Why Are We in Ukraine?

415,110 Views | 6279 Replies | Last: 18 min ago by The_barBEARian
Redbrickbear
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ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Post 9/11 wars were a mistake, IMO, with the possible exception of Afghanistan, had it been handled correctly. But the link you posted said that the wars have contributed to 4.5 million deaths,

I am certainly willing have to have discussion about if the well intentioned aims were worth the human suffering (and the failures)

But I think I am just shocked at people like ATL (and others on this forum) who still won't admit the massive DC lead mistakes of the past 25 years....and seem to have memory holed the human deaths.

Its like it never happened at all!

Or worse pretend that pointing out these deaths or mistakes is an "attack on the USA"


What you seem to be blind to is that almost every time something is brought up about Russia, you are right there with some US whataboutism, regardless of relevance.



Well there is your logic problem right there

You think comparisons of death tolls in regime change wars of choice are "whataboutism" (lol did you just learn that term)

And you continue to confuse State/government with Nation
ATL Bear
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Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Post 9/11 wars were a mistake, IMO, with the possible exception of Afghanistan, had it been handled correctly. But the link you posted said that the wars have contributed to 4.5 million deaths,

I am certainly willing have to have discussion about if the well intentioned aims were worth the human suffering (and the failures)

But I think I am just shocked at people like ATL (and others on this forum) who still won't admit the massive DC lead mistakes of the past 25 years....and seem to have memory holed the human deaths.

Its like it never happened at all!

Or worse pretend that pointing out these deaths or mistakes is an "attack on the USA"


What you seem to be blind to is that almost every time something is brought up about Russia, you are right there with some US whataboutism, regardless of relevance.



Well there is your logic problem right there

You think comparisons of death tolls in regime change wars of choice are "whataboutism" (lol did you just learn that term)

And you continue to confuse State/government with Nation
Well, you'll have to enlighten me on how you have a nation without a state/government.

And you're apples and cucumbers with your answers and comparisons with your last two replies.
Redbrickbear
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ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Post 9/11 wars were a mistake, IMO, with the possible exception of Afghanistan, had it been handled correctly. But the link you posted said that the wars have contributed to 4.5 million deaths,

I am certainly willing have to have discussion about if the well intentioned aims were worth the human suffering (and the failures)

But I think I am just shocked at people like ATL (and others on this forum) who still won't admit the massive DC lead mistakes of the past 25 years....and seem to have memory holed the human deaths.

Its like it never happened at all!

Or worse pretend that pointing out these deaths or mistakes is an "attack on the USA"


What you seem to be blind to is that almost every time something is brought up about Russia, you are right there with some US whataboutism, regardless of relevance.



Well there is your logic problem right there

You think comparisons of death tolls in regime change wars of choice are "whataboutism" (lol did you just learn that term)

And you continue to confuse State/government with Nation
Well, you'll have to enlighten me on how you have a nation without a state/government.



Were Jews not a nation when they did not have a State or government?

For 2,000 years they were a nation and yet had no State and no government


ATL Bear
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Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Post 9/11 wars were a mistake, IMO, with the possible exception of Afghanistan, had it been handled correctly. But the link you posted said that the wars have contributed to 4.5 million deaths,

I am certainly willing have to have discussion about if the well intentioned aims were worth the human suffering (and the failures)

But I think I am just shocked at people like ATL (and others on this forum) who still won't admit the massive DC lead mistakes of the past 25 years....and seem to have memory holed the human deaths.

Its like it never happened at all!

Or worse pretend that pointing out these deaths or mistakes is an "attack on the USA"


What you seem to be blind to is that almost every time something is brought up about Russia, you are right there with some US whataboutism, regardless of relevance.



Well there is your logic problem right there

You think comparisons of death tolls in regime change wars of choice are "whataboutism" (lol did you just learn that term)

And you continue to confuse State/government with Nation
Well, you'll have to enlighten me on how you have a nation without a state/government.



Were Jews not a nation when they did not have a State or government?

For 2,000 years they were a nation and yet had no State and no government



No, they weren't. A religious tribe, yes.
Redbrickbear
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ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Post 9/11 wars were a mistake, IMO, with the possible exception of Afghanistan, had it been handled correctly. But the link you posted said that the wars have contributed to 4.5 million deaths,

I am certainly willing have to have discussion about if the well intentioned aims were worth the human suffering (and the failures)

But I think I am just shocked at people like ATL (and others on this forum) who still won't admit the massive DC lead mistakes of the past 25 years....and seem to have memory holed the human deaths.

Its like it never happened at all!

Or worse pretend that pointing out these deaths or mistakes is an "attack on the USA"


What you seem to be blind to is that almost every time something is brought up about Russia, you are right there with some US whataboutism, regardless of relevance.



Well there is your logic problem right there

You think comparisons of death tolls in regime change wars of choice are "whataboutism" (lol did you just learn that term)

And you continue to confuse State/government with Nation
Well, you'll have to enlighten me on how you have a nation without a state/government.



Were Jews not a nation when they did not have a State or government?

For 2,000 years they were a nation and yet had no State and no government



No, they weren't. A religious tribe, yes.


Yes, they were

[ Nation: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

Ex. a North American Indian people or confederation of peoples.]

Ethnos (from Greek: , lit. 'nation')

Redbrickbear
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ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Post 9/11 wars were a mistake, IMO, with the possible exception of Afghanistan, had it been handled correctly. But the link you posted said that the wars have contributed to 4.5 million deaths,

I am certainly willing have to have discussion about if the well intentioned aims were worth the human suffering (and the failures)

But I think I am just shocked at people like ATL (and others on this forum) who still won't admit the massive DC lead mistakes of the past 25 years....and seem to have memory holed the human deaths.

Its like it never happened at all!

Or worse pretend that pointing out these deaths or mistakes is an "attack on the USA"


What you seem to be blind to is that almost every time something is brought up about Russia, you are right there with some US whataboutism, regardless of relevance.



Well there is your logic problem right there

You think comparisons of death tolls in regime change wars of choice are "whataboutism" (lol did you just learn that term)

And you continue to confuse State/government with Nation
Well, you'll have to enlighten me on how you have a nation without a state/government.



Were Jews not a nation when they did not have a State or government?

For 2,000 years they were a nation and yet had no State and no government


No, they weren't. A religious tribe, yes.


