Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

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sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

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sombear said:

---

If we invaded Mexico, and the entire free world and Russia were supporting Mexico with money and weapons, we would not attack the entire free world and Russia.

Of course, we would not invade Mexico in the first place.

---

The US has repeatedly attacked Mexico and various other countries in our western hemisphere for far less.

Amazing to me how many college graduates are so incredibly unaware of US history within the last 100 years and especially since the end of WW2.

Reminds me just how easy it is to manipulate our undereducated masses.

---

I'd love to meet the history professor who taught you we invaded Mexico within the last 100 years . . . .

Regardless, you failed to address any of my point.

If TODAY, we invaded Mexico, and most of the free world and Russia supported Mexico, we would not attack the free world and Russia.

And BTW, who have we (1) full-fledged invaded, (2) with the intent to take over the land and country, (3) without being threatened or attacked, (4) without the country we attacked invading another country, (5) with virtually the entire free world supporting the country we invaded, and (6) without the country violating internationally-imposed sanctions?

---

OK the Pershing Expedition was approximately 109 years ago.



The point is the same.



Bottom line.

In the reverse situation the US would do something very similar as the Russians are doing .

Common sense and the least bit of awareness of US military interventions throughout central America, the Far East, the Middle East , eastern Europe and the Philippines should make this obvious.

In fact NO ONE has invaded more other countries, bombed other countries than the United States since 1940.

Yet we claim the ' moral high ground' because a dementia riddled 81 year old says we should ?

We increasingly risk WW3 for a country the US has NEVER considered vital to its national security because the Biden crime family tells us we should ?

Insanity

---

Your anti-American bias is sad. I wish you could find a better country in which to live. Putin would be glad to have you . . . assuming you aren't a Christian, Ukrainian, capitalist, free speech advocate, or government opponent.

Pershing went after a revolutionary who attacked New Mexico. How any part of you could raise that in a discussion about Russia full-fledge invading and trying to take over a free, democratic neighbor is stunning.

I've explained my support of Ukraine numerous times on here, and I will wire you $10k if you can find even the slightest hint that my support is based in any way on my faith in Crazy Joe. That might be the greatest straw man ever erected on this site, and that is saying something . . . .

---

Yeah when facts / reality gets in the way just claim the guy is anti American.

How simplistic….how bloody stupid.

I have seen enough unnecessary bloodshed. To be led by unbelievable dishonest political and media propaganda into still another pointless disaster just isn't my goal.

And it shouldn't be for anyone with enough sense to connect the dots with an obviously dementia suffering 81 year old Commander in Chief.

If you are crazy enough not to see with your own eyes just how bad Biden is physically and mentally there is nothing else to say .

---

Absolutely, far too much bloodshed, and there is a quick and easy solution: Russia withdraws right now.

---

My apologies to ATL.

---

No more naive than thinking Ukraine will accept:

- giving up the entire east
- installing a Russian stooge and aligning with Russia
- dismantling its military
- disengaging economically from the west
- instituting pro-Russia federal education curriculum
- agreeing to no political or diplomatic alliances with the west
- and a few other gems . . . .

---

Ukraine would have accepted Russia's terms (the actual terms, not necessarily the ones you listed) if not for our influence. What they eventually accept will be worse than what they would have had a year or two ago. It certainly won't include any Russian retreat from Crimea or eastern Ukraine.

---

How can the terms get worse? The only thing worse would be Russia flat taking over all of Ukraine, which you claim Putin has never wanted.

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

If we invaded Mexico, and the entire free world and Russia were supporting Mexico with money and weapons, we would not attack the entire free world and Russia.

Of course, we would not invade Mexico in the first place.

---

The US has repeatedly attacked Mexico and various other countries in our western hemisphere for far less.

Amazing to me how many college graduates are so incredibly unaware of US history within the last 100 years and especially since the end of WW2.

Reminds me just how easy it is to manipulate our undereducated masses.

---

I'd love to meet the history professor who taught you we invaded Mexico within the last 100 years . . . .

Regardless, you failed to address any of my point.

If TODAY, we invaded Mexico, and most of the free world and Russia supported Mexico, we would not attack the free world and Russia.

And BTW, who have we (1) full-fledged invaded, (2) with the intent to take over the land and country, (3) without being threatened or attacked, (4) without the country we attacked invading another country, (5) with virtually the entire free world supporting the country we invaded, and (6) without the country violating internationally-imposed sanctions?

---

OK the Pershing Expedition was approximately 109 years ago.



The point is the same.



Bottom line.

In the reverse situation the US would do something very similar as the Russians are doing .

Common sense and the least bit of awareness of US military interventions throughout central America, the Far East, the Middle East , eastern Europe and the Philippines should make this obvious.

In fact NO ONE has invaded more other countries, bombed other countries than the United States since 1940.

Yet we claim the ' moral high ground' because a dementia riddled 81 year old says we should ?

We increasingly risk WW3 for a country the US has NEVER considered vital to its national security because the Biden crime family tells us we should ?

Insanity

---

Your anti-American bias is sad. I wish you could find a better country in which to live. Putin would be glad to have you . . . assuming you aren't a Christian, Ukrainian, capitalist, free speech advocate, or government opponent.

Pershing went after a revolutionary who attacked New Mexico. How any part of you could raise that in a discussion about Russia full-fledge invading and trying to take over a free, democratic neighbor is stunning.

I've explained my support of Ukraine numerous times on here, and I will wire you $10k if you can find even the slightest hint that my support is based in any way on my faith in Crazy Joe. That might be the greatest straw man ever erected on this site, and that is saying something . . . .

---

Yeah when facts / reality gets in the way just claim the guy is anti American.

How simplistic….how bloody stupid.

I have seen enough unnecessary bloodshed. To be led by unbelievable dishonest political and media propaganda into still another pointless disaster just isn't my goal.

And it shouldn't be for anyone with enough sense to connect the dots with an obviously dementia suffering 81 year old Commander in Chief.

If you are crazy enough not to see with your own eyes just how bad Biden is physically and mentally there is nothing else to say .

---

Absolutely, far too much bloodshed, and there is a quick and easy solution: Russia withdraws right now.

---

My apologies to ATL.

---

No more naive than thinking Ukraine will accept:

- giving up the entire east
- installing a Russian stooge and aligning with Russia
- dismantling its military
- disengaging economically from the west
- instituting pro-Russia federal education curriculum
- agreeing to no political or diplomatic alliances with the west
- and a few other gems . . . .

---

Ukraine would have accepted Russia's terms (the actual terms, not necessarily the ones you listed) if not for our influence. What they eventually accept will be worse than what they would have had a year or two ago. It certainly won't include any Russian retreat from Crimea or eastern Ukraine.

---

How can the terms get worse? The only thing worse would be Russia flat taking over all of Ukraine, which you claim Putin has never wanted.

---

He never has wanted to. The question is, what's your alternative?

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

If we invaded Mexico, and the entire free world and Russia were supporting Mexico with money and weapons, we would not attack the entire free world and Russia.

Of course, we would not invade Mexico in the first place.

---

The US has repeatedly attacked Mexico and various other countries in our western hemisphere for far less.

Amazing to me how many college graduates are so incredibly unaware of US history within the last 100 years and especially since the end of WW2.

Reminds me just how easy it is to manipulate our undereducated masses.

---

I'd love to meet the history professor who taught you we invaded Mexico within the last 100 years . . . .

Regardless, you failed to address any of my point.

If TODAY, we invaded Mexico, and most of the free world and Russia supported Mexico, we would not attack the free world and Russia.

And BTW, who have we (1) full-fledged invaded, (2) with the intent to take over the land and country, (3) without being threatened or attacked, (4) without the country we attacked invading another country, (5) with virtually the entire free world supporting the country we invaded, and (6) without the country violating internationally-imposed sanctions?

---

OK the Pershing Expedition was approximately 109 years ago.



The point is the same.



Bottom line.

In the reverse situation the US would do something very similar as the Russians are doing .

Common sense and the least bit of awareness of US military interventions throughout central America, the Far East, the Middle East , eastern Europe and the Philippines should make this obvious.

In fact NO ONE has invaded more other countries, bombed other countries than the United States since 1940.

Yet we claim the ' moral high ground' because a dementia riddled 81 year old says we should ?

