How To Get To Heaven When You Die

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BUDOS
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Dude, I realize that I may be spitting against the wind; however, I am only trying to make the point that there may be some participating in this discussion who might be more apt to reflect upon your responses and their validity if you were not so often inclined to be in assassin mode.

IMO, you often make good points substantiated by good reasoning, including a few I don't fully agree with at this time. IMO, Jesus saved such a tone only when addressing the Pharisees, Scribe and Sadducees, and deservedly so.

Some on this thread apparently would classify you as a bit too self righteous. To those I would caution a few of them to look in a mirror, as indicated below:

Those who condemn the self-righteous for the sake of self-discovery do so with ironic self-righteousness."
Oldbear83
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There is a sharp divide between Roman Catholics and Protestants over how Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, should be treated. There are some who believe Mary is a very important person, almost comparable to her Son our Redeemer, while others worry that such an opinion makes too much of Mary, even to the point of Idolatry. It's difficult to have a productive discussion on the issue, as opinions are strong and sharp.

For my part, I want to be open-minded about customs of Christian groups outside my own, but being reasonable depends on having reason to consider a position the right one. That is, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and few claims in Christian theology are as extraordinary as claiming special rank for a human, even Mary.

The first claim that needs addressing is whether Mary was 'sinless', as many Marians claim. If I understand the argument correctly, the idea is that for the Son of God to be born on this Earth, He could not be part of evil but immaculate, which is the reason why a virgin birth was needed. However, there are problems with that assumption, principally the reason Christ came to be the Messiah in the first place.

Humanity needs Salvation because even if we were to lead a perfect life, the sin of Adam and Eve, known as the Original Sin, is in us, all of us, all down the generations. Exodus Chapter 29, for example, makes clear that daily sacrifices must be made by the priests for seven days in row in order that God would speak to the nation of Israel (Ex 29:42-43). If it were possible for God to simply create a condition where someone was sinless, even if that purpose was to expedite the birth of Christ, it would prove that Christ's atonement was not needed. God could simply choose to create sinless people. Instead, it was absolutely necessary that Christ be presented as a "sacrifice of atonement" (Romans 3:25) in order for us to receive the Lord in faith.

Consequently, it is clearly not the case that Mary was sinless, as no human except for Christ Himself was so. I think Scripture gives us better guidance on Mary's condition she was not sinless but was blameless.

"Blameless" shows up many times in Scripture. It's used to describe Noah (Gen 6:9), Abraham (Gen 17:1), David (1 Sam 22:24), and Job (Job 1:1), for example. This is important to the point, because all of these men sinned at some time, yet God counted them blameless because they were reconciled to Him.

Mary is described in a manner consistent with being counted blameless. In Matthew, an angel explained to Joseph "do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 1:20). In Luke, an angel tells Mary "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God" (Luke 1:30). You can see from both passages that Mary is someone who has pleased the Lord, but in no place is she referred to as sinless.

Now regarding Mary's station in things, consider that in the Gospel of Mark, she is not mentioned until the third chapter, and then because she sends people in to where Jesus is teaching to have him come out to her. This is where Christ says ""Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. "Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (Mark 3:33-35)

The Gospel of John does not even mention Mary the Mother of Jesus. That's not disrespecting her, but if she was a person so important that she should be ranked alongside the Messiah, well, we would surely have seen more in Gospels about her.

I understand that tradition in the Roman Catholic Church plays a prominent role, however that does not create authority in the absence of Scripture.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
xfrodobagginsx
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Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ:

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ
xfrodobagginsx
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Sorry, it was having errors.
xfrodobagginsx
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Errors

xfrodobagginsx
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Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ
Coke Bear
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

EVERY person from the seed of Adam and Eve is in the line of original sin and inherits original sin. I don't even see how this is even a question.

The only way Mary could be sinless is if she did not come from Eve's seed - and if that's the case, then Jesus could NOT have come from her, because God specifically stated that it would be from Eve's seed that Jesus would come and "crush the head of the serpent".

It's your inability to understand/accept such basic things that is so troubling.
Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin from the first moment of her existence. This grace was unique and permanent, ensuring she was in a state of sanctifying grace throughout her life.

Are you saying that God cannot give that gift?

By your "line of original sin logic", Jesus would have to have original sin because he was in the same line.
BUDOS
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Not being as knowledgeable about the Bible as you guys, I realize the following may sound stupid, but perhaps you can help me understand how someone can sin without committing a sinful act either in thought or physical act. Sorry if this sounds stupid but I have been learning some things, especially church history and some new resources.
xfrodobagginsx
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BUDOS said:

Not being as knowledgeable about the Bible as you guys, I realize the following may sound stupid, but perhaps you can help me understand how someone can sin without committing a sinful act either in thought or physical act. Sorry if this sounds stupid but I have been learning some things, especially church history and some new resources.
There is no stupid question. Don't be afraid to ask ANY sincere question. That's what this thread is supposed to be about, although lots of debate also happens here.

1Adam being the first man had the DNA of every subsequent human being inside of himself from the beginning.
2)Adam sinned before reproducing any children.
3) When Adam sinned, it changed his very nature from an innocent, sinless creature into a sinful one. It permeated every part of his being.
4) Therefore, when he had children from then on, he passed his sin nature down to every person that came after him.

Referring to Adam here:

Romans 5:12 (KJV)

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The good news is that Just As Adam passed his sin nature on all men, Jesus Christ died rose again, Sacrificing Himself for our sins, so that ALL men might be saved, But only those who apply it to their lives will be saved. This is because God won't force anyone to serve Him.