Wrong again it's obvious they were a nation.…a nation without a state…but it's obvious you think a nation is something beyond a people of common descent, language, and culture

nation (n.)
c. 1300, nacioun, "a race of people, large group of people with common ancestry and language," from Old French nacion "birth, rank; descendants, relatives; country, homeland" (12c.) and directly from Latin nationem (nominative natio) "birth, origin; breed, stock, kind, species; race of people, tribe," literally "that which has been born," from natus, past participle of nasci
whiterock
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Mitch Blood Green said:

whiterock said:

Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

My friend, you have been deceived. While Putin may share some cultural beliefs with people who call themselves "Christians," he is no ally of Christianity in any way, shape or form. When you pass laws that outlaw evangelism outside of the church building, and severely restrict and penalize those who practice a faith other than the Russian Orthodoxy, that is in no way Christian. You might want to talk to some missionaries to Russia just to see how oppressive it's become.

The irony here is, you're defending a guy who is the antithesis of Christianity and democracy because he is an ally in the cultural war, yet constantly decry Trump because he's an anti-democratic despot, despite the fact he is also an ally in the cultural war and has achieved more in that battle than any Republican president before him. It's remarkable.
Evangelism is regulated, not outlawed. Russia recognizes the importance of all forms of Christianity, as well as Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism, not just Russian Orthodoxy. I disagree with many of their policies, but none of that is really relevant to the war.

I also recognize that Trump is a cultural ally and has done many good things. I'm not willing to support him any more because I actually care about democracy in this country. The irony is that you criticize others while still supporting Trump, despite his open assaults on the republic, as long as he furthers your cultural agenda.
Yes, there are a number of countries around the world that significantly impinge on Christianity in the guise of "regulation." But that wasn't the point. I took issue with your absurd position that Putin was an "ally" of Christianity. If by "ally" you mean he allows Christians to merely exist, well, sure, so long as of course they confine their beliefs to themselves and live in Russia (Ukraine is apparently a different matter altogether).

You're not willing to support Trump, but you will vociferously defend and support Putin for being a cultural ally. Is it because you are ethnocentric and only care about policies that personally affect you? Don't give a **** about the average every day Russian? We already know you couldn't give two ****s about the average Ukrainian, of course, so perhaps that's the case.

I would submit anyone who thinks there is any real danger Trump is going to overthrow democracy in our country is either a moron, or is all up in their emotions. There literally is zero chance Trump could come close to doing any of the things your little buddy Putin has done in Russia. Yet, you don't appear to care very much about winning the culture war here.
If Trump was going to end Democracy, he had four years to do it the first go-around. He was CIC of the entire military and federal apparatus. If he wanted to go full-Putin, he could have won the 2020 election 90-10, or he could have just made a few phone calls and dared anyone to throw him out.



That's not exactly true. He didn't have full control and he didn't know where the levers were.

He had "Party" control. But from day one, he didn't have the enablers he will have in a second term. He had people (generals, Secretaries of State, elected officials who checked him.

Today, he calls those people "weak", they call him dangerous.
lol. "48 months in office and he knew nothing, 4 years to learn how to prepare to suspend the Constitution and rule forever, but was clueless to pull it off. But now, after being subjected to 4 years of lawfare and no longer possessing the awesome powers of office, he knows everything and has all the right people in place to perfect a plan to destroy the Republic."

can you not see what a profoundly stupid comment that is?

whiterock
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KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. .


Do you have any reputable sources for these comments ?

Seems strange that such activities have not been blared throughout our media.
It's good propaganda, which of course is all Sam has to offer these days. The name "Ukraine Orthodox Church" sounds like a bona fide Ukrainian societal institution. Except the name is misleading. The UOC is the Ukrainian wing of the Moscow Patriate of the Russian Orthodox Church, which has staunchly supported Putin, Russian nationalism in general, and Russia's war against Ukraine specifically.

So the Govt. of Ukraine is not at all engaging in anti-Christian repression. It's closing down a patently subversive institution loyal to a foreign power which has invaded the country, i.e. an entirely logical thing for a nation at war to do.

The FCC would not have allowed Tokyo Rose and Lord Haw Haw to broadcast from within America, for obvious reasons
whiterock
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Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:


$16,000 per family for entitlements.


I'm not sure why you keep bringing up on here the out of control nature of Federal government spending.

Your opponents have agreed a hundred times on the need for DC to stop endlessly spending/printing money.

But for some reason you think out of control domestic spending will justify out of control foreign spending…

We can not afford our current entitlement programs and we sure as heck can not afford this proxy war
I keep bringing it up because we actually collect enough in taxes to cover our discretionary budgeted expenses, including special foreign aid packages, and even when we have a shortfall it is minuscule compared to our collections vs outlays to cover our mandatory spending (i.e. entitlements).
The ENTIRE budget for DOD in 2024 is $850 billion
The budget deficit for 2024 is $1.6 TRILLION

Ending ALL defense spending does not balance the budget.
Suggesting that military aid to Ukraine has a significant impact on the deficit is quite silly.

We spend 4x more money on clean energy subsidies than we are spending in Ukraine......


Sure, there is way too much money being spent on all kinds of things (ATL correctly points out the massive entitlement programs)


But that still does not answer why we needed to add another $90 billion to the debt on funding a stupid proxy war in far off Eastern Europe?
Because it is decidedly in our interest to deter open, aggressive, existential threats to NATO, particularly when the amounts required to do so are nominal when compared to the costs of not doing so.
whiterock
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sombear said:

A more accurate headline would be, "Islamic terrorism has contributed . . . ."
love the euphemistic turn of phrase "has contributed...."

Sunlight "has contributed" to hundreds of millions of deaths due to melanoma.
Water "has contributed" to hundreds of millions of deaths due to drowning.
Food "has contributed" to hundreds of millions of deaths due to obesity.
etc......
whiterock
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J.R. said:

Mothra said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. Or that Zelensky canceled elections and outlawed opposition parties. Or that he introduced a bill to ban the UOC outright. I could go on too.


False
So you were aware?
Putin does not support Christianity. He is everything that Christianity is not.
It's incredible to me that Sam is seriously attempting to make this argument. He is the same guy who was highly critical of Evangelicals who cozied up to Trump or called Trump a Christian.