We increasingly risk WW3 for a country the US has NEVER considered vital to its national security because the Biden crime family tells us we should ?

Insanity

---

Your anti-American bias is sad. I wish you could find a better country in which to live. Putin would be glad to have you . . . assuming you aren't a Christian, Ukrainian, capitalist, free speech advocate, or government opponent.

Pershing went after a revolutionary who attacked New Mexico. How any part of you could raise that in a discussion about Russia full-fledge invading and trying to take over a free, democratic neighbor is stunning.

I've explained my support of Ukraine numerous times on here, and I will wire you $10k if you can find even the slightest hint that my support is based in any way on my faith in Crazy Joe. That might be the greatest straw man ever erected on this site, and that is saying something . . . .

---

Yeah when facts / reality gets in the way just claim the guy is anti American.

How simplistic….how bloody stupid.

I have seen enough unnecessary bloodshed. To be led by unbelievable dishonest political and media propaganda into still another pointless disaster just isn't my goal.

And it shouldn't be for anyone with enough sense to connect the dots with an obviously dementia suffering 81 year old Commander in Chief.

If you are crazy enough not to see with your own eyes just how bad Biden is physically and mentally there is nothing else to say .

---

Absolutely, far too much bloodshed, and there is a quick and easy solution: Russia withdraws right now.

---

My apologies to ATL.

---

No more naive than thinking Ukraine will accept:

- giving up the entire east
- installing a Russian stooge and aligning with Russia
- dismantling its military
- disengaging economically from the west
- instituting pro-Russia federal education curriculum
- agreeing to no political or diplomatic alliances with the west
- and a few other gems . . . .

---

Ukraine would have accepted Russia's terms (the actual terms, not necessarily the ones you listed) if not for our influence. What they eventually accept will be worse than what they would have had a year or two ago. It certainly won't include any Russian retreat from Crimea or eastern Ukraine.

---

Those were the actual terms as reported in two comprehensive articles (which I've posted) and as Putin himself has divulged in speeches.

It obviously makes you and your Putin cronies feel better about your position by blaming the U.S. and Zelensky. But the incontrovertible fact is that from the very start, the vast majority of Ukrainians have wanted to defend their country and their way of life. The big bad bogeyman U.S. had/has nothing to do with that.

---

We've been over that, and we're not going to agree on the facts. But however you may feel about the West's rationalizations, it doesn't change how the Russians feel. If they believe they're threatened, they're going to react as if threatened. And there's no higher court to appeal to.

ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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KaiBear said:

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trey3216 said:

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KaiBear said:

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trey3216 said:

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KaiBear said:

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trey3216 said:

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KaiBear said:

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trey3216 said:

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KaiBear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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The BBC is reporting that 4 Russian civilians ( including 2 children ) were killed and 150 wounded by US made missiles launched by Ukraine.

Russia is claiming US specialists operated the missiles and that they were guided by US satellites.

Putin reportedly has promised a ' response '.



Time is running out. Reality is approaching day by day.


Joe Biden and his handlers are dragging the US into war with the country possessing the most hydrogen bombs on the entire planet.

Drop the foolish the Rambo / video game mentality and tell your representatives to stop this insanity.

---

Awww, little Vlady, whose troops rape, kidnap, and murder Ukrainian women and children, got his feelings hurt . . . so sad . . . .

Has he blamed us for the terrorist attacks yet?

---

You just can't be this stupid.

Can you not connect the dots and evaluate where this could lead ?



Just how long before the Russian people demand an attack on US targets ?


If the Mexican drug cartels were killing US civilians with Russian supplied and Russian guided missiles.....
just how long would the US president wait for a response ?

---

so he can launch missiles at apartment buildings, markets, malls, hospitals, kidnap 100k children, rape tens of thousands of women, but something the US didn't even do is the US's fault. You're an absolute idiot if you can't see this is not our fault.

---

Yes

It's a brilliant idea to supply missiles for another country to use in killing the civilians of a nuclear power with whom we are not at war with.

Yet


Just how long do you really believe Putin is going to tolerate US actions ? Another month or year ?

Just how many Russian civilians need to die before the political realities force Putin's hand ?

And try to focus ……..we are risking all this on behalf of a country the US has never considered vital to its strategic defense.

But now, somehow, someway Ukraine is worth billions of dollars ( we have to borrow to provide) and worth risking nuclear war ( that no one on this free message board is willing to fight )

---

there is no US "action" without Putin's own actions. It's his own damn fault.

---

A. It is not Putin's sole responsibility. Only a simpleton or John Wayne impersonator could fail to comprehend the political, economic and military actions of the United States in Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion.

B. MILLIONS of Ukrainians starved to death in the 1930's due to Stalin 's collectivization of Ukrainian farms.

The United States did nothing.

C. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were EXECUTED by Stalin in the 1940's following WW2 for 'collaborating' with the Germans.

The United States did nothing.

D. So doesn't it make you wonder why NOW is the United States providing BILLIONS of dollars we have to BORROW just to give it to Ukraine ? Why NOW is the United States willing to risk war with Russia by providing missiles and other weapons which are being employed on RUSSIAN CIVILIANS ?

E. And we are all comfortable and confident that these actions of the United States are well thought out and risks property evaluated by our president and Commander in Chief….JOE BIDEN ?

An old man in his 80's who is showing obvious signs of dementia on a weekly basis ?
An old man who can barely speak, freezes in place, and can not remember what he did even a week ago ?


But magically this guy can lead the US safely in a proxy war with the Russian people ?




Insanity

---

Missiles haven't been deployed on Russian civilians you idiot. The one you are fretting over was a missile that was hit by air defense missiles. ATACMS don't miss this badly....

Russian air defense reportedly shot down an ATACMS cluster munitions variant in occupied Sevastopol 2 days ago. The amount of submunitions hitting the water/beach and how they are dispersed (wider than usual) seems to confirm the missile was downed.

This beach is only 5km away… pic.twitter.com/Bf7dwFeqcj

— NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) June 25, 2024

---

You just might be the only poster dumber than Waco47. Four Russian civilians were killed as a result of a Ukrainian missile attack using American supplied, possibly American guided weapons.

An obvious escalation of a war brought on in part by the oldest president in American history. A president with obvious signs of dementia.

But for some unknown reason this same old man has your blind faith in his ability to safely fight a proxy war.

---

LOL. I have zero faith in some old man. I hate Biden more than 99% of the people in this country. You, on the other hand, have no idea what you're talking about regarding weaponry and what is going on here.

---

Suspect I have more first hand experience with military hardware than most.

If Russian civilian casualties continue to pile up due to the use of American supplied munitions…..Putin will have no real choice but to retaliate. The Russian people will demand it.

This should be obvious to anyone.

---

And what the Russian people demand or want doesn't matter in an autocracy like Putin's. That should be obvious.

---

This may be the most naive post on the thread, which after a year-plus is really saying something.

---

He successfully shapes, frames, and exploits sentiment the same way he has you hornswoggled Sam.

---

You should tell that to the Biden administration because they obviously believe otherwise. That's the only reason they would allow Ukraine to lob missiles into Russian territory, which serves no military purpose.

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

If we invaded Mexico, and the entire free world and Russia were supporting Mexico with money and weapons, we would not attack the entire free world and Russia.

Of course, we would not invade Mexico in the first place.

---

The US has repeatedly attacked Mexico and various other countries in our western hemisphere for far less.

Amazing to me how many college graduates are so incredibly unaware of US history within the last 100 years and especially since the end of WW2.

Reminds me just how easy it is to manipulate our undereducated masses.

---

I'd love to meet the history professor who taught you we invaded Mexico within the last 100 years . . . .

Regardless, you failed to address any of my point.

If TODAY, we invaded Mexico, and most of the free world and Russia supported Mexico, we would not attack the free world and Russia.

And BTW, who have we (1) full-fledged invaded, (2) with the intent to take over the land and country, (3) without being threatened or attacked, (4) without the country we attacked invading another country, (5) with virtually the entire free world supporting the country we invaded, and (6) without the country violating internationally-imposed sanctions?

---

OK the Pershing Expedition was approximately 109 years ago.



The point is the same.



Bottom line.

In the reverse situation the US would do something very similar as the Russians are doing .

