sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

Zelensky will never step down from power.

Yall really need to understand that both Russia and Ukraine are extremely corrupt, but you've drank the kool aid about Ukraine from media propagandists paid through USAID.

Admitting that Ukraine is corrupt doesn't mean you're a Russian shill or that you're in favor of Russia. You're allowed to dislike both.

---

It's not kool aid. It's just recognizing that there is no comparison between Russia and Ukraine.

One is a friend, the other is an enemy who fights us in every corner of the world economically, politically, intel, and defense.

One is friends with our friends, the other is friends with our enemies - Iran, N Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, China, etc.

One is top 1/3 on the world free press index (and amazingly, improving 2022 to present), the other is near the bottom.

One is one of the most Christian countries in Europe, the other is one of the least.

One has demonstrably reduced corruption (public firings and arrests of even political allies), while the other is more corrupt than ever before.

One is defending its freedom and sovereignty, the other invaded.

One has a democratically elected leader elected in an internationally recognized free and secure election, the other has a dictator who literally murdered political enemies.

One has no oligarch or otherwise billionaire family members, while the other has notorious nepotism.

One has no ties to organized crime, the other has longtime ties to Russian mob.

One has a leader who is not a multi-billionaire, the other's leader is a multi-billionaire through corruption.

One has a leader who is not former KGB, the other has a leader who is former KGB.

As for martial law in Ukraine, it was the right move and was and is supported by all of Ukraine parliament. The people complaining about are not Ukrainians. Rather, it's Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan (who talks a big game but refused to interview Zelensky), and Poso.

---

Well, at least I can say I've had my dose of Uke propaganda for the year…and it's only February!

---

Please be specific. What is untrue?

---

You must like reading a lot of Russian propaganda.

Bear8084 said:

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sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Zelensky will never step down from power.

Yall really need to understand that both Russia and Ukraine are extremely corrupt, but you've drank the kool aid about Ukraine from media propagandists paid through USAID.

Admitting that Ukraine is corrupt doesn't mean you're a Russian shill or that you're in favor of Russia. You're allowed to dislike both.

---

It's not kool aid. It's just recognizing that there is no comparison between Russia and Ukraine.

One is a friend, the other is an enemy who fights us in every corner of the world economically, politically, intel, and defense.

One is friends with our friends, the other is friends with our enemies - Iran, N Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, China, etc.

One is top 1/3 on the world free press index (and amazingly, improving 2022 to present), the other is near the bottom.

One is one of the most Christian countries in Europe, the other is one of the least.

One has demonstrably reduced corruption (public firings and arrests of even political allies), while the other is more corrupt than ever before.

One is defending its freedom and sovereignty, the other invaded.

One has a democratically elected leader elected in an internationally recognized free and secure election, the other has a dictator who literally murdered political enemies.

One has no oligarch or otherwise billionaire family members, while the other has notorious nepotism.

One has no ties to organized crime, the other has longtime ties to Russian mob.

One has a leader who is not a multi-billionaire, the other's leader is a multi-billionaire through corruption.

One has a leader who is not former KGB, the other has a leader who is former KGB.

As for martial law in Ukraine, it was the right move and was and is supported by all of Ukraine parliament. The people complaining about are not Ukrainians. Rather, it's Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan (who talks a big game but refused to interview Zelensky), and Poso.

---

Well, at least I can say I've had my dose of Uke propaganda for the year…and it's only February!

---

Please be specific. What is untrue?

---

You must like reading a lot of Russian propaganda.

---

I just don't see how even the Russians can spin that list

sombear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Got a feeling yall hate Trump.

‼️🇷🇺🇺🇸 "They(Ukraine) may be Russians someday, or they may not be. Anyways I want our money back"

– US President, Donald Trump

Hahaha, what a statement, the Ukrainian media is crying at the moment. pic.twitter.com/miqdtJeHt4

— Spetsnaℤ 007 🇷🇺 (@Alex_Oloyede2) February 11, 2025

BTW, there's going to be a territory swap as part of the peace deal…which could have happened from the beginning but we allowed hundreds of thousands of VERY young men to die. Congrats.

---

I actually commend Trump. He's making crazy statements about both sides. That's what he does.

I told anyone who would listen that there was zero chance Trump would pull Ukraine funding. He knows how important it is.

He'll continue to say crazy things, and hopefully he'll help reach a deal.

No, it could NOT have happened from the beginning. Russia demanded far more.

---

They literally demanded less. First it was autonomy for two oblasts, then independence for said oblasts, then annexation of four oblasts, now quite possibly regime change. And all indications are they're not backing down on NATO membership or UN peacekeepers.

Don't be too sure about war funding, either. Trump wants to be paid back, and evidently he's proposing an offset to existing debts in exchange for minerals. Assuming Ukraine ends up in control of those minerals, and assuming it can wrest ownership from the corrupt oligarchs to whom they've already been promised (e.g. the head of Burisma), there's no guarantee that future aid will be forthcoming. Most telling of all is Trump's statement that Ukraine may or may not end up Russian. It sounds like he's looking for stability and doesn't much care who provides it.

Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

Got a feeling yall hate Trump.

