trey3216 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

---

Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

---

Humans have been changing borders forever

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever

---

Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.

---

Maybe

Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world

I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either

And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment

Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find

---

Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.

---

Non sequitur

Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America

In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.

Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.

Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.

---

Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.

---

Russia is losing lots of young people.

But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons

But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening

---

It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner

---

Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?

I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion

---

You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.

---

No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation

I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech

A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.

---

Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"

National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.

---

Where did I say a damn thing about accepting unfettered mass immigration or that foreign actors can do anything they want? What the hell are you reading or talking about?

---

You started down this irrational path of argument when you tried to make an illogical link between the Western European governments crack down on free speech they don't like….and people like me not liking illegal immigration here in the USA

You jumped the shark on that one

JUST IN: 🇨🇦🇺🇦 Canada bans another 324 firearm varieties and plans to send confiscated weapons from citizens to Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/x2F1Yah5TP

— BRICS News (@BRICSinfo) December 6, 2024

Quote:

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Not one nation is going to ever agree to decadal referendums of local jurisdictions to see which larger polity they would like to join.

I mean, really.....

---

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them..."

I mean really. That is what the colonists did. That is what Texas did. That is what the eastern oblasts of Ukraine did. That is what the eastern counties in Idaho are trying to do. You spent far too much time in the CIA for your own good.

Realitybites said:

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Quote:

---

Not one nation is going to ever agree to decadal referendums of local jurisdictions to see which larger polity they would like to join.

I mean, really.....

---

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them..."

I mean really. That is what the colonists did. That is what Texas did. That is what the eastern oblasts of Ukraine did. That is what the eastern counties in Idaho are trying to do. You spent far too much time in the CIA for your own good.

---

I mean, really. That is not remotely what happened in the eastern Oblasts. They were destabilized by exactly the kind of unconventional warfare you claim to hate. Russia flat out invaded Crimea in 2014, then flat out invaded the rest of Ukraine in 2022 to subsume the whole thing into Russian polity. So the situation is not at all that Ukraine is trying to secede from Russia. It already has. Russia invaded to get it back.

The faulty premise in your reasoning on the Donbas is simple, but profound: You are conflating "Russian speaking" with "Russian ethnic." That is not reality. The eastern provinces of Ukraine were/are peopled overwhelmingly by ethnic Ukrainians, a high percentage of which spoke Russian as their first language, plus a large minority of ethnic Russians, resulting in about 65% of the people in the Donbas speaking Russian as a first language. Russia, almost exactly as Hitler did with the Sudetenland, sent in little green men to destablize the Donbas to create a pretext for intervention. It worked brilliantly.

You can't create your own facts, buddy. The Russia/Ukraine War is 100% a revanchist war of territorial expansion BY RUSSIA. The looming prospect of war between Russia and Nato was not created by anything Nato or Ukraine did; it was created by an unprovoked Russian invasion of Ukraine.

but Russian propaganda makes you feel good, and it is a free country, so swig away

whiterock said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

Not one nation is going to ever agree to decadal referendums of local jurisdictions to see which larger polity they would like to join.

I mean, really.....

---

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them..."

I mean really. That is what the colonists did. That is what Texas did. That is what the eastern oblasts of Ukraine did. That is what the eastern counties in Idaho are trying to do. You spent far too much time in the CIA for your own good.

---

I mean, really. That is not remotely what happened in the eastern Oblasts. They were destabilized by exactly the kind of unconventional warfare you claim to hate. Russia flat out invaded Crimea in 2014, then flat out invaded the rest of Ukraine in 2022 to subsume the whole thing into Russian polity. So the situation is not at all that Ukraine is trying to secede from Russia. It already has. Russia invaded to get it back.

The faulty premise in your reasoning on the Donbas is simple, but profound: You are conflating "Russian speaking" with "Russian ethnic." That is not reality. The eastern provinces of Ukraine were/are peopled overwhelmingly by ethnic Ukrainians, a high percentage of which spoke Russian as their first language, plus a large minority of ethnic Russians, resulting in about 65% of the people in the Donbas speaking Russian as a first language. Russia, almost exactly as Hitler did with the Sudetenland, sent in little green men to destablize the Donbas to create a pretext for intervention. It worked brilliantly.

You can't create your own facts, buddy. The Russia/Ukraine War is 100% a revanchist war of territorial expansion BY RUSSIA. The looming prospect of war between Russia and Nato was not created by anything Nato or Ukraine did; it was created by an unprovoked Russian invasion of Ukraine.

but Russian propaganda makes you feel good, and it is a free country, so swig away

---

But you sure can, as evidenced above. Those CIA disinformation classes obviously paid off.

