Netanyahu said "we are at war,"

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ATL Bear
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Sam Lowry said:

ShooterTX said:

Redbrickbear said:

OsoCoreyell said:

Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Every one of my argument was completely valid.

Anti-Zionism is antisemitism.
[When learning of this vote, many people familiar with Jewish history might have suppressed a sardonic laugh. Anti-Zionism, after all, was a creation of Jews, not their enemies.


Before World War II, Zionism was the most divisive and heatedly debated issue in the Jewish world. Anti-Zionism had left-wing variants and right-wing variants religious variants and secular variants as well as variants in every country where Jews resided. For anyone who knows this history, it is astonishing that, as the resolution would have it, opposition to Zionism has been equated with opposition to Judaism and not only to Judaism, but to hatred of Jews themselves. But this conflation has nothing to do with history. Instead, it is political, and its purpose has been to discredit Israel's opponents as racists.


Race has always been at the heart of the debate. Many anti-Zionists believed the Jews were, in their parlance, "a church." This meant that, although they shared certain beliefs, traditions and affinities with coreligionists in other nations, they nonetheless belonged as fully to their own national communities as anyone else. For them, an American Jew was a Jewish American, just as an Episcopalian American or a Catholic American was an American first of all. They were unwilling to subscribe to any idea suggesting that the Jews were a race, separate and, as the anti-semites would have it, unassimilable. These people did not consider themselves to be in exile, as the Zionists would have it. They considered themselves to be at home. They feared that the insistence on ethnicity or race could open them to the old accusations of double loyalty, undermining attempts to achieve equality.

In fact, anti-Zionist thinking predates Zionism. It emerges from the possibility that first appeared at the end of the 18th century. In 1790, in his famous letter to the Jews of Newport, R.I., George Washington declared that "all possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens."]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/01/02/anti-zionism-antisemitism-israel-jews-came-first/

Anti-Zionism actually has a long intellectual history within the Jewish community itself...
What Anti-Zionists mean in the current reality is that Israel, as a political nation, should be eradicated/terminated.



That would come as quite the surprise to actual Jewish anti-Zionists today.

And not just among some liberal secular Jews.

There are large factions of Hardi Judaism who reject Zionism and have large and growing populations.












There are NO thriving Jewish communities in the Arab nations surrounding Israel.
Which was not the case before the founding of Israel. Perhaps tending to confirm the fears of Jewish anti-Zionists.
Quite the opposite, and there were terrible atrocities performed on Jews by Arabs prior to the establishment of Israel. Heck, disdain of the Jews is in the Quran, and one of Muhammed's earliest acts of violence was the expelling of the Jews from Mecca.
KaiBear
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historian said:

I don't think you know what Zionism or anti-Zionism mean. You are using totally false definitions of both.

Zionism began with Theodore Herzl in 19th century Europe as a response to continuing antisemitism. Simply put, it was the desire of Jewish people to return to their ancient homeland, the modern state of Israel. It was given to them by God (His covenant with Abraham and his descendants stated repeatedly in the book of Genesis) & was intended to be forever. After WWII (& the Holocaust), the dream was realized with the creation of the modern state of Israel immediately after the British mandate ended.

The Israelis confirmed that act by defeating all their enemies, the surrounding Arab states, in their war for independence. They repeatedly affirmed that position by repeatedly defeating their enemies again & again most notably in 1967, 1973, the intifadas, etc. today Zionism is easily equated with the existence of Israel & support for its survival. There is no need to obfuscate it or make it more complicated.

Anti-Zionism was and is the opposition to that dream & its achievement. In the modern context this means opposition to the state of Israel, which means seeking its end. There is no rational way to interpret that other than the genocidal atrocities like those begun on October 7.


Informative post.

Thank you.
Redbrickbear
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Sam Lowry
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ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ShooterTX said:

Redbrickbear said:

OsoCoreyell said:

Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Every one of my argument was completely valid.

Anti-Zionism is antisemitism.
[When learning of this vote, many people familiar with Jewish history might have suppressed a sardonic laugh. Anti-Zionism, after all, was a creation of Jews, not their enemies.


Before World War II, Zionism was the most divisive and heatedly debated issue in the Jewish world. Anti-Zionism had left-wing variants and right-wing variants religious variants and secular variants as well as variants in every country where Jews resided. For anyone who knows this history, it is astonishing that, as the resolution would have it, opposition to Zionism has been equated with opposition to Judaism and not only to Judaism, but to hatred of Jews themselves. But this conflation has nothing to do with history. Instead, it is political, and its purpose has been to discredit Israel's opponents as racists.


