Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever.
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever. Yeah, Ukrainians really do dislike the Russian boot on their neck right now.
What an incredibly ahistorical take, wild-eyed foreign policy idealism from someone who idolizes realist policy platitudes.
People do not change borders. Regimes do. After wars. Wars that more often than not were started over a unilateral desire of a state to change its borders at the expense of another state. LIKE UKRAINE.
One of the principles of the modern international order is "the borders are the borders." The international community reflexively rejects unilateral declarations of annexation. As it did in 2014 and 2022.
You are quite disconnected from reality here. Not one nation is going to ever agree to decadal referendums of local jurisdictions to see which larger polity they would like to join.
And I'm for a 3rd party like the UN running the election.
I doubt you want a real vote…because the majority would almost certainly vote against union with Kyiv
Let's just say that was possible (which it is not) I would bet every dollar I had they would strongly reject Russia. You think 1/3 or more ethnic Ukrainians would vote for Russia despite Russia's butchery? Heck, 95% or more of ethnic Ukrainians voted against Russia in 1991 when Russia was rolling out the red carpet. And polls through pre-2014 invasion showed similar sentiment. Heck, ethnic Russian did. It want to rejoin Russia. But now they've somehow seen the Putin light?
It's only an odd subgroup of Americans who actually would choose Putin. Virtually everyone else sees him for what he really is - an evil, morally bankrupt, murderous, thug, dictator, tyrant, spy, narcissist, Soviet Empire daydreamer.
Polls consistently showed support for good relations with both Russia and the West. Not all-or-nothing alignment, as we insisted upon.
It's worth asking why the US itself supported Ukrainian neutrality in 1991. Today we talk as if that was a gross violation of sovereignty, but no one said so at the time. There are two possible reasons, neither of which is very good for your argument. One is that we lied. The other is that we recognized Russia's legitimate interests in Ukraine. So again, what changed?
A lot changed in 2014. Until then the people of the Donbas had relatively fair representation in Kiev. Maidan was, at best, a revolt by a small number of Western Ukrainians who fiercely opposed not only Russia but also Russian language, culture, and religion in Ukraine. At worst it was a coup orchestrated by the US. Either way, Crimea and the Donbas wanted no part of it. They and the rest of the country gave Zelensky a mandate to implement the Minsk Agreement, and Kiev betrayed them yet again. Meanwhile thousands were dying in a civil war against whom...Putin? No, they were being killed by Ukrainian forces with Western backing. That's the reality today, not 30 years ago.
And just to emphasize the most important point--even if everything you said were true, it would not remotely justify our risk of getting into war with Russia. The political shape of Ukraine is famously variable, so much so that there are ancient jokes about it. Life has always gone on. We should keep it that way.
I agree with more than you might think, but it really takes the Russian perspective on the issues. I fully realize there are multiple sides to these stories and that nobody has completely clean hands. I've never said to the contrary. However based on my study and knowledge of Russia and the region, my travel and work there, and countless hours discussing these issues with my Russian in-laws and Serb family, I believe Russia is by far most responsible for the carnage and instability and has always planned all of it.
I further believe Ukraine's cause is just, that we and our allies should support them, and that we are not risking war with Russia.
I'm curious about your last statement. How do you see this as not risking war?
Russia and the U.S. have supported each other's adversaries forever. We were supplying Ukraine before the invasion. Putin knew we and the Euros would help Ukraine post-invasion. Putin's only surprised (pleasantly so) that we didn't do more.
Putin wants no part of a war with the U.S. and we don't want one with him. Less than zero chance.
.....less than zero chance because both sides understand that Nato support for Ukraine, or Russian support for Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, etc....is not grounds for war. In fact, both sides expect the other to support proxies to oppose the foreign policy agenda of the other. Russia will actually keep pushing with the bayonet until it meets resistance. They did popularize the idiom, ya know...
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
No, it's more basic. Every country has its issues, but there is still a free world and then everyone else. Russia is and aligns with the everyone else. It's not a marketing issue. The world knows it, and they don't want any part of Russia.
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Free people are able to push back against their government's overreach. Russians do not have that luxury.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever.
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever. Yeah, Ukrainians really do dislike the Russian boot on their neck right now.
What an incredibly ahistorical take, wild-eyed foreign policy idealism from someone who idolizes realist policy platitudes.
People do not change borders. Regimes do. After wars.
People did not migrate and change borders before States/Regimes came into being?
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
As I've said, travel to, work, and spend time in Russia. I promise you won't think like this guy or Tucker "wow, what a great grocery store" Carlson.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much.
Latin America would beg to differ. So would much of Ukraine, for that matter.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
I talk to those people, those who have left and stayed. Yes, economic opportunity is a primary reason, but I think that issue is inseparable from the totalitarian state. Plus, many of those folks also allude to lack of freedoms, corruption, nepotism/patronage, police state, etc. These are standard topics in everyday conversations there.
I oppose the crackdowns you're referencing, but where are you seeing "thousands?" I read about many of these cases and often times, the backlash leads to reversals, which is great.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much.
