are better than mine, explain the verse in context and how it makes your point.

---

OK, let's review. Remember, the words in bold below are those of Christ:

"You are the salt of the earth."

Jesus is clearly speaking to His followers here.

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

This is a serious warning, that despite being followers of Christ, these people may lose what matters, and so become worthless, to be "thrown out and trampled underfoot"

That is a very important warning which none of us should ignore!

Christ repeats the message in another way, saying

"You are the light of the world. "

Again, this can only be speaking to His believers.

"A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. "

This is the same message as before, but given a positive emphasis. We are meant to testify to Christ through the way we work. Our works are not meritorious in our salvation, but they are required of us through our love for Christ.

Christ goes on:

"In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Confirming our good deeds show the character of our new life. If we believe, we will produce good works.

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

I am saying - as Jesus Himself said - that there are some who imagine that saying they are Christian and follow Christ means they don't have any duty beyond that.

Belief, like all parts of life, needs nourishment and growth, or it dies. What you do as a Christian drives whether you really ARE a Christian.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

I am saying - as Jesus Himself said - that there are some who imagine that saying they are Christian and follow Christ means they don't have any duty beyond that.

Belief, like all parts of life, needs nourishment and growth, or it dies. What you do as a Christian drives whether you really ARE a Christian.

---

We're not talking about Christian duty, we're talking about salvation. Are you saying that if a truly believing Christian fails to adequately fulfill his duty as a follower, he will not be saved? Again, how do you square this with "whoever believes in him will have everlasting life"? There was a question there that you did not answer.

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

I am saying - as Jesus Himself said - that there are some who imagine that saying they are Christian and follow Christ means they don't have any duty beyond that.

Belief, like all parts of life, needs nourishment and growth, or it dies. What you do as a Christian drives whether you really ARE a Christian.

---

We're not talking about Christian duty, we're talking about salvation. Are you saying that if a truly believing Christian fails to adequately fulfill his duty as a follower, he will not be saved? Again, how do you square this with "whoever believes in him will have everlasting life"? There was a question there that you did not answer.

---

Of course I answered, you just don't like that we have duties beyond checking a box.

Anything we can receive in this life, we can lose. IF you believe is demonstrated by what you do.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

I am saying - as Jesus Himself said - that there are some who imagine that saying they are Christian and follow Christ means they don't have any duty beyond that.

Belief, like all parts of life, needs nourishment and growth, or it dies. What you do as a Christian drives whether you really ARE a Christian.

---

We're not talking about Christian duty, we're talking about salvation. Are you saying that if a truly believing Christian fails to adequately fulfill his duty as a follower, he will not be saved? Again, how do you square this with "whoever believes in him will have everlasting life"? There was a question there that you did not answer.

---

Of course I answered, you just don't like that we have duties beyond checking a box.

Anything we can receive in this life, we can lose. IF you believe is demonstrated by what you do.

---

When did I say that I don't like that we have duties, and that I only believe in "checking a box"?? You spend a lot of time and energy creating your own boogeyman to argue with and get angry at.

So, to be clear, you're saying that someone who truly believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation, but they continue to struggle with sin and fail to produce any works, it means their faith wasn't real - they didn't really believe, so they go to hell?

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---

I am saying - as Jesus Himself said - that there are some who imagine that saying they are Christian and follow Christ means they don't have any duty beyond that.

Belief, like all parts of life, needs nourishment and growth, or it dies. What you do as a Christian drives whether you really ARE a Christian.

---

We're not talking about Christian duty, we're talking about salvation. Are you saying that if a truly believing Christian fails to adequately fulfill his duty as a follower, he will not be saved? Again, how do you square this with "whoever believes in him will have everlasting life"? There was a question there that you did not answer.

---

Of course I answered, you just don't like that we have duties beyond checking a box.

Anything we can receive in this life, we can lose. IF you believe is demonstrated by what you do.

---

When did I say that I don't like that we have duties, and that I only believe in "checking a box"?? You spend a lot of time and energy creating your own boogeyman to argue with and get angry at.

So, to be clear, you're saying that someone who truly believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation, but they continue to struggle with sin and fail to produce any works, it means their faith wasn't real - they didn't really believe, so they go to hell?

---

I quoted Christ, then you and Frodo got angry.

You also seem to have great trouble taking what I wrote as is, instead adding things I didn't say so you can ignore it.

But I am glad you admit we are accountable for what we do with what God gives us.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, to be clear, you're saying that someone who truly believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation, but they continue to struggle with sin and fail to produce any works, it means their faith wasn't real - they didn't really believe, so they go to hell?

---

Realitybites said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So, to be clear, you're saying that someone who truly believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation, but they continue to struggle with sin and fail to produce any works, it means their faith wasn't real - they didn't really believe, so they go to hell?

---

On what basis do you judge that someone who produces NO works truly believes Jesus given Christ's words in Luke 11:13? According to Him, even evil people bear some fruit. So why should we accept a premise that the completely barren tree is saved by faith?

All of us struggle with sin, Saint Paul admitted as much in scripture. That is a separate issue, and an important one. The turning away from the life and practices of the church of the first century by western Christianity has made this struggle much more difficult for its practitioners. By turning the Christian life into a series of events where you meet at church anywhere from once (for most) to three times (pretty much only if you are an IFB now) a week and are left to your own devices the rest of the week it divorces secular life from religious observance and sets the stage for failure.

Finally with regards to sin. I think - I know I did for much of my life as violating the law. You're speeding, you get a ticket. And in one sense that is true, in the specific sense of what you have done. But a broader vision of it is sin is missing the mark. "Be ye Holy as I am Holy." So I have come to see sin as taking your rifle out into the yard and instead of putting a nice tight grouping in the middle of the target you empty the magazine spraying its contents all over the yard and neighborhood. That I think gives a fuller picture of the harm and chaos sin causes throughout creation.

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

I'm really not interested in yet another series of useless arguments, BTD.

But let's be clear. I have always given you answers. They don't cease to exist just because you want to ignore them.

I am not at all angry, but you are not being honest at all on this point, and you know it. It won't help you to continue this kind of behavior, and I write this because I do think that in many other ways, you try to do what is right and care about your faith.

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

... and there it is. Denial, hostility, refusal to advance the discussion, all so you can feed your ego.

I have always answered you. That may change in future, since you never show any Christian behavior in return.

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Seriously, why do you do this over and over? I write in these forums to learn how people think, and to offer help where I can.

You genuinely seem to just pick fights, BTD.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

---

How many sins do you have to commit before you lose it? Salvation isn't by works, it is by Faith Alone.

---

One sin is enough, if you lose your faith.

---

So you're saying it's ultimately dependent on the presence (or lack thereof) of faith, not on works.

So....what exactly are you saying that is different from frodo?

---

Frodo has implied, perhaps unintentionally, that believing is all we need to do. Take the gift and move on.

But accepting Christ means accepting Him as your Lord. Christ made clear over and over that we need to do more than just say some magic phrase or password. If we have accepted Christ we will show fruit in our works.

This is why Christ's warning is so important. Let me post it here again:

"But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Christ is clearly warning us not to take our Salvation for granted. And yet, sadly many who call themselves 'Christian' act in ways that are very much in the character of their former nature, not of a life in Christ.

---

So are you saying that someone can truly believe in their heart that they are a sinner, and they believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation.....but if they don't produce a sufficient amount of works, they WON'T be saved? How would you square this with what Jesus said, that "whoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life"?

---