Why Are We in Ukraine?

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whiterock
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Realitybites said:

50% of the UAF incursion force has been destroyed. I would imagine that the Battle of the Bulge 2.0 will be over by the end of the week.
(Ahem.) Not likely. Units become combat ineffective at 10% casualties. Casualty rates do escalate for forces in disorderly retreat. So the only way that 50% number is plausible is if Ukraine is in headlong retreat in the face of overwhelming Russian force. Given the reporting we are seeing, that is not likely what's happening on the front lines.

There are a number of explanations for what Ukraine is doing. I mentioned one already - indirect approach - take what the enemy will give you and force him to respond. He will have to respond by shuffling forces away from somewhere else on the line, or by moving up reserves. Either one is good. Moving them from other fronts relieves pressure and/or creates opportunities for you to attack; moving up untrained reserves means you just kill/capture more troops more quickly, as they are not well motivated/trained forces. And then there is an issue of choosing battlefields - Why keep feeding your forces into a battle space Russia has successfully shaped into the kind of war it likes to fight? Create a problem elsewhere to which Russia must respond in ways that create the kind of battle you do better than them (maneuver warfare).

Then there is the issue of seizing square miles to trade in future negotiations. You see that hinted at in a post above. Ukraine is indeed digging in, preparing positions, telling locals there will be a referendum. What a great way to undermine the legitimacy of the Russian annexations of Crimea and Donbas. Go seize and annex some of Russia. Two can play at that game.

Same for POWs. They have value in peace negotiations. You can trade some for stuff. And in the calculus of attrition warfare, a captured soldier is the same as a KIA as far as your enemy is concerned- you have removed assets from his portfolio. Ukraine has to (remove from the equation) about 250k Russian soldiers a year to stay ahead of Russian mobilization rates. They've been well above that rate most of the year.

There is also the issue of morale, at home and abroad. It's good for your troops and good for public support and good for allies to see that you are still able to succeed on the battlefield, that continued support is not wasted effort.

And there are some strategic benefits. The gas compressor stations. The nuclear plant is now within range of simple weapons systems. The rail line supplying Belgorad, the logistics center for the Russian incursion toward Kharkov....runs thru Kursk. Ukraine at minimum now has the entire line exposed to arty attack and may well have actually seized some portion of it.

And there is a symbolic strategic aim, as well. The Tet Offensive was a crushing defeat for the Viet Cong.
They. Got. Smoked. They lost a decade of carefully built insurgent infrastructure. Within a few weeks of the battle, embassy staff could drive almost anywhere they wanted in South Vietnam without risk, go into areas which had been off-limits for years. Butt the American public, thanks in no small part to media reporting of the battle, took an entirely different view. It saw the pitched battles in Hue and elsewhere as a sign that the US was not winning the war. The American people decided the cost to win would not be worth it. Tet ended up not being the beginning of the end of the Viet Cong, but the beginning of the end of American support for South Vietnam. It's quite a bit early to suggest that the Ukraine's Kursk offensive will prove to be a Tet moment for the Russian people . But the further on this goes, the more that dynamic plays to Ukraine's benefit. The longer it goes on, the more pressure Putin faces, from within his regime and without.



ron.reagan
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Redbrickbear said:

ron.reagan said:

This really just highlights the absurdness of thinking Russia has actual red lines or an actual nuclear doctrine. The mafia will not risk their reign. I'm sure they already wish they could find a way out


So they won't be invading Poland anytime soon?

I was told that all of Central and Western Europe were under threat….

(The regime in Moscow has had to sell its natural resources at bargain basement prices to China and India to stay afloat, it can't stop a small neighbor from invading its home turf- a neighbor it had been waging war on for two years, it nearly let a private military company of ex-cons and chronic alcoholics take its capital a few months ago, and it had to fight 2 long costly wars to keep a small mountain Islamic country inside the Russian Federation-and it only "won" by basically ceding over autonomy to the local fundamentalist Muslims)
In your small brain do you ever consider a country could be a threat while not being able to win a war? I recommend looking at the Ukraine/Russia situation if you'd like to see an example.
trey3216
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Realitybites said:

50% of the UAF incursion force has been destroyed. I would imagine that the Battle of the Bulge 2.0 will be over by the end of the week.
Methinks you have this one really, really wrong. From Russian state tv, it's likely even worse than the case I've already presented....for Russia that is...

Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
Redbrickbear
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ron.reagan said:

Redbrickbear said:

ron.reagan said:

This really just highlights the absurdness of thinking Russia has actual red lines or an actual nuclear doctrine. The mafia will not risk their reign. I'm sure they already wish they could find a way out


So they won't be invading Poland anytime soon?