Perhaps if Trump weren't American...
Trump is NO Christian. Anyone who thinks he is, is seriously delusional . Get your Bibles right here says the carnival barker. When asked if he had ever asked for forgiveness and Trumps said "NO". I don't need to. I think that puts his faith or lack of in perspective.
LOL google up "no true scotsman fallacy."
the dude lives rent free in your brain.
whiterock
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Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Post 9/11 wars were a mistake, IMO, with the possible exception of Afghanistan, had it been handled correctly. But the link you posted said that the wars have contributed to 4.5 million deaths,

I am certainly willing have to have discussion about if the well intentioned aims were worth the human suffering (and the failures)

But I think I am just shocked at people like ATL (and others on this forum) who still won't admit the massive DC lead mistakes of the past 25 years....and seem to have memory holed the human deaths.

Its like it never happened at all!

Or worse pretend that pointing out these deaths or mistakes is an "attack on the USA"


....the kind of pointless moralizing that occurs when one starts down the road of "has contributed to",....

Russia has contributed to every death that has occurred in Ukraine for the last 26 months, and that is a fairly substantial number.

To which we must add the deaths of a fair number of Russians as well.

So, yeah, given the soft edges of the scope chosen for analysis, Russia is well into 7-digits for "has contributed to" deaths of Europeans....

KaiBear
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whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. .


Do you have any reputable sources for these comments ?

Seems strange that such activities have not been blared throughout our media.
It's good propaganda, which of course is all Sam has to offer these days. The name "Ukraine Orthodox Church" sounds like a bona fide Ukrainian societal institution. Except the name is misleading. The UOC is the Ukrainian wing of the Moscow Patriate of the Russian Orthodox Church, which has staunchly supported Putin, Russian nationalism in general, and Russia's war against Ukraine specifically.

So the Govt. of Ukraine is not at all engaging in anti-Christian repression. It's closing down a patently subversive institution loyal to a foreign power which has invaded the country, i.e. an entirely logical thing for a nation at war to do.

The FCC would not have allowed Tokyo Rose and Lord Haw Haw to broadcast from within America, for obvious reasons


Thought provoking information.

Thank you .
whiterock
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Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Post 9/11 wars were a mistake, IMO, with the possible exception of Afghanistan, had it been handled correctly. But the link you posted said that the wars have contributed to 4.5 million deaths,

I am certainly willing have to have discussion about if the well intentioned aims were worth the human suffering (and the failures)

But I think I am just shocked at people like ATL (and others on this forum) who still won't admit the massive DC lead mistakes of the past 25 years....and seem to have memory holed the human deaths.

Its like it never happened at all!

Or worse pretend that pointing out these deaths or mistakes is an "attack on the USA"


What you seem to be blind to is that almost every time something is brought up about Russia, you are right there with some US whataboutism, regardless of relevance.



Well there is your logic problem right there

You think comparisons of death tolls in regime change wars of choice are "whataboutism" (lol did you just learn that term)

And you continue to confuse State/government with Nation
Well, you'll have to enlighten me on how you have a nation without a state/government.



Were Jews not a nation when they did not have a State or government?

For 2,000 years they were a nation and yet had no State and no government



As a simple matter of Political Geography 101, Redbrick is correct here. Colbert Held taught Political Geography when I was at Baylor. Typical State Dept worldview on the Arab/Israeli question, but a thoroughly experienced man with a gentlemanly demeanor.

"Nation" has a meaning discrete from "state." There are nations. There are states. And sometimes, there are Nation States. Jews, for quite a number of centuries, have been a nation. Today, Israel is a classic example of a nation state. Japan would be a nation state. America is not a nation state. No multi-cultural society could be.
whiterock
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UK MOD estimate of Russian Casualties.

Realitybites
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whiterock said:

UK MOD estimate of Russian Casualties.



The UK MOD's estimate of Russian Casualties is about as reliable as Pete Buttigieg's estimate of the reliability of the ATC system.
Realitybites
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Quote:

Sincere thanks for your effort providing this link.

However is this Tucker interview the sole source of Sam's comments including the murdering of priests ?

Seems kind of a slim reed.

Link to Article

"On January 2, an Orthodox church in Vinnytsia, Ukraine, was covered in blood. In the morning, a man burst into the church and turned the crucifix over, broke several icons, threw banners on the floor, and finally cut the priest's throat with a razor. A few days earlier, in the city of Chornomorsk, parishioners of an Orthodox church only at the last moment disarmed a man who was about to stab the priest with a knife. In the village of Chechelnyk, a man in camouflage brutally beat a priest right on the street, breaking his nose and shouting curses.

There is a backstory to the above. Stand-up comedians at Kvartal 95, the film studio co-founded by now President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, recently released a video where they obscenely insulted Orthodox priests and publicly wished them death. The video is a news parody in the style of The Daily Show that mocks the church and refers to its clergy as "Russian agents." Many experts see a direct connection between the appeals of the actors and the recent violence.

The target of all these attacks is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which used to be in unity with the Moscow Patriarchate but has had an independent and autonomous status for more than 30 years."

"In 1990, the Russian church granted full administrative independence to its Ukrainian bishops under the name of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Although many call it the "Moscow Patriarchate" by inertia, it is a completely independent structure in terms of governance. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church elects its primate and bishops on its own with no regard for Moscow. There is no "Moscow Patriarchate" in its official name.

The emergence of independent Ukraine in 1991 and the activation of Ukrainian nationalism plunged the Orthodox environment into turmoil. Filaret, the ruling bishop of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC), broke away from the church, with the help of the new Ukrainian authorities, and founded a new church structure, which he called the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyiv Patriarchate (UOC-KP). Several other priests founded another structure, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC).

The rest of world Orthodoxy never recognized these structures. The fact is that there are very strict rules called canons in the Orthodox Church. For ecclesiastical crimes, Filaret was in 1992 deprived of his episcopal dignity and of divine power in the performance of church sacraments. Even though Filaret continued to perform ordinations, baptisms, and church wedding ceremonies, the sacraments were invalid.

However, bishops, like all people, live in the modern world and are affected by outside influences. This is what happened with the head of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, Bartholomew.
In 2018, the multimillionaire and then president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko went to Istanbul to Patriarch Bartholomew and requested a legalization document (tomos) for the unrecognized Ukrainian churches, the UOC-KP and the UAOC. At the same time, pressure was put on the UOC so that it would join these breakaway structures.

