historian said:

---

Those two countries might not be the success stories you think they are. They have all the same problems of overbearing governments, ruinous socialist policies, too many immigrants not assimilating, etc. look at the farmers protests in the Netherlands and now in Germany too for an illustration.

---

Sure, ideology can change.

And the Dutch and Germans governments are increasingly headed in a climate extremism way.


Of course so is ours

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

whiterock said:

---

.
Geez, talk about gifts. What the heck are the mullah's thinking attacking a Chinese client state?

---

"The missile strikes were part of Iran's sweeping reprisals across Syria, Iraqi Kurdistan and Pakistan, designed to exact revenge for a suicide bombing mounted by Isis-K, the Afghan branch of Islamic State, that killed 85 Iranians in the south-eastern city of Kerman on 3 January. Iran claims that Israeli intelligence has been working with Isis-K."

Oh, and there's this.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq

"A revealing light on how we got here has now been shone by a recently declassified secret US intelligence report, written in August 2012, which uncannily predicts and effectively welcomes the prospect of a "Salafist principality" in eastern Syria and an al-Qaida-controlled Islamic state in Syria and Iraq. In stark contrast to western claims at the time, the Defense Intelligence Agency document identifies al-Qaida in Iraq (which became Isis) and fellow Salafists as the "major forces driving the insurgency in Syria" and states that "western countries, the Gulf states and Turkey" were supporting the opposition's efforts to take control of eastern Syria."

So we use puppet forces to carry out a bombing in Iran and poke the bear, Iran strikes back and it isn't quite the random gift it might appear to be. Try and exploit the Sunni-Shia divide to prevent Islamic unity around opposition to Israel's actions in Gaza and if the deep state can get World War 3 kicked off before November, all the better.

Washington D.C. - "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

---

Huh? There are much worse. I would say DC is in top 10% of governments

---

That is probably an indictment of how many crappy governments (and counties) are on earth…and not a ringing endorsement of our rulers

DC is sitting on a basically unbelievable position ruling over a vast continental spanning country of endless raw materials, human capital, the best river connected farm land on earth, and all of it protected by the massive oceans.

---

Or, maybe your expectations of what is possible with Governments is unrealistic in practice.

---

Go look at the Netherlands (size of Vermont) and you can see what a non-corrupt and serious government can do....and has to do to be successful.

Denmark is up there as well.

Two Germanic states that have basically nothing to work with and basically crap land.

---

I have been to both for work. You would NEVER approve of the policies they have to achieve their goals. They both use economics, so if you are well off you still get to do what you want. Take public transportation. Everyone raves about Danish transit and bike usage. They price you out of driving. VAT, 100% car tax, $6 a liter fuel, insurance, camera enforcement, tolls. All that and they still have too many cars in Copenhagen and they had to triple parking fees.

By the way, true story. In Copenhagen we heard a traffic engineer tell us their safety stats. We called BS. So, asked him to go for a beer. 10 beers later, he filled us in on the economic constraints used by the Government. You think those people riding Bikes want to ride bikes to work in January? Hell, no. They can't afford not to. But, if you have enough money, you can live anyway you want.

Wife's friend, he stayed on their Dairy Farm when she was a kid. They denied a knee replacement at 82. Why? Too old. Better use of resources on the young. People are flying to the US to get cancer treatment because under the Danish Health System, they determine who to spend the resources on. You may get it, 6 months or 2 years later, depend on the formula.

You and this Board would NEVER stand for a Danish style of Government.

historian said:

---

The Palestinians had a ceasefire with Israel on October 6. They have no one but themselves to blame for what follows from their act of complete barbarism.

---

And they could stop it any time by returning the hostages and surrendering its leaders.

U.S. forces on Friday morning conducted “3 successful self-defense strikes against Houthi targets in Yemen,” NSC’s John Kirby says.

“This is the fourth preemptive action the U.S. military has taken in past week against Houthi missile launchers that were ready to launch attacks.” pic.twitter.com/nax7nQqiAp

— The Recount (@therecount) January 19, 2024

Biden spoke to Netanyahu for the first time in nearly a month today and discussed the war in Gaza and regional escalation.

The last time they spoke was Dec. 23, when a frustrated Biden ended the call by saying the "conversation is over" and hanging up.
https://t.co/p7jkfrMetb

— Axios (@axios) January 19, 2024

boognish_bear said:

---

Biden spoke to Netanyahu for the first time in nearly a month today and discussed the war in Gaza and regional escalation.

The last time they spoke was Dec. 23, when a frustrated Biden ended the call by saying the "conversation is over" and hanging up.
https://t.co/p7jkfrMetb

— Axios (@axios) January 19, 2024

---

I'm pretty sure it ended with "Where's my pudding!?"

boognish_bear said:

---

can’t remember the last time a strong ally of the united states as publicly and emphatically rebuked the us president as netanyahu’s refusal to consider a two state solution.

