sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

---

Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

---

Humans have been changing borders forever

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever

---

Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.

---

Maybe

Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world

I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either

And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment

Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

---

Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

---

Humans have been changing borders forever.

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever.
Yeah, Ukrainians really do dislike the Russian boot on their neck right now.

---

What an incredibly ahistorical take, wild-eyed foreign policy idealism from someone who idolizes realist policy platitudes.

People do not change borders. Regimes do. After wars. Wars that more often than not were started over a unilateral desire of a state to change its borders at the expense of another state.
LIKE UKRAINE.

One of the principles of the modern international order is "the borders are the borders." The international community reflexively rejects unilateral declarations of annexation. As it did in 2014 and 2022.

You are quite disconnected from reality here. Not one nation is going to ever agree to decadal referendums of local jurisdictions to see which larger polity they would like to join.

I mean, really.....

sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Have anyone who was a resident pre-2014 vote

I'm for it

And I'm for a 3rd party like the UN running the election.

I doubt you want a real vote…because the majority would almost certainly vote against union with Kyiv

---

Let's just say that was possible (which it is not) I would bet every dollar I had they would strongly reject Russia. You think 1/3 or more ethnic Ukrainians would vote for Russia despite Russia's butchery? Heck, 95% or more of ethnic Ukrainians voted against Russia in 1991 when Russia was rolling out the red carpet. And polls through pre-2014 invasion showed similar sentiment. Heck, ethnic Russian did. It want to rejoin Russia. But now they've somehow seen the Putin light?

It's only an odd subgroup of Americans who actually would choose Putin. Virtually everyone else sees him for what he really is - an evil, morally bankrupt, murderous, thug, dictator, tyrant, spy, narcissist, Soviet Empire daydreamer.

---

Polls consistently showed support for good relations with both Russia and the West. Not all-or-nothing alignment, as we insisted upon.

It's worth asking why the US itself supported Ukrainian neutrality in 1991. Today we talk as if that was a gross violation of sovereignty, but no one said so at the time. There are two possible reasons, neither of which is very good for your argument. One is that we lied. The other is that we recognized Russia's legitimate interests in Ukraine. So again, what changed?

A lot changed in 2014. Until then the people of the Donbas had relatively fair representation in Kiev. Maidan was, at best, a revolt by a small number of Western Ukrainians who fiercely opposed not only Russia but also Russian language, culture, and religion in Ukraine. At worst it was a coup orchestrated by the US. Either way, Crimea and the Donbas wanted no part of it. They and the rest of the country gave Zelensky a mandate to implement the Minsk Agreement, and Kiev betrayed them yet again. Meanwhile thousands were dying in a civil war against whom...Putin? No, they were being killed by Ukrainian forces with Western backing. That's the reality today, not 30 years ago.

And just to emphasize the most important point--even if everything you said were true, it would not remotely justify our risk of getting into war with Russia. The political shape of Ukraine is famously variable, so much so that there are ancient jokes about it. Life has always gone on. We should keep it that way.

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I agree with more than you might think, but it really takes the Russian perspective on the issues. I fully realize there are multiple sides to these stories and that nobody has completely clean hands. I've never said to the contrary. However based on my study and knowledge of Russia and the region, my travel and work there, and countless hours discussing these issues with my Russian in-laws and Serb family, I believe Russia is by far most responsible for the carnage and instability and has always planned all of it.

I further believe Ukraine's cause is just, that we and our allies should support them, and that we are not risking war with Russia.

---

I'm curious about your last statement. How do you see this as not risking war?

---

Russia and the U.S. have supported each other's adversaries forever. We were supplying Ukraine before the invasion. Putin knew we and the Euros would help Ukraine post-invasion. Putin's only surprised (pleasantly so) that we didn't do more.

Putin wants no part of a war with the U.S. and we don't want one with him. Less than zero chance.

---

.....less than zero chance because both sides understand that Nato support for Ukraine, or Russian support for Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, etc....is not grounds for war. In fact, both sides expect the other to support proxies to oppose the foreign policy agenda of the other. Russia will actually keep pushing with the bayonet until it meets resistance. They did popularize the idiom, ya know...

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

---

Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

---

Humans have been changing borders forever

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever

---

Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.

---

Maybe

Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world

I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either

And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment

Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find

---

No, it's more basic. Every country has its issues, but there is still a free world and then everyone else. Russia is and aligns with the everyone else. It's not a marketing issue. The world knows it, and they don't want any part of Russia.

Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.

Free people are able to push back against their government's overreach. Russians do not have that luxury.

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

---

Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

---

Humans have been changing borders forever

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever

---

Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.

---

Maybe

Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world

I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either

And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment

Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find

---

Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.

---

Non sequitur

Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America

In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.

Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.

Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.

Redbrickbear said:

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Western North Carolinians get to tent camp outside their houses for the winter https://t.co/ncuBCWBJjR

— Oilfield Rando (@Oilfield_Rando) December 2, 2024

---

Posters here want trillions spent on this war and simultaneously haven't said a damn thing about the lack of putting American's first.

Its conditional to me: you don't get your war money until you put American's first...its their tax dollars.

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

---

Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

---

Humans have been changing borders forever.

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever.
Yeah, Ukrainians really do dislike the Russian boot on their neck right now.

---

What an incredibly ahistorical take, wild-eyed foreign policy idealism from someone who idolizes realist policy platitudes.

People do not change borders. Regimes do. After wars.

---

People did not migrate and change borders before States/Regimes came into being?

Borders don't change without wars?

Who is being ahistorical now....