‼️🇷🇺🇺🇸 "They(Ukraine) may be Russians someday, or they may not be. Anyways I want our money back"

– US President, Donald Trump

Hahaha, what a statement, the Ukrainian media is crying at the moment. pic.twitter.com/miqdtJeHt4

— Spetsnaℤ 007 🇷🇺 (@Alex_Oloyede2) February 11, 2025

BTW, there's going to be a territory swap as part of the peace deal…which could have happened from the beginning but we allowed hundreds of thousands of VERY young men to die. Congrats.

---

I actually commend Trump. He's making crazy statements about both sides. That's what he does.

I told anyone who would listen that there was zero chance Trump would pull Ukraine funding. He knows how important it is.

He'll continue to say crazy things, and hopefully he'll help reach a deal.

No, it could NOT have happened from the beginning. Russia demanded far more.

---

They literally demanded less.

---

ROFL!!!!!! No.

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Zelensky will never step down from power.

Yall really need to understand that both Russia and Ukraine are extremely corrupt, but you've drank the kool aid about Ukraine from media propagandists paid through USAID.

Admitting that Ukraine is corrupt doesn't mean you're a Russian shill or that you're in favor of Russia. You're allowed to dislike both.

---

It's not kool aid. It's just recognizing that there is no comparison between Russia and Ukraine.

One is a friend, the other is an enemy who fights us in every corner of the world economically, politically, intel, and defense.

One is friends with our friends, the other is friends with our enemies - Iran, N Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, China, etc.

One is top 1/3 on the world free press index (and amazingly, improving 2022 to present), the other is near the bottom.

One is one of the most Christian countries in Europe, the other is one of the least.

One has demonstrably reduced corruption (public firings and arrests of even political allies), while the other is more corrupt than ever before.

One is defending its freedom and sovereignty, the other invaded.

One has a democratically elected leader elected in an internationally recognized free and secure election, the other has a dictator who literally murdered political enemies.

One has no oligarch or otherwise billionaire family members, while the other has notorious nepotism.

One has no ties to organized crime, the other has longtime ties to Russian mob.

One has a leader who is not a multi-billionaire, the other's leader is a multi-billionaire through corruption.

One has a leader who is not former KGB, the other has a leader who is former KGB.

As for martial law in Ukraine, it was the right move and was and is supported by all of Ukraine parliament. The people complaining about are not Ukrainians. Rather, it's Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan (who talks a big game but refused to interview Zelensky), and Poso.

---

Well, at least I can say I've had my dose of Uke propaganda for the year…and it's only February!

---

Please be specific. What is untrue?

---

Russia isn't an enemy, it isn't notably unchristian, and it certainly isn't more corrupt than Ukraine. Ukraine isn't free or sovereign, nor is it defending those values. It's a failed satrapy and a livestock farm feeding meat into the grinder of America's war against an unwanted rival.

Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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USAID played a critical role in overturning the results of the 2004 Ukrainian presidential election between the pro-Western candidate, Viktor Yuschenko and pro-Russian candidate, Viktor Yanukovych. pic.twitter.com/AnbMEy85Io

— Josiah Lippincott (@jlippincott_) February 4, 2025

---

Glad this guy is breaking news that was well known over 20 years ago!

The fight was very much public: Russia and its allies on one wide, the Wes on the other.

.

---

Most Western countries in Europe never wanted this fight.

Most American either for that matter

Nor was the U.S. government open with our people that USAID and other groups were flooding Ukraine with tax payer money to support coups and regime change operations

---

sadly, Russia did want this fight, so it landed in our lap anyway.

---

lol Nothing landed in our lap

The powers that be in DC spent billions of tax payer dollars and 20+ years getting us into this mess

---

uh, no. the taxpayers did not spend billions to foment instability in Ukraine. Russia did that. We did the exact opposite.

There are things to criticize about our Ukraine policy over the last 20 years. But it is silly on every level to suggest that our actions forced Russia into a just war.

---

When you sponsor a regime change operation that over throws the guy who got the majority of the votes you are in fact destabilizing the country and its political system

And you are subverting democracy

---

There was no coup.
.

---

Of course there was a coup

The whole world watched as violent street protests drove the elected President from power in Kyiv

The involvement of the USG is up for debate.

But strong evidence suggests their fingers were all over it….

USAID was used to fund the Ukrainian color revolution in 2014 and kick off the start of a massive war against Russia that has been raging since then. https://t.co/PSI1oLgngF

— Ian Miles Cheong (@stillgray) February 2, 2025

---

Coup: a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group . . . often by the military.

Sudden? No. months of citizen protest.
Military-led? No.
Small group? No.
Overthrow? No. VY fled; the legislature voted overwhelmingly to oust, including his own party.

---

It was led by small militia groups, and much of VY's party fled along with him. That's why the vote was illegal.

I love this idea that a leader isn't being overthrown if he flees for his life. I guess it was just pure whimsy that caused him to abandon his post while the mob coincidentally raged outside the gates...ha ha.

---

VY never claimed he fled for his life.

No, his party voted unanimously to oust him.

---

Such a vote would not have been possible since the requisite party members weren't present. The situation was too volatile after the violence at Maidan Square, which we now know was most likely instigated by our right-wing militia friends.