1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV)

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If you read this first post, it explains this in more detail. God bless and feel free to ask me anything.
BUDOS
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Thanks. Therefore, according to this reasoning, since Christ was born of a virgin, He was able to spiritually break that cycle. So, within that context that allows us to be spiritually free from sin, via believing in Him and then serving Him by striving to utilize our spiritual gifts for His Kingdom? Did I go too far or not far enough?
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Coke Bear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

EVERY person from the seed of Adam and Eve is in the line of original sin and inherits original sin. I don't even see how this is even a question.

The only way Mary could be sinless is if she did not come from Eve's seed - and if that's the case, then Jesus could NOT have come from her, because God specifically stated that it would be from Eve's seed that Jesus would come and "crush the head of the serpent".

It's your inability to understand/accept such basic things that is so troubling.
Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin from the first moment of her existence. This grace was unique and permanent, ensuring she was in a state of sanctifying grace throughout her life.

Are you saying that God cannot give that gift?

By your "line of original sin logic", Jesus would have to have original sin because he was in the same line.
This is a completely made up belief. There is nothing whatsoever in Scripture or in the early church to support such nonsense. The argument that "if God could do it, then it's true" is so mind-numbingly irresponsible and ignorant that it defies comment. You seriously don't think it's a good idea to build an entire system of belief and worship on such ridiculous logic, do you?

No, Jesus would NOT have to have original sin, because he did not only come from the seed of Adam and Eve - he also came from the seed of divinity. It's a NEW line. That's why he's the "new Adam".
BUDOS
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And the Greek indicates BTD's comments in that last paragraph are correct. How else would we define a "virgin birth "?
xfrodobagginsx
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BUDOS said:

Thanks. Therefore, according to this reasoning, since Christ was born of a virgin, He was able to spiritually break that cycle. So, within that context that allows us to be spiritually free from sin, via believing in Him and then serving Him by striving to utilize our spiritual gifts for His Kingdom? Did I go too far or not far enough?
Yes, because He:

1) Was born of a Virgin (Woman) He did not inherit the sin nature of Adam. We inherit our sin nature from our Father. Jesus's Father is God the Father. The Holy Spirit conceived the Baby.

2) Lived a perfect, sinless life, unlike any other person who has ever lived. He only qualifies for this reason. Sinful man cannot die for sinful man and redeem their sins.

3) Is God in the Flesh, because only God could have withstood and over come the pressure that Christ endured to sin or give up. satan is very crafty and also powerful, but God is stronger than he.

When we place our Faith in Christ, we put on Christ (Like a Garment) as such we put on His righteousness. His Sacrifice cleans us from all sin. it's actually a legal transferring, He took our sins upon Himself on the cross and we take on His righteousness in the eyes of God when we trust Him and what He did.


Galatians 3:27

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

This Baptism is NOT water Baptism, but rather a Holy Spirit Baptism:

[url=https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Corinthians-12-13/][/url]1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

We are saved by Grace through Faith without works. No one will brag (boast) that they were good enough to be there.

Ephesians 2:88

.For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But it goes on to say that we are created UNTO good works (to do or so that we will do good works)

Ephesians 8:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So, Yes we are saved by Grace (God's Work) through our Faith (Trust in Him, Believing Him) and the works we do as the result of our Salvation are for Eternal Rewards in heaven. Those rewards are given at the Judgement Seat of Christ:

12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

"If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward....

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss...

But he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire..

He didn't lose his salvation, but he lost Eternal Rewards.
Fre3dombear
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Coke Bear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

EVERY person from the seed of Adam and Eve is in the line of original sin and inherits original sin. I don't even see how this is even a question.

The only way Mary could be sinless is if she did not come from Eve's seed - and if that's the case, then Jesus could NOT have come from her, because God specifically stated that it would be from Eve's seed that Jesus would come and "crush the head of the serpent".

It's your inability to understand/accept such basic things that is so troubling.
Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin from the first moment of her existence. This grace was unique and permanent, ensuring she was in a state of sanctifying grace throughout her life.

Are you saying that God cannot give that gift?

By your "line of original sin logic", Jesus would have to have original sin because he was in the same line.
This is a completely made up belief. There is nothing whatsoever in Scripture or in the early church to support such nonsense. The argument that "if God could do it, then it's true" is so mind-numbingly irresponsible and ignorant that it defies comment. You seriously don't think it's a good idea to build an entire system of belief and worship on such ridiculous logic, do you?

No, Jesus would NOT have to have original sin, because he did not only come from the seed of Adam and Eve - he also came from the seed of divinity. It's a NEW line. That's why he's the "new Adam".


There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible. Especially if you study the Greek and the words used to describe her.

Additionally, Are you saying Mary was basically just like your mom but God just really liked her and asked if she would birth God - the Word made flesh?

Mary of course plays a prominent role in Revelation as well.
Oldbear83
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"There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible."

Please show the Scripture saying Mary was without sin. I looked but what I found indicates something else.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Fre3dombear
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Oldbear83 said:

"There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible."

Please show the Scripture saying Mary was without sin. I looked but what I found indicates something else.


This article summarizes much of the logic Catholics would use for this belief with various scripture chapter and verses in support thereof. Other sources may prevail but I share this for simplicity and further debate / argument.

This topic is an interesting one but not one that would necessarily have an impact on one's eternal salvation.

Much like, for example, the apparition and tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe. If one has studied it it would likely be near impossible to not believe it's validity, but if one chooses not to or suggests nah that's just a bunch if mularkey, it likely in and of itself will not result in one's eternal damnation. Though one may question one's logic and reasoning abilities and maybe rightfully so.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin
Oldbear83
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Fre3dombear said:

Oldbear83 said:

"There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible."

Please show the Scripture saying Mary was without sin. I looked but what I found indicates something else.


This article summarizes much of the logic Catholics would use for this belief with various scripture chapter and verses in support thereof. Other sources may prevail but I share this for simplicity and further debate / argument.