I was told that all of Central and Western Europe were under threat….

(The regime in Moscow has had to sell its natural resources at bargain basement prices to China and India to stay afloat, it can't stop a small neighbor from invading its home turf- a neighbor it had been waging war on for two years, it nearly let a private military company of ex-cons and chronic alcoholics take its capital a few months ago, and it had to fight 2 long costly wars to keep a small mountain Islamic country inside the Russian Federation-and it only "won" by basically ceding over autonomy to the local fundamentalist Muslims)
In your small brain do you ever consider a country could be a threat while not being able to win a war? I recommend looking at the Ukraine/Russia situation if you'd like to see an example.

Keeping threats in proportion is the key.

North Korea is a threat...acting like its going to conquer the world would be hysterical nonsense (or really conquer anyone at all)

The threat Russia poses as a military has been greatly overstated (often by posters on this forum) and certainly by our Foreign Policy blob in DC and our mass entertainment as News system.

ron.reagan
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Redbrickbear said:

ron.reagan said:

Redbrickbear said:

ron.reagan said:

This really just highlights the absurdness of thinking Russia has actual red lines or an actual nuclear doctrine. The mafia will not risk their reign. I'm sure they already wish they could find a way out


So they won't be invading Poland anytime soon?

I was told that all of Central and Western Europe were under threat….

(The regime in Moscow has had to sell its natural resources at bargain basement prices to China and India to stay afloat, it can't stop a small neighbor from invading its home turf- a neighbor it had been waging war on for two years, it nearly let a private military company of ex-cons and chronic alcoholics take its capital a few months ago, and it had to fight 2 long costly wars to keep a small mountain Islamic country inside the Russian Federation-and it only "won" by basically ceding over autonomy to the local fundamentalist Muslims)
In your small brain do you ever consider a country could be a threat while not being able to win a war? I recommend looking at the Ukraine/Russia situation if you'd like to see an example.

Keeping threats in proportion is the key.

North Korea is a threat...acting like its going to conquer the world would be hysterical nonsense (or really conquer anyone at all)

The threat Russia poses as a military has been greatly overstated (often by posters on this forum) and certainly by our Foreign Policy blob in DC and our mass entertainment as News system.


Jin Dynasty had the same opinion of the Mongols
boognish_bear
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Sam Lowry
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It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.
sombear
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Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.
Perhaps your best ever. Well done.
KaiBear
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Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.


Everyone needs to keep in mind…..

It's the young men on both sides fighting and dying because of stupid geopolitical choices by old men .

Trump in 2024.

sombear
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KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.


Everyone needs to keep in mind…..

It's the young men on both sides fighting and dying because of stupid geopolitical choices by old men .

Trump in 2024.


Trump ain't stopping funding
KaiBear
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sombear said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.


Everyone needs to keep in mind…..

It's the young men on both sides fighting and dying because of stupid geopolitical choices by old men .

Trump in 2024.


Trump ain't stopping funding


The war will end within 10 months of the installation of a Trump administration.

His enemies will say he had nothing to do with it.
sombear
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KaiBear said:

sombear said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.


Everyone needs to keep in mind…..

It's the young men on both sides fighting and dying because of stupid geopolitical choices by old men .

Trump in 2024.


Trump ain't stopping funding


The war will end within 10 months of the installation of a Trump administration.

His enemies will say he had nothing to do with it.


I hope you're right, but if true, I fear it will be because he risks major escalation. He flat will not stop funding.
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.
I would bet you were pulling for Ivan Drago in Rocky IV. You seem to love you some Vlad Putin! Your man crush is actually kinda sweet.
"Never underestimate Joe's ability to **** things up!"

-- Barack Obama
sombear
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J.R.
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KaiBear said:

sombear said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.


Everyone needs to keep in mind…..

It's the young men on both sides fighting and dying because of stupid geopolitical choices by old men .

Trump in 2024.


Trump ain't stopping funding


The war will end within 10 months of the installation of a Trump administration.

His enemies will say he had nothing to do with it.
Trump doesn't know chit. I'm very doubtful he wins . I'm not voting for either.
KaiBear
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J.R. said:

KaiBear said:

sombear said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.


Everyone needs to keep in mind…..

It's the young men on both sides fighting and dying because of stupid geopolitical choices by old men .

Trump in 2024.


Trump ain't stopping funding


The war will end within 10 months of the installation of a Trump administration.

His enemies will say he had nothing to do with it.
Trump doesn't know chit. I'm very doubtful he wins . I'm not voting for either.