Yanukovych requested protection from Russia "to ensure his personal security from extremists' actions," stating that he and his supporters were receiving threats of "inflicting bodily harm."

---

They convicted the people responsible for the Maiden killings. Found their weapons and everything. A few they imprisoned, until they were traded to Russia in a prisoner exchange, while the remainder fled and remain in Russia having been granted passports and citizenship.

---

That trial was a sham for any number of reasons. The majority of wounded protesters testified that they were shot from Maidan-controlled areas or saw snipers there. A minority believed that they were shot by police, but in most cases their testimony was inconsistent with video and forensic evidence.

Video evidence and testimony showed that almost all protester deaths happened before police snipers arrived, with orders to stop the mass shooting. It did stop almost immediately, whereupon the police themselves came under fire from Maidan locations.

Even the government concluded that nearly half the victims weren't shot from police positions. In those cases there were simply no charges filed. This may have something to do with the fact that blanket immunity was granted to all Maidan participants, so none of them were ever investigated.

So yeah, the kangaroo court may have convicted some people. But the people responsible for the bloodshed at Maidan? Don't bet on it.

---

They literally found the guns that they ditched in a pond that matched the caliber and ballistics. The location disclosed by one of the participants no less. They had video of the shooters at trial. They only questioned it because some were wearing masks or unclear images. Thats the reason only 48 killings were pinned on the specific officers. What they all had was Berkut police uniforms. Do you even realize how many Berkut police were convicted beyond the primary Maiden massacre for other beatings and killings, yet have found their way to Russia?

The protesters with arms were the "titushky" that were coordinated by Armen Sarkisyan and were counter protesters to Maiden. He's the guy I posted an article about who was assassinated in Moscow earlier this week.

This false flag madness is straight Russian disinformation and not supported by the actual facts. This was an actual 5 year investigation, and the only frustration from prosecutors was that the suspect/guilty kept getting traded to Russia or given lighter sentences.

---

The investigation produced zero evidence that the Yanukovych government hired titushki or any other third party groups, Russian, Ukrainian, or otherwise to do violence against protesters. Literally not a scrap.

This Sarkisyan story has been flickering around the surface of pro-Ukrainian media for a while, but there's no depth to it. Real reporters deal in details--names, dates, locations. Check your sources, and I'm guessing you won't find any. It's all conclusory statements by journalists and vague quotes from Ukrainian officials (Sarkisyan is "known for" this or "accused of" that).

What I'm saying isn't Russian spin. It's the overwhelming consensus among independent analysts. Even Zelensky admitted there are still questions.

---

You can't be serious Sam. It is straight Russian disinformation or nutball conspiracies, not "independent" analysis. There are a ton of sources, articles, testimony, etc. I just don't think it matters to you. Do they have a smoking gun on Yanukovych's direct involvement? No. In fact, the more likely scenario is he was under pressure from the Russians to suppress the riots, and they let things get out of control. They likely did it through his security chief who was a loyal Russian asset.

It's well known what Sarkisyan did during Maiden. He was always a henchman for Russia and their puppet regime. Obviously made too many enemies judging from the nature of his demise.

And there are still questions because over a hundred people died on those few fateful days in February and answers for only 48 of them have been provided. The search would continue, but the main suspects all fled or have been prisoner exchanged and are under the protection of Russia.

---

BBC is about as far from Russian propaganda as you can get. It's not just that Yanukovych wasn't directly involved. There was no evidence that anyone in the Yanukovych government was involved. And before you cry "Russia," the Ukrainian prosecutor in charge of the Maidan investigation expressly stated that there was no evidence of involvement by the Russian government or Russian snipers, either. What they did find was evidence that at least some of the protesters were killed or wounded by shots fired from the Ukraine Hotel and other Maidan-controlled locations.

There's no reason the Ukrainians couldn't charge people who fled to Russia. In some cases they did. But in most cases no charges were filed because they refused to investigate what the evidence clearly suggested. In fact they were prohibited from doing so. The new government passed a law granting immunity to all Maidan participants, which alone should be enough to cast serious doubt on the trial results.

Many of the key initial findings were also reversed, i.e. falsified, including the ballistic test results you referred to. Dozens of earlier tests showed that ballistics didn't match rifles used by the police. Video footage showed that officers either weren't present or weren't firing at the relevant times. Examination of victims' wounds showed that they were shot from elevated locations and from the back or the side, not from the front at ground level where the Berkut officers were.

What the investigation and trial actually found is completely different from what you're reading in pro-Ukrainian media.

---

I'm sorry Sam, the BBC article and what you're pushing above is sourced by a Canadian professor who's been pushing this false flag angle to anyone who would swallow it. He's been anti-West and pro-Russian from the outset. He's the one, not any courts, that has tried to discredit the ballistics findings, and other important evidentiary pieces. The BBC has had many other articles on the events of Maiden that fit along with the prevailing understanding of what occurred.

And it's well known that the FSB was in Kyiv at the time of the massacres. But unlike you, I'm not even pushing hard the Russians direct involvement the same way you guys glom onto one circumstance to represent a giant integrated conspiracy. If I did, the case wouldn't be as thin as what you guys present as fact on US involvement.

ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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USAID played a critical role in overturning the results of the 2004 Ukrainian presidential election between the pro-Western candidate, Viktor Yuschenko and pro-Russian candidate, Viktor Yanukovych. pic.twitter.com/AnbMEy85Io

— Josiah Lippincott (@jlippincott_) February 4, 2025

---

Glad this guy is breaking news that was well known over 20 years ago!

The fight was very much public: Russia and its allies on one wide, the Wes on the other.

.

---

Most Western countries in Europe never wanted this fight.

Most American either for that matter

Nor was the U.S. government open with our people that USAID and other groups were flooding Ukraine with tax payer money to support coups and regime change operations

---

sadly, Russia did want this fight, so it landed in our lap anyway.

---

lol Nothing landed in our lap

The powers that be in DC spent billions of tax payer dollars and 20+ years getting us into this mess

---

uh, no. the taxpayers did not spend billions to foment instability in Ukraine. Russia did that. We did the exact opposite.

There are things to criticize about our Ukraine policy over the last 20 years. But it is silly on every level to suggest that our actions forced Russia into a just war.

---

When you sponsor a regime change operation that over throws the guy who got the majority of the votes you are in fact destabilizing the country and its political system

And you are subverting democracy

---

There was no coup.
.

---

Of course there was a coup

The whole world watched as violent street protests drove the elected President from power in Kyiv

The involvement of the USG is up for debate.

But strong evidence suggests their fingers were all over it….

USAID was used to fund the Ukrainian color revolution in 2014 and kick off the start of a massive war against Russia that has been raging since then. https://t.co/PSI1oLgngF

— Ian Miles Cheong (@stillgray) February 2, 2025

---

Coup: a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group . . . often by the military.

Sudden? No. months of citizen protest.
Military-led? No.
Small group? No.
Overthrow? No. VY fled; the legislature voted overwhelmingly to oust, including his own party.

---

It was led by small militia groups, and much of VY's party fled along with him. That's why the vote was illegal.

I love this idea that a leader isn't being overthrown if he flees for his life. I guess it was just pure whimsy that caused him to abandon his post while the mob coincidentally raged outside the gates...ha ha.

---

VY never claimed he fled for his life.

No, his party voted unanimously to oust him.

---

Such a vote would not have been possible since the requisite party members weren't present. The situation was too volatile after the violence at Maidan Square, which we now know was most likely instigated by our right-wing militia friends.

Yanukovych requested protection from Russia "to ensure his personal security from extremists' actions," stating that he and his supporters were receiving threats of "inflicting bodily harm."

---

They convicted the people responsible for the Maiden killings. Found their weapons and everything. A few they imprisoned, until they were traded to Russia in a prisoner exchange, while the remainder fled and remain in Russia having been granted passports and citizenship.

---

That trial was a sham for any number of reasons. The majority of wounded protesters testified that they were shot from Maidan-controlled areas or saw snipers there. A minority believed that they were shot by police, but in most cases their testimony was inconsistent with video and forensic evidence.

Video evidence and testimony showed that almost all protester deaths happened before police snipers arrived, with orders to stop the mass shooting. It did stop almost immediately, whereupon the police themselves came under fire from Maidan locations.

Even the government concluded that nearly half the victims weren't shot from police positions. In those cases there were simply no charges filed. This may have something to do with the fact that blanket immunity was granted to all Maidan participants, so none of them were ever investigated.

So yeah, the kangaroo court may have convicted some people. But the people responsible for the bloodshed at Maidan? Don't bet on it.

---

They literally found the guns that they ditched in a pond that matched the caliber and ballistics. The location disclosed by one of the participants no less. They had video of the shooters at trial. They only questioned it because some were wearing masks or unclear images. Thats the reason only 48 killings were pinned on the specific officers. What they all had was Berkut police uniforms. Do you even realize how many Berkut police were convicted beyond the primary Maiden massacre for other beatings and killings, yet have found their way to Russia?

The protesters with arms were the "titushky" that were coordinated by Armen Sarkisyan and were counter protesters to Maiden. He's the guy I posted an article about who was assassinated in Moscow earlier this week.

This false flag madness is straight Russian disinformation and not supported by the actual facts. This was an actual 5 year investigation, and the only frustration from prosecutors was that the suspect/guilty kept getting traded to Russia or given lighter sentences.

---

The investigation produced zero evidence that the Yanukovych government hired titushki or any other third party groups, Russian, Ukrainian, or otherwise to do violence against protesters. Literally not a scrap.

This Sarkisyan story has been flickering around the surface of pro-Ukrainian media for a while, but there's no depth to it. Real reporters deal in details--names, dates, locations. Check your sources, and I'm guessing you won't find any. It's all conclusory statements by journalists and vague quotes from Ukrainian officials (Sarkisyan is "known for" this or "accused of" that).

What I'm saying isn't Russian spin. It's the overwhelming consensus among independent analysts. Even Zelensky admitted there are still questions.

