Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine as we knew it no longer exists. You can thank Zelensky for that.

---

So, you liked the Soviet block, Russia-puppet state Ukraine? A Ukraine aligned with the EU and NATO is a bad thing?

---

No, but if it means seeing huge numbers of people killed and a long drawn out war....is it worth it? Its not like the EU or the USA actually need Ukraine for anything.

This is kind of like the situation with Taiwan. Do we want to see Taiwan invaded and forcibly reincorporated back into China? No

Is it worth a massive war for a small island that only has 23 million people...when we already have S. Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, and the Philippines in our alliance/trade network?

Our geo-strategic policy when dealing with both Ukraine and Taiwan should have been trying to keep the status quo and not letting Nuland and her nutbag buddies help turn things hot.

---

That is not ours or the EUs call. That is Ukraine's call. The Revolutionary War and War of 1812 looked pretty grim, I guess we should have just said No Mas???

---

The EU is under the military protection and basically suzerainty of the USA. So American foreign policy decisions have great effect on the policies that the EU adopts.

Obviously, many Central European countries want to turn down the heat on this war and enter into negotiations.

That does not seem to be a priority for Washington....and given the recent Senate vote our politicians also don't want to appoint a inspector general who will keep up with the money being shipped over there.


p.s.

I think you know my opinion on most secessionist movements like our Revolutionary war/War of Independence (I'm for them if the local people are for them)...but I would love to have a discussion on the War of 1812....basically we didn't really win and New England almost seceded and broke off from the USA over it.

But certainly every war that you feel you have reasons to fight does not mean in fact that it's a good idea or that it will not have terrible long term consequences. War 1812, our so-called civil war in 1861, First World War all fall in the category of pointless to outright disasters.

---

I do agree with you on the War of 1812.

Civil War, unfortunately for the US to survive I do believe it was necessary and would have happened no matter what.

WW1, this was a strange one. I do agree it was unnecessary.

What I believe needs to be discussed is not the fighting of these wars and others is what happened after. That is where I believe the true disasters occur basically turning all the sacrifice, misery and money spent into a waste. I think the Civil War and Jim Crow fits in there. As well as WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles. Opportunities lost...

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine as we knew it no longer exists. You can thank Zelensky for that.

---

So, you liked the Soviet block, Russia-puppet state Ukraine? A Ukraine aligned with the EU and NATO is a bad thing?

---

No, but if it means seeing huge numbers of people killed and a long drawn out war....is it worth it? Its not like the EU or the USA actually need Ukraine for anything.

This is kind of like the situation with Taiwan. Do we want to see Taiwan invaded and forcibly reincorporated back into China? No

Is it worth a massive war for a small island that only has 23 million people...when we already have S. Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, and the Philippines in our alliance/trade network?

Our geo-strategic policy when dealing with both Ukraine and Taiwan should have been trying to keep the status quo and not letting Nuland and her nutbag buddies help turn things hot.

---

That is not ours or the EUs call. That is Ukraine's call. The Revolutionary War and War of 1812 looked pretty grim, I guess we should have just said No Mas???

---

The EU is under the military protection and basically suzerainty of the USA. So American foreign policy decisions have great effect on the policies that the EU adopts.

Obviously, many Central European countries want to turn down the heat on this war and enter into negotiations.

That does not seem to be a priority for Washington....and given the recent Senate vote our politicians also don't want to appoint a inspector general who will keep up with the money being shipped over there.


p.s.

I think you know my opinion on most secessionist movements like our Revolutionary war/War of Independence (I'm for them if the local people are for them)...but I would love to have a discussion on the War of 1812....basically we didn't really win and New England almost seceded and broke off from the USA over it.

But certainly every war that you feel you have reasons to fight does not mean in fact that it's a good idea or that it will not have terrible long term consequences. War 1812, our so-called civil war in 1861, First World War all fall in the category of pointless to outright disasters.

---

I do agree with you on the War of 1812.

Civil War, unfortunately for the US to survive I do believe it was necessary and would have happened no matter what.

WW1, this was a strange one. I do agree it was unnecessary.

What I believe needs to be discussed is not the fighting of these wars and others is what happened after. That is where I believe the true disasters occur basically turning all the sacrifice, misery and money spent into a waste. I think the Civil War and Jim Crow fits in there. As well as WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles. Opportunities lost...

---

Eh it was not really a civil war....well at least its debatable depending on what definition of "civil war" you are using....but lets not pretend that a 20+ State Union of Northern & Border States was any less viable than a 30 State Union with southern states inside it.

That war might have been over lots of issues and had various outcomes.

But the existence of the United States was NOT on the line....only if that USA would control all/most of the lands south of the Ohio river.

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine as we knew it no longer exists. You can thank Zelensky for that.

---

So, you liked the Soviet block, Russia-puppet state Ukraine? A Ukraine aligned with the EU and NATO is a bad thing?

---

No, but if it means seeing huge numbers of people killed and a long drawn out war....is it worth it? Its not like the EU or the USA actually need Ukraine for anything.

This is kind of like the situation with Taiwan. Do we want to see Taiwan invaded and forcibly reincorporated back into China? No

Is it worth a massive war for a small island that only has 23 million people...when we already have S. Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, and the Philippines in our alliance/trade network?

Our geo-strategic policy when dealing with both Ukraine and Taiwan should have been trying to keep the status quo and not letting Nuland and her nutbag buddies help turn things hot.

---

That is not ours or the EUs call. That is Ukraine's call. The Revolutionary War and War of 1812 looked pretty grim, I guess we should have just said No Mas???

---

The EU is under the military protection and basically suzerainty of the USA. So American foreign policy decisions have great effect on the policies that the EU adopts.

Obviously, many Central European countries want to turn down the heat on this war and enter into negotiations.

That does not seem to be a priority for Washington....and given the recent Senate vote our politicians also don't want to appoint a inspector general who will keep up with the money being shipped over there.


p.s.

I think you know my opinion on most secessionist movements like our Revolutionary war/War of Independence (I'm for them if the local people are for them)...but I would love to have a discussion on the War of 1812....basically we didn't really win and New England almost seceded and broke off from the USA over it.

But certainly every war that you feel you have reasons to fight does not mean in fact that it's a good idea or that it will not have terrible long term consequences. War 1812, our so-called civil war in 1861, First World War all fall in the category of pointless to outright disasters.

---

I do agree with you on the War of 1812.

Civil War, unfortunately for the US to survive I do believe it was necessary and would have happened no matter what.

WW1, this was a strange one. I do agree it was unnecessary.

What I believe needs to be discussed is not the fighting of these wars and others is what happened after. That is where I believe the true disasters occur basically turning all the sacrifice, misery and money spent into a waste. I think the Civil War and Jim Crow fits in there. As well as WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles. Opportunities lost...