This topic is an interesting one but not one that would necessarily have an impact on one's eternal salvation.

Much like, for example, the apparition and tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe. If one has studied it it would likely be near impossible to not believe it's validity, but if one chooses not to or suggests nah that's just a bunch if mularkey, it likely in and of itself will not result in one's eternal damnation. Though one may question one's logic and reasoning abilities and maybe rightfully so.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin
So, no actual scripture?
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Oldbear83
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Oldbear83 said:

There is a sharp divide between Roman Catholics and Protestants over how Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, should be treated. There are some who believe Mary is a very important person, almost comparable to her Son our Redeemer, while others worry that such an opinion makes too much of Mary, even to the point of Idolatry. It's difficult to have a productive discussion on the issue, as opinions are strong and sharp.

For my part, I want to be open-minded about customs of Christian groups outside my own, but being reasonable depends on having reason to consider a position the right one. That is, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and few claims in Christian theology are as extraordinary as claiming special rank for a human, even Mary.

The first claim that needs addressing is whether Mary was 'sinless', as many Marians claim. If I understand the argument correctly, the idea is that for the Son of God to be born on this Earth, He could not be part of evil but immaculate, which is the reason why a virgin birth was needed. However, there are problems with that assumption, principally the reason Christ came to be the Messiah in the first place.

Humanity needs Salvation because even if we were to lead a perfect life, the sin of Adam and Eve, known as the Original Sin, is in us, all of us, all down the generations. Exodus Chapter 29, for example, makes clear that daily sacrifices must be made by the priests for seven days in row in order that God would speak to the nation of Israel (Ex 29:42-43). If it were possible for God to simply create a condition where someone was sinless, even if that purpose was to expedite the birth of Christ, it would prove that Christ's atonement was not needed. God could simply choose to create sinless people. Instead, it was absolutely necessary that Christ be presented as a "sacrifice of atonement" (Romans 3:25) in order for us to receive the Lord in faith.

Consequently, it is clearly not the case that Mary was sinless, as no human except for Christ Himself was so. I think Scripture gives us better guidance on Mary's condition she was not sinless but was blameless.

"Blameless" shows up many times in Scripture. It's used to describe Noah (Gen 6:9), Abraham (Gen 17:1), David (1 Sam 22:24), and Job (Job 1:1), for example. This is important to the point, because all of these men sinned at some time, yet God counted them blameless because they were reconciled to Him.

Mary is described in a manner consistent with being counted blameless. In Matthew, an angel explained to Joseph "do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 1:20). In Luke, an angel tells Mary "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God" (Luke 1:30). You can see from both passages that Mary is someone who has pleased the Lord, but in no place is she referred to as sinless.

Now regarding Mary's station in things, consider that in the Gospel of Mark, she is not mentioned until the third chapter, and then because she sends people in to where Jesus is teaching to have him come out to her. This is where Christ says ""Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. "Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (Mark 3:33-35)

The Gospel of John does not even mention Mary the Mother of Jesus. That's not disrespecting her, but if she was a person so important that she should be ranked alongside the Messiah, well, we would surely have seen more in Gospels about her.

I understand that tradition in the Roman Catholic Church plays a prominent role, however that does not create authority in the absence of Scripture.

FreedomBear, I would like your response to my prior post, please.

Coke Bear and CurtPenn as well, if they would be so kind.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Fre3dombear
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Oldbear83 said:

Fre3dombear said:

Oldbear83 said:

"There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible."

Please show the Scripture saying Mary was without sin. I looked but what I found indicates something else.


This article summarizes much of the logic Catholics would use for this belief with various scripture chapter and verses in support thereof. Other sources may prevail but I share this for simplicity and further debate / argument.

This topic is an interesting one but not one that would necessarily have an impact on one's eternal salvation.

Much like, for example, the apparition and tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe. If one has studied it it would likely be near impossible to not believe it's validity, but if one chooses not to or suggests nah that's just a bunch if mularkey, it likely in and of itself will not result in one's eternal damnation. Though one may question one's logic and reasoning abilities and maybe rightfully so.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin
So, no actual scripture?


Huh? Many scriptures are noted in the article. Did you want me to summarize the summary of the topic for you? Or am I misunderstanding.

There's not a scripture that says "Mary was without original sin" no more than there's a scripture that says "don't drink alcohol" or countless other examples.
Fre3dombear
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Oldbear83 said:

Oldbear83 said:

There is a sharp divide between Roman Catholics and Protestants over how Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, should be treated. There are some who believe Mary is a very important person, almost comparable to her Son our Redeemer, while others worry that such an opinion makes too much of Mary, even to the point of Idolatry. It's difficult to have a productive discussion on the issue, as opinions are strong and sharp.

For my part, I want to be open-minded about customs of Christian groups outside my own, but being reasonable depends on having reason to consider a position the right one. That is, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and few claims in Christian theology are as extraordinary as claiming special rank for a human, even Mary.

The first claim that needs addressing is whether Mary was 'sinless', as many Marians claim. If I understand the argument correctly, the idea is that for the Son of God to be born on this Earth, He could not be part of evil but immaculate, which is the reason why a virgin birth was needed. However, there are problems with that assumption, principally the reason Christ came to be the Messiah in the first place.

Humanity needs Salvation because even if we were to lead a perfect life, the sin of Adam and Eve, known as the Original Sin, is in us, all of us, all down the generations. Exodus Chapter 29, for example, makes clear that daily sacrifices must be made by the priests for seven days in row in order that God would speak to the nation of Israel (Ex 29:42-43). If it were possible for God to simply create a condition where someone was sinless, even if that purpose was to expedite the birth of Christ, it would prove that Christ's atonement was not needed. God could simply choose to create sinless people. Instead, it was absolutely necessary that Christ be presented as a "sacrifice of atonement" (Romans 3:25) in order for us to receive the Lord in faith.