Trump may not know 'chit'.

But compared to Harris, Trump is a bloody genius.
FLBear5630
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J.R. said:

KaiBear said:

sombear said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.


Everyone needs to keep in mind…..

It's the young men on both sides fighting and dying because of stupid geopolitical choices by old men .

Trump in 2024.


Trump ain't stopping funding


The war will end within 10 months of the installation of a Trump administration.

His enemies will say he had nothing to do with it.
Trump doesn't know chit. I'm very doubtful he wins . I'm not voting for either.


Trump is not winning. The Dems and Media are recreating the Biden/Harris years and Trump is inexact enough to be "fact-checked" to political death.

Look at the Musk conversation. Within 12 hours they identified 60 items he was supposedly lying about (even though he approximated a lot of them) "fact checked" them, wrote responses and got it up on CNN. 60... They are committing resources to do that for one conversation. I have yet to see a Harris fact check.

They are not going to stuff the ballot box, they are going to recreate Harris and discredit Trump.
whiterock
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sombear said:

KaiBear said:

sombear said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.


Everyone needs to keep in mind…..

It's the young men on both sides fighting and dying because of stupid geopolitical choices by old men .

Trump in 2024.


Trump ain't stopping funding


The war will end within 10 months of the installation of a Trump administration.

His enemies will say he had nothing to do with it.


I hope you're right, but if true, I fear it will be because he risks major escalation. He flat will not stop funding.

correct. he is not going to open his administration with a loss. this is a guy who talks about winning so much we'll get tired of winnign.
ron.reagan
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KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.


Everyone needs to keep in mind…..

It's the young men on both sides fighting and dying because of stupid geopolitical choices by old men .

Trump in 2024.


Everyone needs to remember that your right to protect your family is a geopolitical issue? Interesting
whiterock
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Uke still advancing.

Uke controls the train station in Sudzha, which gives them real time intel on train movements in Russia. Commo & signals within a train system are not encrypted....... The only way Russia can deny this information to Uke is to deny electrical service to a large region, which of course would also interdict their own ability to use the rail system. This makes vulnerable every resupply train within ATACMS range. This is a serious threat to supply lines for the Russian front at Belgorad. If Russia does not stop Uke soon, it will have to call off offensive action in the Belgorad sector. (likely the intent of the Uke offensive......)

FLBear5630
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whiterock said:

Uke still advancing.

Uke controls the train station in Sudzha, which gives them real time intel on train movements in Russia. Commo & signals within a train system are not encrypted....... The only way Russia can deny this information to Uke is to deny electrical service to a large region, which of course would also interdict their own ability to use the rail system. This makes vulnerable every resupply train within ATACMS range. This is a serious threat to supply lines for the Russian front at Belgorad. If Russia does not stop Uke soon, it will have to call off offensive action in the Belgorad sector. (likely the intent of the Uke offensive......)


Uke must be finding resupply to be easier than expected. You do not extend your lines without the ability to maintain. Regardless of what bloggers say, wonder what is going on in Kursk. Russia is now in danger, this doesn't appear to be a 1 to 2 mile incursion.
whiterock
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FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

Uke still advancing.

Uke controls the train station in Sudzha, which gives them real time intel on train movements in Russia. Commo & signals within a train system are not encrypted....... The only way Russia can deny this information to Uke is to deny electrical service to a large region, which of course would also interdict their own ability to use the rail system. This makes vulnerable every resupply train within ATACMS range. This is a serious threat to supply lines for the Russian front at Belgorad. If Russia does not stop Uke soon, it will have to call off offensive action in the Belgorad sector. (likely the intent of the Uke offensive......)


Uke must be finding resupply to be easier than expected. You do not extend your lines without the ability to maintain. Regardless of what bloggers say, wonder what is going on in Kursk. Russia is now in danger, this doesn't appear to be a 1 to 2 mile incursion.
keep in mind, the identified areas of Uke control on that map are what can be confirmed as under control, not the furthest extent of Uke advance, not where the front line battles are occurring. Other available maps show an area of Uke operational extent more than twice as large as the ISW map.
whiterock
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note the language...."defense of Kursk".....
KaiBear
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ron.reagan said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.


Everyone needs to keep in mind…..

It's the young men on both sides fighting and dying because of stupid geopolitical choices by old men .

Trump in 2024.


Everyone needs to remember that your right to protect your family is a geopolitical issue? Interesting


Your consistent demonstrations of a complete inability to comprehend the relationship between cause and affect;

makes me wonder how you even manage to feed yourself.

Kamala Harris deserves your vote.
Redbrickbear
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whiterock said:

note the language...."defense of Kursk".....