Your second paragraph is a complete red herring, by the way. It makes no difference whether they were "ethnic Russians." They could have been ethnic Klingons for all that matters. What matters is that they were being mistreated and they wanted out.

whiterock said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

Not one nation is going to ever agree to decadal referendums of local jurisdictions to see which larger polity they would like to join.

I mean, really.....

---

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them..."

I mean really. That is what the colonists did. That is what Texas did. That is what the eastern oblasts of Ukraine did. That is what the eastern counties in Idaho are trying to do. You spent far too much time in the CIA for your own good.

---

The faulty premise in your reasoning on the Donbas is simple, but profound: You are conflating "Russian speaking" with "Russian ethnic." That is not reality. The eastern provinces of Ukraine were/are peopled overwhelmingly by ethnic Ukrainians

---

Its an issue of national identity vs a real ethnic identity.....Russians, Belarusians, and Ukrainians are all the same race....Eastern Slavs who speak a very similar language. (in fact all 3 people groups were in the same state for hundreds of years...Russian Empire & USSR) so the lines are very blurred especially on the border lands of these 3 new States

Its like parsing out identities in the UK between the various White British populations...Scots, N. Irish, English, Welsh....but in many ways harder since the UK has had defined borders for a long time even under a central gov. in London...and places like Scotland had a long history of being independent before the modern UK

Its not exactly cut and dry science in Donbas

If a person is in eastern Ukraine is speaking russian there is a very good chance they consider themselves russian. And it might not line up with what they mark down on a census form

And there is good reason to suspect a big change in how people mark down their identity after a decade of war with Kyiv

For instance many people in the USA who are ethnically English/Scots-Irish but mark down American on the census form for ethnicity for whatever reason.

whiterock said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

Not one nation is going to ever agree to decadal referendums of local jurisdictions to see which larger polity they would like to join.

I mean, really.....

---

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them..."

I mean really. That is what the colonists did. That is what Texas did. That is what the eastern oblasts of Ukraine did. That is what the eastern counties in Idaho are trying to do. You spent far too much time in the CIA for your own good.

---

The Russia/Ukraine War is 100% a revanchist war of territorial expansion BY RUSSIA. The looming prospect of war between Russia and Nato was not created by anything Nato or Ukraine did; it was created by an unprovoked Russian invasion of Ukraine.

---

Maybe

But then it begs the question of why Russia did not invade the Baltics States before or rest the Central Asian nations if they were trying to "recreate the Russian Empire"?

(Or are they trying to recreate the USSR? I often forget what narrative you guys are going with....the scary return of the Czars or the scary return of the Communists)

Either way....the modern rulers in Moscow have only seemed to get aggressive when NATO (really DC) was playing around in their backyard with coups and attempting to expand.

Modern Russia has made it pretty clear to everyone that they consider Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, and Kazakhstan to be within their sphere of influence and will not tolerate NATO bases in those countries....and they have military intervened in every single case where that has been a possibility.

The real question is why do the powers that be in DC keep pushing into those countries and trying to tear them out of the Russian orbit? Seems like a deliberate policy meant to spark off conflict

Not to mention the obvious fact that the USA itself would never accept Canada or Mexico joining a hostile military alliance...DC would military intervene as well.

And of course has done so in the past....and would do so again in a heart beat.

This bs has got to stop. Either come to an agreement/ceasefire, or people are gonna keep dying.

Its not worth it just to hurt Russia.

Russian airstrike in Ukraine. Reportedly, 9 killed and dozens wounded. pic.twitter.com/FebohbkRCq

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) December 6, 2024

Doc Holliday said:

---

This bs has got to stop. Either come to an agreement/ceasefire, or people are gonna keep dying.

Its not worth it just to hurt Russia.

Russian airstrike in Ukraine. Reportedly, 9 killed and dozens wounded. pic.twitter.com/FebohbkRCq

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) December 6, 2024

---

Tell that to Russia. They don't give a shlt

trey3216 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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trey3216 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

---

Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

---

Humans have been changing borders forever

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever

---

Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.

---

Maybe

Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world

I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either

And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment

Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find

---

Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.

---

Non sequitur

Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America

In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.

Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.

Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.

---

Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.

---

Russia is losing lots of young people.

But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons

But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening

---

It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner

---

Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?

I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion

---

You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.

---

No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation

I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech

A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.

---

Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"

National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.

---

Where did I say a damn thing about accepting unfettered mass immigration or that foreign actors can do anything they want? What the hell are you reading or talking about?