---

Eh it was not really a civil war....well at least its debatable depending on what definition of "civil war" you are using....but lets not pretend that a 20+ State Union of Northern & Border States was any less viable than a 30 State Union with southern states inside it.

That war might have been over lots of issues and had various outcomes.

But the existence of the United States was NOT on the line....only if that USA would control all/most of the lands south of the Ohio river.

---

What was on the line was the "once in, never out" principle. If the South lost and those States left, it would have set a precedent that States could be in and out on whims of their Legislators. War settled that once you are in, States can't leave without the agreement of Congress. That was and is paramount to the US being a stable nation.

Most of the pro war arguments I'm hearing is that we should use this war to weaken Russia because they're a threat while simultaneously saying that Ukraine is going to win because Russia is so weak...meaning Russia isn't really a threat.

It doesn't make sense.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Most of the pro war arguments I'm hearing is that we should use this war to weaken Russia because they're a threat while simultaneously saying that Ukraine is going to win because Russia is so weak...meaning Russia isn't really a threat.

It doesn't make sense.

War profiteering makes sense. Not "yeah people make money in war", but rather "lets recklessly accelerate war to make money and divvy up the spoils".

---

It doesn't make sense because they don't tell you the most important part. It's Russia's defense that we're trying to weaken, not its offense.

FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine as we knew it no longer exists. You can thank Zelensky for that.

---

So, you liked the Soviet block, Russia-puppet state Ukraine? A Ukraine aligned with the EU and NATO is a bad thing?

---

No, but if it means seeing huge numbers of people killed and a long drawn out war....is it worth it? Its not like the EU or the USA actually need Ukraine for anything.

This is kind of like the situation with Taiwan. Do we want to see Taiwan invaded and forcibly reincorporated back into China? No

Is it worth a massive war for a small island that only has 23 million people...when we already have S. Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, and the Philippines in our alliance/trade network?

Our geo-strategic policy when dealing with both Ukraine and Taiwan should have been trying to keep the status quo and not letting Nuland and her nutbag buddies help turn things hot.

---

That is not ours or the EUs call. That is Ukraine's call. The Revolutionary War and War of 1812 looked pretty grim, I guess we should have just said No Mas???

---

The EU is under the military protection and basically suzerainty of the USA. So American foreign policy decisions have great effect on the policies that the EU adopts.

Obviously, many Central European countries want to turn down the heat on this war and enter into negotiations.

That does not seem to be a priority for Washington....and given the recent Senate vote our politicians also don't want to appoint a inspector general who will keep up with the money being shipped over there.


p.s.

I think you know my opinion on most secessionist movements like our Revolutionary war/War of Independence (I'm for them if the local people are for them)...but I would love to have a discussion on the War of 1812....basically we didn't really win and New England almost seceded and broke off from the USA over it.

But certainly every war that you feel you have reasons to fight does not mean in fact that it's a good idea or that it will not have terrible long term consequences. War 1812, our so-called civil war in 1861, First World War all fall in the category of pointless to outright disasters.

---

I do agree with you on the War of 1812.

Civil War, unfortunately for the US to survive I do believe it was necessary and would have happened no matter what.

WW1, this was a strange one. I do agree it was unnecessary.

What I believe needs to be discussed is not the fighting of these wars and others is what happened after. That is where I believe the true disasters occur basically turning all the sacrifice, misery and money spent into a waste. I think the Civil War and Jim Crow fits in there. As well as WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles. Opportunities lost...

---

Eh it was not really a civil war....well at least its debatable depending on what definition of "civil war" you are using....but lets not pretend that a 20+ State Union of Northern & Border States was any less viable than a 30 State Union with southern states inside it.

That war might have been over lots of issues and had various outcomes.

But the existence of the United States was NOT on the line....only if that USA would control all/most of the lands south of the Ohio river.

---

What was on the line was the "once in, never out" principle. If the South lost and those States left, it would have set a precedent that States could be in and out on whims of their Legislators. War settled that once you are in, States can't leave without the agreement of Congress.

---

Oh how very British Empire of you....or dare I say Putinist Russian of you.

But again. The USA would have been fine in the long run. And it not...then it would have meant the USA was so corrupt and tyrannical that it could not convivence its constituent State members to remain inside of it.

A political Union held together by bayonets and bullets is no voluntary free union of Sovereign States and free peoples...its more of an evil Empire.

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine as we knew it no longer exists. You can thank Zelensky for that.

---

So, you liked the Soviet block, Russia-puppet state Ukraine? A Ukraine aligned with the EU and NATO is a bad thing?

---

No, but if it means seeing huge numbers of people killed and a long drawn out war....is it worth it? Its not like the EU or the USA actually need Ukraine for anything.

This is kind of like the situation with Taiwan. Do we want to see Taiwan invaded and forcibly reincorporated back into China? No

Is it worth a massive war for a small island that only has 23 million people...when we already have S. Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, and the Philippines in our alliance/trade network?

Our geo-strategic policy when dealing with both Ukraine and Taiwan should have been trying to keep the status quo and not letting Nuland and her nutbag buddies help turn things hot.

---

That is not ours or the EUs call. That is Ukraine's call. The Revolutionary War and War of 1812 looked pretty grim, I guess we should have just said No Mas???

---

The EU is under the military protection and basically suzerainty of the USA. So American foreign policy decisions have great effect on the policies that the EU adopts.

Obviously, many Central European countries want to turn down the heat on this war and enter into negotiations.

That does not seem to be a priority for Washington....and given the recent Senate vote our politicians also don't want to appoint a inspector general who will keep up with the money being shipped over there.


p.s.

I think you know my opinion on most secessionist movements like our Revolutionary war/War of Independence (I'm for them if the local people are for them)...but I would love to have a discussion on the War of 1812....basically we didn't really win and New England almost seceded and broke off from the USA over it.

But certainly every war that you feel you have reasons to fight does not mean in fact that it's a good idea or that it will not have terrible long term consequences. War 1812, our so-called civil war in 1861, First World War all fall in the category of pointless to outright disasters.

---

I do agree with you on the War of 1812.

Civil War, unfortunately for the US to survive I do believe it was necessary and would have happened no matter what.

WW1, this was a strange one. I do agree it was unnecessary.

What I believe needs to be discussed is not the fighting of these wars and others is what happened after. That is where I believe the true disasters occur basically turning all the sacrifice, misery and money spent into a waste. I think the Civil War and Jim Crow fits in there. As well as WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles. Opportunities lost...

---

Eh it was not really a civil war....well at least its debatable depending on what definition of "civil war" you are using....but lets not pretend that a 20+ State Union of Northern & Border States was any less viable than a 30 State Union with southern states inside it.

That war might have been over lots of issues and had various outcomes.

