sombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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At the same time, Putin allows the Russian mob to run prostitution, drug, murder-for-hire, sex trafficking, kidnapping, and child porn rings unimpeded. I'll take gay right over those things any day of the week.

---

...and our government has allowed cartels to run the very same things in the United States for a decade.

Maybe if you get out of the Russia! Russia! Russia! camp for a bit, you'll understand that crime - even organized crime - happens in every society (even orderly Japan). The difference is whether your leader fights it, or as in the case of Brandon is aiding and abetting it.

---

We fight the cartels..

---

But do we?


Given the opportunity to cut their business network link to the USA & Canada via the border…both the GOP and the Democrats would not spend $12 billion to secure the border…but they would spend $95 billion on Ukraine-Israel

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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At the same time, Putin allows the Russian mob to run prostitution, drug, murder-for-hire, sex trafficking, kidnapping, and child porn rings unimpeded. I'll take gay right over those things any day of the week.

---

...and our government has allowed cartels to run the very same things in the United States for a decade.

Maybe if you get out of the Russia! Russia! Russia! camp for a bit, you'll understand that crime - even organized crime - happens in every society (even orderly Japan). The difference is whether your leader fights it, or as in the case of Brandon is aiding and abetting it.

---

We fight the cartels..

---

But do we?


Given the opportunity to cut their business network link to the USA & Canada via the border…both the GOP and the Democrats would not spend $12 billion to secure the border…but they would spend $95 billion on Ukraine-Israel

---

Nah, virtually all drugs come by vehicle.

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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Thanks. I remember you being pro-US involvement in Ukraine in the past, and wanted to see if your position now extended to committing troops to engage in WWIII, as whiterock (not me) is advocating on this thread.

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LOL you have a very hard time crafting a post without a strawman.

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Feel free to clarify if you feel I've mischaracterized your position. Are you not advocating for American boots on the ground in Ukraine?

---

....LOL.....

I have posted ad nauseum that supplying Ukraine sufficiently to defeat Russia is the best way to AVOID conflict between Nato and Russia (which would inescapably involve one of my children).

---

Yes. And since you were conspicuously wrong about that, the question is what are you advocating now.

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LOL you are living an alternative reality. The conflict is ongoing. Russia has not "won" anything except a good mauling at the hands of an ostensibly lesser power. There is no direct conflict occurring between Nato and Russia. And my daughter will indeed in 6 weeks assume command of a mobility unit that will the primary supply line to central Europe (meaning she will be IN the bullseye for Kalibur strikes if direct Russia/Nato conflict breaks out).

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

---

And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation

It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.

[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]

[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),

Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]

[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]

---

I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…

---

Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?

They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war

Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war

You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"

This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005

Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county

---

Here we go again…

Seccession is a no-no...

---

Secession is literally how Texas became a country

Secession is literally how the USA became independent

---

Literally, one of the pillars of the post-WWII order is territorial inviolability.

---

Was one of the pillars. We abandoned that principle decades ago, and you're seeing the results.

---

LOL making stuff up post after post. Exactly whose territory did we invade and annex?

Redbrickbear said:

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Mothra said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Realitybites said:

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sombear said:

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Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

---

There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

---

Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

---

You could expand that to include when you have been captured by whatever regime is in power you are no longer doing Christ's work.

You have to be be willing to speak out against those in power and what they are doing.

Of course that would force us to ask some deep questions about our own State captured Churches in the West.

Like the Church of England, the Lutheran Church of Sweden, and our own progressive Christian churches in America.

All of who have the exact same regime approved views on race, gender, and sexuality that the DC ruling class wants them to have.

Moscow and DC fundamentally both want loyal Christian Churches that they indirectly control and dislike non-loyal ones.

Catholics are not welcome in Moscow....traditional Southern Baptists are not welcome in DC

---

There are a lot of so-called Christian churches around the world that no longer adhere to the central tenets of the faith, for sure.

Being a mouthpiece of the govt is certainly one particular subset.

---

Just interesting that all great powers try to co-op religions to serve them.

In this case specifically the CIA is working with the Orthodox Church in Constantinople while the FSB is working with Orthodox Church in Russia.

You can't make this stuff up!

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-cias-man-in-constantinople/

[Everyone knows that the Moscow Patriarchate is in bed with the Kremlin. Few realize that the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is deeply beholden to the United States government.