---

This is you, right?

Quote:

---

trey3216 said:
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.

---

---

Folks like BarBearian don't want any immigrants in our country.

---

*duplicate post

trey3216 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

This bs has got to stop. Either come to an agreement/ceasefire, or people are gonna keep dying.

Its not worth it just to hurt Russia.

Russian airstrike in Ukraine. Reportedly, 9 killed and dozens wounded. pic.twitter.com/FebohbkRCq

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) December 6, 2024

---

Tell that to Russia. They don't give a shlt

---

Russia is evil. Eventually this thing will end.

The question is how many people have to die? What are their deaths worth?

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

Not one nation is going to ever agree to decadal referendums of local jurisdictions to see which larger polity they would like to join.

I mean, really.....

---

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them..."

I mean really. That is what the colonists did. That is what Texas did. That is what the eastern oblasts of Ukraine did. That is what the eastern counties in Idaho are trying to do. You spent far too much time in the CIA for your own good.

---

I mean, really. That is not remotely what happened in the eastern Oblasts. They were destabilized by exactly the kind of unconventional warfare you claim to hate. Russia flat out invaded Crimea in 2014, then flat out invaded the rest of Ukraine in 2022 to subsume the whole thing into Russian polity. So the situation is not at all that Ukraine is trying to secede from Russia. It already has. Russia invaded to get it back.

The faulty premise in your reasoning on the Donbas is simple, but profound: You are conflating "Russian speaking" with "Russian ethnic." That is not reality. The eastern provinces of Ukraine were/are peopled overwhelmingly by ethnic Ukrainians, a high percentage of which spoke Russian as their first language, plus a large minority of ethnic Russians, resulting in about 65% of the people in the Donbas speaking Russian as a first language. Russia, almost exactly as Hitler did with the Sudetenland, sent in little green men to destablize the Donbas to create a pretext for intervention. It worked brilliantly.

You can't create your own facts, buddy. The Russia/Ukraine War is 100% a revanchist war of territorial expansion BY RUSSIA. The looming prospect of war between Russia and Nato was not created by anything Nato or Ukraine did; it was created by an unprovoked Russian invasion of Ukraine.

but Russian propaganda makes you feel good, and it is a free country, so swig away

---

But you sure can, as evidenced above. Those CIA disinformation classes obviously paid off.

Your second paragraph is a complete red herring, by the way. It makes no difference whether they were "ethnic Russians." They could have been ethnic Klingons for all that matters. What matters is that they were being mistreated and they wanted out.
Not quite as bad as "Iran is the main source of stability in the region" nonsense, but nonsense nonetheless. There was no separatist movement in Donbas, just "little green men" pretending to be Ukrainians. Ethnicity does matter, a lot. And, not surprisingly, what Russia has done since 2022 has galvanized very high percentages (80-90%) of Russian-speaking Ukrainians to harden their identity as Ukrainians. So it matters a helluva lot more now than at the start of all this. That's why Russia is deporting Ukrainian-nationals from the Donbas to Eastern Russia in 7-digit numbers

---

You're trying to define your way out of a failed argument. Very weak. If ethnicity meant nothing, Russia would not be engaging in ethnic cleansing in occupied Eastern Ukraine.

trey3216 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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trey3216 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

---

Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

---

Humans have been changing borders forever

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever

---

Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.

---

Maybe

Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world

I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either

And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment

Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find

---

Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.

---

Non sequitur

Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America

In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.

Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.

Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.

---

Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.

---

Russia is losing lots of young people.

But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons

But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening

---

It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner

---

Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?

I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion

---

You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.

---

No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation

I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech

A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.

---

Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"

National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.

---

Where did I say a damn thing about accepting unfettered mass immigration or that foreign actors can do anything they want? What the hell are you reading or talking about?

---

This is you, right?

Quote:

---

trey3216 said:
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.

---

---

Folks like BarBearian don't want any immigrants in our country. A legal immigrant in our country is making a statement of speech that they want to be here and are willing to do what it takes to be here and be a productive member of society, yet there are people that want them gone as well. That's "arresting" someone for far worse than free speech.



Ow, since it seems you can't read good, and you interpolated my comment into "Unfettered Mass Immigration" and " foreign actors can do anything they want"…..then i don't believe I'll be of any help to you. That's where my comment "inability to reason in any form or fashion" comes into play.

---

I want legal immigration similar to the rules in New Zealand.

To get residency one has to prove he has a needed SKILL or if retired …..

must be over the age of 64 and invest a minimum of $ 700,000 into the country AND prove you have a passive annual income of at least $ 60,000 per year.