But the existence of the United States was NOT on the line....only if that USA would control all/most of the lands south of the Ohio river.

---

What was on the line was the "once in, never out" principle. If the South lost and those States left, it would have set a precedent that States could be in and out on whims of their Legislators. War settled that once you are in, States can't leave without the agreement of Congress.

---

Oh how very British Empire of you....or dare I say Putinist Russian of you.

But again. The USA would have been fine in the long run. And it not...then it would have meant the USA was so corrupt and tyrannical that it could not convivence its constituent State members to remain inside of it.

A political Union held together by bayonets and bullets is no voluntary free union of Sovereign States and free peoples...its more of an evil Empire.

---

A Nation is a nation. States are subordinate, when they decide to join.

Let's look into your thought process a little more. Are you saying each State is a sovereign Nation with rights to leave at will? That Virginia is the same as Ukraine? That Virginia has the same Sovereign rights as Ukraine? Actually in your analyis, Virginia has more rights than Ukraine. They should be able to leave, Ukraine can't even when Russia agreed.

Let's look at your view and how it impacts US States. What about Virginia and West Virgini, are they still under Virginia's control because they were once part of Virginia? The original British charter gave Virginia rights until the Pacific. We still honor that? Massachusetts and Maine? NY and Vermont? None of those matter? If the original State wants them back, they should be allowed because they once had history?? That is the Putin model you seem to favor

FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine as we knew it no longer exists. You can thank Zelensky for that.

---

So, you liked the Soviet block, Russia-puppet state Ukraine? A Ukraine aligned with the EU and NATO is a bad thing?

---

No, but if it means seeing huge numbers of people killed and a long drawn out war....is it worth it? Its not like the EU or the USA actually need Ukraine for anything.

This is kind of like the situation with Taiwan. Do we want to see Taiwan invaded and forcibly reincorporated back into China? No

Is it worth a massive war for a small island that only has 23 million people...when we already have S. Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, and the Philippines in our alliance/trade network?

Our geo-strategic policy when dealing with both Ukraine and Taiwan should have been trying to keep the status quo and not letting Nuland and her nutbag buddies help turn things hot.

---

That is not ours or the EUs call. That is Ukraine's call. The Revolutionary War and War of 1812 looked pretty grim, I guess we should have just said No Mas???

---

The EU is under the military protection and basically suzerainty of the USA. So American foreign policy decisions have great effect on the policies that the EU adopts.

Obviously, many Central European countries want to turn down the heat on this war and enter into negotiations.

That does not seem to be a priority for Washington....and given the recent Senate vote our politicians also don't want to appoint a inspector general who will keep up with the money being shipped over there.


p.s.

I think you know my opinion on most secessionist movements like our Revolutionary war/War of Independence (I'm for them if the local people are for them)...but I would love to have a discussion on the War of 1812....basically we didn't really win and New England almost seceded and broke off from the USA over it.

But certainly every war that you feel you have reasons to fight does not mean in fact that it's a good idea or that it will not have terrible long term consequences. War 1812, our so-called civil war in 1861, First World War all fall in the category of pointless to outright disasters.

---

I do agree with you on the War of 1812.

Civil War, unfortunately for the US to survive I do believe it was necessary and would have happened no matter what.

WW1, this was a strange one. I do agree it was unnecessary.

What I believe needs to be discussed is not the fighting of these wars and others is what happened after. That is where I believe the true disasters occur basically turning all the sacrifice, misery and money spent into a waste. I think the Civil War and Jim Crow fits in there. As well as WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles. Opportunities lost...

---

Eh it was not really a civil war....well at least its debatable depending on what definition of "civil war" you are using....but lets not pretend that a 20+ State Union of Northern & Border States was any less viable than a 30 State Union with southern states inside it.

That war might have been over lots of issues and had various outcomes.

But the existence of the United States was NOT on the line....only if that USA would control all/most of the lands south of the Ohio river.

---

What was on the line was the "once in, never out" principle. If the South lost and those States left, it would have set a precedent that States could be in and out on whims of their Legislators. War settled that once you are in, States can't leave without the agreement of Congress.

---

Oh how very British Empire of you....or dare I say Putinist Russian of you.

But again. The USA would have been fine in the long run. And it not...then it would have meant the USA was so corrupt and tyrannical that it could not convivence its constituent State members to remain inside of it.

A political Union held together by bayonets and bullets is no voluntary free union of Sovereign States and free peoples...its more of an evil Empire.

---

A Nation is a nation. States are subordinate, when they decide to join. ...

Let's look at your view and how it impacts US States. What about Virginia and West Virgini, are they still under Virginia's control because they were once part of Virginia? The original British charter gave Virginia rights until the Pacific. We still honor that? Massachusetts and Maine? NY and Vermont? None of those matter? If the original State wants them back, they should be allowed because they once had history?? That is the Putin model you seem to favor

---

No, they in fact are most certainly NOT.

1. [The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.] -10th Amendment, ratified in 1791

[Not only do States retain sovereignty under the Constitution, there is also a "fundamental principle of equal [emphasis added] sovereignty".... Over a hundred years ago, this Court explained that our Nation "was and is a union of States, equal in power, dignity and authority." Indeed, "the constitutional equality of the States is essential to the harmonious operation of the scheme upon which the Republic was organized." ] -Chief Justice Roberts (+ justices Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito, Shelby County v. Holder, June 25, http://*******.com/qzrpndc)

"Our constitutional history started with the States retaining all powers of sovereignty unimpaired, save those conferred upon the national Government. The evolution...has consisted largely in determining the line of demarcation between state & national authority."- Calvin Coolidge, 5/30/1925

2. Very interesting that you mention West Virginia. Just at the same time as Lincoln and the Unionists made war on the southern states for wanting to break off from the United States....they helped break off and create a new state by supporting a secessionist movement within its borders.

And in fact just the kind of thing Putin is doing in the Donbas.

Putin and Lincoln would have lots of common ground when it came to Centralized power vs constituent entities.

Lincoln was against secession (unless he liked it aka West Virginia)...Putin is against secession in places like Chechnya (unless he likes in in places like Donbas)

Hypocrisy in the extreme.

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Exactly. Nobody is forcing Ukraine to fight. They want to. Supporting them ensures destruction of a century of accumulated Russian arms/ammo they will never be able to fully replace. Our investment is literally buying decades of peace in Europe.

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Most of the pro war arguments I'm hearing is that we should use this war to weaken Russia because they're a threat while simultaneously saying that Ukraine is going to win because Russia is so weak...meaning Russia isn't really a threat.

It doesn't make sense.

---

What doesn't make sense is how Americans today don't understand how freedom is won. We have a bunch of cowards that would fold at the first sign of any Russian threat to us.

You defend your country. If you don't defend your country you don't deserve to keep it. Ukraine is deserving it.