---

You can't be serious Sam. It is straight Russian disinformation or nutball conspiracies, not "independent" analysis. There are a ton of sources, articles, testimony, etc. I just don't think it matters to you. Do they have a smoking gun on Yanukovych's direct involvement? No. In fact, the more likely scenario is he was under pressure from the Russians to suppress the riots, and they let things get out of control. They likely did it through his security chief who was a loyal Russian asset.

It's well known what Sarkisyan did during Maiden. He was always a henchman for Russia and their puppet regime. Obviously made too many enemies judging from the nature of his demise.

And there are still questions because over a hundred people died on those few fateful days in February and answers for only 48 of them have been provided. The search would continue, but the main suspects all fled or have been prisoner exchanged and are under the protection of Russia.

---

BBC is about as far from Russian propaganda as you can get. It's not just that Yanukovych wasn't directly involved. There was no evidence that anyone in the Yanukovych government was involved. And before you cry "Russia," the Ukrainian prosecutor in charge of the Maidan investigation expressly stated that there was no evidence of involvement by the Russian government or Russian snipers, either. What they did find was evidence that at least some of the protesters were killed or wounded by shots fired from the Ukraine Hotel and other Maidan-controlled locations.

There's no reason the Ukrainians couldn't charge people who fled to Russia. In some cases they did. But in most cases no charges were filed because they refused to investigate what the evidence clearly suggested. In fact they were prohibited from doing so. The new government passed a law granting immunity to all Maidan participants, which alone should be enough to cast serious doubt on the trial results.

Many of the key initial findings were also reversed, i.e. falsified, including the ballistic test results you referred to. Dozens of earlier tests showed that ballistics didn't match rifles used by the police. Video footage showed that officers either weren't present or weren't firing at the relevant times. Examination of victims' wounds showed that they were shot from elevated locations and from the back or the side, not from the front at ground level where the Berkut officers were.

What the investigation and trial actually found is completely different from what you're reading in pro-Ukrainian media.

---

I'm sorry Sam, the BBC article and what you're pushing above is sourced by a Canadian professor who's been pushing this false flag angle to anyone who would swallow it. He's been anti-West and pro-Russian from the outset. He's the one, not any courts, that has tried to discredit the ballistics findings, and other important evidentiary pieces. The BBC has had many other articles on the events of Maiden that fit along with the prevailing understanding of what occurred.

And it's well known that the FSB was in Kyiv at the time of the massacres. But unlike you, I'm not even pushing hard the Russians direct involvement the same way you guys glom onto one circumstance to represent a giant integrated conspiracy. If I did, the case wouldn't be as thin as what you guys present as fact on US involvement.

---

I'm well aware that the BBC has published anti-Russian articles. That's what makes their open-mindedness on the topic so significant. Your statement in bold is of course flatly wrong.

Saying that the FSB was present at Maidan is like saying the FBI was present at J6. You're either pushing a conspiracy theory, or you're saying something trivially obvious and without meaning in itself. Take your pick.

sombear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

Zelensky will never step down from power.

Yall really need to understand that both Russia and Ukraine are extremely corrupt, but you've drank the kool aid about Ukraine from media propagandists paid through USAID.

Admitting that Ukraine is corrupt doesn't mean you're a Russian shill or that you're in favor of Russia. You're allowed to dislike both.

---

It's not kool aid. It's just recognizing that there is no comparison between Russia and Ukraine.

One is a friend, the other is an enemy who fights us in every corner of the world economically, politically, intel, and defense.

One is friends with our friends, the other is friends with our enemies - Iran, N Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, China, etc.

One is top 1/3 on the world free press index (and amazingly, improving 2022 to present), the other is near the bottom.

One is one of the most Christian countries in Europe, the other is one of the least.

One has demonstrably reduced corruption (public firings and arrests of even political allies), while the other is more corrupt than ever before.

One is defending its freedom and sovereignty, the other invaded.

One has a democratically elected leader elected in an internationally recognized free and secure election, the other has a dictator who literally murdered political enemies.

One has no oligarch or otherwise billionaire family members, while the other has notorious nepotism.

One has no ties to organized crime, the other has longtime ties to Russian mob.

One has a leader who is not a multi-billionaire, the other's leader is a multi-billionaire through corruption.

One has a leader who is not former KGB, the other has a leader who is former KGB.

As for martial law in Ukraine, it was the right move and was and is supported by all of Ukraine parliament. The people complaining about are not Ukrainians. Rather, it's Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan (who talks a big game but refused to interview Zelensky), and Poso.

---

Let's step inside their illusion for a moment. If both countries are corrupt and in different ways exploitative if not a threat to the Western Order, why would we not WANT them to exhaust themselves in conflict with each other rather than us?

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Zelensky will never step down from power.

Yall really need to understand that both Russia and Ukraine are extremely corrupt, but you've drank the kool aid about Ukraine from media propagandists paid through USAID.

Admitting that Ukraine is corrupt doesn't mean you're a Russian shill or that you're in favor of Russia. You're allowed to dislike both.

---

It's not kool aid. It's just recognizing that there is no comparison between Russia and Ukraine.

One is a friend, the other is an enemy who fights us in every corner of the world economically, politically, intel, and defense.

One is friends with our friends, the other is friends with our enemies - Iran, N Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, China, etc.