Common sense and the least bit of awareness of US military interventions throughout central America, the Far East, the Middle East , eastern Europe and the Philippines should make this obvious.

In fact NO ONE has invaded more other countries, bombed other countries than the United States since 1940.

Yet we claim the ' moral high ground' because a dementia riddled 81 year old says we should ?

We increasingly risk WW3 for a country the US has NEVER considered vital to its national security because the Biden crime family tells us we should ?

Insanity

---

Your anti-American bias is sad. I wish you could find a better country in which to live. Putin would be glad to have you . . . assuming you aren't a Christian, Ukrainian, capitalist, free speech advocate, or government opponent.

Pershing went after a revolutionary who attacked New Mexico. How any part of you could raise that in a discussion about Russia full-fledge invading and trying to take over a free, democratic neighbor is stunning.

I've explained my support of Ukraine numerous times on here, and I will wire you $10k if you can find even the slightest hint that my support is based in any way on my faith in Crazy Joe. That might be the greatest straw man ever erected on this site, and that is saying something . . . .

---

Yeah when facts / reality gets in the way just claim the guy is anti American.

How simplistic….how bloody stupid.

I have seen enough unnecessary bloodshed. To be led by unbelievable dishonest political and media propaganda into still another pointless disaster just isn't my goal.

And it shouldn't be for anyone with enough sense to connect the dots with an obviously dementia suffering 81 year old Commander in Chief.

If you are crazy enough not to see with your own eyes just how bad Biden is physically and mentally there is nothing else to say .

---

Absolutely, far too much bloodshed, and there is a quick and easy solution: Russia withdraws right now.

---

My apologies to ATL.

---

No more naive than thinking Ukraine will accept:

- giving up the entire east
- installing a Russian stooge and aligning with Russia
- dismantling its military
- disengaging economically from the west
- instituting pro-Russia federal education curriculum
- agreeing to no political or diplomatic alliances with the west
- and a few other gems . . . .

---

Ukraine would have accepted Russia's terms (the actual terms, not necessarily the ones you listed) if not for our influence. What they eventually accept will be worse than what they would have had a year or two ago. It certainly won't include any Russian retreat from Crimea or eastern Ukraine.

---

How can the terms get worse? The only thing worse would be Russia flat taking over all of Ukraine, which you claim Putin has never wanted.

---

He never has wanted to. The question is, what's your alternative?

---

With the unexpected fierceness of Ukrainian resistance resulting in hundreds of thousands of Russian dead and wounded; Putin's price for peace has undoubtedly increased .

He's got a faulty premise that he cannot/will not drop, no matter how many times it has been pointed out to us. Providing weapons to a sovereign country is not an act of war.

We supplied the Taliban with Stinger missiles to shoot down Russian aircraft in Afghanistan, a nation contiguous to the USSR, and Russia did not declare war on us.

We had robust military and intelligence relationships in Iran, a nation contiguous to the USSR, and Russia did not declare war on us.

Turkey, a nation contiguous to the USSR, joined Nato, fer crissakes, and Russia did not declare war on us.

China and Russia richly supported the Viet Cong....it was Russian missiles shooting down our pilots over Hanoi....and we did not declare war on Russia.

I mean, the list of examples is quite long. Russia is not going to respond to Nato support to Ukraine by attacking Nato. It would guarantee Russian defeat in Ukraine. Russia will keep the ongoing proxy war as a proxy war because it is overwhelmingly in its interest to do so.

whiterock said:

---

He's got a faulty premise that he cannot/will not drop, no matter how many times it has been pointed out to us. Providing weapons to a sovereign country is not an act of war.

We supplied the Taliban with Stinger missiles to shoot down Russian aircraft in Afghanistan, a nation contiguous to the USSR, and Russia did not declare war on us.

We had robust military and intelligence relationships in Iran, a nation contiguous to the USSR, and Russia did not declare war on us.

Turkey, a nation contiguous to the USSR, joined Nato, fer crissakes, and Russia did not declare war on us.

China and Russia richly supported the Viet Cong....it was Russian missiles shooting down our pilots over Hanoi....and we did not declare war on Russia.

I mean, the list of examples is quite long. Russia is not going to respond to Nato support to Ukraine by attacking Nato. It would guarantee Russian defeat in Ukraine. Russia will keep the ongoing proxy war as a proxy war because it is overwhelmingly in its interest to do so.

---

Solid points. Good post.

The big difference in this case is US missiles are killing Russian civilians in Russia itself.

If casualties increase Putin will have to respond in a manner which pleases the Russian people or eventually be deposed.

whiterock said:

---

He's got a faulty premise that he cannot/will not drop, no matter how many times it has been pointed out to us. Providing weapons to a sovereign country is not an act of war.

We supplied the Taliban with Stinger missiles to shoot down Russian aircraft in Afghanistan, a nation contiguous to the USSR, and Russia did not declare war on us.

We had robust military and intelligence relationships in Iran, a nation contiguous to the USSR, and Russia did not declare war on us.

Turkey, a nation contiguous to the USSR, joined Nato, fer crissakes, and Russia did not declare war on us.

China and Russia richly supported the Viet Cong....it was Russian missiles shooting down our pilots over Hanoi....and we did not declare war on Russia.

I mean, the list of examples is quite long. Russia is not going to respond to Nato support to Ukraine by attacking Nato. It would guarantee Russian defeat in Ukraine. Russia will keep the ongoing proxy war as a proxy war because it is overwhelmingly in its interest to do so.

---

I think Putin has gotten what he wants and would like to end this thing. The only negotiation point left from Ukraine's side is NATO membership, they have lost the territory. Fair or not, Russia is not leaving.

Poland and the Baltics now want a wall, a DMZ is going to be more realistic. The Industrial Military Complex will get their cut arming the DMZ, Ukraine will become part of that. We are back to the Cold War...

I think the outlier is that after the N Korea visit, Putin realizes he is an outsider in the Orient no matter what he does. I see him trying to mend fences with the West. Russia west of the Urals is European, definitely more than Oriental.

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

He's got a faulty premise that he cannot/will not drop, no matter how many times it has been pointed out to us. Providing weapons to a sovereign country is not an act of war.

We supplied the Taliban with Stinger missiles to shoot down Russian aircraft in Afghanistan, a nation contiguous to the USSR, and Russia did not declare war on us.

We had robust military and intelligence relationships in Iran, a nation contiguous to the USSR, and Russia did not declare war on us.

Turkey, a nation contiguous to the USSR, joined Nato, fer crissakes, and Russia did not declare war on us.

China and Russia richly supported the Viet Cong....it was Russian missiles shooting down our pilots over Hanoi....and we did not declare war on Russia.

I mean, the list of examples is quite long. Russia is not going to respond to Nato support to Ukraine by attacking Nato. It would guarantee Russian defeat in Ukraine. Russia will keep the ongoing proxy war as a proxy war because it is overwhelmingly in its interest to do so.

---

Solid points. Good post.

The big difference in this case is US missiles are killing Russian civilians in Russia itself.

If casualties increase Putin will have to respond in a manner which pleases the Russian people or eventually be deposed.

---

Also, Russia did NOT just accept missiles in Turkey.

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

If we invaded Mexico, and the entire free world and Russia were supporting Mexico with money and weapons, we would not attack the entire free world and Russia.

Of course, we would not invade Mexico in the first place.

---

The US has repeatedly attacked Mexico and various other countries in our western hemisphere for far less.

Amazing to me how many college graduates are so incredibly unaware of US history within the last 100 years and especially since the end of WW2.

Reminds me just how easy it is to manipulate our undereducated masses.

---

I'd love to meet the history professor who taught you we invaded Mexico within the last 100 years . . . .

Regardless, you failed to address any of my point.

If TODAY, we invaded Mexico, and most of the free world and Russia supported Mexico, we would not attack the free world and Russia.

And BTW, who have we (1) full-fledged invaded, (2) with the intent to take over the land and country, (3) without being threatened or attacked, (4) without the country we attacked invading another country, (5) with virtually the entire free world supporting the country we invaded, and (6) without the country violating internationally-imposed sanctions?

---

OK the Pershing Expedition was approximately 109 years ago.



The point is the same.



Bottom line.

In the reverse situation the US would do something very similar as the Russians are doing .