---

By what measure is Ukraine 'sovereign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?
How can one fight for freedom in a country without freedom of speech, religion or ability to vote?
People have been fleeing Ukraine for the last 50 years...a lot of people.

Future domestic resistance is getting annihilated and eventually Ukraine will get surrendered. They're getting Native American'ized. Blackrock and JP Morgan will help Ukraine launch a recovery bank to raise hundreds of billions of reconstruction money and own all their market share: divvying up the spoils of war.

Lets discuss the brutal truth behind this instead of the Hollywood version.

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Most of the pro war arguments I'm hearing is that we should use this war to weaken Russia because they're a threat while simultaneously saying that Ukraine is going to win because Russia is so weak...meaning Russia isn't really a threat.

It doesn't make sense.

---

What doesn't make sense is how Americans today don't understand how freedom is won. We have a bunch of cowards that would fold at the first sign of any Russian threat to us.

You defend your country. If you don't defend your country you don't deserve to keep it. Ukraine is deserving it.

---

What is this massive Russian threat you speak of?

They have lost 40% of their territory since 1990 and half their population (at least if we are saying that the USSR was Russia)

Red army tanks used to be in Germany.....now they can not even be stationed in Estonia.

I can't tell if some of you guys are stuck in a 1980s cold war mentality or you just have a heightened threat response and are hysterics.

There is no current "threat" to take over the USA from Russia or China....they can't even successfully take over states right next to them (Ukraine-Taiwan) much less cross the great oceans to take on the USA.

The real invasion of our country is going on right now as the 3rd world invades our borders and colonizes us.

And yet I don't hear most of yall complaining about that.

FLBear5630 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Most of the pro war arguments I'm hearing is that we should use this war to weaken Russia because they're a threat while simultaneously saying that Ukraine is going to win because Russia is so weak...meaning Russia isn't really a threat.

It doesn't make sense.

---

What doesn't make sense is how Americans today don't understand how freedom is won. We have a bunch of cowards that would fold at the first sign of any Russian threat to us.

You defend your country. If you don't defend your country you don't deserve to keep it. Ukraine is deserving it.

---

So, I am not sure they would support a fight to defend US territory. I would say they would concede Hawaii, Guam, Wake Island, Puerto Rico and American Samoa in a moment.

---

lol I love these kinds of statements...quality entertainment.

If you can not see the difference between not getting involved in proxy war conflicts around the planet vs defending actual USA territory then I don't know how to talk to you. The whole statement is even more insane when you realize that the USA ruling class is actively ceding the entire Southwest of the United States, Texas, and large parts of the Mountain West to the 3rd world of Latin America right now! As we speak.

And who do you think is gonna try and take Puerto Rico and Hawaii from us? Cuba gonna invade Puerto Rico? lol or maybe a neo-Japanese empire is gonna take Hawaii?

We have the largest military on earth and a two ocean navy....we are actively building a MASSIVE fleet of 10 new nuclear powered aircraft carriers....each one costs $13 Billion dollars. By 2050 China might have 3-4 and they will all be diesel carriers. Russia right now has 1 (and it keeps breaking down).

No foreign power even has the ability to take our territory and they would be vaporized if they tried.

If you wanna take over the USA you have to help corrupt its already corrupt and sclerotic two political system then send your poor peasants to colonize it just like everyone else.

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Most of the pro war arguments I'm hearing is that we should use this war to weaken Russia because they're a threat while simultaneously saying that Ukraine is going to win because Russia is so weak...meaning Russia isn't really a threat.

It doesn't make sense.

---

What doesn't make sense is how Americans today don't understand how freedom is won. We have a bunch of cowards that would fold at the first sign of any Russian threat to us.

You defend your country. If you don't defend your country you don't deserve to keep it. Ukraine is deserving it.

---

So, I am not sure they would support a fight to defend US territory. I would say they would concede Hawaii, Guam, Wake Island, Puerto Rico and American Samoa in a moment.

---

lol I love these kinds of statements...quality entertainment.

If you can not see the difference between not getting involved in proxy war conflicts around the planet vs defending actual USA territory then I don't know how to talk to you. The whole statement is even more insane when you realize that the USA ruling class is actively ceding the entire Southwest of the United States, Texas, and large parts of the Mountain West to the 3rd world of Latin America right now! As we speak.

And who do you think is gonna try and take Puerto Rico and Hawaii from us? Cuba gonna invade Puerto Rico? lol or maybe a neo-Japanese empire is gonna take Hawaii?

We have the largest military on earth and a two ocean navy....we are actively building a MASSIVE fleet of 10 new nuclear powered aircraft carriers....each one costs $13 Billion dollars. By 2050 China might have 3-4 and they will all be diesel carriers. Russia right now has 1 (and it keeps breaking down).

No foreign power even has the ability to take our territory and they would be vaporized if they tried.

If you wanna take over the USA you have to help corrupt its already corrupt and sclerotic two political system then send your poor peasants to colonize it just like everyone else.

---

Has nothing to do with a proxy war.

It has to do with views on the Southern States having the right to leave and the Civil War a mistake that Lincoln overstepped his authority. And, the view that the US should stay out of helping nations such as Ukraine and Taiwan to keep Russia and China happy.

So, yes I believe you would give the Pacific Islands to China if they threatened to go nuclear.

That is your right as an American.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Most of the pro war arguments I'm hearing is that we should use this war to weaken Russia because they're a threat while simultaneously saying that Ukraine is going to win because Russia is so weak...meaning Russia isn't really a threat.

It doesn't make sense.

---

What doesn't make sense is how Americans today don't understand how freedom is won. We have a bunch of cowards that would fold at the first sign of any Russian threat to us.

You defend your country. If you don't defend your country you don't deserve to keep it. Ukraine is deserving it.

---

So, I am not sure they would support a fight to defend US territory. I would say they would concede Hawaii, Guam, Wake Island, Puerto Rico and American Samoa in a moment.

---

lol I love these kinds of statements...quality entertainment.

If you can not see the difference between not getting involved in proxy war conflicts around the planet vs defending actual USA territory then I don't know how to talk to you. The whole statement is even more insane when you realize that the USA ruling class is actively ceding the entire Southwest of the United States, Texas, and large parts of the Mountain West to the 3rd world of Latin America right now! As we speak.

And who do you think is gonna try and take Puerto Rico and Hawaii from us? Cuba gonna invade Puerto Rico? lol or maybe a neo-Japanese empire is gonna take Hawaii?

We have the largest military on earth and a two ocean navy....we are actively building a MASSIVE fleet of 10 new nuclear powered aircraft carriers....each one costs $13 Billion dollars. By 2050 China might have 3-4 and they will all be diesel carriers. Russia right now has 1 (and it keeps breaking down).