One is top 1/3 on the world free press index (and amazingly, improving 2022 to present), the other is near the bottom.

One is one of the most Christian countries in Europe, the other is one of the least.

One has demonstrably reduced corruption (public firings and arrests of even political allies), while the other is more corrupt than ever before.

One is defending its freedom and sovereignty, the other invaded.

One has a democratically elected leader elected in an internationally recognized free and secure election, the other has a dictator who literally murdered political enemies.

One has no oligarch or otherwise billionaire family members, while the other has notorious nepotism.

One has no ties to organized crime, the other has longtime ties to Russian mob.

One has a leader who is not a multi-billionaire, the other's leader is a multi-billionaire through corruption.

One has a leader who is not former KGB, the other has a leader who is former KGB.

As for martial law in Ukraine, it was the right move and was and is supported by all of Ukraine parliament. The people complaining about are not Ukrainians. Rather, it's Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan (who talks a big game but refused to interview Zelensky), and Poso.

---

Well, at least I can say I've had my dose of Uke propaganda for the year…and it's only February!

---

Please be specific. What is untrue?

---

Russia isn't an enemy, it isn't notably unchristian, and it certainly isn't more corrupt than Ukraine. Ukraine isn't free or sovereign, nor is it defending those values. It's a failed satrapy and a livestock farm feeding meat into the grinder of America's war against an unwanted rival.

---

I don't know how you can say Russia is not an enemy. We are on different sides of most major political, economic, and military issues/disputes worldwide, from local trade wars to UN votes and everything in between. Our intel communities, in significant part, are structured to combat the other. Our key friends and allies are polar opposites. We support capitalism and democracy; Russia mostly supports socialists/communists/dictators. We have been opposite sides of proxy wars. I could go on and on. Perhaps we can argue it should not be this way, but we cannot ignore reality.

As for Christianity, in Russia 60% identify as Christians. 12% attend church at least once a month. 16% are highly religious. In Ukraine 85% identify as Christian, 36% attend church at least monthly, and 35% are "highly religious." There is preliminary data suggesting these numbers have increased. In Russia, if you are not Orthodox, you are viewed with suspicion, and in many cases, far worse. You must register with the government and allow "visits." Anecdotally, I've seen first-hand how non-Ortho Christians live in fear and worship in secret.

Corruption. There basically are 3 international indexes/ranking. In the two indexes - where the higher the score, the better:
Russia is 22 and 28
Ukraine is 33 and 35
In the TI ranking, Russia is 141; Ukraine is 104.
As or more importantly, Ukraine has improved in all three. Analysts have specifically lauded Ukraine's post-Maidan anti-corruption measures started by Poroshenko and continued under Zelensky. Anecdotally, Zelensky has fired and/or arrested key allies ("even friends") for corruption. Ukraine has made major progress in corruption relative to its gas industry.

Notably, nepotism is a separate issue, and Russia (Putin in particular) is notorious for nepotism in government and business.

sombear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Got a feeling yall hate Trump.

‼️🇷🇺🇺🇸 "They(Ukraine) may be Russians someday, or they may not be. Anyways I want our money back"

– US President, Donald Trump

Hahaha, what a statement, the Ukrainian media is crying at the moment. pic.twitter.com/miqdtJeHt4

— Spetsnaℤ 007 🇷🇺 (@Alex_Oloyede2) February 11, 2025

BTW, there's going to be a territory swap as part of the peace deal…which could have happened from the beginning but we allowed hundreds of thousands of VERY young men to die. Congrats.

---

I actually commend Trump. He's making crazy statements about both sides. That's what he does.

I told anyone who would listen that there was zero chance Trump would pull Ukraine funding. He knows how important it is.

He'll continue to say crazy things, and hopefully he'll help reach a deal.

No, it could NOT have happened from the beginning. Russia demanded far more.

---

[url=https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/12/politics/putin-trump-phone-call/index.html][/url]
President Donald Trump said negotiations to end the Ukraine war will start "immediately" after holding a "lengthy and highly productive" telephone call with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday morning.

The call, which is the first known conversation between the presidents since Trump assumed office last month, came as as Trump makes clear to his advisers he wants to bring the Ukraine conflict to a swift end.[url=https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/12/politics/putin-trump-phone-call/index.html][/url]

BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's OVER!

**** you, Trey, whiterock, and others who pushed this bull**** for the last 4 years!

Trump is going to take Ukrainian minerals as payment for the money we already sent them under Biden... NOT to continue wasting even more money on a lost cause in an asinine agreement.

The only tragedy in all this is you cowardly "Slava Ukraini" brainlets sat on your asses promoting this war and never had the balls to join the Ukrainian Foreign Legion yourselves!

All your numbers are FAKE.

Everything that comes out of Ukraine is FAKE.

95% of Ukrainian media was paid by USAID.

You are either in on the corruption, in which case I hope you meet a gruesome demise, or you are a useful idiot lapping up the propaganda.

Russia has a Christian Orthodox leader.

Ukraine does not.

That decisively ends the debate for me over which country is more Christian.

Damn it feels good to at least end some of the bull*****..