Common sense and the least bit of awareness of US military interventions throughout central America, the Far East, the Middle East , eastern Europe and the Philippines should make this obvious.

In fact NO ONE has invaded more other countries, bombed other countries than the United States since 1940.

Yet we claim the ' moral high ground' because a dementia riddled 81 year old says we should ?

We increasingly risk WW3 for a country the US has NEVER considered vital to its national security because the Biden crime family tells us we should ?

Insanity

---

Your anti-American bias is sad. I wish you could find a better country in which to live. Putin would be glad to have you . . . assuming you aren't a Christian, Ukrainian, capitalist, free speech advocate, or government opponent.

Pershing went after a revolutionary who attacked New Mexico. How any part of you could raise that in a discussion about Russia full-fledge invading and trying to take over a free, democratic neighbor is stunning.

I've explained my support of Ukraine numerous times on here, and I will wire you $10k if you can find even the slightest hint that my support is based in any way on my faith in Crazy Joe. That might be the greatest straw man ever erected on this site, and that is saying something . . . .

---

Yeah when facts / reality gets in the way just claim the guy is anti American.

How simplistic….how bloody stupid.

I have seen enough unnecessary bloodshed. To be led by unbelievable dishonest political and media propaganda into still another pointless disaster just isn't my goal.

And it shouldn't be for anyone with enough sense to connect the dots with an obviously dementia suffering 81 year old Commander in Chief.

If you are crazy enough not to see with your own eyes just how bad Biden is physically and mentally there is nothing else to say .

---

Absolutely, far too much bloodshed, and there is a quick and easy solution: Russia withdraws right now.

---

My apologies to ATL.

---

No more naive than thinking Ukraine will accept:

- giving up the entire east
- installing a Russian stooge and aligning with Russia
- dismantling its military
- disengaging economically from the west
- instituting pro-Russia federal education curriculum
- agreeing to no political or diplomatic alliances with the west
- and a few other gems . . . .

---

Ukraine would have accepted Russia's terms (the actual terms, not necessarily the ones you listed) if not for our influence. What they eventually accept will be worse than what they would have had a year or two ago. It certainly won't include any Russian retreat from Crimea or eastern Ukraine.

---

Those were the actual terms as reported in two comprehensive articles (which I've posted) and as Putin himself has divulged in speeches.

It obviously makes you and your Putin cronies feel better about your position by blaming the U.S. and Zelensky. But the incontrovertible fact is that from the very start, the vast majority of Ukrainians have wanted to defend their country and their way of life. The big bad bogeyman U.S. had/has nothing to do with that.

---

We've been over that, and we're not going to agree on the facts. But however you may feel about the West's rationalizations, it doesn't change how the Russians feel. If they believe they're threatened, they're going to react as if threatened. And there's no higher court to appeal to.

---

Wait, are you saying you reject the polls (including Moscow based polls) that have consistently showed overwhelming Ukrainian support for defending against Russia?

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

He's got a faulty premise that he cannot/will not drop, no matter how many times it has been pointed out to us. Providing weapons to a sovereign country is not an act of war.

We supplied the Taliban with Stinger missiles to shoot down Russian aircraft in Afghanistan, a nation contiguous to the USSR, and Russia did not declare war on us.

We had robust military and intelligence relationships in Iran, a nation contiguous to the USSR, and Russia did not declare war on us.

Turkey, a nation contiguous to the USSR, joined Nato, fer crissakes, and Russia did not declare war on us.

China and Russia richly supported the Viet Cong....it was Russian missiles shooting down our pilots over Hanoi....and we did not declare war on Russia.

I mean, the list of examples is quite long. Russia is not going to respond to Nato support to Ukraine by attacking Nato. It would guarantee Russian defeat in Ukraine. Russia will keep the ongoing proxy war as a proxy war because it is overwhelmingly in its interest to do so.

---

I think Putin has gotten what he wants and would like to end this thing. The only negotiation point left from Ukraine's side is NATO membership, they have lost the territory. Fair or not, Russia is not leaving.

Poland and the Baltics now want a wall, a DMZ is going to be more realistic. The Industrial Military Complex will get their cut arming the DMZ, Ukraine will become part of that. We are back to the Cold War...

I think the outlier is that after the N Korea visit, Putin realizes he is an outsider in the Orient no matter what he does. I see him trying to mend fences with the West. Russia west of the Urals is European, definitely more than Oriental.

---

His mobilization of supply will peak in about 12 months. After that, it's downhill. The manpower will hold up quite a bit longer, but he still will need to settle in the next 12 months, or it will get progressively more difficult for him to sustain the war effort. Nato is just now getting started with production increases. Once they get production lines up & running, life is going to get tougher for Russia.

---

Personally, I think he wanted Kiev to end it early. I don't think he was going to keep all of Ukraine, but Crimea and Donbas. This has gone on too long and definitely doesn't have the feel of trying to overtake all of Ukraine.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

He's got a faulty premise that he cannot/will not drop, no matter how many times it has been pointed out to us. Providing weapons to a sovereign country is not an act of war.

We supplied the Taliban with Stinger missiles to shoot down Russian aircraft in Afghanistan, a nation contiguous to the USSR, and Russia did not declare war on us.

We had robust military and intelligence relationships in Iran, a nation contiguous to the USSR, and Russia did not declare war on us.

Turkey, a nation contiguous to the USSR, joined Nato, fer crissakes, and Russia did not declare war on us.

China and Russia richly supported the Viet Cong....it was Russian missiles shooting down our pilots over Hanoi....and we did not declare war on Russia.

I mean, the list of examples is quite long. Russia is not going to respond to Nato support to Ukraine by attacking Nato. It would guarantee Russian defeat in Ukraine. Russia will keep the ongoing proxy war as a proxy war because it is overwhelmingly in its interest to do so.

---

I think Putin has gotten what he wants and would like to end this thing. The only negotiation point left from Ukraine's side is NATO membership, they have lost the territory. Fair or not, Russia is not leaving.

Poland and the Baltics now want a wall, a DMZ is going to be more realistic. The Industrial Military Complex will get their cut arming the DMZ, Ukraine will become part of that. We are back to the Cold War...

I think the outlier is that after the N Korea visit, Putin realizes he is an outsider in the Orient no matter what he does. I see him trying to mend fences with the West. Russia west of the Urals is European, definitely more than Oriental.

---

His mobilization of supply will peak in about 12 months. After that, it's downhill. The manpower will hold up quite a bit longer, but he still will need to settle in the next 12 months, or it will get progressively more difficult for him to sustain the war effort. Nato is just now getting started with production increases. Once they get production lines up & running, life is going to get tougher for Russia.

---

Personally, I think he wanted Kiev to end it early. I don't think he was going to keep all of Ukraine, but Crimea and Donbas. This has gone on too long and definitely doesn't have the feel of trying to overtake all of Ukraine.

---

yep. occupation force to establish a new constitution and government, then departure after securing basing rights anywhere in the country.

Basically Belarus 2.0

---

Agreed

But let's not ignore some other classes.
Iraq 2.0
Grenada 2.0
Panama 2.0
Philippines 2.0
South Korea 2.0
Nicaragua 2.0
Afghanistan 2.0
Vietnam 2.0

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

The BBC is reporting that 4 Russian civilians ( including 2 children ) were killed and 150 wounded by US made missiles launched by Ukraine.

Russia is claiming US specialists operated the missiles and that they were guided by US satellites.

Putin reportedly has promised a ' response '.



Time is running out. Reality is approaching day by day.


Joe Biden and his handlers are dragging the US into war with the country possessing the most hydrogen bombs on the entire planet.

Drop the foolish the Rambo / video game mentality and tell your representatives to stop this insanity.

---

Awww, little Vlady, whose troops rape, kidnap, and murder Ukrainian women and children, got his feelings hurt . . . so sad . . . .

Has he blamed us for the terrorist attacks yet?

---

You just can't be this stupid.

Can you not connect the dots and evaluate where this could lead ?



Just how long before the Russian people demand an attack on US targets ?


If the Mexican drug cartels were killing US civilians with Russian supplied and Russian guided missiles.....
just how long would the US president wait for a response ?

---

so he can launch missiles at apartment buildings, markets, malls, hospitals, kidnap 100k children, rape tens of thousands of women, but something the US didn't even do is the US's fault. You're an absolute idiot if you can't see this is not our fault.