This ignorance is surprising, given that many Greek Orthodox leaders are quite proud of the fact. In 1942, Athenagoras Spyrouthe Archbishop of America for the Greek Orthodox Churchwrote to an agent of the Office of Strategic Services. "I have three Bishops, three hundred priests, and a large and far-flung organization," Athenagoras wrote. "Every one under my order is under yours. You may command them for any service you require. There will be no questions asked and your directions will be executed faithfully."

The current Ecumenical Patriarch, Bartholomew, is cut from the same cloth as Athenagoras. He is very close to Pope Francis; the two share a passion for mass immigration and environmental activism. Also like Athenagoras, Bartholomew shares a close relationship with the U.S. governmenta partnership that has proven mutually beneficial...

Nevertheless, the United States government officially supports the doctrine of Greek papism, as will be shown. Strengthening the Ecumenical Patriarchate's position within global Orthodoxy serves two purposes. First, it necessarily subtracts from the influence of Constantinople's rival, the Moscow Patriarchate. Washington regards Russian Orthodoxy as a tool for Kremlin propaganda and, therefore, a legitimate target for counterintelligence operations. Secondly, the renovationist Ecumenical Patriarchs are willing partners in Washington's campaign to spread liberal, democratic values across the globe.]

---

Not terribly serious to try to make some kind of grand conspiracy out of 80-year old geopolitics.

It was of great comfort to this Southern Baptist to know the Polish pope was on my side during the Cold War. Thatcher also. I admired them both, immensely. Still do. We were comrades in arms in a very real sense. And at that time, the Russian Orthodox Church was NOT in bed with the Kremlin. In war, you take the allies you can find and do with them the best you can.

whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

---

And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation

It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.

[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]

[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),

Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]

[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]

---

I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…

---

Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?

They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war

Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war

You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"

This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005

Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county

---

Here we go again…

Seccession is a no-no...

---

Secession is literally how Texas became a country

Secession is literally how the USA became independent

---

The bar has to be pretty high, or the world is aflame in secessionist struggles. Literally, one of the pillars of the post-WWII order is territorial inviolability. And that is one of the strongest arguments for opposing the Russian invasion in Ukraine. If it is allowed to stand, then Moldova is next. Then Pakistan and India are back at it over Kashmir. China and India are at it over anerobic mountain passes to nowhere. And Yemen festers some more on steroids. Quebec would be pretty civil, but Kurdistan would be a 7-digit genocide.

If you take a "well, lets think about this" stand rather than "nope, not gonna happen"..... wars start popping up all over the globe, and everybody who can play in them, will.

---

So in return for not allowing any of that to happen, we have to add $1trillion in debt every year in money we don't have to cover our defense spending while America becomes a 3rd world ****hole like Mexico or Brazil?

---

We are not adding anywhere near a trillion of debt per year to save Ukraine.

We are, however, adding that kind of money to save the planet from a climate crisis, to save refugees from (insert imagined threat here), to mis-educate our kids on the birds & bees, etc.....

If you do not punish powers who invade to seize territory, powers will continue to invade to seize territory. It's one of the oldest lessons history teaches us.

---

Which is why your daughter should be deployed to the Mexican border. Not Central Europe.

The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

---

And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation

It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.

[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]

[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),

Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]

[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]

---

I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…

---

Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?

They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war

Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war

You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"

This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005

Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county

---

Here we go again…

Seccession is a no-no...

---

Secession is literally how Texas became a country

Secession is literally how the USA became independent

---

The bar has to be pretty high, or the world is aflame in secessionist struggles. Literally, one of the pillars of the post-WWII order is territorial inviolability. And that is one of the strongest arguments for opposing the Russian invasion in Ukraine. If it is allowed to stand, then Moldova is next. Then Pakistan and India are back at it over Kashmir. China and India are at it over anerobic mountain passes to nowhere. And Yemen festers some more on steroids. Quebec would be pretty civil, but Kurdistan would be a 7-digit genocide.

If you take a "well, lets think about this" stand rather than "nope, not gonna happen"..... wars start popping up all over the globe, and everybody who can play in them, will.

---

So in return for not allowing any of that to happen, we have to add $1trillion in debt every year in money we don't have to cover our defense spending while America becomes a 3rd world ****hole like Mexico or Brazil?

---

We are not adding anywhere near a trillion of debt per year to save Ukraine.

We are, however, adding that kind of money to save the planet from a climate crisis, to save refugees from (insert imagined threat here), to mis-educate our kids on the birds & bees, etc.....

If you do not punish powers who invade to seize territory, powers will continue to invade to seize territory. It's one of the oldest lessons history teaches us.

---

Which is why your daughter should be deployed to the Mexican border. Not Central Europe.