Only in the United States are completely unskilled, poverty stricken individuals are allowed to enter by the millions.

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

---

Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

---

Humans have been changing borders forever

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever

---

Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.

---

Maybe

Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world

I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either

And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment

Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find

---

Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.

---

Non sequitur

Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America

In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.

Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.

Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.

---

I think Russia being worse is exactly the point and the reason free countries don't want to associate with Russia. Sure, Europe has its issues with leftists who want to jail political opponents, but you disagree with the regime in Russia and you fall off of tall buildings.

Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

---

Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

---

Humans have been changing borders forever

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever

---

Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much.

---

Latin America would beg to differ. So would much of Ukraine, for that matter.

---

lol. Why and where do you think most of our illegal immigrants come from?

---

From places that we've exploited and immiserated in our pursuit of so-called "freedom."

---

LMAO. Well there you go. There's the proof.

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Only in the rarest of circumstances. When their government is overthrown by neo-Nazis, that's potentially one of those circumstances.

---

More hilarity. Oy vey.

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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Not one nation is going to ever agree to decadal referendums of local jurisdictions to see which larger polity they would like to join.

I mean, really.....

---

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them..."

I mean really. That is what the colonists did. That is what Texas did. That is what the eastern oblasts of Ukraine did. That is what the eastern counties in Idaho are trying to do. You spent far too much time in the CIA for your own good.

---

The Russia/Ukraine War is 100% a revanchist war of territorial expansion BY RUSSIA. The looming prospect of war between Russia and Nato was not created by anything Nato or Ukraine did; it was created by an unprovoked Russian invasion of Ukraine.

---

Maybe

But then it begs the question of why Russia did not invade the Baltics States before or rest the Central Asian nations if they were trying to "recreate the Russian Empire"?
The answer on the Baltics is easy & obvious - the Baltics are part of Nato and Ukraine is not. take the easy win.....destabilize, intimidate, invade. It's a very, very old template. Central Asia is not germane to what the Russians clearly view as the most proximate threat - Nato.

(Or are they trying to recreate the USSR? I often forget what narrative you guys are going with....the scary return of the Czars or the scary return of the Communists)
You are very poorly informed. Russian intentions, stated and implied, are very clear. They want to restore the strategic position they had as the USSR. They want to reincorporate Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltics, and have alliances with Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria. Every single step they've taken fits that template.

Either way....the modern rulers in Moscow have only seemed to get aggressive when NATO (really DC) was playing around in their backyard with coups and attempting to expand.
Just 180-degrees wrong. What we see today is a centuries old template of Russian expansion and collapse. Within that is another fatal assumption in your arguments - the conflict at play is actually a conflict of ages, between modernity and the 19th century. What Nato did/didn't is really immaterial because in no meaningful way has Russia changed its worldview on what it is entitled to own or control. It was always very predictable - Russia would seek to regain its losses in Eastern & Central Europe.

Modern Russia has made it pretty clear to everyone that they consider Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, and Kazakhstan to be within their sphere of influence and will not tolerate NATO bases in those countries....and they have military intervened in every single case where that has been a possibility.
Logical flaw: none of those countries had even applied for membership when Russia intervened there. They moved to make the matter moot, not to foreclose any looming threat of it happening. Some have become Nato partners, but so were Sweden and Finland, and Russia never saw that as an unreasonable threat to their national security.

The real question is why do the powers that be in DC keep pushing into those countries and trying to tear them out of the Russian orbit? Seems like a deliberate policy meant to spark off conflict
Logical flaw: The only meaningful sense in which the statement "DC (kept) pushing into those countries" is accurate is in that DC refused to say "sure, Vlad, those countries are yours and we will ignore them."

Not to mention the obvious fact that the USA itself would never accept Canada or Mexico joining a hostile military alliance...DC would military intervene as well.
Again, you are using Russian propaganda to promote a pro-Russian argument. The actual facts are this: 1) Ukraine had not applied for Nato membership; 2) Ukraine was, by charter, not eligible for Nato membership; and 3) Ukraine did not have even a quarter of the number of votes required to join. All three of those points are still true today.

And of course has done so in the past....and would do so again in a heart beat.
Don't forget about Cuba, Nicaragua, and Venezuela, all three of which are subject to the Monroe Doctrine yet have not been invaded by US troops during the global age.

---

Dude. Repeat after me:
-Refusing to say what you will not do is not grounds for war.
-Engaging in non-military economic policy is not grounds for war.