The modern leadership of Russia is as obsessed with comparing everything to War War II (the great Patriotic War) as is the modern leadership of the USA and Britain

Its just nazi nazi nazi all the way down.

Be it Moscow comparing their enemies in Kyiv with nazis or the DC political class calling fly over American conservatives nazis....its all just cosplaying WWII forever.

Its like history is stuck forever in 1945

Redbrickbear
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KaiBear said:

sombear said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.


Everyone needs to keep in mind…..

It's the young men on both sides fighting and dying because of stupid geopolitical choices by old men .

Trump in 2024.


Trump ain't stopping funding


The war will end within 10 months of the installation of a Trump administration.

His enemies will say he had nothing to do with it.

Depends on how the war ends....

If the war ends with minor territorial losses for Ukraine but the State endures and goes on to join the EU (say Kyiv formally recognizes Donbas and Crimea as part of the Russian Federation) then Trump will get no credit because most Westerners have no problem with that outcome. And the Media-Entertainment complex will have a hard time spinning a negotiated end to the war as "Trump bad...more war good"

If the war ends with some kind of collapse of the government in Kyiv and the absorption of Ukraine into Russia (the worst case scenario) then Trump will get all the blame from the Media-Entertainment complex.
ron.reagan
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KaiBear said:

ron.reagan said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

It looks like the Russians are well on their way to mopping up after this latest Ukrainian boondoggle in Kursk. Meanwhile they've captured Ivanivka and almost all of Niu York, entered the central areas of Chasiv Yar and Toretsk, reached the suburbs of Pokrovsk, and put Vuhledar under imminent threat of being cut off and surrounded. Not a bad week for an army supposedly caught by a surprise attack.


Everyone needs to keep in mind…..

It's the young men on both sides fighting and dying because of stupid geopolitical choices by old men .

Trump in 2024.


Everyone needs to remember that your right to protect your family is a geopolitical issue? Interesting


Your consistent demonstrations of a complete inability to comprehend the relationship between cause and affect;

makes me wonder how you even manage to feed yourself.

Kamala Harris deserves your vote.
typical aggy
trey3216
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Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
trey3216
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Oh….and this!!!




I noticed that Sample Jack has been kind of quiet the last few days.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
william
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* that ETF includes BA - so it would be higher w/o BA- BUT BA was able to able to fleece us out of $5.4 B for a DOA space transport system.

Hope those astronauts make it home one decade.

Luckily Elon Musk & co. will bring them back home.

- KKM



pro ecclesia, pro javelina
ron.reagan
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trey3216 said:


Belarus sending both of their muskets
whiterock
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trey3216 said:

Oh….and this!!!




I noticed that Sample Jack has been kind of quiet the last few days.

There are unconfirmed reports that Ukes are using loudspeakers attached to drones to instruct Russian troops how to surrender. Units in Kursk apparently are overwhelmingly untrained conscripts….very low quality.

Sam Lowry
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trey3216 said:

Oh….and this!!!




I noticed that Sample Jack has been kind of quiet the last few days.
There's a lot of fog around this battle and not much verifiable information. That's the reason you're talking more and I'm talking less.
whiterock
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not directly related to current events, but an interesting read on warfare innovations in the Russo-Ukraine War. Entire thread is informative, but the long paper in the 4th post is the real meat.

Sam Lowry
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The attack on the Kursk region may be the beginning of the military end of Ukraine
Aug 10, 2024
Milena Bogdanova

Attack by the armed forces of Ukraine in the region of Kursk could be the beginning of the military end for Kiev, which could lead to greater territorial losses for Ukraine. This opinion was expressed by the military expert of the European Council on Foreign Relations, Gustav Gressel, in an interview with Der Spiegel magazine.

If Ukraine seeks to hold territory for a few months, it will lead to military costs that can hardly be covered. The expansion of the front line is profitable above all for Russia. "It has more weapons, ammunition and people that it can use on a wider front," says the Austrian specialist. According to him, the effect of surprise threatens to quickly turn against Ukraine.

The expert noted that Moscow could send additional forces to the Kursk region, which would first contain the attacks of the Ukrainian armed forces, and then tire them out. He pointed out that in the meantime, Kiev is exhausting its resources in Donbas, and if the front collapses, then Ukraine will have to one way or another leave the territories in the Kursk region and transfer them again to the east. "There, this could lead to greater territorial losses," noted Gressel.

https://fakti.bg/en/world/903779-the-attack-on-the-kursk-region-may-be-the-beginning-of-the-military-end-of-ukraine
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