---

So you really don't think anything that happens anywhere else in the world affects you.

Is your 401k invested 100% in American companies with no exposure to foreign affairs?

whiterock said:

---

So you really don't think anything that happens anywhere else in the world affects you.

Is your 401k invested 100% in American companies with no exposure to foreign affairs?

---

Your attempt to paint everyone who disagrees with your military adventurism in Ukraine as irrational isolationists really is getting old. It is perfectly reasonable to simultaneously believe that we have no business interfering in Ukraine, that the Iraq invasion was a mistake, and that we should have declared war on Cuba and overthrown Castro because allowing a communist state that close to Florida was an existential threat. Its also consistent with considering military intervention in Mexico (which we have done before).

It isn't that opposing our proxy war in Ukraine means you don't care what happens anywhere in the world, it is just that people who oppose it understand that it isn't part of our vital national interest.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Ukrainians north of Kharkiv are reported to have fled the Russian advance. Russians captured about a dozen small villages and gained a foothold five kilometers deep by fifteen kilometers wide in a single day using only a few battalions.

---

Ukrainian morale is cracking.

Their best troops are already dead and money alone can't replace them.

None of this should be a surprise to anyone who looked past early western propaganda and compared the economic and military capabilities of the two countries.

Hundreds of thousands dead due to the inept miscalculations of two men.

Horrible tragedy.

Realitybites said:

---

whiterock said:

---

So you really don't think anything that happens anywhere else in the world affects you.

Is your 401k invested 100% in American companies with no exposure to foreign affairs?

---

Your attempt to paint everyone who disagrees with your military adventurism in Ukraine as irrational isolationists really is getting old. It is perfectly reasonable to simultaneously believe that we have no business interfering in Ukraine, that the Iraq invasion was a mistake, and that we should have declared war on Cuba and overthrown Castro because allowing a communist state that close to Florida was an existential threat. Its also consistent with considering military intervention in Mexico (which we have done before).

It isn't that opposing our proxy war in Ukraine means you don't care what happens anywhere in the world, it is just that people who oppose it understand that it isn't part of our vital national interest.

---

LOL, I mean, really, the levels of recto-cranial inversion going on there.

We are not engaged in military adventurism in Ukraine. RUSSIA IS.

Russian military adventurism in Ukraine is a direct threat to Nato, which is a vital national interest of the USA.

Had Russia managed their Ukraine problem the way we managed our Cuba and Mexico problems, we would not be having to fund a proxy war in Ukraine.

you are working way too hard to avoid seeing the world as it is.

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

---

And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation

It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.

[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]

[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),

Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]

[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]

---

I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…

---

Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?

They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war

Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war

You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"

This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005

Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county

---

Here we go again…

Seccession is a no-no...

---

Secession is literally how Texas became a country

Secession is literally how the USA became independent

---

Literally, one of the pillars of the post-WWII order is territorial inviolability.

---

Was one of the pillars. We abandoned that principle decades ago, and you're seeing the results.

---

LOL making stuff up post after post. Exactly whose territory did we invade and annex?

---

Putting aside your self-serving redefinition of term, the post-war security order was about a lot more than annexation of territory. It established rules that applied to international conflicts in general, with the goal of coexistence between fundamentally different societies. If you expect our rivals perpetually to tolerate unbridled intervention and arbitrary regime change as long as we don't formally invite them to join the United States of America, you're not talking seriously about any rules-based international order.

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Ukrainians north of Kharkiv are reported to have fled the Russian advance. Russians captured about a dozen small villages and gained a foothold five kilometers deep by fifteen kilometers wide in a single day using only a few battalions.

---

Ukrainian morale is cracking.

Their best troops are already dead and money alone can't replace them.

None of this should be a surprise to anyone who looked past early western propaganda and compared the economic and military capabilities of the two countries.

Hundreds of thousands dead due to the inept miscalculations of two men.

Horrible tragedy.

---

Ukraine is not cracking quite yet, and still have their entire male population under age 25 available for service.

I would suggest three men are primarily responsible for the death toll: Putin, Shoigu, and Gerasimov

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

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And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation

It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.

[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]

[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),

Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]

[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]

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I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…

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Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?

They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war

Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war

You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"

This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005

Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county

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Here we go again…

Seccession is a no-no...

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Secession is literally how Texas became a country

Secession is literally how the USA became independent

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In the modern era, secession is a no-no..