Race has always been at the heart of the debate. Many anti-Zionists believed the Jews were, in their parlance, "a church." This meant that, although they shared certain beliefs, traditions and affinities with coreligionists in other nations, they nonetheless belonged as fully to their own national communities as anyone else. For them, an American Jew was a Jewish American, just as an Episcopalian American or a Catholic American was an American first of all. They were unwilling to subscribe to any idea suggesting that the Jews were a race, separate and, as the anti-semites would have it, unassimilable. These people did not consider themselves to be in exile, as the Zionists would have it. They considered themselves to be at home. They feared that the insistence on ethnicity or race could open them to the old accusations of double loyalty, undermining attempts to achieve equality.

In fact, anti-Zionist thinking predates Zionism. It emerges from the possibility that first appeared at the end of the 18th century. In 1790, in his famous letter to the Jews of Newport, R.I., George Washington declared that "all possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens."]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/01/02/anti-zionism-antisemitism-israel-jews-came-first/

Anti-Zionism actually has a long intellectual history within the Jewish community itself...
What Anti-Zionists mean in the current reality is that Israel, as a political nation, should be eradicated/terminated.



That would come as quite the surprise to actual Jewish anti-Zionists today.

And not just among some liberal secular Jews.

There are large factions of Hardi Judaism who reject Zionism and have large and growing populations.












There are NO thriving Jewish communities in the Arab nations surrounding Israel.
Which was not the case before the founding of Israel. Perhaps tending to confirm the fears of Jewish anti-Zionists.
Quite the opposite, and there were terrible atrocities performed on Jews by Arabs prior to the establishment of Israel. Heck, disdain of the Jews is in the Quran, and one of Muhammed's earliest acts of violence was the expelling of the Jews from Mecca.
There were thriving Jewish communities across the Arab world. They suffered some persecution, as they did in Europe and elsewhere, but Arabs weren't trying to drive them into the sea.
FLBear5630
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Redbrickbear said:


You guys say they are crazy, but Pelosi actually gets results! She impeached Trump, twice. Trump is indicted. Under her, the Dems accomplished everything they set out to accomplish. She even got the Green New Deal into policy. I would think twice making fun of her, she may be crazy but she is effective as hell. Much more effective than ANY GOP member of Congress. If I need someone to negotiate a deal or get something done, I would take her over anyone in the HOR. Name someone more effective? GOP needs to stop making fun of people that are kicking their ass. This is why I became an Independent!
GrowlTowel
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FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:


You guys say they are crazy, but Pelosi actually gets results! She impeached Trump, twice. Trump is indicted. Under her, the Dems accomplished everything they set out to accomplish. She even got the Green New Deal into policy. I would think twice making fun of her, she may be crazy but she is effective as hell. Much more effective than ANY GOP member of Congress. If I need someone to negotiate a deal or get something done, I would take her over anyone in the HOR. Name someone more effective? GOP needs to stop making fun of people that are kicking their ass. This is why I became an Independent!



Irony. Pelosi is effective because she is uncompromising and extreme in her beliefs. Yet you advocate for Republicans to take a more centrist and compromising position - thus your love of Haley. Now you claim to have become an independent because the Republicans don't have a leader as extreme and uncompromising as Pelosi.
KaiBear
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FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:


You guys say they are crazy, but Pelosi actually gets results! She impeached Trump, twice. Trump is indicted. Under her, the Dems accomplished everything they set out to accomplish. She even got the Green New Deal into policy. I would think twice making fun of her, she may be crazy but she is effective as hell. Much more effective than ANY GOP member of Congress. If I need someone to negotiate a deal or get something done, I would take her over anyone in the HOR. Name someone more effective? GOP needs to stop making fun of people that are kicking their ass. This is why I became an Independent!


Accurate assessment.

Unfortunate for our country…….but accurate.
Redbrickbear
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FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:


You guys say they are crazy, but Pelosi actually gets results! She impeached Trump, twice. Trump is indicted. Under her, the Dems accomplished everything they set out to accomplish. She even got the Green New Deal into policy. I would think twice making fun of her, she may be crazy but she is effective as hell. Much more effective than ANY GOP member of Congress…!


For the record I have never called her crazy…she is a very successful political operator and the Left in America is very successful at getting their program enacted.