Latin America would beg to differ. So would much of Ukraine, for that matter.
lol. Why and where do you think most of our illegal immigrants come from?
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much.
Latin America would beg to differ. So would much of Ukraine, for that matter.
Specifically which PEOPLE of Latin America? I'll give you Bolivians, Nicaraguans, and Cubans (if that's even Latin America). Who else?
And we've been over this countless times. In actual voting, every Ukrainian region voted to become independent, all but one region over 85%. Then for 23 years, not one region even tried to re-affiliate.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much.
Latin America would beg to differ. So would much of Ukraine, for that matter.
lol. Why and where do you think most of our illegal immigrants come from?
From places that we've exploited and immiserated in our pursuit of so-called "freedom."
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Only in the rarest of circumstances. When their government is overthrown by neo-Nazis, that's potentially one of those circumstances.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
I talk to those people, those who have left and stayed. Yes, economic opportunity is a primary reason, but I think that issue is inseparable from the totalitarian state. Plus, many of those folks also allude to lack of freedoms, corruption, nepotism/patronage, police state, etc. These are standard topics in everyday conversations there.
You read this board? They're standard topics of everyday conversation here too. It's called free speech.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
I talk to those people, those who have left and stayed. Yes, economic opportunity is a primary reason, but I think that issue is inseparable from the totalitarian state. Plus, many of those folks also allude to lack of freedoms, corruption, nepotism/patronage, police state, etc. These are standard topics in everyday conversations there.
You read this board? They're standard topics of everyday conversation here too. It's called free speech.
The difference is that Russians leave and non-Russians don't want to go there or affiliate with them.
Americans don't leave, and much of the world wants to come here and/or affiliate with us.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
I talk to those people, those who have left and stayed. Yes, economic opportunity is a primary reason, but I think that issue is inseparable from the totalitarian state. Plus, many of those folks also allude to lack of freedoms, corruption, nepotism/patronage, police state, etc. These are standard topics in everyday conversations there.
You read this board? They're standard topics of everyday conversation here too. It's called free speech.
The difference is that Russians leave and non-Russians don't want to go there or affiliate with them.
Americans don't leave, and much of the world wants to come here and/or affiliate with us.
45% of the world's population is affiliated with them through BRICS. Ukraine wanted to affiliate with them in 2014. We just wouldn't allow it because "freedom."
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
I talk to those people, those who have left and stayed. Yes, economic opportunity is a primary reason, but I think that issue is inseparable from the totalitarian state. Plus, many of those folks also allude to lack of freedoms, corruption, nepotism/patronage, police state, etc. These are standard topics in everyday conversations there.
You read this board? They're standard topics of everyday conversation here too. It's called free speech.
The difference is that Russians leave and non-Russians don't want to go there or affiliate with them.
Americans don't leave, and much of the world wants to come here and/or affiliate with us.
45% of the world's population is affiliated with them through BRICS. Ukraine wanted to affiliate with them in 2014. We just wouldn't allow it because "freedom."
All beacons of freedom!
BRICS is a joke. And China, India, and Brazil do far more business with the U.S. than their BRICS brethren.
And perhaps affiliate was a poor choice of words, but I thought you'd understand what I meant based on prior postings.
Ukraine did not want to affiliate with Russia in 2014. That was why no major political candidate ran on that platform.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
I talk to those people, those who have left and stayed. Yes, economic opportunity is a primary reason, but I think that issue is inseparable from the totalitarian state. Plus, many of those folks also allude to lack of freedoms, corruption, nepotism/patronage, police state, etc. These are standard topics in everyday conversations there.
You read this board? They're standard topics of everyday conversation here too. It's called free speech.
The difference is that Russians leave and non-Russians don't want to go there or affiliate with them.
Americans don't leave, and much of the world wants to come here and/or affiliate with us.
45% of the world's population is affiliated with them through BRICS. Ukraine wanted to affiliate with them in 2014. We just wouldn't allow it because "freedom."
All beacons of freedom!
BRICS is a joke. And China, India, and Brazil do far more business with the U.S. than their BRICS brethren.
And perhaps affiliate was a poor choice of words, but I thought you'd understand what I meant based on prior postings.
Ukraine did not want to affiliate with Russia in 2014. That was why no major political candidate ran on that platform.
I was hoping you meant affiliation as opposed to your usual demand for alignment. The latter is an outdated and increasingly destructive Cold War dogma.
Ukraine absolutely did want closer ties with both Russia and the West (almost as if they wished to remain neutral). And American heads are still exploding at the thought.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner
Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?
I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner
Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?
I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
Now, I do happen to agree that we have got to get our border situation under control and our immigration policies figured out.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner
Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?
I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation
I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech
A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
I talk to those people, those who have left and stayed. Yes, economic opportunity is a primary reason, but I think that issue is inseparable from the totalitarian state. Plus, many of those folks also allude to lack of freedoms, corruption, nepotism/patronage, police state, etc. These are standard topics in everyday conversations there.
You read this board? They're standard topics of everyday conversation here too. It's called free speech.