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For the record…

We just helped South Sudan break off from Sudan in 2011

And helped East Timor break off from Indonesia in 2002

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And none of that applies to Ukraine. Russia just invaded to take what it wanted. There was no serious secessionist effort there. Without Russian sponsorship, there was no conflict at all. The Russian meddling that happened there is the kind of stuff you have to resist most firmly.

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"Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face."

That's not Pravda; it's what our own people said behind closed doors. It was true then and remained true when events played out as predicted. Your denials only prove that you have no real concern for Ukraine.

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In response to the Ukrainian legislature voting to move toward joining EU, Russia first bribes the pro-Russian president to veto the EU bill he'd campaigned promising to sign, which destabilizes the Ukraine government, prompting a popular uprising which drives that leader into exile. Russia meanwhile is filling the Donbas up with Little Green Men, prompting outbreak of insurgency. Then, Russia invades Crimea. Next, Russia annexes both in an illegal plebiscite. Finally, observing all the instability and with an abundance of caution about future strife, Russia decides to invade Ukraine to forestall a deeper crisis (than it has already created).

And STILL you blame us for all of it.

LOL that's not mud in those mudpies you're making......

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Referring to the Russian economic proposal as a "bribe" is colonial arrogance at its finest. In your mind it was illegitimate for Putin to even make a competing offer, much less for Yanukovych to consider accepting it. So we refused to negotiate, and instead supported a coup, which as noted above was what actually prompted the insurgency. Crimea was annexed with the overwhelming support of its people, but of course you're wrong about the Donbas. It wasn't annexed until almost a decade later, after the failure of the Minsk plan and the refusal of any further talks by the West.

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Realitybites said:

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sombear said:

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Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

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Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

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Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

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There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

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Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

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So when he said Christian chapels, he meant Christian chapels.

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Do the chapels include every other denomination, or simply the state-sponsored mouthpiece of Russian propaganda as opposed to Christ teachings?

That's a rhetorical question. I realize you're not qualified to answer.

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Russian Orthodox churches may be Christian, but they're opposed to Christ's teachings? How does that work?

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See post above. When you're merely the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may not be doing Christ work.

I realize you're Catholic, but you do realize Christians encompass more than a single sect or denomination, correct?

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Of course. I don't know why you keep saying that since no one is disputing it.

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Glad to hear you acknowledge these were not mere Christian chapels, and that the more appropriate term was Russian orthodox chapels. It's surprising it took you this long to get to that position.

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I don't know that one is any more appropriate than the other.

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Of course you don't. LOL.

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Realitybites said:

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sombear said:

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Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

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Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

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There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

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Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

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So when he said Christian chapels, he meant Christian chapels.

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Do the chapels include every other denomination, or simply the state-sponsored mouthpiece of Russian propaganda as opposed to Christ teachings?

That's a rhetorical question. I realize you're not qualified to answer.

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Russian Orthodox churches may be Christian, but they're opposed to Christ's teachings? How does that work?

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See post above. When you're merely the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may not be doing Christ work.

I realize you're Catholic, but you do realize Christians encompass more than a single sect or denomination, correct?

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Of course. I don't know why you keep saying that since no one is disputing it.

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Glad to hear you acknowledge these were not mere Christian chapels, and that the more appropriate term was Russian orthodox chapels. It's surprising it took you this long to get to that position.

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Do you ever just describe yourself as a Christian, or do you always make a point of saying you're a rabid wingnut fundamentalist Christian?

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One doesn't need to be a rabid fundamentalist to be a Christian. But certainly, just because one belongs to a particular sect doesn't make them Christian.

Again, I think the source of your confusion stems from your inability to accurately define what a Christian is. We have already established you've gotten one of the fundamentals of the faith completely wrong.

Russians now controlling most of Krasnohorivka after Ukrainian defenses collapsed east of the city.

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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Thanks. I remember you being pro-US involvement in Ukraine in the past, and wanted to see if your position now extended to committing troops to engage in WWIII, as whiterock (not me) is advocating on this thread.

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LOL you have a very hard time crafting a post without a strawman.

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Feel free to clarify if you feel I've mischaracterized your position. Are you not advocating for American boots on the ground in Ukraine?

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....LOL.....

I have posted ad nauseum that supplying Ukraine sufficiently to defeat Russia is the best way to AVOID conflict between Nato and Russia (which would inescapably involve one of my children).

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Yes. And since you were conspicuously wrong about that, the question is what are you advocating now.

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LOL you are living an alternative reality. The conflict is ongoing. Russia has not "won" anything except a good mauling at the hands of an ostensibly lesser power.