Consequently, it is clearly not the case that Mary was sinless, as no human except for Christ Himself was so. I think Scripture gives us better guidance on Mary's condition she was not sinless but was blameless.

"Blameless" shows up many times in Scripture. It's used to describe Noah (Gen 6:9), Abraham (Gen 17:1), David (1 Sam 22:24), and Job (Job 1:1), for example. This is important to the point, because all of these men sinned at some time, yet God counted them blameless because they were reconciled to Him.

Mary is described in a manner consistent with being counted blameless. In Matthew, an angel explained to Joseph "do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 1:20). In Luke, an angel tells Mary "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God" (Luke 1:30). You can see from both passages that Mary is someone who has pleased the Lord, but in no place is she referred to as sinless.

Now regarding Mary's station in things, consider that in the Gospel of Mark, she is not mentioned until the third chapter, and then because she sends people in to where Jesus is teaching to have him come out to her. This is where Christ says ""Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. "Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (Mark 3:33-35)

The Gospel of John does not even mention Mary the Mother of Jesus. That's not disrespecting her, but if she was a person so important that she should be ranked alongside the Messiah, well, we would surely have seen more in Gospels about her.

I understand that tradition in the Roman Catholic Church plays a prominent role, however that does not create authority in the absence of Scripture.

FreedomBear, I would like your response to my prior post, please.

Coke Bear and CurtPenn as well, if they would be so kind.




Can you offer some assistance. I read yournpost. Is your question whether I or Catholics would believe she is sinless or blameless? That will help me craft a response to further our intelligent discussion.
Fre3dombear
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By the way. Sola scriptura isn't written anywhere in the Bible so by that very fact, that is a tradition of man.

That will bend some minds for those that think they are sola scriptura
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Fre3dombear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Coke Bear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

EVERY person from the seed of Adam and Eve is in the line of original sin and inherits original sin. I don't even see how this is even a question.

The only way Mary could be sinless is if she did not come from Eve's seed - and if that's the case, then Jesus could NOT have come from her, because God specifically stated that it would be from Eve's seed that Jesus would come and "crush the head of the serpent".

It's your inability to understand/accept such basic things that is so troubling.
Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin from the first moment of her existence. This grace was unique and permanent, ensuring she was in a state of sanctifying grace throughout her life.

Are you saying that God cannot give that gift?

By your "line of original sin logic", Jesus would have to have original sin because he was in the same line.
This is a completely made up belief. There is nothing whatsoever in Scripture or in the early church to support such nonsense. The argument that "if God could do it, then it's true" is so mind-numbingly irresponsible and ignorant that it defies comment. You seriously don't think it's a good idea to build an entire system of belief and worship on such ridiculous logic, do you?

No, Jesus would NOT have to have original sin, because he did not only come from the seed of Adam and Eve - he also came from the seed of divinity. It's a NEW line. That's why he's the "new Adam".


There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible. Especially if you study the Greek and the words used to describe her.

Additionally, Are you saying Mary was basically just like your mom but God just really liked her and asked if she would birth God - the Word made flesh?

Mary of course plays a prominent role in Revelation as well.
The idea that the tense of certain Greek words shows that Mary was sinless is a completely ridiculous reach. It's a prime example of starting with the conclusion you want, and forcing the evidence to match the conclusion. But for the sake of the discussion, please cite what you think the strongest evidence from the bible is for Mary's sinlessness. Let's put that up for analysis.

Mary was highly favored by God. But there is absolutely no reason whatsoever she HAD to be sinless. In fact, if you understood anything about God's plan of salvation of mankind, which started in Genesis, you'd see that Mary absolutely HAD to be a sinner. Your insistence that being the birth mother of Jesus necessitates that she be sinless is a complete non sequitur, and apparently unbeknownst to you, it would also void Jesus as the Savior. The belief that Mary was sinless is straight from the Devil.

And Mary isn't in Revelation. Even if you reasoned that she was, still, you are taking a very symbolic book with very symbolic language and imagery, and trying to extract concrete ideas and beliefs from them. This makes it very shaky. And it STILL does NOT show that Mary and the saints are to be prayed to.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Fre3dombear said:

Oldbear83 said:

"There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible."

Please show the Scripture saying Mary was without sin. I looked but what I found indicates something else.


This article summarizes much of the logic Catholics would use for this belief with various scripture chapter and verses in support thereof. Other sources may prevail but I share this for simplicity and further debate / argument.

This topic is an interesting one but not one that would necessarily have an impact on one's eternal salvation.

Much like, for example, the apparition and tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe. If one has studied it it would likely be near impossible to not believe it's validity, but if one chooses not to or suggests nah that's just a bunch if mularkey, it likely in and of itself will not result in one's eternal damnation. Though one may question one's logic and reasoning abilities and maybe rightfully so.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin
If someone believes in Jesus, but then worships an idol like Baal on the side, would that have an impact on eternal salvation?

The apparitions of Mary have promoted a VERY anti-Christian message. The Devil can perform these kinds of fakes. You are being deceived.

Tell us which of those "biblical" arguments you feel best makes the case that Mary is sinless.
Fre3dombear
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Fre3dombear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Coke Bear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

EVERY person from the seed of Adam and Eve is in the line of original sin and inherits original sin. I don't even see how this is even a question.

The only way Mary could be sinless is if she did not come from Eve's seed - and if that's the case, then Jesus could NOT have come from her, because God specifically stated that it would be from Eve's seed that Jesus would come and "crush the head of the serpent".