---

Yes

It's a brilliant idea to supply missiles for another country to use in killing the civilians of a nuclear power with whom we are not at war with.

Yet


Just how long do you really believe Putin is going to tolerate US actions ? Another month or year ?

Just how many Russian civilians need to die before the political realities force Putin's hand ?

And try to focus ……..we are risking all this on behalf of a country the US has never considered vital to its strategic defense.

But now, somehow, someway Ukraine is worth billions of dollars ( we have to borrow to provide) and worth risking nuclear war ( that no one on this free message board is willing to fight )

---

there is no US "action" without Putin's own actions. It's his own damn fault.

---

A. It is not Putin's sole responsibility. Only a simpleton or John Wayne impersonator could fail to comprehend the political, economic and military actions of the United States in Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion.

B. MILLIONS of Ukrainians starved to death in the 1930's due to Stalin 's collectivization of Ukrainian farms.

The United States did nothing.

C. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were EXECUTED by Stalin in the 1940's following WW2 for 'collaborating' with the Germans.

The United States did nothing.

D. So doesn't it make you wonder why NOW is the United States providing BILLIONS of dollars we have to BORROW just to give it to Ukraine ? Why NOW is the United States willing to risk war with Russia by providing missiles and other weapons which are being employed on RUSSIAN CIVILIANS ?

E. And we are all comfortable and confident that these actions of the United States are well thought out and risks property evaluated by our president and Commander in Chief….JOE BIDEN ?

An old man in his 80's who is showing obvious signs of dementia on a weekly basis ?
An old man who can barely speak, freezes in place, and can not remember what he did even a week ago ?


But magically this guy can lead the US safely in a proxy war with the Russian people ?




Insanity

---

Missiles haven't been deployed on Russian civilians you idiot. The one you are fretting over was a missile that was hit by air defense missiles. ATACMS don't miss this badly....

Russian air defense reportedly shot down an ATACMS cluster munitions variant in occupied Sevastopol 2 days ago. The amount of submunitions hitting the water/beach and how they are dispersed (wider than usual) seems to confirm the missile was downed.

This beach is only 5km away… pic.twitter.com/Bf7dwFeqcj

— NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) June 25, 2024

---

You just might be the only poster dumber than Waco47. Four Russian civilians were killed as a result of a Ukrainian missile attack using American supplied, possibly American guided weapons.

An obvious escalation of a war brought on in part by the oldest president in American history. A president with obvious signs of dementia.

But for some unknown reason this same old man has your blind faith in his ability to safely fight a proxy war.

---

LOL. I have zero faith in some old man. I hate Biden more than 99% of the people in this country. You, on the other hand, have no idea what you're talking about regarding weaponry and what is going on here.

---

Suspect I have more first hand experience with military hardware than most.

If Russian civilian casualties continue to pile up due to the use of American supplied munitions…..Putin will have no real choice but to retaliate. The Russian people will demand it.

This should be obvious to anyone.

---

And what the Russian people demand or want doesn't matter in an autocracy like Putin's. That should be obvious.

---

This may be the most naive post on the thread, which after a year-plus is really saying something.

---

He successfully shapes, frames, and exploits sentiment the same way he has you hornswoggled Sam.

---

You should tell that to the Biden administration because they obviously believe otherwise. That's the only reason they would allow Ukraine to lob missiles into Russian territory, which serves no military purpose.

---

Maybe we should have Ukraine tell Russia what they plan next, Putin is kept happy.

---

They frequently do, and that's only one sign of how amateurish they are. But you're missing the point. The question is what the US should do, not Ukraine.

whiterock said:

---

He's got a faulty premise that he cannot/will not drop, no matter how many times it has been pointed out to us. Providing weapons to a sovereign country is not an act of war.

---

You know very well that we're not just providing weapons.

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

If we invaded Mexico, and the entire free world and Russia were supporting Mexico with money and weapons, we would not attack the entire free world and Russia.

Of course, we would not invade Mexico in the first place.

---

The US has repeatedly attacked Mexico and various other countries in our western hemisphere for far less.

Amazing to me how many college graduates are so incredibly unaware of US history within the last 100 years and especially since the end of WW2.

Reminds me just how easy it is to manipulate our undereducated masses.

---

I'd love to meet the history professor who taught you we invaded Mexico within the last 100 years . . . .

Regardless, you failed to address any of my point.

If TODAY, we invaded Mexico, and most of the free world and Russia supported Mexico, we would not attack the free world and Russia.

And BTW, who have we (1) full-fledged invaded, (2) with the intent to take over the land and country, (3) without being threatened or attacked, (4) without the country we attacked invading another country, (5) with virtually the entire free world supporting the country we invaded, and (6) without the country violating internationally-imposed sanctions?

---

OK the Pershing Expedition was approximately 109 years ago.



The point is the same.



Bottom line.

In the reverse situation the US would do something very similar as the Russians are doing .

Common sense and the least bit of awareness of US military interventions throughout central America, the Far East, the Middle East , eastern Europe and the Philippines should make this obvious.

In fact NO ONE has invaded more other countries, bombed other countries than the United States since 1940.

Yet we claim the ' moral high ground' because a dementia riddled 81 year old says we should ?

We increasingly risk WW3 for a country the US has NEVER considered vital to its national security because the Biden crime family tells us we should ?

Insanity

---

Your anti-American bias is sad. I wish you could find a better country in which to live. Putin would be glad to have you . . . assuming you aren't a Christian, Ukrainian, capitalist, free speech advocate, or government opponent.

Pershing went after a revolutionary who attacked New Mexico. How any part of you could raise that in a discussion about Russia full-fledge invading and trying to take over a free, democratic neighbor is stunning.

I've explained my support of Ukraine numerous times on here, and I will wire you $10k if you can find even the slightest hint that my support is based in any way on my faith in Crazy Joe. That might be the greatest straw man ever erected on this site, and that is saying something . . . .

---

Yeah when facts / reality gets in the way just claim the guy is anti American.

How simplistic….how bloody stupid.

I have seen enough unnecessary bloodshed. To be led by unbelievable dishonest political and media propaganda into still another pointless disaster just isn't my goal.

And it shouldn't be for anyone with enough sense to connect the dots with an obviously dementia suffering 81 year old Commander in Chief.

If you are crazy enough not to see with your own eyes just how bad Biden is physically and mentally there is nothing else to say .

---

Absolutely, far too much bloodshed, and there is a quick and easy solution: Russia withdraws right now.

---

My apologies to ATL.

---

No more naive than thinking Ukraine will accept:

- giving up the entire east
- installing a Russian stooge and aligning with Russia
- dismantling its military
- disengaging economically from the west
- instituting pro-Russia federal education curriculum
- agreeing to no political or diplomatic alliances with the west
- and a few other gems . . . .

---

Ukraine would have accepted Russia's terms (the actual terms, not necessarily the ones you listed) if not for our influence. What they eventually accept will be worse than what they would have had a year or two ago. It certainly won't include any Russian retreat from Crimea or eastern Ukraine.

---

Those were the actual terms as reported in two comprehensive articles (which I've posted) and as Putin himself has divulged in speeches.

It obviously makes you and your Putin cronies feel better about your position by blaming the U.S. and Zelensky. But the incontrovertible fact is that from the very start, the vast majority of Ukrainians have wanted to defend their country and their way of life. The big bad bogeyman U.S. had/has nothing to do with that.

---

We've been over that, and we're not going to agree on the facts. But however you may feel about the West's rationalizations, it doesn't change how the Russians feel. If they believe they're threatened, they're going to react as if threatened. And there's no higher court to appeal to.

---

Wait, are you saying you reject the polls (including Moscow based polls) that have consistently showed overwhelming Ukrainian support for defending against Russia?

---

I was commenting on the treaty terms, not the polls.

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

The BBC is reporting that 4 Russian civilians ( including 2 children ) were killed and 150 wounded by US made missiles launched by Ukraine.

Russia is claiming US specialists operated the missiles and that they were guided by US satellites.

Putin reportedly has promised a ' response '.



Time is running out. Reality is approaching day by day.


Joe Biden and his handlers are dragging the US into war with the country possessing the most hydrogen bombs on the entire planet.

Drop the foolish the Rambo / video game mentality and tell your representatives to stop this insanity.