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You're still assuming, for whatever reason, that Russia has taken more casualties than Ukraine. That was never the case. The opposite is true, and we're seeing the results more and more by the day.

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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Thanks. I remember you being pro-US involvement in Ukraine in the past, and wanted to see if your position now extended to committing troops to engage in WWIII, as whiterock (not me) is advocating on this thread.

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LOL you have a very hard time crafting a post without a strawman.

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Feel free to clarify if you feel I've mischaracterized your position. Are you not advocating for American boots on the ground in Ukraine?

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....LOL.....

I have posted ad nauseum that supplying Ukraine sufficiently to defeat Russia is the best way to AVOID conflict between Nato and Russia (which would inescapably involve one of my children).

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Yes. And since you were conspicuously wrong about that, the question is what are you advocating now.

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LOL you are living an alternative reality. The conflict is ongoing. Russia has not "won" anything except a good mauling at the hands of an ostensibly lesser power.

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You're still assuming, for whatever reason, that Russia has taken more casualties than Ukraine. That was never the case. The opposite is true, and we're seeing the results more and more by the day.

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Russia doing the Lord's work, eh Sam?

whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Ukrainians north of Kharkiv are reported to have fled the Russian advance. Russians captured about a dozen small villages and gained a foothold five kilometers deep by fifteen kilometers wide in a single day using only a few battalions.

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Ukrainian morale is cracking.

Their best troops are already dead and money alone can't replace them.

None of this should be a surprise to anyone who looked past early western propaganda and compared the economic and military capabilities of the two countries.

Hundreds of thousands dead due to the inept miscalculations of two men.

Horrible tragedy.

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Ukraine is not cracking quite yet, and still have their entire male population under age 25 available for service.

I would suggest three men are primarily responsible for the death toll: Putin, Shoigu, and Gerasimov

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I don't buy it man. I haven't been to West Point and am not a military strategist, but I suspect that there has never been a single country on earth in any war that's engaged in a war of survival and been like, "You know what? Let's wait until after our enemy gets to the outskirts of our capital and send in our good troops two years after that". I've also seen a couple interviews with foreign fighters that have gone over there, and they've reported that the well-trained Ukrainian troops that are getting specialized NATO training in how to use javelins and other high-tech equipment have had the highest rates of casualty since they're doing the most dangerous missions.

we also don't know how honest Ukraine has been with their casualty figures. It's likely they have taken more than they have reported

Daveisabovereproach said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Ukrainians north of Kharkiv are reported to have fled the Russian advance. Russians captured about a dozen small villages and gained a foothold five kilometers deep by fifteen kilometers wide in a single day using only a few battalions.

---

Ukrainian morale is cracking.

Their best troops are already dead and money alone can't replace them.

None of this should be a surprise to anyone who looked past early western propaganda and compared the economic and military capabilities of the two countries.

Hundreds of thousands dead due to the inept miscalculations of two men.

Horrible tragedy.

---

Ukraine is not cracking quite yet, and still have their entire male population under age 25 available for service.

I would suggest three men are primarily responsible for the death toll: Putin, Shoigu, and Gerasimov

---

I've also seen a couple interviews with foreign fighters that have gone over there, and they've reported that the well-trained Ukrainian troops that are getting specialized NATO training in how to use javelins and other high-tech equipment have had the highest rates of casualty since they're doing the most dangerous missions.

---

Among other reasons. NATO doesn't really know how to train for this kind of war, yet they insisted on training new recruits in order to start with a tabula rasa. Ukrainians themselves have been bitter about the results.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Ukrainians north of Kharkiv are reported to have fled the Russian advance. Russians captured about a dozen small villages and gained a foothold five kilometers deep by fifteen kilometers wide in a single day using only a few battalions.

---

Ukrainian morale is cracking.

Their best troops are already dead and money alone can't replace them.

None of this should be a surprise to anyone who looked past early western propaganda and compared the economic and military capabilities of the two countries.

Hundreds of thousands dead due to the inept miscalculations of two men.

Horrible tragedy.

---

Ukraine is not cracking quite yet, and still have their entire male population under age 25 available for service.

I would suggest three men are primarily responsible for the death toll: Putin, Shoigu, and Gerasimov

---

I've also seen a couple interviews with foreign fighters that have gone over there, and they've reported that the well-trained Ukrainian troops that are getting specialized NATO training in how to use javelins and other high-tech equipment have had the highest rates of casualty since they're doing the most dangerous missions.