Look around.
1) Sweden & Finland are object lessons for you. Why did two nations who were the avatars of non-alignment spin almost on a dime, in public opinion driven policy, to join Nato?
Answer: Because they saw what Russia did in Ukraine and knew a new (old) age was upon them....a non-aligned country in their exact same status (independent EU members & Nato partners) being invaded to be forcibly brought into Russian polity/alliance.

2) How could Nato be so united over Ukraine, in many instances acting more hawkishly than the US, if the problem was merely CIA driven gamesmanship? Several Nato member states are so alarmed at what Russia has done they are literally mobilizing for war. Look at what Sweden....SWEDEN....has done. Is this because of US bullying, or Russian bullying? Remember, the default worldview for most of Europe during the Nato era has been underfunded military dovishness.
https://rib.msb.se/filer/pdf/30874.pdf

Today in Sweden. The government is sending every household a 30-page guide about preparation in case of crisis or war.

It begins with these words: If Sweden is attacked, we will never surrender. Any information suggesting that resistance has been ceased is false. pic.twitter.com/pM0D1g2bq2

— Tuuli Lappalainen (@tuuliel) November 18, 2024

KaiBear said:

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trey3216 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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trey3216 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

---

Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

---

Humans have been changing borders forever

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever

---

Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.

---

Maybe

Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world

I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either

And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment

Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find

---

Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.

---

Non sequitur

Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America

In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.

Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.

Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.

---

Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.

---

Russia is losing lots of young people.

But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons

But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening

---

It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner

---

Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?

I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion

---

You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.

---

No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation

I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech

A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.

---

Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"

National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.

---

Where did I say a damn thing about accepting unfettered mass immigration or that foreign actors can do anything they want? What the hell are you reading or talking about?

---

This is you, right?

Quote:

---

trey3216 said:
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.

---

---

Folks like BarBearian don't want any immigrants in our country. A legal immigrant in our country is making a statement of speech that they want to be here and are willing to do what it takes to be here and be a productive member of society, yet there are people that want them gone as well. That's "arresting" someone for far worse than free speech.



Ow, since it seems you can't read good, and you interpolated my comment into "Unfettered Mass Immigration" and " foreign actors can do anything they want"…..then i don't believe I'll be of any help to you. That's where my comment "inability to reason in any form or fashion" comes into play.

---

I want legal immigration similar to the rules in New Zealand.

To get residency one has to prove he has a needed SKILL or if retired …..

must be over the age of 64 and invest a minimum of $ 700,000 into the country AND prove you have a passive annual income of at least $ 60,000 per year.

Only in the United States are completely unskilled, poverty stricken individuals are allowed to enter by the millions.

---

Those seem like good policies!

disagree. does little to address birthrate and saddles us with old-age expenses - medicare, social security, etc......

must import people of child bearing age (with skills, etc.....)

trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

---

And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

---

Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

---

So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

---

A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

---

The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

---

They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

---

Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

---

How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

---

Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

---

Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

---

Humans have been changing borders forever

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever

---

Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.

---

Maybe

Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world

I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either

And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment

Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find

---

Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.

---

Non sequitur

Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America

In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.

Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.

Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.

---

Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.

---

Russia is losing lots of young people.

But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons

But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening

---

It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner

---

Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?

I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion

---

You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.

Now, I do happen to agree that we have got to get our border situation under control and our immigration policies figured out.

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That's nuts! If people come to the US illegal, they are criminals and should be arrested. Then deported. Most Americans agree. This issue might be the main reason Trump won in a landslide: he has a mandate. I think even many Dems might agree up to a point.

trey3216 said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Russia invaded in 2014. You and Putin believe that invasion and Russia's subsequent declaration of Donbas independence and inclusion in the Russian Fed was legitimate and should be recognized. The rest of the world disagrees.

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And you think DC bombing Serbia into submission so that Kosovo could be illegally separated from the Nation was fine

Both Moscow and DC violate international law when it pleases them

Personally I think the people of Donbas should be allowed to vote on it

Do you oppose the people of Donbas being able to vote who they want to be in a political union with?

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Of course I oppose it now. A vote after invasion, takeover, and murder/expulsion of people is not a vote at all. And nothing like Spetsnaz voting observers!

I would not have opposed it pre-2014

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So what is the plan?

Zelensky keeps making war trying to retake the Donbas? (Been going on now for 10 years)

Kyiv does somehow retake it and then has to deal with a long term Russian backed rebel/insurgency movement?

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A few posts back I said I accept that Ukraine will have to give up the Donbas. That does not mean it's right, and certainly does not mean "it's always been Russia anyway."