I agree that "their crazy" is just a cope

And I agree that the GOP is dysfunctional…because fundamentally all it's leaders want to do is cut taxes and fund wars in the 3rd world
FLBear5630
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GrowlTowel said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:


You guys say they are crazy, but Pelosi actually gets results! She impeached Trump, twice. Trump is indicted. Under her, the Dems accomplished everything they set out to accomplish. She even got the Green New Deal into policy. I would think twice making fun of her, she may be crazy but she is effective as hell. Much more effective than ANY GOP member of Congress. If I need someone to negotiate a deal or get something done, I would take her over anyone in the HOR. Name someone more effective? GOP needs to stop making fun of people that are kicking their ass. This is why I became an Independent!



Irony. Pelosi is effective because she is uncompromising and extreme in her beliefs. Yet you advocate for Republicans to take a more centrist and compromising position - thus your love of Haley. Now you claim to have become an independent because the Republicans don't have a leader as extreme and uncompromising as Pelosi.


I left because GOP talk and that's about it. I said GOP needs to stop making fun of people kicking their ass.

As for Haley? Pelosi kicked Trump's ass up and down the street. Let's see how Haley does against the Dems. To go back to Trump to eatch the Dems kick his ass again is too much to bear. Gimme Haley any day. Haley wins.
historian
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KaiBear said:

historian said:

I don't think you know what Zionism or anti-Zionism mean. You are using totally false definitions of both.

Zionism began with Theodore Herzl in 19th century Europe as a response to continuing antisemitism. Simply put, it was the desire of Jewish people to return to their ancient homeland, the modern state of Israel. It was given to them by God (His covenant with Abraham and his descendants stated repeatedly in the book of Genesis) & was intended to be forever. After WWII (& the Holocaust), the dream was realized with the creation of the modern state of Israel immediately after the British mandate ended.

The Israelis confirmed that act by defeating all their enemies, the surrounding Arab states, in their war for independence. They repeatedly affirmed that position by repeatedly defeating their enemies again & again most notably in 1967, 1973, the intifadas, etc. today Zionism is easily equated with the existence of Israel & support for its survival. There is no need to obfuscate it or make it more complicated.

Anti-Zionism was and is the opposition to that dream & its achievement. In the modern context this means opposition to the state of Israel, which means seeking its end. There is no rational way to interpret that other than the genocidal atrocities like those begun on October 7.


Informative post.

Thank you.

You're welcome!
historian
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The_barBEARian said:

It is in *my*, and most likely yours too, best interest to drill baby, drill! And become energy independent. Which North America is more than capable of.

America's involvement in the middle east is only beneficial to Israeli lobbyists and Zionist Jews. If you are one of those two things, I understand you reticence to alter our suicidal foreign policy.



First paragraph is spot on. I agree 100%.

Second paragraph is foolishly isolationist and myopic on international relations. Arguably it is also antisemitism.
The_barBEARian
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Your foolish globalism and expansionist international policies could be argued as anti-American.
historian
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Who said anything about expansionism? And the only globalism I advocate is friendly relations with as many countries as possible, but cautious secure relations with those that are clearly our enemies.

The Roman's had the idea of "peace through strength" and it worked for centuries. A similar idea worked for the US for most of the past century. The notable exceptions were those times we were led by weak men who were, arguably, anti-American. Ironically, Trump was pretty effective at disengaging the US from some foreign entanglements in an orderly, safe manner.
ATL Bear
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Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ShooterTX said:

Redbrickbear said:

OsoCoreyell said:

Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Every one of my argument was completely valid.

Anti-Zionism is antisemitism.
[When learning of this vote, many people familiar with Jewish history might have suppressed a sardonic laugh. Anti-Zionism, after all, was a creation of Jews, not their enemies.


Before World War II, Zionism was the most divisive and heatedly debated issue in the Jewish world. Anti-Zionism had left-wing variants and right-wing variants religious variants and secular variants as well as variants in every country where Jews resided. For anyone who knows this history, it is astonishing that, as the resolution would have it, opposition to Zionism has been equated with opposition to Judaism and not only to Judaism, but to hatred of Jews themselves. But this conflation has nothing to do with history. Instead, it is political, and its purpose has been to discredit Israel's opponents as racists.


Race has always been at the heart of the debate. Many anti-Zionists believed the Jews were, in their parlance, "a church." This meant that, although they shared certain beliefs, traditions and affinities with coreligionists in other nations, they nonetheless belonged as fully to their own national communities as anyone else. For them, an American Jew was a Jewish American, just as an Episcopalian American or a Catholic American was an American first of all. They were unwilling to subscribe to any idea suggesting that the Jews were a race, separate and, as the anti-semites would have it, unassimilable. These people did not consider themselves to be in exile, as the Zionists would have it. They considered themselves to be at home. They feared that the insistence on ethnicity or race could open them to the old accusations of double loyalty, undermining attempts to achieve equality.