---

Among other reasons. NATO doesn't really know how to train for this kind of war, yet they insisted on training new recruits in order to start with a tabula rasa. Ukrainians themselves have been bitter about the results.

---

Maybe, but my point was more to show that this is a David versus Goliath situation, and without a miracle, I don't see David winning this through simply giving him more/better conventional weaponry. Personally, if I were president, I would want Ukraine to draw some sort of line in the sand to show what terms they're willing to accept to end the war other than this Braveheart stuff I've seen ie " Russia goes back home and stops at every house along the way to beg forgiveness for 100 years of rape and pillage". It's very romantic, and I understand the sentiment, but it's not realistic.

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Ukrainians north of Kharkiv are reported to have fled the Russian advance. Russians captured about a dozen small villages and gained a foothold five kilometers deep by fifteen kilometers wide in a single day using only a few battalions.

---

Ukrainian morale is cracking.

Their best troops are already dead and money alone can't replace them.

None of this should be a surprise to anyone who looked past early western propaganda and compared the economic and military capabilities of the two countries.

Hundreds of thousands dead due to the inept miscalculations of two men.

Horrible tragedy.

---

Ukraine is not cracking quite yet, and still have their entire male population under age 25 available for service.

I would suggest three men are primarily responsible for the death toll: Putin, Shoigu, and Gerasimov

---

I've also seen a couple interviews with foreign fighters that have gone over there, and they've reported that the well-trained Ukrainian troops that are getting specialized NATO training in how to use javelins and other high-tech equipment have had the highest rates of casualty since they're doing the most dangerous missions.

---

Among other reasons. NATO doesn't really know how to train for this kind of war, yet they insisted on training new recruits in order to start with a tabula rasa. Ukrainians themselves have been bitter about the results.

---

Maybe, but my point was more to show that this is a David versus Goliath situation, and without a miracle, I don't see David winning this through simply giving him more/better conventional weaponry. Personally, if I were president, I would want Ukraine to draw some sort of line in the sand to show what terms they're willing to accept to end the war other than this Braveheart stuff I've seen ie " Russia goes back home and stops at every house along the way to beg forgiveness for 100 years of rape and pillage". It's very romantic, and I understand the sentiment, but it's not realistic.

---

I don't disagree. They would have lost much less in terms of lives and territory that way.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Ukrainians north of Kharkiv are reported to have fled the Russian advance. Russians captured about a dozen small villages and gained a foothold five kilometers deep by fifteen kilometers wide in a single day using only a few battalions.

---

Ukrainian morale is cracking.

Their best troops are already dead and money alone can't replace them.

None of this should be a surprise to anyone who looked past early western propaganda and compared the economic and military capabilities of the two countries.

Hundreds of thousands dead due to the inept miscalculations of two men.

Horrible tragedy.

---

Ukraine is not cracking quite yet, and still have their entire male population under age 25 available for service.

I would suggest three men are primarily responsible for the death toll: Putin, Shoigu, and Gerasimov

---

I've also seen a couple interviews with foreign fighters that have gone over there, and they've reported that the well-trained Ukrainian troops that are getting specialized NATO training in how to use javelins and other high-tech equipment have had the highest rates of casualty since they're doing the most dangerous missions.

---

Among other reasons. NATO doesn't really know how to train for this kind of war, yet they insisted on training new recruits in order to start with a tabula rasa. Ukrainians themselves have been bitter about the results.

---

Maybe, but my point was more to show that this is a David versus Goliath situation, and without a miracle, I don't see David winning this through simply giving him more/better conventional weaponry. Personally, if I were president, I would want Ukraine to draw some sort of line in the sand to show what terms they're willing to accept to end the war other than this Braveheart stuff I've seen ie " Russia goes back home and stops at every house along the way to beg forgiveness for 100 years of rape and pillage". It's very romantic, and I understand the sentiment, but it's not realistic.

---

I don't disagree. They would have lost much less in terms of lives and territory that way.

---

Not sure that Ukraine could have made a peace treaty without prior approval of the Biden administration.

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Ukrainians north of Kharkiv are reported to have fled the Russian advance. Russians captured about a dozen small villages and gained a foothold five kilometers deep by fifteen kilometers wide in a single day using only a few battalions.

---

Ukrainian morale is cracking.

Their best troops are already dead and money alone can't replace them.

None of this should be a surprise to anyone who looked past early western propaganda and compared the economic and military capabilities of the two countries.

Hundreds of thousands dead due to the inept miscalculations of two men.

Horrible tragedy.

---

Ukraine is not cracking quite yet, and still have their entire male population under age 25 available for service.