No foreign power even has the ability to take our territory and they would be vaporized if they tried.

If you wanna take over the USA you have to help corrupt its already corrupt and sclerotic two political system then send your poor peasants to colonize it just like everyone else.

---

Has nothing to do with a proxy war.

It has to do with views on the British winning or preventing the Revolutionary War would have been better. The views on the Southern States having the right to leave and the Civil War a mistake that Lincoln overstepped his authority. And, the view that the US should stay out of helping nations such as Ukraine and Taiwan to keep Russia and China happy.

So, yes I believe you would give the Pacific Islands to China if they threatened to go nuclear.

That is your right as an American.

---

What are you talking about?

I am 100% in favor of the American States seceding from the UK and becoming independent.

And yes all States (even if they are Southern) have a right to independence.

I literally have no idea where you got the notion that I am against American independence.

Is anyone on this site against American independence?

Did you just make that up in your head because you certainly can not find anywhere on this site where I said that?

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Most of the pro war arguments I'm hearing is that we should use this war to weaken Russia because they're a threat while simultaneously saying that Ukraine is going to win because Russia is so weak...meaning Russia isn't really a threat.

It doesn't make sense.

---

What doesn't make sense is how Americans today don't understand how freedom is won. We have a bunch of cowards that would fold at the first sign of any Russian threat to us.

You defend your country. If you don't defend your country you don't deserve to keep it. Ukraine is deserving it.

---

So, I am not sure they would support a fight to defend US territory. I would say they would concede Hawaii, Guam, Wake Island, Puerto Rico and American Samoa in a moment.

---

lol I love these kinds of statements...quality entertainment.

If you can not see the difference between not getting involved in proxy war conflicts around the planet vs defending actual USA territory then I don't know how to talk to you. The whole statement is even more insane when you realize that the USA ruling class is actively ceding the entire Southwest of the United States, Texas, and large parts of the Mountain West to the 3rd world of Latin America right now! As we speak.

And who do you think is gonna try and take Puerto Rico and Hawaii from us? Cuba gonna invade Puerto Rico? lol or maybe a neo-Japanese empire is gonna take Hawaii?

We have the largest military on earth and a two ocean navy....we are actively building a MASSIVE fleet of 10 new nuclear powered aircraft carriers....each one costs $13 Billion dollars. By 2050 China might have 3-4 and they will all be diesel carriers. Russia right now has 1 (and it keeps breaking down).

No foreign power even has the ability to take our territory and they would be vaporized if they tried.

If you wanna take over the USA you have to help corrupt its already corrupt and sclerotic two political system then send your poor peasants to colonize it just like everyone else.

---

Has nothing to do with a proxy war.

It has to do with views on the British winning or preventing the Revolutionary War would have been better. The views on the Southern States having the right to leave and the Civil War a mistake that Lincoln overstepped his authority. And, the view that the US should stay out of helping nations such as Ukraine and Taiwan to keep Russia and China happy.

So, yes I believe you would give the Pacific Islands to China if they threatened to go nuclear.

That is your right as an American.

---

What are you talking about?

I am 100% in favor of the American States seceding from the UK and becoming independent.

And yes all States (even if they are Southern) have a right to independence.

I literally have no idea where you got the notion that I am against American independence.

Is anyone on this site against American independence?

Did you just make that up in your head because you certainly can not find anywhere on this site where I said that?

---

Ok, then I stand corrected on that point.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Most of the pro war arguments I'm hearing is that we should use this war to weaken Russia because they're a threat while simultaneously saying that Ukraine is going to win because Russia is so weak...meaning Russia isn't really a threat.

It doesn't make sense.

---

What doesn't make sense is how Americans today don't understand how freedom is won. We have a bunch of cowards that would fold at the first sign of any Russian threat to us.

You defend your country. If you don't defend your country you don't deserve to keep it. Ukraine is deserving it.

---

So, I am not sure they would support a fight to defend US territory. I would say they would concede Hawaii, Guam, Wake Island, Puerto Rico and American Samoa in a moment.

---

lol I love these kinds of statements...quality entertainment.

If you can not see the difference between not getting involved in proxy war conflicts around the planet vs defending actual USA territory then I don't know how to talk to you. The whole statement is even more insane when you realize that the USA ruling class is actively ceding the entire Southwest of the United States, Texas, and large parts of the Mountain West to the 3rd world of Latin America right now! As we speak.

And who do you think is gonna try and take Puerto Rico and Hawaii from us? Cuba gonna invade Puerto Rico? lol or maybe a neo-Japanese empire is gonna take Hawaii?

We have the largest military on earth and a two ocean navy....we are actively building a MASSIVE fleet of 10 new nuclear powered aircraft carriers....each one costs $13 Billion dollars. By 2050 China might have 3-4 and they will all be diesel carriers. Russia right now has 1 (and it keeps breaking down).

No foreign power even has the ability to take our territory and they would be vaporized if they tried.

If you wanna take over the USA you have to help corrupt its already corrupt and sclerotic two political system then send your poor peasants to colonize it just like everyone else.

---

Has nothing to do with a proxy war.

It has to do with views on the British winning or preventing the Revolutionary War would have been better. The views on the Southern States having the right to leave and the Civil War a mistake that Lincoln overstepped his authority. And, the view that the US should stay out of helping nations such as Ukraine and Taiwan to keep Russia and China happy.

So, yes I believe you would give the Pacific Islands to China if they threatened to go nuclear.

That is your right as an American.

---

What are you talking about?

I am 100% in favor of the American States seceding from the UK and becoming independent.

And yes all States (even if they are Southern) have a right to independence.

I literally have no idea where you got the notion that I am against American independence.

Is anyone on this site against American independence?

Did you just make that up in your head because you certainly can not find anywhere on this site where I said that?

---

You didn't exalt the British system and say that if we waited 100 years they would have taken care of slavery with no bloodshed and we would have been like Canada, which is according to your view a much better Nation to live?

Ok, then I stand corrected on that point.

---

I don't even remember saying anything about how we would be like Canada or put some kind of 100 year time frame on slavery.

100 years from when? 1776? 1865?

I think you are confusing me for someone else.

The only time frame around slavery I have ever pointed out is that Brazil (had more slaves and more slave dependent) got rid of it without bloodshed by 1888.

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Most of the pro war arguments I'm hearing is that we should use this war to weaken Russia because they're a threat while simultaneously saying that Ukraine is going to win because Russia is so weak...meaning Russia isn't really a threat.

It doesn't make sense.

---

What doesn't make sense is how Americans today don't understand how freedom is won. We have a bunch of cowards that would fold at the first sign of any Russian threat to us.

You defend your country. If you don't defend your country you don't deserve to keep it. Ukraine is deserving it.