In fact, anti-Zionist thinking predates Zionism. It emerges from the possibility that first appeared at the end of the 18th century. In 1790, in his famous letter to the Jews of Newport, R.I., George Washington declared that "all possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens."]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/01/02/anti-zionism-antisemitism-israel-jews-came-first/

Anti-Zionism actually has a long intellectual history within the Jewish community itself...
What Anti-Zionists mean in the current reality is that Israel, as a political nation, should be eradicated/terminated.



That would come as quite the surprise to actual Jewish anti-Zionists today.

And not just among some liberal secular Jews.

There are large factions of Hardi Judaism who reject Zionism and have large and growing populations.












There are NO thriving Jewish communities in the Arab nations surrounding Israel.
Which was not the case before the founding of Israel. Perhaps tending to confirm the fears of Jewish anti-Zionists.
Quite the opposite, and there were terrible atrocities performed on Jews by Arabs prior to the establishment of Israel. Heck, disdain of the Jews is in the Quran, and one of Muhammed's earliest acts of violence was the expelling of the Jews from Mecca.
There were thriving Jewish communities across the Arab world. They suffered some persecution, as they did in Europe and elsewhere, but Arabs weren't trying to drive them into the sea.
Yes they sent them to Europe so they could deal with them. If only they'd go back to being the good obedient Jews paying the Jizya as second class citizens under the thumb of the Ottomans.
Harrison Bergeron
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ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ATL Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

ShooterTX said:

Redbrickbear said:

OsoCoreyell said:

Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Every one of my argument was completely valid.

Anti-Zionism is antisemitism.
[When learning of this vote, many people familiar with Jewish history might have suppressed a sardonic laugh. Anti-Zionism, after all, was a creation of Jews, not their enemies.


Before World War II, Zionism was the most divisive and heatedly debated issue in the Jewish world. Anti-Zionism had left-wing variants and right-wing variants religious variants and secular variants as well as variants in every country where Jews resided. For anyone who knows this history, it is astonishing that, as the resolution would have it, opposition to Zionism has been equated with opposition to Judaism and not only to Judaism, but to hatred of Jews themselves. But this conflation has nothing to do with history. Instead, it is political, and its purpose has been to discredit Israel's opponents as racists.


Race has always been at the heart of the debate. Many anti-Zionists believed the Jews were, in their parlance, "a church." This meant that, although they shared certain beliefs, traditions and affinities with coreligionists in other nations, they nonetheless belonged as fully to their own national communities as anyone else. For them, an American Jew was a Jewish American, just as an Episcopalian American or a Catholic American was an American first of all. They were unwilling to subscribe to any idea suggesting that the Jews were a race, separate and, as the anti-semites would have it, unassimilable. These people did not consider themselves to be in exile, as the Zionists would have it. They considered themselves to be at home. They feared that the insistence on ethnicity or race could open them to the old accusations of double loyalty, undermining attempts to achieve equality.

In fact, anti-Zionist thinking predates Zionism. It emerges from the possibility that first appeared at the end of the 18th century. In 1790, in his famous letter to the Jews of Newport, R.I., George Washington declared that "all possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens."]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/01/02/anti-zionism-antisemitism-israel-jews-came-first/

Anti-Zionism actually has a long intellectual history within the Jewish community itself...
What Anti-Zionists mean in the current reality is that Israel, as a political nation, should be eradicated/terminated.



That would come as quite the surprise to actual Jewish anti-Zionists today.

And not just among some liberal secular Jews.

There are large factions of Hardi Judaism who reject Zionism and have large and growing populations.