The difference is that Russians leave and non-Russians don't want to go there or affiliate with them.
Americans don't leave, and much of the world wants to come here and/or affiliate with us.
45% of the world's population is affiliated with them through BRICS. Ukraine wanted to affiliate with them in 2014. We just wouldn't allow it because "freedom."
All beacons of freedom!
BRICS is a joke. And China, India, and Brazil do far more business with the U.S. than their BRICS brethren.
Maybe not a joke but you're right they are certainly in no position to supplant the US anytime soon or probably ever
Brazil, China, and Russia are all facing population decline over the next coming decades
South Africa is a basket case of a country and extremely corrupt. It has about 28,000 murders each year and has a shrinking tax base.
[The reasons behind SA's shrinking tax base.
Personal Income Tax (PIT) collection, the largest source of tax revenue in South Africa, has fallen in recent years. Between 2003 and 2012, the number of PIT taxpayers grew by 7.0%. Since 2012, however, some of these gains have been eroded with a -2.1% decline in the number of taxpayers, according to data from SARS. This is particularly worrying as there were only 5.2 million individual taxpayers in 2020. These 5.2 million individuals, (representing approximately 9% of the population), contribute 40% of South Africa's total tax revenue. Breaking it down further, about 20% of individual taxpayers contributed to three quarters of personal income tax revenue in 2020.]
India is in the best position out of all of them but has no reason to prop up the rest and is interested in trade with everyone so its not going to antagonize the USA for no reason.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner
Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?
I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation
I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech
A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.
Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"
National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner
Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?
I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation
I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech
A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.
Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"
National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.
What the hell are you talking about? Where did I say anything about foreign actors "doing anything they want"?
You clearly cannot read if you think I promote unfettered mass immigration.
Jesus, some of y'all have completely lost your ability to reason in any form or fashion….if you ever had it to begin with.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner
Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?
I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation
I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech
A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.
Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"
National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.
What the hell are you talking about? Where did I say anything about foreign actors "doing anything they want"?
You clearly cannot read if you think I promote unfettered mass immigration.
Jesus, some of y'all have completely lost your ability to reason in any form or fashion….if you ever had it to begin with.
Must be my mistake, I thought you're the one saying illegal immigration is OK and equivalent to protected free speech.
Glad we're on the same page, and that you think mass immigration is unhealthy and proponents of illegal immigration are reprehensible as well.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner
Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?
I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation
I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech
A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.
Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"
National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.
Where did I say a damn thing about accepting unfettered mass immigration or that foreign actors can do anything they want? What the hell are you reading or talking about?
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner
Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?
I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation
I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech
A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.
Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"
National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.
Where did I say a damn thing about accepting unfettered mass immigration or that foreign actors can do anything they want? What the hell are you reading or talking about?
This is you, right?
Quote:
trey3216 said: You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner
Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?
I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation
I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech
A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.
Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"
National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.
What the hell are you talking about? Where did I say anything about "foreign actors DOING ANYTHING THEY WANT"? I said nothing of the sort.
And you clearly cannot read if you think I promote unfettered mass immigration.
Some of y'all have completely lost your ability to reason in any form or fashion.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner
Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?
I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation
I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech
A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.
Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"
National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.
Where did I say a damn thing about accepting unfettered mass immigration or that foreign actors can do anything they want? What the hell are you reading or talking about?
This is you, right?
Quote:
trey3216 said: You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
Folks like BarBearian don't want any immigrants in our country. A legal immigrant in our country is making a statement of speech that they want to be here and are willing to do what it takes to be here and be a productive member of society, yet there are people that want them gone as well. That's "arresting" someone for far worse than free speech.
Ow, since it seems you can't read good, and you interpolated my comment into "Unfettered Mass Immigration" and " foreign actors can do anything they want"…..then i don't believe I'll be of any help to you. That's where my comment "inability to reason in any form or fashion" comes into play.
Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.
And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine
Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them
Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it
Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?
Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!
I would not have opposed it pre-2014
So what is the plan?
Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)
Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?
A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."
The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years
It was part of the USSR for 70 years
It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)
Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"
They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.
Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?
Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with
How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?
Sure, why not?
Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?
I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.
It all seems very very arbitrary
Independence for some people....not for others.
Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.
Humans have been changing borders forever
No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it
DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever
Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.
Maybe
Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world
I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either
And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment
Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find
Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.
Non sequitur
Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America
In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.
Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.
Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.
Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.
Russia is losing lots of young people.
But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons
But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening
It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner
Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?
I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation
I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech
A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.
Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"
National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.
Where did I say a damn thing about accepting unfettered mass immigration or that foreign actors can do anything they want? What the hell are you reading or talking about?
This is you, right?
Quote:
trey3216 said: You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.
Folks like BarBearian don't want any immigrants in our country.
An opinion he is entitled to have
(But not mine so don't loop me in with him)
You moralize immigration but it's a pure economic issue.
And people can easily come to the conclusion you favor no restrictions on mass migration given how the only time you get up set about it is when someone like him opposes migration.