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The Donbas was part of the Russian Empire for hundreds of years

It was part of the USSR for 70 years

It was part of a independent Ukrainian State for 23 years before hostilities broken out (1991-2014)

Letting the people of the Donbas vote is the only logical way to solve the problem of "who owns the Donbas"

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They voted overwhelmingly in 1991 and voted through inaction every year thereafter.

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Gosh….what could have changed in 2014 that made the people of Donbas feel differently?

Let's have a modern vote and find out who Donbas wants to be in a political union with

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How often would you propose letting every province in the world having a plebiscite on the question of which state it preferred to be a part of? Once a century? Once a decade? Every year?

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Sure, why not?

Should we be preventing borders from being redrawn by force?

I get confused when the DC crowd hates secession movements at home or in Donbas...but then likes them in South Sudan, Kosovo, East Timor, Ukraine and the Baltic States in 1991, etc.

It all seems very very arbitrary

Independence for some people....not for others.

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Perpetually fluid borders is the worst possible plan of all to prevent wars.

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Humans have been changing borders forever

No matter how much Empires and their rulers hate it

DC and Moscow both dislike it when people try to leave and become independent ….but you can't keep a boot on people forever

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Interestingly … free people tend to want to affiliate and align with the U.S. Russia, not so much. And that's what really bothers Russia and why they bottom feed with Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba.

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Maybe

Might also be that the West is where the money is right now in the world

I mean they lock people up in Europe for Facebook memes so it's not exactly free either

And Americans liberals would love to bring that kind of thing here but luckily we still have a 1st amendment

Russians are also just really bad a making friends or influencing people so the losers club of leftovers might be the only counties they can find

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Political correctness sucks. But it's better than being poisoned, sent to Siberia, Africa, or Syria, and otherwise languishing under a brutal totalitarian regime with few freedoms and little hope for a bright future.

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Non sequitur

Its more than political correctness that sucks....as in America

In Europe you can and do go to jail for free speech....that is not freedom.

Now Russia, China, etc. might be worse but that is not the point.

Konstantin Kirsten even makes the point that sometimes its actually worse in the UK than Russia.

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Actually it is precisely the point - that Russia is far worse - and everyone knows it, and that - not poor marketing - is why free people fight to avoid Russian affiliation.

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Russia is losing lots of young people.

But if you asked the vast majority to them why they are leaving....it would be for economic reasons

But Western Europan nations arresting thousands of people a year for free speech is eye opening

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It's funny that you and BarBearian are actually encouraging the US to do the same....just in a different manner

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Where have I ever encouraged the US government to arrest people for free speech?

I honestly don't know how you could read posts of mine on this forum for years and come to that conclusion

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You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.

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No one has the right to enter another country illegally and against the laws of that Nation

I know you are ludicrously pro-mass immigration but have never heard someone equate migration with free speech

A guy from another country being arrested for entering the US illegally....is very very different than a working class British person being arrested for facebook memes or sharing a view the government does not like.

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Clearly true. Complete nonsense by him to believe that foreign actors can do anything they want if guised as "free speech"

National acceptance of Unfettered mass immigration is effectively a death knell for any nation. Its proponents are misguided utopians with thoughts of unicorns running wild and fairies dusting the land.

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Where did I say a damn thing about accepting unfettered mass immigration or that foreign actors can do anything they want? What the hell are you reading or talking about?

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This is you, right?

Quote:

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trey3216 said:
You encourage the US govt to arrest people for making the decision to immigrate to our country. That is as blatant a statement of speech as the spoken word.

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Folks like BarBearian don't want any immigrants in our country. A legal immigrant in our country is making a statement of speech that they want to be here and are willing to do what it takes to be here and be a productive member of society, yet there are people that want them gone as well. That's "arresting" someone for far worse than free speech.



Ow, since it seems you can't read good, and you interpolated my comment into "Unfettered Mass Immigration" and " foreign actors can do anything they want"…..then i don't believe I'll be of any help to you. That's where my comment "inability to reason in any form or fashion" comes into play.

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Rapists & murderers ard not productive m need of society. Neither are members of the Venezuelan gang that have taken over parts of several American cities, including San Antonio, of terrorists. Technically, victims of the sex traffickers are not productive members of society either, unless one believes pedophiles should be allowed to have minor slaves to use as they wish. Obviously, they ard not the same as most illegals and most illegals probably don't belong to any of these groups. But our open borders have brought far too many of each. We gave a huge crisis created by Biden, Harris, & Mayorkas. They are the greatest coyotes in history.

whiterock said:

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disagree. does little to address birthrate and saddles us with old-age expenses - medicare, social security, etc......

must import people of child bearing age (with skills, etc.....)