The reason for Poroshenko's activity was simple. He was preparing for the presidential elections of 2019 and his program was anchored in three words: "army, language, faith."
Thus, at the end of 2018, Bartholomew revoked the act of 1686 transferring the Kyiv Metropolis to the Russian Church. He reinstated Filaret in his priesthood and retroactively recognized all rites performed by the anathematized metropolitan. The two churches were united under the name the "Orthodox Church of Ukraine" (OCU), and Filaret's disciple Epifaniy was elected as its head of the OCU. Poroshenko presided over this unification council like the emperor Constantine.
At that time, the UOC was twice as big as the OCU. Millions of Ukrainians call themselves parishioners of the UOC throughout the country.

However, this did not bother either Bartholomew or Poroshenko. The latter began to implement a campaign throughout the media where the UOC was called the "Moscow Church" and the OCU the "Ukrainian," although there are only Ukrainians in both denominations. The authorities arranged "transitions" of church communities from the UOC to the OCU. Everyone was invited to these transition meetingsCatholics, Protestants, atheistsdespite the fact that, according to the law, only members of the Orthodox parish are allowed to vote. The news in 2019 was full of photos and videos where church doors were broken open with a crowbar or cut off with an angle grinder.

If you think that the United States stood aside while this was unfolding, you are mistaken. The State Department and politicians of both parties carried out work to promote the new church. Two months before the creation of the OCU in 2018, Filaret and Epifaniy met in the United States with Joe Biden, who declared his gratitude for their work. State Department Ambassador for Religious Freedom Samuel Brownback, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and special representative for Ukraine Ambassador Kurt Volker declared their support for this project.

Immediately after its creation, the OCU received its first official congratulations from the State Department and the U.S. Embassy. At the same time, Ambassador Brownback and the U.S. ambassador to Greece, Geoffrey Pyattwho was also ambassador to Ukraine from 2013 to 2016visited church leaders and Mount Athos to urge them to recognize the OCU. Both Ambassador Volker and Secretary Pompeo met with Epifaniy many times. All facts indicate that the promotion of the OCU was part of U.S. policy in Ukraine.

Cathedrals and monasteries were searched by Ukrainian SBU officers, who reported that they allegedly found evidence of collaboration between bishops and priests of the UOC and the enemy. These findings were often ridiculous. Security officials exhibited photos of children's bibles, prayer books, old liturgical books, archival collections of newspapers and magazines featuring the words "Russian," and Christmas or Easter sermons of the Russian Church patriarch. In cases where there was nothing to find, the special services planted compromising evidence themselves.


For instance, in the church of Hlynsk village, near Rivne, the security services planted "enemy" leaflets while the pastor was busy purchasing cars for the Ukrainian army with money raised by his community. "I received a call from the headman, who said that he was not allowed into the temple. People from the SBU examined the church themselves, then called the headman and led him to the closet, where they took out two packs of leaflets, which they had put there on their own because there could not be postcards of such content in our church," rector priest Vasyl Nachev told us.

The true details of these searches are practically unknown to Ukrainians. Instead, it is widely reported in all media that the special services find much evidence of collaboration with the enemy in UOC churches. Thus the UOC is cast as an enemy in Ukrainian society, the consequences of which we described above."



The entire article is a good read, and debunks Whiterock's propaganda on the issue.


Unfortunately we're at a point in our society that it's safe to assume that when a government-american is speaking, they're lying. Why DC had such an interest in destabalizing the Orthodox church is still an open question. Perhaps they thought it was a good way to introduce additional divisions into Ukranian society for the war they had planned. Or perhaps - given the large number of homosexuals, trannies, and other deviants in our federal government - anger over the Orthdoox church's unrelenting stand against these disordered lifestyles led them to favor an atheistic jihad. Before you dismiss this possibility, understand that our utterly incompetent transportation secretary is in his position because he's gay, and our embassies fly the rainbow flag. Also don't disregard the fact that one of the "critical" actions the Zelensky government took in the middle of this ostensible war for democracy was legalizing gay marriage and forming a gay corps in the UAF. Or perhaps demonizing the UOC was a dry run at seeing how using the label of "Christian Nationalist" would work when they apply it to your church.
Redbrickbear
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whiterock said:

J.R. said:

Mothra said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. Or that Zelensky canceled elections and outlawed opposition parties. Or that he introduced a bill to ban the UOC outright. I could go on too.


False
So you were aware?
Putin does not support Christianity. He is everything that Christianity is not.
It's incredible to me that Sam is seriously attempting to make this argument. He is the same guy who was highly critical of Evangelicals who cozied up to Trump or called Trump a Christian.

Perhaps if Trump weren't American...
Trump is NO Christian...
LOL google up "no true scotsman fallacy."
the dude lives rent free in your brain.


Trumps religion is also immaterial in a political/electoral context.

I voted for Mitt Romney in 2012….and so did every evangelical Christian I know…because I thought he was the better candidate politically of the two choices

Even though I do not consider Mormonism to be branch of Christianity.

JR keeps acting like this is a theocracy and Evangelicals are only allowed to vote for the Christian candidate

I also liked Vivek a lot and he is a Hindu.

In a election between Christian Biden and Hindu Vivek I would have easily pulled the lever for Vivek
whiterock
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Realitybites said:

whiterock said:

UK MOD estimate of Russian Casualties.



The UK MOD's estimate of Russian Casualties is about as reliable as Pete Buttigieg's estimate of the reliability of the ATC system.
I'm sure you would prefer to go with Russian MOD estimates, then.....
whiterock
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Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

J.R. said:

Mothra said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. Or that Zelensky canceled elections and outlawed opposition parties. Or that he introduced a bill to ban the UOC outright. I could go on too.


False
So you were aware?
Putin does not support Christianity. He is everything that Christianity is not.
It's incredible to me that Sam is seriously attempting to make this argument. He is the same guy who was highly critical of Evangelicals who cozied up to Trump or called Trump a Christian.

Perhaps if Trump weren't American...
Trump is NO Christian...
LOL google up "no true scotsman fallacy."
the dude lives rent free in your brain.


Trumps religion is also immaterial in a political/electoral context.

I voted for Mitt Romney in 2012….and so did every evangelical Christian I know…because I thought he was the better candidate politically of the two choices

Even though I do not consider Mormonism to be branch of Christianity.