I would suggest three men are primarily responsible for the death toll: Putin, Shoigu, and Gerasimov

---

I've also seen a couple interviews with foreign fighters that have gone over there, and they've reported that the well-trained Ukrainian troops that are getting specialized NATO training in how to use javelins and other high-tech equipment have had the highest rates of casualty since they're doing the most dangerous missions.

---

Among other reasons. NATO doesn't really know how to train for this kind of war, yet they insisted on training new recruits in order to start with a tabula rasa. Ukrainians themselves have been bitter about the results.

---

Maybe, but my point was more to show that this is a David versus Goliath situation, and without a miracle, I don't see David winning this through simply giving him more/better conventional weaponry. Personally, if I were president, I would want Ukraine to draw some sort of line in the sand to show what terms they're willing to accept to end the war other than this Braveheart stuff I've seen ie " Russia goes back home and stops at every house along the way to beg forgiveness for 100 years of rape and pillage". It's very romantic, and I understand the sentiment, but it's not realistic.

---

I don't disagree. They would have lost much less in terms of lives and territory that way.

---

Not sure that Ukraine could have made a peace treaty without prior approval of the Biden administration.

---

Bingo.

A lot of media outlets (some posters on here will say they are Russian propaganda) report that it was DC that prevented Ukraine from suing for peace

Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Ukrainians north of Kharkiv are reported to have fled the Russian advance. Russians captured about a dozen small villages and gained a foothold five kilometers deep by fifteen kilometers wide in a single day using only a few battalions.

---

Ukrainian morale is cracking.

Their best troops are already dead and money alone can't replace them.

None of this should be a surprise to anyone who looked past early western propaganda and compared the economic and military capabilities of the two countries.

Hundreds of thousands dead due to the inept miscalculations of two men.

Horrible tragedy.

---

Ukraine is not cracking quite yet, and still have their entire male population under age 25 available for service.

I would suggest three men are primarily responsible for the death toll: Putin, Shoigu, and Gerasimov

---

I've also seen a couple interviews with foreign fighters that have gone over there, and they've reported that the well-trained Ukrainian troops that are getting specialized NATO training in how to use javelins and other high-tech equipment have had the highest rates of casualty since they're doing the most dangerous missions.

---

Among other reasons. NATO doesn't really know how to train for this kind of war, yet they insisted on training new recruits in order to start with a tabula rasa. Ukrainians themselves have been bitter about the results.

---

Maybe, but my point was more to show that this is a David versus Goliath situation, and without a miracle, I don't see David winning this through simply giving him more/better conventional weaponry. Personally, if I were president, I would want Ukraine to draw some sort of line in the sand to show what terms they're willing to accept to end the war other than this Braveheart stuff I've seen ie " Russia goes back home and stops at every house along the way to beg forgiveness for 100 years of rape and pillage". It's very romantic, and I understand the sentiment, but it's not realistic.

---

I don't disagree. They would have lost much less in terms of lives and territory that way.

---

Not sure that Ukraine could have made a peace treaty without prior approval of the Biden administration.

---

Bingo.

A lot of media outlets (some posters on here will say they are Russian propaganda) report that it was DC they prevented Ukraine from suing for peace

---

100% fake news. Ukraine has always had 100% discretion to fight or settle. They made the difficult decision to reject Russia's offer and instead fight. If things continue to go Russia's way, it may very well prove to have been a bad decision in hindsight. But it's not easy giving up your sovereignty to a tyrant without a fight. Very few in world history have done so.

Now, you can accuse the U.S. and Euros for not pushing Ukraine hard enough. But that is different.

Facing Russian Advance, a Top Ukrainian General Paints a Bleak Picture

Ukraine's forces are stretched thin and have minimal reserves to draw on, the chief of military intelligence said, in addition to shortages of weapons.

By Constant Meheut, Maria Varenikova and Michael Schwirz
Reporting from Kyiv, Ukraine
May 14, 2024, 3:31 a.m. ET

Ukraine's military is confronting a "critical" situation in the country's northeast, facing troop shortages as it tries to repel a Russian offensive that has been advancing for several days, a top Ukrainian general said on Monday.

"The situation is on the edge," Gen. Kyrylo Budanov, the head of Ukraine's military intelligence agency, said in a video call from a bunker in Kharkiv. "Every hour this situation moves toward critical."

Like most Ukrainian officials and military experts, General Budanov said he believes the Russian attacks in the northeast are intended to stretch Ukraine's already thin reserves of soldiers and divert them from fighting elsewhere.