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You can't solve the birth rate crisis by importing people.

Or at least it's not a long term solution since birth rates are collapsing in the rest of the world as well

It's kicking the can down the road as it were

Fertility rate by region:

Africa
4.5. (the highest in the world)
Europe
1.6. (the lowest in the world
Asia
2.2
Latin America and the Caribbean
2.2
Oceania
2.4

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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disagree. does little to address birthrate and saddles us with old-age expenses - medicare, social security, etc......

must import people of child bearing
age (with skills, etc.....)

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You can't solve the birth rate crisis by importing people.

Or at least it's not a long term solution since brith rates are collapsing in the rest of the world as well

It's kicking the can down the road as it were

Fertility rate by region:

Africa
4.5. (the highest in the world)
Europe
1.6. (the lowest in the world
Asia
2.2
Latin America and the Caribbean
2.2
Oceania
2.4

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Well, yeah, you can solve your birth rate problem with immigration,, but there are costs and limits which make it impractical. Among the costs are socio-political destabilization, at least when done numbers significant enough to fill gaps in birth rates. Among the limits - eventually, all the sources will have birth rate problems, too. And also some nations have more options than others - not everywhere has the "draw" that we do

But one can kick the can down the road. We've done a bit more than that with 30m illegals over the last two decades. Do the math…. That is not to say there are not other things worth doing.

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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disagree. does little to address birthrate and saddles us with old-age expenses - medicare, social security, etc......

must import people of child bearing
age (with skills, etc.....)

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You can't solve the birth rate crisis by importing people.

Or at least it's not a long term solution since brith rates are collapsing in the rest of the world as well

It's kicking the can down the road as it were

Fertility rate by region:

Africa
4.5. (the highest in the world)
Europe
1.6. (the lowest in the world
Asia
2.2
Latin America and the Caribbean
2.2
Oceania
2.4

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Well, yeah, you can solve your birth rate problem with immigration,, but there are costs and limits which make it impractical…

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Well not forever you can't

The world population will probably stop growing this decade or the next.

And there will not be enough people in the rest of the world to feed the demand for immigrants in half of the world that does not have replacement level births

(As of 2024, the total population has already peaked in 63 countries or areas, including Russia, Germany, and China…)

The USA might be one of the few desirable counties that can sort of pick who they want going forward into the end of the century.

But eventually at the rate everyone is headed to decline it's gonna be hard to stay

21st century is going to be interesting

((slow clap….))
Let the proxies do their thing.
Keep our powder dry.
Russia gets weaker.
By extension, China gets weaker.
We get stronger.

Opposition fighters in Syria, in an unprecedented move, have totally taken over numerous cities, in a highly coordinated offensive, and are now on the outskirts of Damascus, obviously preparing to make a very big move toward taking out Assad. Russia, because they are so tied up…

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 7, 2024

It's a new day for Syria.
Also for NATO.
Iran and Russia have lost their base of operations in the entire Mediterranean, and can no loner maintain a presence there. Russia has no repair/refit facilities in the Med, and cannot transit the Bosporus. The Baltic is a NATO lake. So they're going to have to redeploy to Murmansk.

At minimum, this incentivizes Russia to come to peace talks, if for no other reason than to open the Bosporus.

And Iran. Hoo boy. It's a much bigger shot in the shorts for them. Will make it very difficult to reconstitute Hizbullah as a conventional threat.

Winners: everybody.

Assad is finished

- Rebels have captured southern #Damascus suburbs, - Northern offensive are moving into the Damascus countryside and have entered #Homs
-Only #Latakia and #Tartus are safe for him now

After 14 years of killing, torturing, and bombing Syrians, #Assad is seeing… pic.twitter.com/8TFhqI8WH1

— Broderick McDonald (@BroderickM_) December 7, 2024

BREAKING: US announces nearly $1 billion more in longer-term weapons support for Ukraine https://t.co/cD84aWui4C

— The Associated Press (@AP) December 7, 2024

BREAKING: Satellite imagery confirms the Russian Navy has abandoned Tartus pic.twitter.com/ls8CEcTxEf

— William "Balloon Guy" Kim (@TheKimulation) December 7, 2024

whiterock said:

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Winners: everybody.

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Losers: the Christian men in Syria who McCain's terrorist buddies will murder, the women they will rape, and the children they will kill or enslave just as ISIS did. Everyone sane who doesn't equate what is good for the CIA/deep state as being good for America.

They just successfully destabilized Syria, and the end result is not going to be any better than Libya, Iraq, or the Muslim Brotherhood coming to power in Egypt. A very sad Christmas is coming for everyone in that country who wasn't a fan of the 9-11 attacks (Wahabbi Sunnis, who are now free to cut throats to their hearts content).