JR keeps acting like this is a theocracy and Evangelicals are only allowed to vote for the Christian candidate
my non-church attending, Methodist-raised, Bushie-type sister-in-law did not vote for Romney precisely because he was Mormon. She'd been around a few while her boys were in Boy Scouts and was turned off, thought they were crazy.

another example of the tolerance of the moderates. LOL
Realitybites
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I didn't vote for Romney because I didn't want to be responsible for the Democrat policies that he would put into place. After all, he was the establishment Rinocrat that gave us Obamacare and gay marriage before Obama. The mormon thing puts a person somewhere on the continuum between "gullible" and "dishonest", and there was plenty of secular evidence to categorize Romney as the latter without digging into his involvement with the LDS church.
sombear
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What? The article cites as its source and quotes . . . wait for it . . . Tucker!

Nobody, not me, not Whiterock, has denied that Ukraine has restricted and investigated certain churches. And, as I've posted multiple times for 3 years, nobody - not you or me or anyone else here - will know for sure on a case-by-case basis the merits of the evidence of Russia collaboration or support. So that debate is futile.
Realitybites
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sombear said:

What? The article cites as its source and quotes . . . wait for it . . . Tucker!

Nobody, not me, not Whiterock, has denied that Ukraine has restricted and investigated certain churches. And, as I've posted multiple times for 3 years, nobody - not you or me or anyone else here - will know for sure on a case-by-case basis the merits of the evidence of Russia collaboration or support. So that debate is futile.
"About The Author
Yevhen Herman
Yevhen Herman is the pseudonym of a journalist in Kyiv."

Nice try, though. Citing someone when you're a source on the ground doesn't invalidate the article. Particularly a journalist who is writing under a pseudonym to avoid persecution by Zelensky's fascist government.
Sam Lowry
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KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. .


Do you have any reputable sources for these comments ?

Seems strange that such activities have not been blared throughout our media.
Metropolitan Of Ukrainian Orthodox Church Sentenced To Five Years In Prison
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-orthodox-church-ionafan-sentenced/32539069.html

Ukraine jails priest accused of assisting Russian troops
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-jails-priest-accused-assisting-russian-troops-2022-12-07/

Priest dragged out of church by Ukrainian schismatics, Uniates, and authorities
https://orthochristian.com/145659.html

Local Ukrainian authorities: Banning the UOC has become the "number one goal"
https://orthochristian.com/146911.html

Carlson's interview with Amsterdam: UOC is a Church, not a political player
https://spzh.live/en/zashhita-very/79934-amsterdams-interview-with-carlson-uoc-is-a-church-not-a-political-player

British media: UOJ journalists imprisoned for truth about church seizures
https://spzh.live/en/news/79879-british-media-uoj-journalists-imprisoned-for-truth-about-church-raids

REPORT of the Foreign Ministry of the Russian Federation: Illegal actions by the Kiev regime targeting the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC), its clergy and parishioners
("Apart from arrests of UOC bishops and clergymen, there are cases of the disappearance and kidnapping of clergymen, evidence of their torture and beating and even death under very strange or unascertained circumstances.")
https://mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/humanitarian_cooperation/1898457/
Sam Lowry
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sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. Or that Zelensky canceled elections and outlawed opposition parties. Or that he introduced a bill to ban the UOC outright. I could go on too.


False
So you were aware?
No. Your post was full of misinformation and irrelevant info.

First of all, again, I was responding to your silly claim that Putin is somehow Christian or at least strongly supports Christianity. I did not claim Zelensky was a Christian or compare him to Putin in that regard. I simply stated facts about Ukraine itself being far more of a Christian country - one of the most Christian countries in the world.

Second, I've seen no evidence of the Ukrainian atrocities against Christian churches that you cite. Heck, I've worked with Russians for over a decade and never even heard them make those claims. And, man, do they tell some stories . . . .

Third, to the extent you're comparing Ukraine to Russia from a democracy and freedom perspective, it's a silly comparison. Russia invaded Ukraine. So, its apples to 18-wheelers to compare what Putin has done for decades with what Ukraine has done since being invaded by Russia.

As for specifics, canceling elections was the easy and obvious move. And I think you know that. Ukraine doesn't have the time, money, resources, or security to hold a national election. Not to mention its people are scattered all over the place, and Russia controls significant areas.

You and I will never know the full truth in every case, but Ukraine's move against the Russia-affiliated churches were allegedly based on actual evidence of colluding with Russia. And that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Why would Ukraine - which again was invaded by Russia - allow openly pro-invasion churches or political parties (a tiny fraction BTW) to undermine Ukraine's defense?

And unlike, Russia, Ukraine isn't sentencing those leaders to death or even incarcerating. Ukraine is simply suspending their ability to operate. And that has affected very few churches.

Again, Putin is not a Christian. Putin does not support Christianity. He is everything that Christianity is not.
Who invaded whom is irrelevant to the issue. You're also wrong on the facts. Zelensky banned the second largest political party in the country, which is also the largest in the south and east, along with ten other parties. Ukraine is routinely incarcerating priests and other political prisoners. The UOC is still the largest denomination in terms of parishes despite hundreds of seizures by the government (250 in 2022, 1500 as of this year). And of course the drastic decline in membership only took place after Kiev started its pogroms.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mothra said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. Or that Zelensky canceled elections and outlawed opposition parties. Or that he introduced a bill to ban the UOC outright. I could go on too.


False
So you were aware?
Putin does not support Christianity. He is everything that Christianity is not.
It's incredible to me that Sam is seriously attempting to make this argument. He is the same guy who was highly critical of Evangelicals who cozied up to Trump or called Trump a Christian.

Perhaps if Trump weren't American...
I have never criticized Christians for using Trump as an ally. I was one of those who voted for him in 2016. The fact that I no longer support him has nothing to do with his religion or lack thereof.
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. .


Do you have any reputable sources for these comments ?

Seems strange that such activities have not been blared throughout our media.
It's good propaganda, which of course is all Sam has to offer these days. The name "Ukraine Orthodox Church" sounds like a bona fide Ukrainian societal institution. Except the name is misleading. The UOC is the Ukrainian wing of the Moscow Patriate of the Russian Orthodox Church, which has staunchly supported Putin, Russian nationalism in general, and Russia's war against Ukraine specifically.

So the Govt. of Ukraine is not at all engaging in anti-Christian repression. It's closing down a patently subversive institution loyal to a foreign power which has invaded the country, i.e. an entirely logical thing for a nation at war to do.

The FCC would not have allowed Tokyo Rose and Lord Haw Haw to broadcast from within America, for obvious reasons
A breathtakingly shameless display of lies, even by your standards.
Redbrickbear
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sombear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Realitybites said:

sombear said:

What? The article cites as its source and quotes . . . wait for it . . . Tucker!