**** You Zelensky!

**** You Ukraine!

And most of all **** all the big government, warhawk "Americans" in this thread who supported stealing money so they could enrich themselves and a bunch of foreigners at the expense of their fellow Americans!

Sam, I just want to congratulate you!

You have been on the right side of this issue from the very beginning!

Take a victory lap on these morons!

The Russian have never been our enemy.

The enemy has always been in our own backyard I just pray we can dismantle this corrupt government and restore what was lost without another civil war in my lifetime.

The_barBEARian said:

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All your numbers are FAKE.

Everything that comes out of Ukraine is FAKE.

95% of Ukrainian media was paid by USAID.

You are either in on the corruption, in which case I hope you meet a gruesome demise, or you are a useful idiot lapping up the propaganda.

Russia has a Christian Orthodox leader.

Ukraine does not.

That decisively ends the debate for me over which country is more Christian.

---

You are not even functionally regarded.

trey3216 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

All your numbers are FAKE.

Everything that comes out of Ukraine is FAKE.

95% of Ukrainian media was paid by USAID.

You are either in on the corruption, in which case I hope you meet a gruesome demise, or you are a useful idiot lapping up the propaganda.

Russia has a Christian Orthodox leader.

Ukraine does not.

That decisively ends the debate for me over which country is more Christian.

---

You are not even functionally regarded.

---

You mad *****?

it's over!

You lost!

America won!

The_barBEARian said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

All your numbers are FAKE.

Everything that comes out of Ukraine is FAKE.

95% of Ukrainian media was paid by USAID.

You are either in on the corruption, in which case I hope you meet a gruesome demise, or you are a useful idiot lapping up the propaganda.

Russia has a Christian Orthodox leader.

Ukraine does not.

That decisively ends the debate for me over which country is more Christian.

---

You are not even functionally regarded.

---

You mad *****?

it's over!

You lost!

America won!

---

I'm not mad about anything other than chasing people around trying to get them to sign paperwork.

Nothing's over right now. The terms that will be presented to Russia to end this thing will not suffice their desires, so this thing will continue for a little while longer. Just watch.

Of course America won. We got to take billions of dollars in annual upkeep on mothballed equipment and it was used to kill hundreds of thousands of fetal alcohol Russians...like it was meant to.

And you'd never say anything like you're saying via keyboard to my face you fat chuckle*****. Have fun railing on about your **** while you get your checks from Big Pharma...funded by USAID.

trey3216 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

All your numbers are FAKE.

Everything that comes out of Ukraine is FAKE.

95% of Ukrainian media was paid by USAID.

You are either in on the corruption, in which case I hope you meet a gruesome demise, or you are a useful idiot lapping up the propaganda.

Russia has a Christian Orthodox leader.

Ukraine does not.

That decisively ends the debate for me over which country is more Christian.

---

You are not even functionally regarded.

---

You mad *****?

it's over!

You lost!

America won!

---

I'm not mad about anything other than chasing people around trying to get them to sign paperwork.

Nothing's over right now. The terms that will be presented to Russia to end this thing will not suffice their desires, so this thing will continue for a little while longer. Just watch.

Of course America won. We got to take billions of dollars in annual upkeep on mothballed equipment and it was used to kill hundreds of thousands of fetal alcohol Russians...like it was meant to.

And you'd never say anything like you're saying via keyboard to my face you fat chuckle*****. Have fun railing on about your **** while you get your checks from Big Pharma...funded by USAID.

---

"You no say mean thing to me face..."

Spoken like the great intellectual you claim to be

The most contentious terms have already been leaked.

Russia will keep Crimea along with Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts.

Ukraine will not join NATO and if European countries chose to send troops into Ukraine, they would be considered a non-NATO mission and they would not be covered under Article 5.

Zelensky will NEVER receive nuclear weapons.

Ukraine will pay back American support under Biden through the confiscation of it's rare earth minerals.

You sure are a sensitive little guy...

This is a day about ending conflict so in that same spirit and to safeguard your fragile ego, I agree to never call you a ***** to your face.

The_barBEARian said:

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You sure are a sensitive little guy...

This is a day about ending conflict so in that same spirit and to safeguard your fragile ego, I agree to never call you a ***** to your face.

---

Hope USAID doesn't interrupt your paychecks….Lord knows unemployment won't cover your grocery bill



I guess you could always ask the good Christian Uncle Vlad to help you out

Trump is going to end this war.

And no one will be happy with the terms.

Similar to when Theodore Roosevelt ended the Russia-Japanese war.

And there were riots in Tokyo.

trey3216 said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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You sure are a sensitive little guy...

This is a day about ending conflict so in that same spirit and to safeguard your fragile ego, I agree to never call you a ***** to your face.

---

Hope USAID doesn't interrupt your paychecks….Lord knows unemployment won't cover your grocery bill



I guess you could always ask the good Christian Uncle Vlad to help you out

---

It's the white man's burden to lead by example for our Italian brothers in Christ, so I'm going to stop the frivolous insults and I hope you have a blessed day Trey!

The_barBEARian said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

You sure are a sensitive little guy...

This is a day about ending conflict so in that same spirit and to safeguard your fragile ego, I agree to never call you a ***** to your face.