There are NO thriving Jewish communities in the Arab nations surrounding Israel.
Which was not the case before the founding of Israel. Perhaps tending to confirm the fears of Jewish anti-Zionists.
Quite the opposite, and there were terrible atrocities performed on Jews by Arabs prior to the establishment of Israel. Heck, disdain of the Jews is in the Quran, and one of Muhammed's earliest acts of violence was the expelling of the Jews from Mecca.
There were thriving Jewish communities across the Arab world. They suffered some persecution, as they did in Europe and elsewhere, but Arabs weren't trying to drive them into the sea.
Yes they sent them to Europe so they could deal with them. If only they'd go back to being the good obedient Jews paying the Jizya as second class citizens under the thumb of the Ottomans.
Yeah, but they're "brown" so they get a free pass. That's why the butt pirates in the U.S. pretend Arabs love the gheys.
boognish_bear
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TenBears
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boognish_bear said:




Surprising they aren't already there.
J.R.
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historian said:

Redbrickbear said:

J.R. said:

KaiBear said:

J.R. said:

The_barBEARian said:

FLBear5630 said:

The_barBEARian said:

Just because it's small relative to all the other more useful spending doesn't excuse the fact that it is completely 100% extraneous, inane waste of money that provides negligible benefit to the average tax payer.

So far your argument for continuing aid to Israel can be summed up with: "They're my friend!"

So, give us your foreign policy? Where do we fit in the world? Is there anyone that the US should help?

No foreign aid. No foreign wars. Fair Trade.

America first. American citizens first. And American tax payers really, really come first.
that is the most uninformed take I have heard lately. What rock did you crawl from? Let me guess, you are an angry white dude in his 20s how has not a lot of work experience and spends too much time in front of Fox News.


No foreign wars , no foreign aid is such a controversial statement as to warrant such a response JR ?

Wanting to help American citizens first suggest one lives under a rock ?

Care to educate me on your rationale ?
"No foreign aid" is just stupid. We are the leader of the free world (for now as we are shrinking). There are geo-political reasons for aid.

And there are very good reasons NOT to give unaccountable foreign nations tax payer cash from the American poeple.

I would love to see what we are actually getting for all that money spent.

Do we think Pakistan has for instance actually used that money for good?

That is a very good point: all of our aid should be with complete accountability and we should only allow the recipient to use it for approved purposes. For example, aid to Ukraine should only go to aiding their war effort directly, not to pensions, normal government operations, Zelensky's Swiss bank account, etc.

It should all be audited and held to the strictest standards. So should the rest of the federal budget. I suspect if they did that they would found clear evidence of fraud and abuse in almost every government agency and quite a few officials would earn a few years prison time. This is to foreign aid, the Pentagon, and everything else.

Pakistan harbored Osama bin Laden for quite a long time.
I am totally down with all kinds of audits. Makes entirely too much sense.
boognish_bear
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nein51
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KC135 and RC135 are housed in numerous places. This likely means 6 more/additional units. Used to be an RC135/KC135 HQ in Athens. Now RAF Mildenhall (KC135R/RC135) and others in supporting roles in Incirlik (KC135R -US and Turk, F16C/D), Aviano (F16C/D) and Torrejon (EF18-B)
historian
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This brings back memories. I lived near March as a kid because my Dad was stationed there. He was with the KC-135's.
historian
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TenBears said:

boognish_bear said:




Surprising they aren't already there.

That would have required some foresight and intelligence from our leaders. Those are qualities sorely lacking throughout the current regime.
historian
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Which is probably why it won't happen! I have come to expect very little in the way of intelligent or beneficial policies from our government, especially when led by the fascists.
Doc Holliday
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boognish_bear
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historian
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Not very reassuring. But nothing Biden & his minions do is comforting. His fake presidency has been one disaster after another.
boognish_bear
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boognish_bear
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Redbrickbear
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Realitybites
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About those tankers.

The KC-135 is based on the Boeing 707. It was first flight tested in 1957 by General Curtis LeMay. The last KC-135 was delivered to the Air Force in 1965. That means the *newest* KC-135 airframe is 59 years old. While they've been re-engined with high bypass engines, metal fatigue is a silent, progressive enemy.

The KC-46A based on the 767 was supposed to be the next generation tanker, but it's had issues from the start despite being based on a well proven platform.

Inside Boeing's Plans To Fix Its Troubled KC-46A Tanker

"EVERETT, Wash. In the wake of Boeing's KC-46A Pegasus topping $7 billion in losses, company officials have been eager to stem the tide of the tanker's long-running woes and resolve several critical issues that pose risks to its operations.

The Pegasus currently has six category 1 deficiencies, Air Force terminology for problems that could cause loss of an aircraft, injury, or death. Spending money to fix those issues has helped drive Boeing's staggering losses on the program..."

Perhaps that money that is being spent on foreign misadventures would be better spent at home. Boeing's quality/DEI issues go beyond the 737 and affect its entire product line (including the 787).
Cobretti
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historian
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The fascists are experts at projection. They do it all the time.
Cobretti
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Cobretti
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Cobretti
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