Nobody, not me, not Whiterock, has denied that Ukraine has restricted and investigated certain churches. And, as I've posted multiple times for 3 years, nobody - not you or me or anyone else here - will know for sure on a case-by-case basis the merits of the evidence of Russia collaboration or support. So that debate is futile.
"About The Author
Yevhen Herman
Yevhen Herman is the pseudonym of a journalist in Kyiv."

Nice try, though. Citing someone when you're a source on the ground doesn't invalidate the article. Particularly a journalist who is writing under a pseudonym to avoid persecution by Zelensky's fascist government.

I like opinion pieces as much as the next guy, but when I'm analyzing alleged facts, I prefer evidence.
sombear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. Or that Zelensky canceled elections and outlawed opposition parties. Or that he introduced a bill to ban the UOC outright. I could go on too.


False
So you were aware?
No. Your post was full of misinformation and irrelevant info.

First of all, again, I was responding to your silly claim that Putin is somehow Christian or at least strongly supports Christianity. I did not claim Zelensky was a Christian or compare him to Putin in that regard. I simply stated facts about Ukraine itself being far more of a Christian country - one of the most Christian countries in the world.

Second, I've seen no evidence of the Ukrainian atrocities against Christian churches that you cite. Heck, I've worked with Russians for over a decade and never even heard them make those claims. And, man, do they tell some stories . . . .

Third, to the extent you're comparing Ukraine to Russia from a democracy and freedom perspective, it's a silly comparison. Russia invaded Ukraine. So, its apples to 18-wheelers to compare what Putin has done for decades with what Ukraine has done since being invaded by Russia.

As for specifics, canceling elections was the easy and obvious move. And I think you know that. Ukraine doesn't have the time, money, resources, or security to hold a national election. Not to mention its people are scattered all over the place, and Russia controls significant areas.

You and I will never know the full truth in every case, but Ukraine's move against the Russia-affiliated churches were allegedly based on actual evidence of colluding with Russia. And that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Why would Ukraine - which again was invaded by Russia - allow openly pro-invasion churches or political parties (a tiny fraction BTW) to undermine Ukraine's defense?

And unlike, Russia, Ukraine isn't sentencing those leaders to death or even incarcerating. Ukraine is simply suspending their ability to operate. And that has affected very few churches.

Again, Putin is not a Christian. Putin does not support Christianity. He is everything that Christianity is not.
Who invaded whom is irrelevant to the issue. You're also wrong on the facts. Zelensky banned the second largest political party in the country, which is also the largest in the south and east, along with ten other parties. Ukraine is routinely incarcerating priests and other political prisoners. The UOC is still the largest denomination in terms of parishes despite hundreds of seizures by the government (250 in 2022, 1500 as of this year). And of course the drastic decline in membership only took place after Kiev started its pogroms.
It's absolutely relevant. Actions that a country takes when they are attacked and invaded are different. That's not only common sense but has been true in every invasion in world history.

I've still seen no evidence of "routine incarceration" or thousands of "seizures."

As for the party, "The largest of the parties with links to Russia is the Opposition Platform for Life, which has 44 out of 450 seats in parliament. The party is led by Viktor Medvedchuk, who has friendly ties with Russian President Vladimir Putin, the godfather of Medvedchuk's daughter."

Shocking that party would be suspended!!!

And BTW, party activities were suspended. Nobody was arrested, indicted, etc. Again, common sense, war-time/invasion measures, especially when the invader is your neighbor with deep tenacles in your country.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. Or that Zelensky canceled elections and outlawed opposition parties. Or that he introduced a bill to ban the UOC outright. I could go on too.


False
So you were aware?
No. Your post was full of misinformation and irrelevant info.

First of all, again, I was responding to your silly claim that Putin is somehow Christian or at least strongly supports Christianity. I did not claim Zelensky was a Christian or compare him to Putin in that regard. I simply stated facts about Ukraine itself being far more of a Christian country - one of the most Christian countries in the world.

Second, I've seen no evidence of the Ukrainian atrocities against Christian churches that you cite. Heck, I've worked with Russians for over a decade and never even heard them make those claims. And, man, do they tell some stories . . . .

Third, to the extent you're comparing Ukraine to Russia from a democracy and freedom perspective, it's a silly comparison. Russia invaded Ukraine. So, its apples to 18-wheelers to compare what Putin has done for decades with what Ukraine has done since being invaded by Russia.

As for specifics, canceling elections was the easy and obvious move. And I think you know that. Ukraine doesn't have the time, money, resources, or security to hold a national election. Not to mention its people are scattered all over the place, and Russia controls significant areas.

You and I will never know the full truth in every case, but Ukraine's move against the Russia-affiliated churches were allegedly based on actual evidence of colluding with Russia. And that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Why would Ukraine - which again was invaded by Russia - allow openly pro-invasion churches or political parties (a tiny fraction BTW) to undermine Ukraine's defense?

And unlike, Russia, Ukraine isn't sentencing those leaders to death or even incarcerating. Ukraine is simply suspending their ability to operate. And that has affected very few churches.

Again, Putin is not a Christian. Putin does not support Christianity. He is everything that Christianity is not.
Who invaded whom is irrelevant to the issue. You're also wrong on the facts. Zelensky banned the second largest political party in the country, which is also the largest in the south and east, along with ten other parties. Ukraine is routinely incarcerating priests and other political prisoners. The UOC is still the largest denomination in terms of parishes despite hundreds of seizures by the government (250 in 2022, 1500 as of this year). And of course the drastic decline in membership only took place after Kiev started its pogroms.
It's absolutely relevant. Actions that a country takes when they are attacked and invaded are different. That's not only common sense but has been true in every invasion in world history.

I've still seen no evidence of "routine incarceration" or thousands of "seizures."

As for the party, "The largest of the parties with links to Russia is the Opposition Platform for Life, which has 44 out of 450 seats in parliament. The party is led by Viktor Medvedchuk, who has friendly ties with Russian President Vladimir Putin, the godfather of Medvedchuk's daughter."

Shocking that party would be suspended!!!

And BTW, party activities were suspended. Nobody was arrested, indicted, etc. Again, common sense, war-time/invasion measures, especially when the invader is your neighbor with deep tenacles in your country.
I've posted evidence. If you haven't seen it, it's because you don't want to.