---

Hope USAID doesn't interrupt your paychecks….Lord knows unemployment won't cover your grocery bill



I guess you could always ask the good Christian Uncle Vlad to help you out

---

It's the white man's burden to lead by example for our Italian brothers in Christ, so I'm going to stop the frivolous insults and I hope you have a blessed day Trey!

---

Your biggest white man's burden is the punishment you dole on your shoes.

🚨 pic.twitter.com/tqlnk5tJPB

— Trump War Room (@TrumpWarRoom) February 12, 2025

Sucks Russia not being at International hockey tournaments like four nations. F politics, Russia has some damn good hockey players.

KaiBear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

All your numbers are FAKE.

Everything that comes out of Ukraine is FAKE.

95% of Ukrainian media was paid by USAID.

You are either in on the corruption, in which case I hope you meet a gruesome demise, or you are a useful idiot lapping up the propaganda.

Russia has a Christian Orthodox leader.

Ukraine does not.

That decisively ends the debate for me over which country is more Christian.

---

You are not even functionally regarded.

---

You mad *****?

it's over!

You lost!

America won!

---

I'm not mad about anything other than chasing people around trying to get them to sign paperwork.

Nothing's over right now. The terms that will be presented to Russia to end this thing will not suffice their desires, so this thing will continue for a little while longer. Just watch.

Of course America won. We got to take billions of dollars in annual upkeep on mothballed equipment and it was used to kill hundreds of thousands of fetal alcohol Russians...like it was meant to.

And you'd never say anything like you're saying via keyboard to my face you fat chuckle*****. Have fun railing on about your **** while you get your checks from Big Pharma...funded by USAID.

---

"You no say mean thing to me face..."

Spoken like the great intellectual you claim to be

The most contentious terms have already been leaked.

Russia will keep Crimea along with Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts.

Ukraine will not join NATO and if European countries chose to send troops into Ukraine, they would be considered a non-NATO mission and they would not be covered under Article 5.

Zelensky will NEVER receive nuclear weapons.

Ukraine will pay back American support under Biden through the confiscation of its rare earth minerals.

---

A. Zelensky will be forced to leave Ukraine within one year of any peace treaty. Guessing he will go to Israel but almost any country could be a possibility.
B. Ukraine will never be in NATO.
C. The US will receive only a small token of Ukrainian rare earth minerals. The other billions worth of US taxpayer's money is gone forever.
D.Billions of US dollars ended up in the pockets of private individuals. Both Ukrainian and American.
E. Ukraine will fade back into the traditional Russian sphere of influence within 6 years.
F. Hundreds of thousands of lives have been lost, millions more irreparably wounded or displaced……trillions of dollars lost in damages and lost productivity……..

all due to the Biden administration's continual foreign policy blunders. Worst in US history.

---

This is a pretty sober (and accurate) analysis of what will actually happen.

But at least it's over now and all the dirtbags who caused runaway inflation and poverty in this country through their support of this ******ed war lost.

They have been trying to gaslight us into believing Russia is our greatest enemy and the biggest threat to our way of life for the last four years.

Inflation and our burgeoning national debt are the only real threat to this nation and it's citizens. The people causing this to happen also call themselves "Americans" and they are the biggest obstacle to your happiness and prosperity...

About half the population of this country are part of the problem either intentionally or unintentionally... and what I like most about Trump is he doesn't really play this game with his adversaries and say things like we are all Americans at the end of the day... No... you have made it abundantly clear you seek my destruction and the defilement of everything I hold dear. I do not consider you my fellow countrymen... you are my greatest enemy and I hope you lose and fail at everything you do.

Surrender Trump is a new one.

ATL Bear said:

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Surrender Trump is a new one.

---

This is what victory looks like.

I told you this would happen November 5th, 2024.

Promises made, promise kept!

MAGA!

The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Surrender Trump is a new one.

---

This is what victory for Putin looks like.

I told you this would happen November 5th, 2024.

Promises made, promise kept!

MRGA!

---

FIFY. Congrats!

ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Surrender Trump is a new one.

---

This is what victory for Putin looks like.

I told you this would happen November 5th, 2024.

Promises made, promise kept!

MRGA!

---

FIFY. Congrats!

---

Listen ATL... I know the lucrative defense contracts and foreign aid gravy train is coming to an unsatisfying end... but I have a position open in my office for someone proficient with a photocopy machine and excellent file storing skills.... its grueling and monotonous work... and the pay is meager... but at least you can go home at night with a clean conscious knowing you aren't bankrupting your fellow Americans for your own personal enrichment

ATL Bear said:

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Surrender Trump is a new one.

---

IF repeat IF Trump succeeds in bringing a truce before Ukraine's defensive lines irrevocably crumble……

comments like yours will be rampant from all sides.

The fact that Ukraine has almost zero chance of regaining most of its lost territory by continuing the war simply doesn't register.

So Trump will be blasted.

By leftists, conservatives, warhawks and especially by Biden and Harris. Whose incredible series of screwups contributed to Putin's unholy invasion.

But IF Trump pulls it off……tens of thousands of lives will be spared.

Maybe millions.


Maybe ours.