---

So, I am not sure they would support a fight to defend US territory. I would say they would concede Hawaii, Guam, Wake Island, Puerto Rico and American Samoa in a moment.

---

lol I love these kinds of statements...quality entertainment.

If you can not see the difference between not getting involved in proxy war conflicts around the planet vs defending actual USA territory then I don't know how to talk to you. The whole statement is even more insane when you realize that the USA ruling class is actively ceding the entire Southwest of the United States, Texas, and large parts of the Mountain West to the 3rd world of Latin America right now! As we speak.

And who do you think is gonna try and take Puerto Rico and Hawaii from us? Cuba gonna invade Puerto Rico? lol or maybe a neo-Japanese empire is gonna take Hawaii?

We have the largest military on earth and a two ocean navy....we are actively building a MASSIVE fleet of 10 new nuclear powered aircraft carriers....each one costs $13 Billion dollars. By 2050 China might have 3-4 and they will all be diesel carriers. Russia right now has 1 (and it keeps breaking down).

No foreign power even has the ability to take our territory and they would be vaporized if they tried.

If you wanna take over the USA you have to help corrupt its already corrupt and sclerotic two political system then send your poor peasants to colonize it just like everyone else.

---

Has nothing to do with a proxy war.

It has to do with views on the British winning or preventing the Revolutionary War would have been better. The views on the Southern States having the right to leave and the Civil War a mistake that Lincoln overstepped his authority. And, the view that the US should stay out of helping nations such as Ukraine and Taiwan to keep Russia and China happy.

So, yes I believe you would give the Pacific Islands to China if they threatened to go nuclear.

That is your right as an American.

---

What are you talking about?

I am 100% in favor of the American States seceding from the UK and becoming independent.

And yes all States (even if they are Southern) have a right to independence.

I literally have no idea where you got the notion that I am against American independence.

Is anyone on this site against American independence?

Did you just make that up in your head because you certainly can not find anywhere on this site where I said that?

---

You didn't exalt the British system and say that if we waited 100 years they would have taken care of slavery with no bloodshed and we would have been like Canada, which is according to your view a much better Nation to live?

Ok, then I stand corrected on that point.

---

I don't even remember saying anything about how we would be like Canada or put some kind of 100 year time frame on slavery.

100 years from when? 1776? 1865?

I think you are confusing me for someone else.

The only time frame around slavery I have ever pointed out is that Brazil (had more slaves and more slave dependent) got rid of it without bloodshed by 1888.

---

I am sorry, I mistook your post for KaiBear. I will erase.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

---

Putin will use that until he can't. The NATO pulling its support just gives Putin what he wants and he will take it all. Putin has no moral compass. If we are stupid enough to play a common sense win/win game with Putin, he will take everything he can. Only way to deal with Putin is keep him on his back foot, which is physically. It is all he understands.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

---

Putin will use that until he can't. The NATO pulling its support just gives Putin what he wants and he will take it all. Putin has no moral compass. If we are stupid enough to play a common sense win/win game with Putin, he will take everything he can. Only way to deal with Putin is keep him on his back foot, which is physically. It is all he understands.

---

If we're stupid enough not to play a common sense win/win game, Putin will take everything he can. And clearly we are that stupid.

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

---

Putin will use that until he can't. The NATO pulling its support just gives Putin what he wants and he will take it all. Putin has no moral compass. If we are stupid enough to play a common sense win/win game with Putin, he will take everything he can. Only way to deal with Putin is keep him on his back foot, which is physically. It is all he understands.

---

If we're stupid enough not to play a common sense win/win game, Putin will take everything he can. And clearly we are that stupid.

---

You have to read the room. Putin is not operating from the same moral compass, set of values or necessary expectations as the West. If you approach him from our perspective, it will be bad.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

---

Putin will use that until he can't. The NATO pulling its support just gives Putin what he wants and he will take it all. Putin has no moral compass. If we are stupid enough to play a common sense win/win game with Putin, he will take everything he can. Only way to deal with Putin is keep him on his back foot, which is physically. It is all he understands.

---

If we're stupid enough not to play a common sense win/win game, Putin will take everything he can. And clearly we are that stupid.

---

You have to read the room. Putin is not operating from the same moral compass, set of values or necessary expectations as the West.

---

That may be true, though certainly not in the way that you mean. Putin spent years looking for a peaceful solution. The West wasn't interested. It's difficult to see any kind of moral values behind what we're doing at all.

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

---

Putin will use that until he can't. The NATO pulling its support just gives Putin what he wants and he will take it all. Putin has no moral compass. If we are stupid enough to play a common sense win/win game with Putin, he will take everything he can. Only way to deal with Putin is keep him on his back foot, which is physically. It is all he understands.

---

If we're stupid enough not to play a common sense win/win game, Putin will take everything he can. And clearly we are that stupid.

---

You have to read the room. Putin is not operating from the same moral compass, set of values or necessary expectations as the West.

---

That may be true, though certainly not in the way that you mean. Putin spent years looking for a peaceful solution. The West wasn't interested. It's difficult to see any kind of moral values behind what we're doing at all.

---

Come on, peaceful is giving him Crimea and Donbas, Ukraine never join the EU or NATO and relitigate the end of the Cold War. Do that and he will be happy and stop raining missiles.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

---

Putin will use that until he can't. The NATO pulling its support just gives Putin what he wants and he will take it all. Putin has no moral compass. If we are stupid enough to play a common sense win/win game with Putin, he will take everything he can. Only way to deal with Putin is keep him on his back foot, which is physically. It is all he understands.

---

If we're stupid enough not to play a common sense win/win game, Putin will take everything he can. And clearly we are that stupid.

---

You have to read the room. Putin is not operating from the same moral compass, set of values or necessary expectations as the West.

---

That may be true, though certainly not in the way that you mean. Putin spent years looking for a peaceful solution. The West wasn't interested. It's difficult to see any kind of moral values behind what we're doing at all.

---

Come on, peaceful is giving him Crimea and Donbas, Ukraine never join the EU or NATO and relitigate the end of the Cold War. Do that and he will be happy and stop raining missiles.

---

Re-litigate the end of the Cold War is exactly what the West is trying to do. Ukraine already agreed to neutral status when it left the Soviet Union.

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

---

Putin will use that until he can't. The NATO pulling its support just gives Putin what he wants and he will take it all. Putin has no moral compass. If we are stupid enough to play a common sense win/win game with Putin, he will take everything he can. Only way to deal with Putin is keep him on his back foot, which is physically. It is all he understands.

---

If we're stupid enough not to play a common sense win/win game, Putin will take everything he can. And clearly we are that stupid.

---

You have to read the room. Putin is not operating from the same moral compass, set of values or necessary expectations as the West.

---

That may be true, though certainly not in the way that you mean. Putin spent years looking for a peaceful solution. The West wasn't interested. It's difficult to see any kind of moral values behind what we're doing at all.