Thanks for your honesty in admitting you support the banning of political parties (which included confiscation of their money and property, by the way). Please read the linked evidence and let us know how you justify the violent seizure of churches, arrest of clergy on trumped-up charges, censorship, beatings, vandalism, arson, etc.

If this is what it takes to win support during an invasion, maybe that says something about the kind of corrupt regime we're allied with.
sombear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. Or that Zelensky canceled elections and outlawed opposition parties. Or that he introduced a bill to ban the UOC outright. I could go on too.


False
So you were aware?
No. Your post was full of misinformation and irrelevant info.

First of all, again, I was responding to your silly claim that Putin is somehow Christian or at least strongly supports Christianity. I did not claim Zelensky was a Christian or compare him to Putin in that regard. I simply stated facts about Ukraine itself being far more of a Christian country - one of the most Christian countries in the world.

Second, I've seen no evidence of the Ukrainian atrocities against Christian churches that you cite. Heck, I've worked with Russians for over a decade and never even heard them make those claims. And, man, do they tell some stories . . . .

Third, to the extent you're comparing Ukraine to Russia from a democracy and freedom perspective, it's a silly comparison. Russia invaded Ukraine. So, its apples to 18-wheelers to compare what Putin has done for decades with what Ukraine has done since being invaded by Russia.

As for specifics, canceling elections was the easy and obvious move. And I think you know that. Ukraine doesn't have the time, money, resources, or security to hold a national election. Not to mention its people are scattered all over the place, and Russia controls significant areas.

You and I will never know the full truth in every case, but Ukraine's move against the Russia-affiliated churches were allegedly based on actual evidence of colluding with Russia. And that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Why would Ukraine - which again was invaded by Russia - allow openly pro-invasion churches or political parties (a tiny fraction BTW) to undermine Ukraine's defense?

And unlike, Russia, Ukraine isn't sentencing those leaders to death or even incarcerating. Ukraine is simply suspending their ability to operate. And that has affected very few churches.

Again, Putin is not a Christian. Putin does not support Christianity. He is everything that Christianity is not.
Who invaded whom is irrelevant to the issue. You're also wrong on the facts. Zelensky banned the second largest political party in the country, which is also the largest in the south and east, along with ten other parties. Ukraine is routinely incarcerating priests and other political prisoners. The UOC is still the largest denomination in terms of parishes despite hundreds of seizures by the government (250 in 2022, 1500 as of this year). And of course the drastic decline in membership only took place after Kiev started its pogroms.
It's absolutely relevant. Actions that a country takes when they are attacked and invaded are different. That's not only common sense but has been true in every invasion in world history.

I've still seen no evidence of "routine incarceration" or thousands of "seizures."

As for the party, "The largest of the parties with links to Russia is the Opposition Platform for Life, which has 44 out of 450 seats in parliament. The party is led by Viktor Medvedchuk, who has friendly ties with Russian President Vladimir Putin, the godfather of Medvedchuk's daughter."

Shocking that party would be suspended!!!

And BTW, party activities were suspended. Nobody was arrested, indicted, etc. Again, common sense, war-time/invasion measures, especially when the invader is your neighbor with deep tenacles in your country.
I've posted evidence. If you haven't seen it, it's because you don't want to.

Thanks for your honesty in admitting you support the banning of political parties (which included confiscation of their money and property, by the way). Please read the linked evidence and let us know how you justify the violent seizure of churches, arrest of clergy on trumped-up charges, censorship, beatings, vandalism, arson, etc.

If this is what it takes to win support during an invasion, maybe that says something about the kind of corrupt regime we're allied with.
Yes, I support the banning of the activities of parties who openly support an invader. In fact, I would probably go further.

I read all of the articles linked. They present nothing new. I've acknowledged multiple times that there have been a few clergy arrested for assisting Russia, and I acknowledged that we may never know whether the allegations are true or not.

One thing nobody can deny is that the leadership of the church is closely aligned with Putin.

I don't know the circumstances around two of the incidents cited, but even if as alleged, your evidence is a couple incidents. My gosh, in Russia and in Ukraine by Russian troops, there are multiple worse incidents every day. And most of it preceded the war. Thousands upon thousands of Evangelicals, Catholics, and Jehova's Witness have been imprisoned in Russia. Again, I know people in Russia who have been afraid their entire adult lives to be open about their Christianity, and they said that is typical.

And I still have seen no evidence of Ukrainian torture, murder, or incarceration.
FLBear5630
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ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Post 9/11 wars were a mistake, IMO, with the possible exception of Afghanistan, had it been handled correctly. But the link you posted said that the wars have contributed to 4.5 million deaths,

I am certainly willing have to have discussion about if the well intentioned aims were worth the human suffering (and the failures)

But I think I am just shocked at people like ATL (and others on this forum) who still won't admit the massive DC lead mistakes of the past 25 years....and seem to have memory holed the human deaths.

Its like it never happened at all!

Or worse pretend that pointing out these deaths or mistakes is an "attack on the USA"


What you seem to be blind to is that almost every time something is brought up about Russia, you are right there with some US whataboutism, regardless of relevance.



Well there is your logic problem right there

You think comparisons of death tolls in regime change wars of choice are "whataboutism" (lol did you just learn that term)

And you continue to confuse State/government with Nation
Well, you'll have to enlighten me on how you have a nation without a state/government.



Were Jews not a nation when they did not have a State or government?

For 2,000 years they were a nation and yet had no State and no government



No, they weren't. A religious tribe, yes.
The Torah has quite a few rules.
Sam Lowry
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sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

sombear said:

Sam Lowry said:

We were talking about the church in Russia. Ukraine is obviously rife with suspicion and conflict, and both sides carry out raids in search of enemy spies.
No. You said Putin is more Christian . . . . .

He has a history of slaughtering Christians.

He bribed the head of the Russian Church and heavily restricts non-Orthodox churches.

He does not believe in individual freedom or liberty.

He murders or incarcerates domestic political opponents.

He's in bed with the Russian mob and looks the other way on child sex and human trafficking.

His closest allies are countries that persecute Christians and even sentence them to death.

He has opposed numerous churches and sects and instead fought for secular socialist governments.

He is literally torturing and murdering Ukrainian Christians and Christian leaders and burning down their churches.

I worked with Russians. Many were afraid to publicly identify as Christians.