It's your inability to understand/accept such basic things that is so troubling.
Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin from the first moment of her existence. This grace was unique and permanent, ensuring she was in a state of sanctifying grace throughout her life.

Are you saying that God cannot give that gift?

By your "line of original sin logic", Jesus would have to have original sin because he was in the same line.
This is a completely made up belief. There is nothing whatsoever in Scripture or in the early church to support such nonsense. The argument that "if God could do it, then it's true" is so mind-numbingly irresponsible and ignorant that it defies comment. You seriously don't think it's a good idea to build an entire system of belief and worship on such ridiculous logic, do you?

No, Jesus would NOT have to have original sin, because he did not only come from the seed of Adam and Eve - he also came from the seed of divinity. It's a NEW line. That's why he's the "new Adam".


There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible. Especially if you study the Greek and the words used to describe her.

Additionally, Are you saying Mary was basically just like your mom but God just really liked her and asked if she would birth God - the Word made flesh?

Mary of course plays a prominent role in Revelation as well.
The idea that the tense of certain Greek words shows that Mary was sinless is a completely ridiculous reach. It's a prime example of starting with the conclusion you want, and forcing the evidence to match the conclusion. But for the sake of the discussion, please cite what you think the strongest evidence from the bible is for Mary's sinlessness. Let's put that up for analysis.

Mary was highly favored by God. But there is absolutely no reason whatsoever she HAD to be sinless. In fact, if you understood anything about God's plan of salvation of mankind, which started in Genesis, you'd see that Mary absolutely HAD to be a sinner. Your insistence that being the birth mother of Jesus necessitates that she be sinless is a complete non sequitur, and apparently unbeknownst to you, it would also void Jesus as the Savior. The belief that Mary was sinless is straight from the Devil.

And Mary isn't in Revelation. Even if you reasoned that she was, still, you are taking a very symbolic book with very symbolic language and imagery, and trying to extract concrete ideas and beliefs from them. This makes it very shaky. And it STILL does NOT show that Mary and the saints are to be prayed to.


I already did. It's summarized well in the link I posted. Feel free to dispute other than just "that's a ridiculous reach". If that's all you got, move along.
Fre3dombear
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Fre3dombear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Coke Bear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

EVERY person from the seed of Adam and Eve is in the line of original sin and inherits original sin. I don't even see how this is even a question.

The only way Mary could be sinless is if she did not come from Eve's seed - and if that's the case, then Jesus could NOT have come from her, because God specifically stated that it would be from Eve's seed that Jesus would come and "crush the head of the serpent".

It's your inability to understand/accept such basic things that is so troubling.
Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin from the first moment of her existence. This grace was unique and permanent, ensuring she was in a state of sanctifying grace throughout her life.

Are you saying that God cannot give that gift?

By your "line of original sin logic", Jesus would have to have original sin because he was in the same line.
This is a completely made up belief. There is nothing whatsoever in Scripture or in the early church to support such nonsense. The argument that "if God could do it, then it's true" is so mind-numbingly irresponsible and ignorant that it defies comment. You seriously don't think it's a good idea to build an entire system of belief and worship on such ridiculous logic, do you?

No, Jesus would NOT have to have original sin, because he did not only come from the seed of Adam and Eve - he also came from the seed of divinity. It's a NEW line. That's why he's the "new Adam".


There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible. Especially if you study the Greek and the words used to describe her.

Additionally, Are you saying Mary was basically just like your mom but God just really liked her and asked if she would birth God - the Word made flesh?

Mary of course plays a prominent role in Revelation as well.
The idea that the tense of certain Greek words shows that Mary was sinless is a completely ridiculous reach. It's a prime example of starting with the conclusion you want, and forcing the evidence to match the conclusion. But for the sake of the discussion, please cite what you think the strongest evidence from the bible is for Mary's sinlessness. Let's put that up for analysis.

Mary was highly favored by God. But there is absolutely no reason whatsoever she HAD to be sinless. In fact, if you understood anything about God's plan of salvation of mankind, which started in Genesis, you'd see that Mary absolutely HAD to be a sinner. Your insistence that being the birth mother of Jesus necessitates that she be sinless is a complete non sequitur, and apparently unbeknownst to you, it would also void Jesus as the Savior. The belief that Mary was sinless is straight from the Devil.

And Mary isn't in Revelation. Even if you reasoned that she was, still, you are taking a very symbolic book with very symbolic language and imagery, and trying to extract concrete ideas and beliefs from them. This makes it very shaky. And it STILL does NOT show that Mary and the saints are to be prayed to.


To entertain your thoughts

1) " tense" doesn't matter? Decided by you? Ok. You seem to have little to no knowledge of etymology to make such an outlandish claim, made further outlandish if I extrapolate to other things you probably mean beyond "tense", which of course are extremely critical in analyzing the inspired texts and specific words and context used.

Those things, are most paramount otherwise you as a mere person reading the Bible in English, translated. can infer or decide whatever it is you think your translation of the Bible means to you. Good luck.

2) Mary is throughout revelation. I see a trend here of where you are struggling.

3) so why didn't God choose a prostitute to be the ark / vessel / mother of God in the form of man if it didn't really matter and Mary was just a birthing canal for which to release Jesus into the world.

Pause. Breathe. Take a step back and use common sense.
Fre3dombear
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Fre3dombear said:

Oldbear83 said:

"There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible."

Please show the Scripture saying Mary was without sin. I looked but what I found indicates something else.


This article summarizes much of the logic Catholics would use for this belief with various scripture chapter and verses in support thereof. Other sources may prevail but I share this for simplicity and further debate / argument.

This topic is an interesting one but not one that would necessarily have an impact on one's eternal salvation.