That is exactly what is happening now, he acknowledged. He said the Ukrainian army was trying to redirect troops from other front line areas to shore up its defenses in the northeast, but that it had been difficult to find the personnel.

"All of our forces are either here or in Chasiv Yar," he said, referring to a Ukrainian stronghold about 120 miles farther south that Russian troops have assaulted in recent weeks. "I've used everything we have. Unfortunately, we don't have anyone else in the reserves."

In a possible sign of Ukraine's difficulties on the battlefield, the Ukrainian commander responsible for the northeast front was dismissed and replaced on Monday, according to President Volodymyr Zelensky.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/russia-ukraine-kharkiv.html

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Ukrainians north of Kharkiv are reported to have fled the Russian advance. Russians captured about a dozen small villages and gained a foothold five kilometers deep by fifteen kilometers wide in a single day using only a few battalions.

---

Ukrainian morale is cracking.

Their best troops are already dead and money alone can't replace them.

None of this should be a surprise to anyone who looked past early western propaganda and compared the economic and military capabilities of the two countries.

Hundreds of thousands dead due to the inept miscalculations of two men.

Horrible tragedy.

---

Ukraine is not cracking quite yet, and still have their entire male population under age 25 available for service.

I would suggest three men are primarily responsible for the death toll: Putin, Shoigu, and Gerasimov

---

I've also seen a couple interviews with foreign fighters that have gone over there, and they've reported that the well-trained Ukrainian troops that are getting specialized NATO training in how to use javelins and other high-tech equipment have had the highest rates of casualty since they're doing the most dangerous missions.

---

Among other reasons. NATO doesn't really know how to train for this kind of war, yet they insisted on training new recruits in order to start with a tabula rasa. Ukrainians themselves have been bitter about the results.

---

Maybe, but my point was more to show that this is a David versus Goliath situation, and without a miracle, I don't see David winning this through simply giving him more/better conventional weaponry. Personally, if I were president, I would want Ukraine to draw some sort of line in the sand to show what terms they're willing to accept to end the war other than this Braveheart stuff I've seen ie " Russia goes back home and stops at every house along the way to beg forgiveness for 100 years of rape and pillage". It's very romantic, and I understand the sentiment, but it's not realistic.

---

I don't disagree. They would have lost much less in terms of lives and territory that way.

---

Not sure that Ukraine could have made a peace treaty without prior approval of the Biden administration.

---

Bingo.

A lot of media outlets (some posters on here will say they are Russian propaganda) report that it was DC they prevented Ukraine from suing for peace

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100% fake news. Ukraine has always had 100% discretion to fight or settle. They made the difficult decision to reject Russia's offer and instead fight. If things continue to go Russia's way, it may very well prove to have been a bad decision in hindsight. But it's not easy giving up your sovereignty to a tyrant without a fight. Very few in world history have done so.

Now, you can accuse the U.S. and Euros for not pushing Ukraine hard enough. But that is different.

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Not really news, but 100% true.

Quote:

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An even bigger obstacle to further talks may have been the arrival in Kyiv on April 6 of British Prime Minister Boris Johnson. According to Davyd Arakhhamia, Ukraine's chief negotiator at Istanbul, "Johnson brought two simple messages to Kyiv. The first is that Putin is a war criminal; he should be pressured, not negotiated with. And the second is that even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they [the NATO powers] are not." Three days after Johnson returned home Putin announced publicly that talks with Ukraine "had reached a dead end." For his part, Johnson promised Zelensky $130 million of military equipment and $500 million kin financial aid, while President Biden announced a $800 million military package to Ukraine.

Johnson's intervention has been discounted on the grounds that he was in no position to tell the Ukrainian government what to do. This is legally correct, but vacuous. He was in a position to tell them under what conditions Britain (and the USA) would supply further military and economic aid. Had Johnson's promise of support been conditional rather than unconditional, it is inconceivable that negotiations would not have continued. (On US and British sabotage of tentative Ukrainian-Russian peace talks, see David von Drehle in The Washington Post and Ted Snider in The American Conservative.)

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/ukraine-russia-war-peace-diplomacy/

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What really happened:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/22/boris-johnson-ukraine-2022-peace-talks-russia

Bear8084 said:

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What really happened:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/22/boris-johnson-ukraine-2022-peace-talks-russia

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Thanks for confirming.

Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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What really happened:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/22/boris-johnson-ukraine-2022-peace-talks-russia

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Thanks for confirming.

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Not really.