Contrary to what idiot propagandists say, Russia is one of the least Christian countries in Europe when it comes to church attendance and people who say their Christianity is important to them. BTW Ukraine is at or near the top.

I could go on and on.

Putin is not a Christian and doesn't act like one. He is the epitome of anti-Christian.
I guess you weren't aware that Zelensky's government had seized and locked down 250 churches as of 2022. Or that UOC churches were vandalized and burned. Or that priests were forcibly dragged out, kidnapped, imprisoned, and replaced by officially recognized clergy. Or that parishioners were beaten and coerced to attend officially recognized churches. Or that priests have disappeared or been murdered by Ukrainian security forces. Or that Zelensky canceled elections and outlawed opposition parties. Or that he introduced a bill to ban the UOC outright. I could go on too.


False
So you were aware?
No. Your post was full of misinformation and irrelevant info.

First of all, again, I was responding to your silly claim that Putin is somehow Christian or at least strongly supports Christianity. I did not claim Zelensky was a Christian or compare him to Putin in that regard. I simply stated facts about Ukraine itself being far more of a Christian country - one of the most Christian countries in the world.

Second, I've seen no evidence of the Ukrainian atrocities against Christian churches that you cite. Heck, I've worked with Russians for over a decade and never even heard them make those claims. And, man, do they tell some stories . . . .

Third, to the extent you're comparing Ukraine to Russia from a democracy and freedom perspective, it's a silly comparison. Russia invaded Ukraine. So, its apples to 18-wheelers to compare what Putin has done for decades with what Ukraine has done since being invaded by Russia.

As for specifics, canceling elections was the easy and obvious move. And I think you know that. Ukraine doesn't have the time, money, resources, or security to hold a national election. Not to mention its people are scattered all over the place, and Russia controls significant areas.

You and I will never know the full truth in every case, but Ukraine's move against the Russia-affiliated churches were allegedly based on actual evidence of colluding with Russia. And that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Why would Ukraine - which again was invaded by Russia - allow openly pro-invasion churches or political parties (a tiny fraction BTW) to undermine Ukraine's defense?

And unlike, Russia, Ukraine isn't sentencing those leaders to death or even incarcerating. Ukraine is simply suspending their ability to operate. And that has affected very few churches.

Again, Putin is not a Christian. Putin does not support Christianity. He is everything that Christianity is not.
Who invaded whom is irrelevant to the issue. You're also wrong on the facts. Zelensky banned the second largest political party in the country, which is also the largest in the south and east, along with ten other parties. Ukraine is routinely incarcerating priests and other political prisoners. The UOC is still the largest denomination in terms of parishes despite hundreds of seizures by the government (250 in 2022, 1500 as of this year). And of course the drastic decline in membership only took place after Kiev started its pogroms.
It's absolutely relevant. Actions that a country takes when they are attacked and invaded are different. That's not only common sense but has been true in every invasion in world history.

I've still seen no evidence of "routine incarceration" or thousands of "seizures."

As for the party, "The largest of the parties with links to Russia is the Opposition Platform for Life, which has 44 out of 450 seats in parliament. The party is led by Viktor Medvedchuk, who has friendly ties with Russian President Vladimir Putin, the godfather of Medvedchuk's daughter."

Shocking that party would be suspended!!!

And BTW, party activities were suspended. Nobody was arrested, indicted, etc. Again, common sense, war-time/invasion measures, especially when the invader is your neighbor with deep tenacles in your country.
I've posted evidence. If you haven't seen it, it's because you don't want to.

Thanks for your honesty in admitting you support the banning of political parties (which included confiscation of their money and property, by the way). Please read the linked evidence and let us know how you justify the violent seizure of churches, arrest of clergy on trumped-up charges, censorship, beatings, vandalism, arson, etc.

If this is what it takes to win support during an invasion, maybe that says something about the kind of corrupt regime we're allied with.
Yes, I support the banning of the activities of parties who openly support an invader. In fact, I would probably go further.

I read all of the articles linked. They present nothing new. I've acknowledged multiple times that there have been a few clergy arrested for assisting Russia, and I acknowledged that we may never know whether the allegations are true or not.

One thing nobody can deny is that the leadership of the church is closely aligned with Putin.

I don't know the circumstances around two of the incidents cited, but even if as alleged, your evidence is a couple incidents. My gosh, in Russia and in Ukraine by Russian troops, there are multiple worse incidents every day. And most of it preceded the war. Thousands upon thousands of Evangelicals, Catholics, and Jehova's Witness have been imprisoned in Russia. Again, I know people in Russia who have been afraid their entire adult lives to be open about their Christianity, and they said that is typical.

And I still have seen no evidence of Ukrainian torture, murder, or incarceration.
If you read all the articles and still haven't seen the evidence, I don't know what to tell you. I will just add that both the UOC and the Opposition Platform For Life party condemned the invasion, and the church separated itself from Moscow early in the war. What you really mean by "openly supporting an invader" is that they're accused of supporting pro-Russian policies. That's the classic pretext for oppressive rulers like Zelensky to crush dissent.
Sam Lowry
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Ukraine's government is bracing for unrest around the time of the now-canceled elections. Dmytro Yarosh, former head of the Right Sector neo-Nazi group and a key player at Maidan, is rumored to be marshaling support.
Quote:

Ukrainian intelligence predicts dire situation from mid-May onward
Kirill Budanov acknowledged that the Ukrainian army had long experienced problems on the frontline

MOSCOW, April 22. /TASS/. A difficult period awaits Ukraine on the frontline and in the domestic political situation starting from mid-May, the head of the Defense Ministry's Main Intelligence Directorate (GUR), Kirill Budanov, (listed in Russia as a terrorist and extremist) has said.

"The way we see it, a rather difficult situation awaits us in the near future," he said in an interview with the BBC's Ukrainian service. "There will be problems starting from the middle of May."

Budanov said he was referring to the situation both on the battlefield and in domestic politics.

"This is going to be a difficult period from the middle of May and at the beginning of June," he added.
He acknowledged that the Ukrainian army had long experienced problems on the frontline.

"Yes, there are problems on the frontline, but we should also be frank: these problems did not appear today, or a month ago, or even three months ago. This is a systemic problem that we are facing," he said.

Ukraine is actively discussing the issue of the legitimacy of the authorities in the absence of parliamentary and presidential elections, which cannot be held during martial law. Under the Constitution, President Vladimir Zelensky's five-year term of office expires on May 21.

https://tass.com/politics/1778833
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