Much like, for example, the apparition and tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe. If one has studied it it would likely be near impossible to not believe it's validity, but if one chooses not to or suggests nah that's just a bunch if mularkey, it likely in and of itself will not result in one's eternal damnation. Though one may question one's logic and reasoning abilities and maybe rightfully so.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin
If someone believes in Jesus, but then worships an idol like Baal on the side, would that have an impact on eternal salvation?

The apparitions of Mary have promoted a VERY anti-Christian message. The Devil can perform these kinds of fakes. You are being deceived.

Tell us which of those "biblical" arguments you feel best makes the case that Mary is sinless.


So you are sola scriptura? If so, Where is that in the Bible? Was everything that Jesus said to the apostles documented in the Bible? He said nothing else? Nothing codified in tradition?
Fre3dombear
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Fre3dombear said:

Oldbear83 said:

"There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible."

Please show the Scripture saying Mary was without sin. I looked but what I found indicates something else.


This article summarizes much of the logic Catholics would use for this belief with various scripture chapter and verses in support thereof. Other sources may prevail but I share this for simplicity and further debate / argument.

This topic is an interesting one but not one that would necessarily have an impact on one's eternal salvation.

Much like, for example, the apparition and tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe. If one has studied it it would likely be near impossible to not believe it's validity, but if one chooses not to or suggests nah that's just a bunch if mularkey, it likely in and of itself will not result in one's eternal damnation. Though one may question one's logic and reasoning abilities and maybe rightfully so.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin
If someone believes in Jesus, but then worships an idol like Baal on the side, would that have an impact on eternal salvation?

The apparitions of Mary have promoted a VERY anti-Christian message. The Devil can perform these kinds of fakes. You are being deceived.

Tell us which of those "biblical" arguments you feel best makes the case that Mary is sinless.


The apparitions of Mary are actually the devil? Anti-Christian? Huh?

Sorry this discourse will be tough to continue but I will as it's now gotten looney yet entertaining.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Fre3dombear said:

By the way. Sola scriptura isn't written anywhere in the Bible so by that very fact, that is a tradition of man.

That will bend some minds for those that think they are sola scriptura
Sola Scriptura is not a biblical argument nor a tradition. It's a logical and necessarily true principle about sets, the bible being the set of all known divinely inspired words of God. It is a logical and necessary truth independent of the bible. Not everthing that is true about the Bible has to be stated in the Bible in order for it to be true.

None of you opponents of sola scriptura understand this. You're essentially arguing that it's wrong to believe that we have to follow the specific list of ingredients and steps in a cookie recipe in order to make cookie correctly, because the recipe itself does not specifically state that we have to ONLY follow those steps and ingredients.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Fre3dombear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Fre3dombear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Coke Bear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

EVERY person from the seed of Adam and Eve is in the line of original sin and inherits original sin. I don't even see how this is even a question.

The only way Mary could be sinless is if she did not come from Eve's seed - and if that's the case, then Jesus could NOT have come from her, because God specifically stated that it would be from Eve's seed that Jesus would come and "crush the head of the serpent".

It's your inability to understand/accept such basic things that is so troubling.
Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin from the first moment of her existence. This grace was unique and permanent, ensuring she was in a state of sanctifying grace throughout her life.

Are you saying that God cannot give that gift?

By your "line of original sin logic", Jesus would have to have original sin because he was in the same line.
This is a completely made up belief. There is nothing whatsoever in Scripture or in the early church to support such nonsense. The argument that "if God could do it, then it's true" is so mind-numbingly irresponsible and ignorant that it defies comment. You seriously don't think it's a good idea to build an entire system of belief and worship on such ridiculous logic, do you?

No, Jesus would NOT have to have original sin, because he did not only come from the seed of Adam and Eve - he also came from the seed of divinity. It's a NEW line. That's why he's the "new Adam".


There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible. Especially if you study the Greek and the words used to describe her.

Additionally, Are you saying Mary was basically just like your mom but God just really liked her and asked if she would birth God - the Word made flesh?

Mary of course plays a prominent role in Revelation as well.
The idea that the tense of certain Greek words shows that Mary was sinless is a completely ridiculous reach. It's a prime example of starting with the conclusion you want, and forcing the evidence to match the conclusion. But for the sake of the discussion, please cite what you think the strongest evidence from the bible is for Mary's sinlessness. Let's put that up for analysis.

Mary was highly favored by God. But there is absolutely no reason whatsoever she HAD to be sinless. In fact, if you understood anything about God's plan of salvation of mankind, which started in Genesis, you'd see that Mary absolutely HAD to be a sinner. Your insistence that being the birth mother of Jesus necessitates that she be sinless is a complete non sequitur, and apparently unbeknownst to you, it would also void Jesus as the Savior. The belief that Mary was sinless is straight from the Devil.

And Mary isn't in Revelation. Even if you reasoned that she was, still, you are taking a very symbolic book with very symbolic language and imagery, and trying to extract concrete ideas and beliefs from them. This makes it very shaky. And it STILL does NOT show that Mary and the saints are to be prayed to.


To entertain your thoughts

1) " tense" doesn't matter? Decided by you? Ok. You seem to have little to no knowledge of etymology to make such an outlandish claim, made further outlandish if I extrapolate to other things you probably mean beyond "tense", which of course are extremely critical in analyzing the inspired texts and specific words and context used.

Those things, are most paramount otherwise you as a mere person reading the Bible in English, translated. can infer or decide whatever it is you think your translation of the Bible means to you. Good luck.

2) Mary is throughout revelation. I see a trend here of where you are struggling.

3) so why didn't God choose a prostitute to be the ark / vessel / mother of God in the form of man if it didn't really matter and Mary was just a birthing canal for which to release Jesus into the world.