---

Awww, little Vlady, whose troops rape, kidnap, and murder Ukrainian women and children, got his feelings hurt . . . so sad . . . .

Has he blamed us for the terrorist attacks yet?

---

You just can't be this stupid.

Can you not connect the dots and evaluate where this could lead ?



Just how long before the Russian people demand an attack on US targets ?


If the Mexican drug cartels were killing US civilians with Russian supplied and Russian guided missiles.....
just how long would the US president wait for a response ?

---

so he can launch missiles at apartment buildings, markets, malls, hospitals, kidnap 100k children, rape tens of thousands of women, but something the US didn't even do is the US's fault. You're an absolute idiot if you can't see this is not our fault.

---

Yes

It's a brilliant idea to supply missiles for another country to use in killing the civilians of a nuclear power with whom we are not at war with.

Yet


Just how long do you really believe Putin is going to tolerate US actions ? Another month or year ?

Just how many Russian civilians need to die before the political realities force Putin's hand ?

And try to focus ……..we are risking all this on behalf of a country the US has never considered vital to its strategic defense.

But now, somehow, someway Ukraine is worth billions of dollars ( we have to borrow to provide) and worth risking nuclear war ( that no one on this free message board is willing to fight )

---

there is no US "action" without Putin's own actions. It's his own damn fault.

---

A. It is not Putin's sole responsibility. Only a simpleton or John Wayne impersonator could fail to comprehend the political, economic and military actions of the United States in Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion.

B. MILLIONS of Ukrainians starved to death in the 1930's due to Stalin 's collectivization of Ukrainian farms.

The United States did nothing.

C. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were EXECUTED by Stalin in the 1940's following WW2 for 'collaborating' with the Germans.

The United States did nothing.

D. So doesn't it make you wonder why NOW is the United States providing BILLIONS of dollars we have to BORROW just to give it to Ukraine ? Why NOW is the United States willing to risk war with Russia by providing missiles and other weapons which are being employed on RUSSIAN CIVILIANS ?

E. And we are all comfortable and confident that these actions of the United States are well thought out and risks property evaluated by our president and Commander in Chief….JOE BIDEN ?

An old man in his 80's who is showing obvious signs of dementia on a weekly basis ?
An old man who can barely speak, freezes in place, and can not remember what he did even a week ago ?


But magically this guy can lead the US safely in a proxy war with the Russian people ?




Insanity

---

Missiles haven't been deployed on Russian civilians you idiot. The one you are fretting over was a missile that was hit by air defense missiles. ATACMS don't miss this badly....

Russian air defense reportedly shot down an ATACMS cluster munitions variant in occupied Sevastopol 2 days ago. The amount of submunitions hitting the water/beach and how they are dispersed (wider than usual) seems to confirm the missile was downed.

This beach is only 5km away… pic.twitter.com/Bf7dwFeqcj

— NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) June 25, 2024

---

You just might be the only poster dumber than Waco47. Four Russian civilians were killed as a result of a Ukrainian missile attack using American supplied, possibly American guided weapons.

An obvious escalation of a war brought on in part by the oldest president in American history. A president with obvious signs of dementia.

But for some unknown reason this same old man has your blind faith in his ability to safely fight a proxy war.

---

LOL. I have zero faith in some old man. I hate Biden more than 99% of the people in this country. You, on the other hand, have no idea what you're talking about regarding weaponry and what is going on here.

---

Suspect I have more first hand experience with military hardware than most.

If Russian civilian casualties continue to pile up due to the use of American supplied munitions…..Putin will have no real choice but to retaliate. The Russian people will demand it.

This should be obvious to anyone.

---

And what the Russian people demand or want doesn't matter in an autocracy like Putin's. That should be obvious.

---

This may be the most naive post on the thread, which after a year-plus is really saying something.

---

He successfully shapes, frames, and exploits sentiment the same way he has you hornswoggled Sam.

---

You should tell that to the Biden administration because they obviously believe otherwise. That's the only reason they would allow Ukraine to lob missiles into Russian territory, which serves no military purpose.

---

No military purpose? Ukraine is taking out Russian oil and gas infrastructure, air capabilities, naval assets, air defense, supply lines, and staging areas.

---

I mean there's no strategic purpose. It's bugs on the windshield of an oncoming truck.

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

The BBC is reporting that 4 Russian civilians ( including 2 children ) were killed and 150 wounded by US made missiles launched by Ukraine.

Russia is claiming US specialists operated the missiles and that they were guided by US satellites.

Putin reportedly has promised a ' response '.



Time is running out. Reality is approaching day by day.


Joe Biden and his handlers are dragging the US into war with the country possessing the most hydrogen bombs on the entire planet.

Drop the foolish the Rambo / video game mentality and tell your representatives to stop this insanity.

---

Awww, little Vlady, whose troops rape, kidnap, and murder Ukrainian women and children, got his feelings hurt . . . so sad . . . .

Has he blamed us for the terrorist attacks yet?

---

You just can't be this stupid.

Can you not connect the dots and evaluate where this could lead ?



Just how long before the Russian people demand an attack on US targets ?


If the Mexican drug cartels were killing US civilians with Russian supplied and Russian guided missiles.....
just how long would the US president wait for a response ?

---

so he can launch missiles at apartment buildings, markets, malls, hospitals, kidnap 100k children, rape tens of thousands of women, but something the US didn't even do is the US's fault. You're an absolute idiot if you can't see this is not our fault.

---

Yes

It's a brilliant idea to supply missiles for another country to use in killing the civilians of a nuclear power with whom we are not at war with.

Yet


Just how long do you really believe Putin is going to tolerate US actions ? Another month or year ?

Just how many Russian civilians need to die before the political realities force Putin's hand ?

And try to focus ……..we are risking all this on behalf of a country the US has never considered vital to its strategic defense.

But now, somehow, someway Ukraine is worth billions of dollars ( we have to borrow to provide) and worth risking nuclear war ( that no one on this free message board is willing to fight )

---

there is no US "action" without Putin's own actions. It's his own damn fault.

---

A. It is not Putin's sole responsibility. Only a simpleton or John Wayne impersonator could fail to comprehend the political, economic and military actions of the United States in Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion.

B. MILLIONS of Ukrainians starved to death in the 1930's due to Stalin 's collectivization of Ukrainian farms.

The United States did nothing.

C. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were EXECUTED by Stalin in the 1940's following WW2 for 'collaborating' with the Germans.

The United States did nothing.

D. So doesn't it make you wonder why NOW is the United States providing BILLIONS of dollars we have to BORROW just to give it to Ukraine ? Why NOW is the United States willing to risk war with Russia by providing missiles and other weapons which are being employed on RUSSIAN CIVILIANS ?

E. And we are all comfortable and confident that these actions of the United States are well thought out and risks property evaluated by our president and Commander in Chief….JOE BIDEN ?

An old man in his 80's who is showing obvious signs of dementia on a weekly basis ?
An old man who can barely speak, freezes in place, and can not remember what he did even a week ago ?


But magically this guy can lead the US safely in a proxy war with the Russian people ?




Insanity

---

Missiles haven't been deployed on Russian civilians you idiot. The one you are fretting over was a missile that was hit by air defense missiles. ATACMS don't miss this badly....

Russian air defense reportedly shot down an ATACMS cluster munitions variant in occupied Sevastopol 2 days ago. The amount of submunitions hitting the water/beach and how they are dispersed (wider than usual) seems to confirm the missile was downed.

This beach is only 5km away… pic.twitter.com/Bf7dwFeqcj

— NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) June 25, 2024

---

You just might be the only poster dumber than Waco47. Four Russian civilians were killed as a result of a Ukrainian missile attack using American supplied, possibly American guided weapons.

An obvious escalation of a war brought on in part by the oldest president in American history. A president with obvious signs of dementia.

But for some unknown reason this same old man has your blind faith in his ability to safely fight a proxy war.

---

LOL. I have zero faith in some old man. I hate Biden more than 99% of the people in this country. You, on the other hand, have no idea what you're talking about regarding weaponry and what is going on here.

---

Suspect I have more first hand experience with military hardware than most.

If Russian civilian casualties continue to pile up due to the use of American supplied munitions…..Putin will have no real choice but to retaliate. The Russian people will demand it.