After several years of war, the Assad government clawed back much of the territory it lost to rebels with the help of Iran, Russia, and Lebanon's Hezbollah militia. But those allies have recently been decimated or distracted by other conflicts, leaving Mr. al-Assad vulnerable.

Osodecentx said:

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After several years of war, the Assad government clawed back much of the territory it lost to rebels with the help of Iran, Russia, and Lebanon's Hezbollah militia. But those allies have recently been decimated or distracted by other conflicts, leaving Mr. al-Assad vulnerable.

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Bingo. Hizballah controlled the entire western border between Lebanon & Syria. Homs, Syria was the funnel, for their sea routes of supply (from Tartus), and a major portion of their land supply, plus they had concentrations of forces in place to protect those lines Had they not been decimated by the Israeli incursion into Lebanon, the Iranians would have had them deployed north of Homs, where they'd likely stopped the rebels cold.

This is less a function of ability of Syrian rebels and more a matter of Syrian govt collapse while their allies (Russia, Iran, Hizballah) were all preoccupied and/or interdicted and/or thoroughly blowed up. So, yes, even Israel was a player here - first, destroying Hizballah as a fighting force; second, by making key attacks inside Syria to interdict the flow of troops/materiel all along the supply lines. It was an insurance round thru the ear hole of an opponent floundering on the canvas.

Russian miscalculations have been well documented. But they frankly pale compared to Iranian blunders. In less than 12 months, they've lost almost their entire national security investment in the Middle East, many billions of dollars over decades. Hizballah will not be able to reconstitute a significant conventional threat without a friendly Syrian regime (which is not in the cards). They're back being a terror group. (so expect to hear more from them in 2025. they'll work hard to become relevant again).

the IDF has slammed the door shut for any more iranian ground shipments ... pic.twitter.com/vzYRH7T2Ds

— david D. (@secretsqrl123) December 8, 2024

Realitybites said:

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whiterock said:

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Winners: everybody.

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Losers: the Christian men in Syria who McCain's terrorist buddies will murder, the women they will rape, and the children they will kill or enslave just as ISIS did. Everyone sane who doesn't equate what is good for the CIA/deep state as being good for America.

They just successfully destabilized Syria, and the end result is not going to be any better than Libya, Iraq, or the Muslim Brotherhood coming to power in Egypt. A very sad Christmas is coming for everyone in that country who wasn't a fan of the 9-11 attacks (Wahabbi Sunnis, who are now free to cut throats to their hearts content).

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probably not going to be as bad as you suspect. The Syrian rebel groups are all wholly owned subsidiaries of powers who will not want that to happen.

whiterock said:

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Realitybites said:

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whiterock said:

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Winners: everybody.

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Losers: the Christian men in Syria who McCain's terrorist buddies will murder, the women they will rape, and the children they will kill or enslave just as ISIS did. Everyone sane who doesn't equate what is good for the CIA/deep state as being good for America.

They just successfully destabilized Syria, and the end result is not going to be any better than Libya, Iraq, or the Muslim Brotherhood coming to power in Egypt. A very sad Christmas is coming for everyone in that country who wasn't a fan of the 9-11 attacks (Wahabbi Sunnis, who are now free to cut throats to their hearts content).

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The Syrian rebel groups are all wholly owned subsidiaries of powers .

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Yep

Looks like “our side in Syria” won. Let’s all hope it now doesn’t go like the last time we “won” in Iraq and Libya. pic.twitter.com/F3HbpE5uiv

— Aaron Maté (@aaronjmate) December 7, 2024

...and so it begins.

"Syrian Christians in Aleppo face "grave danger" after Islamist militias took over the city, local church leaders say. The militias, including jihadist groups, have seized control following the withdrawal of government forces and are removing all Christmas decorations...

This jihadist group's takeover has instilled fear among Aleppo's diverse religious communities, including Christians, Alawites, Shiites and non-observant Sunnis, due to HTS' history of enforcing a strict Sunni supremacist ideology with violent persecution, it noted.

The United Nations' Commission of Inquiry on Syria has documented the brutal governance of HTS, marked by executions, torture, sexual violence, and arbitrary detentions, alongside the desecration of religious sites. "

https://www.christianpost.com/news/syrian-christians-in-grave-danger-militias-seize-aleppo.html

Assad has fled Syria and Damascus has fallen to rebels.

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/syria-civil-war-damascus?st=8wgDG7&reflink=article_copyURL_share