Pause. Breathe. Take a step back and use common sense.
You're not providing ANY positive evidence or reasoning for your claim. You're essentially only arguing "you don't know what you're talking about" or "you're wrong because I see it that way" or "since God didn't choose a prostitute to birth Jesus, then it follows that Mary was sinless".

Maybe YOU ought to pause and take a breath, because oxygen doesn't seem to be reaching your brain.
BusyTarpDuster2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Fre3dombear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Fre3dombear said:

Oldbear83 said:

"There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible."

Please show the Scripture saying Mary was without sin. I looked but what I found indicates something else.


This article summarizes much of the logic Catholics would use for this belief with various scripture chapter and verses in support thereof. Other sources may prevail but I share this for simplicity and further debate / argument.

This topic is an interesting one but not one that would necessarily have an impact on one's eternal salvation.

Much like, for example, the apparition and tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe. If one has studied it it would likely be near impossible to not believe it's validity, but if one chooses not to or suggests nah that's just a bunch if mularkey, it likely in and of itself will not result in one's eternal damnation. Though one may question one's logic and reasoning abilities and maybe rightfully so.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin
If someone believes in Jesus, but then worships an idol like Baal on the side, would that have an impact on eternal salvation?

The apparitions of Mary have promoted a VERY anti-Christian message. The Devil can perform these kinds of fakes. You are being deceived.

Tell us which of those "biblical" arguments you feel best makes the case that Mary is sinless.


So you are sola scriptura? If so, Where is that in the Bible? Was everything that Jesus said to the apostles documented in the Bible? He said nothing else? Nothing codified in tradition?
Can you cite a tradition that we know came from Jesus or his apostles, that is NOT in Scripture?
BusyTarpDuster2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Fre3dombear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Fre3dombear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Coke Bear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

EVERY person from the seed of Adam and Eve is in the line of original sin and inherits original sin. I don't even see how this is even a question.

The only way Mary could be sinless is if she did not come from Eve's seed - and if that's the case, then Jesus could NOT have come from her, because God specifically stated that it would be from Eve's seed that Jesus would come and "crush the head of the serpent".

It's your inability to understand/accept such basic things that is so troubling.
Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin from the first moment of her existence. This grace was unique and permanent, ensuring she was in a state of sanctifying grace throughout her life.

Are you saying that God cannot give that gift?

By your "line of original sin logic", Jesus would have to have original sin because he was in the same line.
This is a completely made up belief. There is nothing whatsoever in Scripture or in the early church to support such nonsense. The argument that "if God could do it, then it's true" is so mind-numbingly irresponsible and ignorant that it defies comment. You seriously don't think it's a good idea to build an entire system of belief and worship on such ridiculous logic, do you?

No, Jesus would NOT have to have original sin, because he did not only come from the seed of Adam and Eve - he also came from the seed of divinity. It's a NEW line. That's why he's the "new Adam".


There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible. Especially if you study the Greek and the words used to describe her.

Additionally, Are you saying Mary was basically just like your mom but God just really liked her and asked if she would birth God - the Word made flesh?

Mary of course plays a prominent role in Revelation as well.
The idea that the tense of certain Greek words shows that Mary was sinless is a completely ridiculous reach. It's a prime example of starting with the conclusion you want, and forcing the evidence to match the conclusion. But for the sake of the discussion, please cite what you think the strongest evidence from the bible is for Mary's sinlessness. Let's put that up for analysis.

Mary was highly favored by God. But there is absolutely no reason whatsoever she HAD to be sinless. In fact, if you understood anything about God's plan of salvation of mankind, which started in Genesis, you'd see that Mary absolutely HAD to be a sinner. Your insistence that being the birth mother of Jesus necessitates that she be sinless is a complete non sequitur, and apparently unbeknownst to you, it would also void Jesus as the Savior. The belief that Mary was sinless is straight from the Devil.

And Mary isn't in Revelation. Even if you reasoned that she was, still, you are taking a very symbolic book with very symbolic language and imagery, and trying to extract concrete ideas and beliefs from them. This makes it very shaky. And it STILL does NOT show that Mary and the saints are to be prayed to.


I already did. It's summarized well in the link I posted. Feel free to dispute other than just "that's a ridiculous reach". If that's all you got, move along.
Why don't you just cite the strongest argument from that link, and we can go from there?
Fre3dombear
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Fre3dombear said:

By the way. Sola scriptura isn't written anywhere in the Bible so by that very fact, that is a tradition of man.

That will bend some minds for those that think they are sola scriptura
Sola Scriptura is not a biblical argument nor a tradition. It's a logical and necessarily true principle about sets, the bible being the set of all known divinely inspired words of God. It is a logical and necessary truth independent of the bible.

None of you opponents of sola scriptura understand this. You're essentially arguing that it's wrong to believe that we have to follow the specific list of ingredients and steps in a cookie recipe in order to make cookie correctly, because the recipe itself does not specifically state that we have to ONLY follow those steps and ingredients.


So wait, you're subscribing to a belief that comes from where in order to be sola scriptura? So that's ok but you're too closed minded to recognize you're own hypocrisy in your arguments thus far?

I am fascinate

And tell me kind sir, who assembled this Bible from the countless texts in existence, thousands, that you sola scriptura?
Fre3dombear
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Fre3dombear said:

By the way. Sola scriptura isn't written anywhere in the Bible so by that very fact, that is a tradition of man.

That will bend some minds for those that think they are sola scriptura
Sola Scriptura is not a biblical argument nor a tradition. It's a logical and necessarily true principle about sets, the bible being the set of all known divinely inspired words of God. It is a logical and necessary truth independent of the bible.