This should be obvious to anyone.

---

And what the Russian people demand or want doesn't matter in an autocracy like Putin's. That should be obvious.

---

This may be the most naive post on the thread, which after a year-plus is really saying something.

---

He successfully shapes, frames, and exploits sentiment the same way he has you hornswoggled Sam.

---

You should tell that to the Biden administration because they obviously believe otherwise. That's the only reason they would allow Ukraine to lob missiles into Russian territory, which serves no military purpose.

---

Maybe we should have Ukraine tell Russia what they plan next, Putin is kept happy.

---

They frequently do, and that's only one sign of how amateurish they are. But you're missing the point. The question is what the US should do, not Ukraine.

---

The US? Supply them with weapons, not give them. But, supply them. If not cash, then for strategic access, similar we did with UK in WW2. We supplied Destroyers, they gave us base leases. Nothing is free...

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

The BBC is reporting that 4 Russian civilians ( including 2 children ) were killed and 150 wounded by US made missiles launched by Ukraine.

Russia is claiming US specialists operated the missiles and that they were guided by US satellites.

Putin reportedly has promised a ' response '.



Time is running out. Reality is approaching day by day.


Joe Biden and his handlers are dragging the US into war with the country possessing the most hydrogen bombs on the entire planet.

Drop the foolish the Rambo / video game mentality and tell your representatives to stop this insanity.

---

Awww, little Vlady, whose troops rape, kidnap, and murder Ukrainian women and children, got his feelings hurt . . . so sad . . . .

Has he blamed us for the terrorist attacks yet?

---

You just can't be this stupid.

Can you not connect the dots and evaluate where this could lead ?



Just how long before the Russian people demand an attack on US targets ?


If the Mexican drug cartels were killing US civilians with Russian supplied and Russian guided missiles.....
just how long would the US president wait for a response ?

---

so he can launch missiles at apartment buildings, markets, malls, hospitals, kidnap 100k children, rape tens of thousands of women, but something the US didn't even do is the US's fault. You're an absolute idiot if you can't see this is not our fault.

---

Yes

It's a brilliant idea to supply missiles for another country to use in killing the civilians of a nuclear power with whom we are not at war with.

Yet


Just how long do you really believe Putin is going to tolerate US actions ? Another month or year ?

Just how many Russian civilians need to die before the political realities force Putin's hand ?

And try to focus ……..we are risking all this on behalf of a country the US has never considered vital to its strategic defense.

But now, somehow, someway Ukraine is worth billions of dollars ( we have to borrow to provide) and worth risking nuclear war ( that no one on this free message board is willing to fight )

---

there is no US "action" without Putin's own actions. It's his own damn fault.

---

A. It is not Putin's sole responsibility. Only a simpleton or John Wayne impersonator could fail to comprehend the political, economic and military actions of the United States in Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion.

B. MILLIONS of Ukrainians starved to death in the 1930's due to Stalin 's collectivization of Ukrainian farms.

The United States did nothing.

C. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were EXECUTED by Stalin in the 1940's following WW2 for 'collaborating' with the Germans.

The United States did nothing.

D. So doesn't it make you wonder why NOW is the United States providing BILLIONS of dollars we have to BORROW just to give it to Ukraine ? Why NOW is the United States willing to risk war with Russia by providing missiles and other weapons which are being employed on RUSSIAN CIVILIANS ?

E. And we are all comfortable and confident that these actions of the United States are well thought out and risks property evaluated by our president and Commander in Chief….JOE BIDEN ?

An old man in his 80's who is showing obvious signs of dementia on a weekly basis ?
An old man who can barely speak, freezes in place, and can not remember what he did even a week ago ?


But magically this guy can lead the US safely in a proxy war with the Russian people ?




Insanity

---

Missiles haven't been deployed on Russian civilians you idiot. The one you are fretting over was a missile that was hit by air defense missiles. ATACMS don't miss this badly....

Russian air defense reportedly shot down an ATACMS cluster munitions variant in occupied Sevastopol 2 days ago. The amount of submunitions hitting the water/beach and how they are dispersed (wider than usual) seems to confirm the missile was downed.

This beach is only 5km away… pic.twitter.com/Bf7dwFeqcj

— NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) June 25, 2024

---

You just might be the only poster dumber than Waco47. Four Russian civilians were killed as a result of a Ukrainian missile attack using American supplied, possibly American guided weapons.

An obvious escalation of a war brought on in part by the oldest president in American history. A president with obvious signs of dementia.

But for some unknown reason this same old man has your blind faith in his ability to safely fight a proxy war.

---

LOL. I have zero faith in some old man. I hate Biden more than 99% of the people in this country. You, on the other hand, have no idea what you're talking about regarding weaponry and what is going on here.

---

Suspect I have more first hand experience with military hardware than most.

If Russian civilian casualties continue to pile up due to the use of American supplied munitions…..Putin will have no real choice but to retaliate. The Russian people will demand it.

This should be obvious to anyone.

---

And what the Russian people demand or want doesn't matter in an autocracy like Putin's. That should be obvious.

---

This may be the most naive post on the thread, which after a year-plus is really saying something.

---

He successfully shapes, frames, and exploits sentiment the same way he has you hornswoggled Sam.

---

You should tell that to the Biden administration because they obviously believe otherwise. That's the only reason they would allow Ukraine to lob missiles into Russian territory, which serves no military purpose.

---

Maybe we should have Ukraine tell Russia what they plan next, Putin is kept happy.

---

They frequently do, and that's only one sign of how amateurish they are. But you're missing the point. The question is what the US should do, not Ukraine.

---

The US? Supply them with weapons, not give them. But, supply them. If not cash, then for strategic access, similar we did with UK in WW2. We supplied Destroyers, they gave us base leases. Nothing is free...

---

We've been supplying them for two years. If it had worked we wouldn't be talking about attacking Russia.

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

The BBC is reporting that 4 Russian civilians ( including 2 children ) were killed and 150 wounded by US made missiles launched by Ukraine.

Russia is claiming US specialists operated the missiles and that they were guided by US satellites.

Putin reportedly has promised a ' response '.



Time is running out. Reality is approaching day by day.


Joe Biden and his handlers are dragging the US into war with the country possessing the most hydrogen bombs on the entire planet.

Drop the foolish the Rambo / video game mentality and tell your representatives to stop this insanity.

---

Awww, little Vlady, whose troops rape, kidnap, and murder Ukrainian women and children, got his feelings hurt . . . so sad . . . .

Has he blamed us for the terrorist attacks yet?

---

You just can't be this stupid.

Can you not connect the dots and evaluate where this could lead ?



Just how long before the Russian people demand an attack on US targets ?


If the Mexican drug cartels were killing US civilians with Russian supplied and Russian guided missiles.....
just how long would the US president wait for a response ?

---

so he can launch missiles at apartment buildings, markets, malls, hospitals, kidnap 100k children, rape tens of thousands of women, but something the US didn't even do is the US's fault. You're an absolute idiot if you can't see this is not our fault.

---

Yes

It's a brilliant idea to supply missiles for another country to use in killing the civilians of a nuclear power with whom we are not at war with.

Yet


Just how long do you really believe Putin is going to tolerate US actions ? Another month or year ?

Just how many Russian civilians need to die before the political realities force Putin's hand ?

And try to focus ……..we are risking all this on behalf of a country the US has never considered vital to its strategic defense.

But now, somehow, someway Ukraine is worth billions of dollars ( we have to borrow to provide) and worth risking nuclear war ( that no one on this free message board is willing to fight )

---

there is no US "action" without Putin's own actions. It's his own damn fault.

---

A. It is not Putin's sole responsibility. Only a simpleton or John Wayne impersonator could fail to comprehend the political, economic and military actions of the United States in Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion.

B. MILLIONS of Ukrainians starved to death in the 1930's due to Stalin 's collectivization of Ukrainian farms.

The United States did nothing.

C. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were EXECUTED by Stalin in the 1940's following WW2 for 'collaborating' with the Germans.

The United States did nothing.

D. So doesn't it make you wonder why NOW is the United States providing BILLIONS of dollars we have to BORROW just to give it to Ukraine ? Why NOW is the United States willing to risk war with Russia by providing missiles and other weapons which are being employed on RUSSIAN CIVILIANS ?