---

Come on, peaceful is giving him Crimea and Donbas, Ukraine never join the EU or NATO and relitigate the end of the Cold War. Do that and he will be happy and stop raining missiles.

---

Re-litigate the end of the Cold War is exactly what the West is trying to do. Ukraine already agreed to neutral status when it left the Soviet Union.

---

over 30 years ago! They are condemned to the ****ty Russian economy forever?

NATO never agreed to not expand. There is less evidence for your claim than for the Budapect Memorandum, which does exist but you argued was non-binding. There is no agreement saying that NATO will not expand.

You are mistaking the discussion of the reunification of Germany for NATO as a whole. Baker said Germany wouldn't expand one inch east if Germany was in NATO and the US could ensure it didn't happen. That was the Russian fear of an independent Germany, like in WW1 and WW2.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

---

Putin will use that until he can't. The NATO pulling its support just gives Putin what he wants and he will take it all. Putin has no moral compass. If we are stupid enough to play a common sense win/win game with Putin, he will take everything he can. Only way to deal with Putin is keep him on his back foot, which is physically. It is all he understands.

---

If we're stupid enough not to play a common sense win/win game, Putin will take everything he can. And clearly we are that stupid.

---

You have to read the room. Putin is not operating from the same moral compass, set of values or necessary expectations as the West.

---

That may be true, though certainly not in the way that you mean. Putin spent years looking for a peaceful solution. The West wasn't interested. It's difficult to see any kind of moral values behind what we're doing at all.

---

Come on, peaceful is giving him Crimea and Donbas, Ukraine never join the EU or NATO and relitigate the end of the Cold War. Do that and he will be happy and stop raining missiles.

---

Re-litigate the end of the Cold War is exactly what the West is trying to do. Ukraine already agreed to neutral status when it left the Soviet Union.

---

over 30 years ago! They are condemned to the ****ty Russian economy forever?

NATO never agreed to not expand. There is less evidence for your claim than for the Budapect Memorandum, which does exist but you argued was non-binding. There is no agreement saying that NATO will not expand.

You are mistaking the discussion of the reunification of Germany for NATO as a whole. Baker said Germany wouldn't expand one inch east if Germany was in NATO and the US could ensure it didn't happen. That was the Russian fear of an independent Germany, like in WW1 and WW2.

---

I'm not the one arguing that the Budapest Memorandum is non-binding. That's the position of the US government. It was Russia and Ukraine who agreed to Ukraine's neutrality as a term of withdrawal from the Soviet Union.

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

---

Putin will use that until he can't. The NATO pulling its support just gives Putin what he wants and he will take it all. Putin has no moral compass. If we are stupid enough to play a common sense win/win game with Putin, he will take everything he can. Only way to deal with Putin is keep him on his back foot, which is physically. It is all he understands.

---

If we're stupid enough not to play a common sense win/win game, Putin will take everything he can. And clearly we are that stupid.

---

You have to read the room. Putin is not operating from the same moral compass, set of values or necessary expectations as the West.

---

That may be true, though certainly not in the way that you mean. Putin spent years looking for a peaceful solution. The West wasn't interested. It's difficult to see any kind of moral values behind what we're doing at all.

---

Come on, peaceful is giving him Crimea and Donbas, Ukraine never join the EU or NATO and relitigate the end of the Cold War. Do that and he will be happy and stop raining missiles.

---

Re-litigate the end of the Cold War is exactly what the West is trying to do. Ukraine already agreed to neutral status when it left the Soviet Union.

---

over 30 years ago! They are condemned to the ****ty Russian economy forever?

NATO never agreed to not expand. There is less evidence for your claim than for the Budapect Memorandum, which does exist but you argued was non-binding. There is no agreement saying that NATO will not expand.

You are mistaking the discussion of the reunification of Germany for NATO as a whole. Baker said Germany wouldn't expand one inch east if Germany was in NATO and the US could ensure it didn't happen. That was the Russian fear of an independent Germany, like in WW1 and WW2.

---

I'm not the one arguing that the Budapest Memorandum is non-binding. That's the position of the US government. It was Russia and Ukraine who agreed to Ukraine's neutrality as a term of withdrawal from the Soviet Union.

---

The two are intertwined. Ukraine gave up the Nukes because NATO said it would protect Ukraine from this exact scenario. So, if the Budapest Memorandum is not binding for defense, neutrality is null and void when Russia invaded. Russia nullified any agreements when it took Crimea and Obama let them.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

---

Putin will use that until he can't. The NATO pulling its support just gives Putin what he wants and he will take it all. Putin has no moral compass. If we are stupid enough to play a common sense win/win game with Putin, he will take everything he can. Only way to deal with Putin is keep him on his back foot, which is physically. It is all he understands.

---

If we're stupid enough not to play a common sense win/win game, Putin will take everything he can. And clearly we are that stupid.

---

You have to read the room. Putin is not operating from the same moral compass, set of values or necessary expectations as the West.

---

That may be true, though certainly not in the way that you mean. Putin spent years looking for a peaceful solution. The West wasn't interested. It's difficult to see any kind of moral values behind what we're doing at all.

---

Come on, peaceful is giving him Crimea and Donbas, Ukraine never join the EU or NATO and relitigate the end of the Cold War. Do that and he will be happy and stop raining missiles.

---

Re-litigate the end of the Cold War is exactly what the West is trying to do. Ukraine already agreed to neutral status when it left the Soviet Union.

---

over 30 years ago! They are condemned to the ****ty Russian economy forever?

NATO never agreed to not expand. There is less evidence for your claim than for the Budapect Memorandum, which does exist but you argued was non-binding. There is no agreement saying that NATO will not expand.

You are mistaking the discussion of the reunification of Germany for NATO as a whole. Baker said Germany wouldn't expand one inch east if Germany was in NATO and the US could ensure it didn't happen. That was the Russian fear of an independent Germany, like in WW1 and WW2.

---

I'm not the one arguing that the Budapest Memorandum is non-binding. That's the position of the US government. It was Russia and Ukraine who agreed to Ukraine's neutrality as a term of withdrawal from the Soviet Union.

---

The two are intertwined. Ukraine gave up the Nukes because NATO said it would protect Ukraine from this exact scenario. So, if the Budapest Memorandum is not binding for defense, neutrality is null and void when Russia invaded. Russia nullified any agreements when it took Crimea and Obama let them.

---

The Russians would argue that Ukraine violated neutrality long before that, by seeking membership in NATO. But all of this is academic. It's clear now that Russia won't tolerate Ukraine's joining. Even Western leaders are beginning to understand this, which is why they punted at the 2023 summit.