None of you opponents of sola scriptura understand this. You're essentially arguing that it's wrong to believe that we have to follow the specific list of ingredients and steps in a cookie recipe in order to make cookie correctly, because the recipe itself does not specifically state that we have to ONLY follow those steps and ingredients.


Ok so you've established this is how you believe, sola scriptura not because of explicit Mention in the Bible or tradition but because of something outside of the Bible…logic (which I also used and laid out neatly in summary form in the article which uses…logic for the topic of Mary).

Yet you don't believe John 6:53. Interesting and perplexing
Fre3dombear
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Fre3dombear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Fre3dombear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Coke Bear said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

EVERY person from the seed of Adam and Eve is in the line of original sin and inherits original sin. I don't even see how this is even a question.

The only way Mary could be sinless is if she did not come from Eve's seed - and if that's the case, then Jesus could NOT have come from her, because God specifically stated that it would be from Eve's seed that Jesus would come and "crush the head of the serpent".

It's your inability to understand/accept such basic things that is so troubling.
Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin from the first moment of her existence. This grace was unique and permanent, ensuring she was in a state of sanctifying grace throughout her life.

Are you saying that God cannot give that gift?

By your "line of original sin logic", Jesus would have to have original sin because he was in the same line.
This is a completely made up belief. There is nothing whatsoever in Scripture or in the early church to support such nonsense. The argument that "if God could do it, then it's true" is so mind-numbingly irresponsible and ignorant that it defies comment. You seriously don't think it's a good idea to build an entire system of belief and worship on such ridiculous logic, do you?

No, Jesus would NOT have to have original sin, because he did not only come from the seed of Adam and Eve - he also came from the seed of divinity. It's a NEW line. That's why he's the "new Adam".


There's actually plenty of support that Mary was without original sin in the Bible. Especially if you study the Greek and the words used to describe her.

Additionally, Are you saying Mary was basically just like your mom but God just really liked her and asked if she would birth God - the Word made flesh?

Mary of course plays a prominent role in Revelation as well.
The idea that the tense of certain Greek words shows that Mary was sinless is a completely ridiculous reach. It's a prime example of starting with the conclusion you want, and forcing the evidence to match the conclusion. But for the sake of the discussion, please cite what you think the strongest evidence from the bible is for Mary's sinlessness. Let's put that up for analysis.

Mary was highly favored by God. But there is absolutely no reason whatsoever she HAD to be sinless. In fact, if you understood anything about God's plan of salvation of mankind, which started in Genesis, you'd see that Mary absolutely HAD to be a sinner. Your insistence that being the birth mother of Jesus necessitates that she be sinless is a complete non sequitur, and apparently unbeknownst to you, it would also void Jesus as the Savior. The belief that Mary was sinless is straight from the Devil.

And Mary isn't in Revelation. Even if you reasoned that she was, still, you are taking a very symbolic book with very symbolic language and imagery, and trying to extract concrete ideas and beliefs from them. This makes it very shaky. And it STILL does NOT show that Mary and the saints are to be prayed to.


I already did. It's summarized well in the link I posted. Feel free to dispute other than just "that's a ridiculous reach". If that's all you got, move along.
Why don't you just cite the strongest argument from that link, and we can go from there?


Dang you lazy and stubborn, which ain't surprising Here ya go. Made it simple for ya

**Key Points:**

1. **Immaculate Conception**: Mary was conceived without original sin.
2. **Mary's Need for a Savior**: Despite her sinlessness, Mary still needed salvation through Christ.
3. **Mary as the New Eve**: Parallels between Mary and Eve, with Mary as the sinless counterpart.

**Reasons to Substantiate Claims:**

- **Full of Grace**: The article cites Luke 1:28 where the angel Gabriel addresses Mary as "full of grace," suggesting a unique state of grace from conception.

- **Scriptural Interpretation**: It interprets Genesis 3:15 (the Protoevangelium) where enmity is placed between the serpent and the woman, indicating Mary's role in the defeat of sin.

- **Salvation Through Christ**: The doctrine is defended by stating that Mary was saved by Christ's grace at the moment of her conception, not after committing sin, thus pre-emptively saved.

- **New Eve Concept**: Mary is likened to Eve before the fall, but with the distinction that Mary remained sinless, fulfilling the role of a new, sinless mother of all the living in Christ.

- **Historical Church Teaching**: The belief in Mary's Immaculate Conception has roots in early Church tradition, further solidified by the dogma declared in 1854 by Pope Pius IX.

- **Theological Necessity**: The sinlessness of Mary is seen as necessary for her to bear the sinless Christ, maintaining the purity of the incarnation.
Waco1947
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xfrodobagginsx said:

BUDOS said:

Not being as knowledgeable about the Bible as you guys, I realize the following may sound stupid, but perhaps you can help me understand how someone can sin without committing a sinful act either in thought or physical act. Sorry if this sounds stupid but I have been learning some things, especially church history and some new resources.
There is no stupid question. Don't be afraid to ask ANY sincere question. That's what this thread is supposed to be about, although lots of debate also happens here.

1Adam being the first man had the DNA of every subsequent human being inside of himself from the beginning.
2)Adam sinned before reproducing any children.
3) When Adam sinned, it changed his very nature from an innocent, sinless creature into a sinful one. It permeated every part of his being.
4) Therefore, when he had children from then on, he passed his sin nature down to every person that came after him.

Referring to Adam here:

Romans 5:12 (KJV)

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The good news is that Just As Adam passed his sin nature on all men, Jesus Christ died rose again, Sacrificing Himself for our sins, so that ALL men might be saved, But only those who apply it to their lives will be saved. This is because God won't force anyone to serve Him.


1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV)

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If you read this first post, it explains this in more detail. God bless and feel free to ask me anything.
Is Adam a historical person in your understanding? What year was he created?
Waco1947 ,la
 
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