E. And we are all comfortable and confident that these actions of the United States are well thought out and risks property evaluated by our president and Commander in Chief….JOE BIDEN ?

An old man in his 80's who is showing obvious signs of dementia on a weekly basis ?
An old man who can barely speak, freezes in place, and can not remember what he did even a week ago ?


But magically this guy can lead the US safely in a proxy war with the Russian people ?




Insanity

---

Missiles haven't been deployed on Russian civilians you idiot. The one you are fretting over was a missile that was hit by air defense missiles. ATACMS don't miss this badly....

Russian air defense reportedly shot down an ATACMS cluster munitions variant in occupied Sevastopol 2 days ago. The amount of submunitions hitting the water/beach and how they are dispersed (wider than usual) seems to confirm the missile was downed.

This beach is only 5km away… pic.twitter.com/Bf7dwFeqcj

— NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) June 25, 2024

---

You just might be the only poster dumber than Waco47. Four Russian civilians were killed as a result of a Ukrainian missile attack using American supplied, possibly American guided weapons.

An obvious escalation of a war brought on in part by the oldest president in American history. A president with obvious signs of dementia.

But for some unknown reason this same old man has your blind faith in his ability to safely fight a proxy war.

---

LOL. I have zero faith in some old man. I hate Biden more than 99% of the people in this country. You, on the other hand, have no idea what you're talking about regarding weaponry and what is going on here.

---

Suspect I have more first hand experience with military hardware than most.

If Russian civilian casualties continue to pile up due to the use of American supplied munitions…..Putin will have no real choice but to retaliate. The Russian people will demand it.

This should be obvious to anyone.

---

And what the Russian people demand or want doesn't matter in an autocracy like Putin's. That should be obvious.

---

This may be the most naive post on the thread, which after a year-plus is really saying something.

---

He successfully shapes, frames, and exploits sentiment the same way he has you hornswoggled Sam.

---

You should tell that to the Biden administration because they obviously believe otherwise. That's the only reason they would allow Ukraine to lob missiles into Russian territory, which serves no military purpose.

---

No military purpose? Ukraine is taking out Russian oil and gas infrastructure, air capabilities, naval assets, air defense, supply lines, and staging areas.

---

I mean there's no strategic purpose. It's bugs on the windshield of an oncoming truck.

---

LMAO. No.

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

The BBC is reporting that 4 Russian civilians ( including 2 children ) were killed and 150 wounded by US made missiles launched by Ukraine.

Russia is claiming US specialists operated the missiles and that they were guided by US satellites.

Putin reportedly has promised a ' response '.



Time is running out. Reality is approaching day by day.


Joe Biden and his handlers are dragging the US into war with the country possessing the most hydrogen bombs on the entire planet.

Drop the foolish the Rambo / video game mentality and tell your representatives to stop this insanity.

---

Awww, little Vlady, whose troops rape, kidnap, and murder Ukrainian women and children, got his feelings hurt . . . so sad . . . .

Has he blamed us for the terrorist attacks yet?

---

You just can't be this stupid.

Can you not connect the dots and evaluate where this could lead ?



Just how long before the Russian people demand an attack on US targets ?


If the Mexican drug cartels were killing US civilians with Russian supplied and Russian guided missiles.....
just how long would the US president wait for a response ?

---

so he can launch missiles at apartment buildings, markets, malls, hospitals, kidnap 100k children, rape tens of thousands of women, but something the US didn't even do is the US's fault. You're an absolute idiot if you can't see this is not our fault.

---

Yes

It's a brilliant idea to supply missiles for another country to use in killing the civilians of a nuclear power with whom we are not at war with.

Yet


Just how long do you really believe Putin is going to tolerate US actions ? Another month or year ?

Just how many Russian civilians need to die before the political realities force Putin's hand ?

And try to focus ……..we are risking all this on behalf of a country the US has never considered vital to its strategic defense.

But now, somehow, someway Ukraine is worth billions of dollars ( we have to borrow to provide) and worth risking nuclear war ( that no one on this free message board is willing to fight )

---

there is no US "action" without Putin's own actions. It's his own damn fault.

---

A. It is not Putin's sole responsibility. Only a simpleton or John Wayne impersonator could fail to comprehend the political, economic and military actions of the United States in Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion.

B. MILLIONS of Ukrainians starved to death in the 1930's due to Stalin 's collectivization of Ukrainian farms.

The United States did nothing.

C. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were EXECUTED by Stalin in the 1940's following WW2 for 'collaborating' with the Germans.

The United States did nothing.

D. So doesn't it make you wonder why NOW is the United States providing BILLIONS of dollars we have to BORROW just to give it to Ukraine ? Why NOW is the United States willing to risk war with Russia by providing missiles and other weapons which are being employed on RUSSIAN CIVILIANS ?

E. And we are all comfortable and confident that these actions of the United States are well thought out and risks property evaluated by our president and Commander in Chief….JOE BIDEN ?

An old man in his 80's who is showing obvious signs of dementia on a weekly basis ?
An old man who can barely speak, freezes in place, and can not remember what he did even a week ago ?


But magically this guy can lead the US safely in a proxy war with the Russian people ?




Insanity

---

Missiles haven't been deployed on Russian civilians you idiot. The one you are fretting over was a missile that was hit by air defense missiles. ATACMS don't miss this badly....

Russian air defense reportedly shot down an ATACMS cluster munitions variant in occupied Sevastopol 2 days ago. The amount of submunitions hitting the water/beach and how they are dispersed (wider than usual) seems to confirm the missile was downed.

This beach is only 5km away… pic.twitter.com/Bf7dwFeqcj

— NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) June 25, 2024

---

You just might be the only poster dumber than Waco47. Four Russian civilians were killed as a result of a Ukrainian missile attack using American supplied, possibly American guided weapons.

An obvious escalation of a war brought on in part by the oldest president in American history. A president with obvious signs of dementia.

But for some unknown reason this same old man has your blind faith in his ability to safely fight a proxy war.

---

LOL. I have zero faith in some old man. I hate Biden more than 99% of the people in this country. You, on the other hand, have no idea what you're talking about regarding weaponry and what is going on here.

---

Suspect I have more first hand experience with military hardware than most.

If Russian civilian casualties continue to pile up due to the use of American supplied munitions…..Putin will have no real choice but to retaliate. The Russian people will demand it.

This should be obvious to anyone.

---

And what the Russian people demand or want doesn't matter in an autocracy like Putin's. That should be obvious.

---

This may be the most naive post on the thread, which after a year-plus is really saying something.

---

He successfully shapes, frames, and exploits sentiment the same way he has you hornswoggled Sam.

---

You should tell that to the Biden administration because they obviously believe otherwise. That's the only reason they would allow Ukraine to lob missiles into Russian territory, which serves no military purpose.

---

Maybe we should have Ukraine tell Russia what they plan next, Putin is kept happy.

---

They frequently do, and that's only one sign of how amateurish they are. But you're missing the point. The question is what the US should do, not Ukraine.

---

The US? Supply them with weapons, not give them. But, supply them. If not cash, then for strategic access, similar we did with UK in WW2. We supplied Destroyers, they gave us base leases. Nothing is free...

---

We've been supplying them for two years. If it had worked we wouldn't be talking about attacking Russia.

---

So stop? That is game over for Ukraine. Putin than moves on to the Baltics.

You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?

What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?

You may find you don't like the answer.

Sam Lowry said:

---

You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?

What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?

You may find you don't like the answer.

---

Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.

That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?

What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?

You may find you don't like the answer.

---

Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.

That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.

---

Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?

What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?

You may find you don't like the answer.

---

Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.

That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.

---

Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.

---

Keep going obviously.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?

What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?

You may find you don't like the answer.

---

Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.

That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.

---

Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.

---

Keep going obviously.

---

What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?

"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?

What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?

You may find you don't like the answer.

---

Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.

That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.

---

Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.

---

Keep going obviously.

---

What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?

"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.

---

So you admit that Putin doesn't have one either. Just keep sending the Dagestanis, soon the Norks, the Siberians, the Chechens, etc. into the meatgrinder!!! They won't get mad when those regions have lost 30-40% of their able bodied young men. So long as Kirill and Vlady's friends' white kids in St Pete don' get killed, and they/you can keep blaming the US rather than themselves, all is well!!