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

---

Putin will use that until he can't. The NATO pulling its support just gives Putin what he wants and he will take it all. Putin has no moral compass. If we are stupid enough to play a common sense win/win game with Putin, he will take everything he can. Only way to deal with Putin is keep him on his back foot, which is physically. It is all he understands.

---

If we're stupid enough not to play a common sense win/win game, Putin will take everything he can. And clearly we are that stupid.

---

You have to read the room. Putin is not operating from the same moral compass, set of values or necessary expectations as the West.

---

That may be true, though certainly not in the way that you mean. Putin spent years looking for a peaceful solution. The West wasn't interested. It's difficult to see any kind of moral values behind what we're doing at all.

---

Come on, peaceful is giving him Crimea and Donbas, Ukraine never join the EU or NATO and relitigate the end of the Cold War. Do that and he will be happy and stop raining missiles.

---

Re-litigate the end of the Cold War is exactly what the West is trying to do. Ukraine already agreed to neutral status when it left the Soviet Union.

---

over 30 years ago! They are condemned to the ****ty Russian economy forever?

NATO never agreed to not expand. There is less evidence for your claim than for the Budapect Memorandum, which does exist but you argued was non-binding. There is no agreement saying that NATO will not expand.

You are mistaking the discussion of the reunification of Germany for NATO as a whole. Baker said Germany wouldn't expand one inch east if Germany was in NATO and the US could ensure it didn't happen. That was the Russian fear of an independent Germany, like in WW1 and WW2.

---

I'm not the one arguing that the Budapest Memorandum is non-binding. That's the position of the US government. It was Russia and Ukraine who agreed to Ukraine's neutrality as a term of withdrawal from the Soviet Union.

---

The two are intertwined. Ukraine gave up the Nukes because NATO said it would protect Ukraine from this exact scenario. So, if the Budapest Memorandum is not binding for defense, neutrality is null and void when Russia invaded. Russia nullified any agreements when it took Crimea and Obama let them.

---

The Russians would argue that Ukraine violated neutrality long before that, by seeking membership in NATO. But all of this is academic. It's clear now that Russia won't tolerate Ukraine's joining. Even Western leaders are beginning to understand this, which is why they punted at the 2023 summit.

---

No, they can't let Ukraine in NATO until war is over. NATO is not going to war with Russia, no matter what some on here say. Once it is over, I will bet Ukraine is in NATO. I think it will be without Donbas and Crimea.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

we are investing none of our blood and mostly only treasure scheduled for the scrap heap, so we are mostly meeting your requirements so that Ukraine may indeed have all the sovereignty it wants.

---

If Ukraine says we are negotiating today and do not need NATO's material help (there are no manpower assistance), it stops. This is not a US initiated action, Russia invaded, Ukraine ASKED for help. It ends today is Russia leaves or Ukraine gives up.

---

Russia sees this as a US action whether you do or not. That means they're unlikely to take a deal that doesn't bind America as well. Ukraine basically has no choice but to fight until we call it off or their army collapses.

---

Putin will use that until he can't. The NATO pulling its support just gives Putin what he wants and he will take it all. Putin has no moral compass. If we are stupid enough to play a common sense win/win game with Putin, he will take everything he can. Only way to deal with Putin is keep him on his back foot, which is physically. It is all he understands.

---

If we're stupid enough not to play a common sense win/win game, Putin will take everything he can. And clearly we are that stupid.

---

You have to read the room. Putin is not operating from the same moral compass, set of values or necessary expectations as the West.

---

That may be true, though certainly not in the way that you mean. Putin spent years looking for a peaceful solution. The West wasn't interested. It's difficult to see any kind of moral values behind what we're doing at all.

---

Come on, peaceful is giving him Crimea and Donbas, Ukraine never join the EU or NATO and relitigate the end of the Cold War. Do that and he will be happy and stop raining missiles.

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Re-litigate the end of the Cold War is exactly what the West is trying to do. Ukraine already agreed to neutral status when it left the Soviet Union.

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over 30 years ago! They are condemned to the ****ty Russian economy forever?

NATO never agreed to not expand. There is less evidence for your claim than for the Budapect Memorandum, which does exist but you argued was non-binding. There is no agreement saying that NATO will not expand.

You are mistaking the discussion of the reunification of Germany for NATO as a whole. Baker said Germany wouldn't expand one inch east if Germany was in NATO and the US could ensure it didn't happen. That was the Russian fear of an independent Germany, like in WW1 and WW2.

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I'm not the one arguing that the Budapest Memorandum is non-binding. That's the position of the US government. It was Russia and Ukraine who agreed to Ukraine's neutrality as a term of withdrawal from the Soviet Union.

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The two are intertwined. Ukraine gave up the Nukes because NATO said it would protect Ukraine from this exact scenario. So, if the Budapest Memorandum is not binding for defense, neutrality is null and void when Russia invaded. Russia nullified any agreements when it took Crimea and Obama let them.

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The Russians would argue that Ukraine violated neutrality long before that, by seeking membership in NATO. But all of this is academic. It's clear now that Russia won't tolerate Ukraine's joining. Even Western leaders are beginning to understand this, which is why they punted at the 2023 summit.

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No, they can't let Ukraine in NATO until war is over. NATO is not going to war with Russia, no matter what some on here say. Once it is over, I will bet Ukraine is in NATO. I think it will be without Donbas and Crimea.

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But why without Donbas and Crimea?

Have we not been endlessly told by Western corporate media that the great Ukrainian spring offensive along with billions in American arms would drive the Ruskie-Nazi scum out of the country by harvest time?

Have they been lying to us?

I mean they told us the Afghan army would last longer than 6 weeks but surely they are not lying about this…

Doc Holliday said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Most of the pro war arguments I'm hearing is that we should use this war to weaken Russia because they're a threat while simultaneously saying that Ukraine is going to win because Russia is so weak...meaning Russia isn't really a threat.

It doesn't make sense.

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What doesn't make sense is how Americans today don't understand how freedom is won. We have a bunch of cowards that would fold at the first sign of any Russian threat to us.

You defend your country. If you don't defend your country you don't deserve to keep it. Ukraine is deserving it.

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By what measure is Ukraine 'sovereign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?
How can one fight for freedom in a country without freedom of speech, religion or ability to vote?
People have been fleeing Ukraine for the last 50 years...a lot of people.

Future domestic resistance is getting annihilated and eventually Ukraine will get surrendered. They're getting Native American'ized. Blackrock and JP Morgan will help Ukraine launch a recovery bank to raise hundreds of billions of reconstruction money and own all their market share: divvying up the spoils of war.

Lets discuss the brutal truth behind this instead of the Hollywood version.

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I'm not surprised you don't know anything about Ukraine. I'm a little surprised you don't know anything about US history. It started off with people fighting for freedom that had nothing on that list and most of the history continued with people fighting for freedom that weren't eligible to vote.