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) January 19, 2024

---

You want to know who doesn't want a two state solution? The Palestinians. They have been offered a 2 state solution no less than 4 times and have solidly rejected it every time in favor of hanging on to their past grievances and desire to destory Israel. There is no two state solution - only two-state wishful thinking by the deeply unserious Biden Administration.

OsoCoreyell said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

can’t remember the last time a strong ally of the united states as publicly and emphatically rebuked the us president as netanyahu’s refusal to consider a two state solution.

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) January 19, 2024

---

You want to know who doesn't want a two state solution? The Palestinians. They have been offered a 2 state solution no less than 4 times and have solidly rejected it every time in favor of hanging on to their past grievances and desire to destory Israel.

---

I think it is farther back in the tread but its been shown that Israel never was that interested in giving them much a deal.

At least not since 1948. The deals in the late 90s and early 2000s would have made Palestine give up a lot or not much....sovereignty on paper but not in fact.

[The text did not promise or even mention an independent Palestinian state at the end of the transition period. The Palestinians believed that in return for giving up their claim to 78% of historic Palestine, they would gain an independent state in the remaining 22%, with a capital city in Jerusalem. They were to be bitterly disappointed.

The so-called security barrier that Israel has been building on the West Bank since 2002 further encroaches on Palestinian land. Land-grabbing and peace-making do not go together: it is one or the other. Oslo is essentially a land-for-peace deal. By expanding settlements all Israeli governments, Labour as well as Likud, contributed massively to its breakdown.
The rate of settlement growth in the West Bank and Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem is staggering. At the end of 1993 there were 115,700 Israeli settlers in the occupied territories. Their number doubled during the following decade.
Today the number of Israeli settlers on the West Bank exceeds 350,000. There are an additional 300,000 Jews living in settlements across the pre-1967 border in East Jerusalem. Thousands more settlement homes are planned or under construction. Despite his best efforts, John Kerry, the US secretary of state, failed to get the Netanyahu government to accept a settlement freeze as a precondition for renewing the peace talks suspended in 2010.]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine


[In contrast to the story of the "generous offer" allegedly made by Barak, in reality the Israelis never actually made a formal offer to the Palestinians at Camp David, and submitted no written proposals. The only proposals offered by the Israelis were made orally, mostly through US officials, and lacked detail. The Israelis and Americans pressured Arafat to accept these vague proposals as "bases for negotiations" before moving on to other, more serious negotiations. These oral proposals, which Barak was careful to make conditional on Palestinian concessions, included:

• An Israeli withdrawal from 91% of what Israel defined as the West Bank, which didn't include large portions of the West Bank that were unilaterally annexed to occupied East Jerusalem post-1967 before East Jerusalem itself was annexed to Israel in a move not recognized by the international community, or areas like the Latrun Valley. Israel's insistence on this definition of a much-reduced West Bank, rather than the internationally recognized pre-1967 boundaries of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, precluded agreement on a starting point for negotiations on borders.
• Israeli annexation of the remaining 9% of the already shrunken West Bank in exchange for a 9:1 land swap for unspecified land in Israel.
• The fertile and strategically important Jordan Valley along the border with neighboring Jordan would remain under Israeli control under the terms of an unspecified 99-year "lease."
• On the future of refugees expelled from their homes during Israel's creation, the Israelis said the solution to their plight should be found "elsewhere" than Israel.
• On the future of occupied East Jerusalem, Palestine would have sovereignty over the Muslim and Christian quarters of the Old City, but only a loosely-defined "permanent custodianship" over the Noble Sanctuary, the third holiest site in Islam.
• Settlements in East Jerusalem were not up for negotiation.
• Israel would retain control over Palestinian airspace and the electromagnetic spectrum.
• Palestine would be a non-militarized state, sometimes referred to as "demilitarized," with only a police force for internal security.

Under the Israeli proposals, Palestinian areas in the West Bank would have been fragmented into four units, separated from each other and the outside world by Israeli settlements and their connecting roads, jeopardizing the contiguity and viability of any prospective Palestinian state.]

https://imeu.org/article/what-did-in-fact-happen-at-camp-david-in-2000

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

whiterock said:

---

.
Geez, talk about gifts. What the heck are the mullah's thinking attacking a Chinese client state?

---

"The missile strikes were part of Iran's sweeping reprisals across Syria, Iraqi Kurdistan and Pakistan, designed to exact revenge for a suicide bombing mounted by Isis-K, the Afghan branch of Islamic State, that killed 85 Iranians in the south-eastern city of Kerman on 3 January. Iran claims that Israeli intelligence has been working with Isis-K."

Oh, and there's this.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq

"A revealing light on how we got here has now been shone by a recently declassified secret US intelligence report, written in August 2012, which uncannily predicts and effectively welcomes the prospect of a "Salafist principality" in eastern Syria and an al-Qaida-controlled Islamic state in Syria and Iraq. In stark contrast to western claims at the time, the Defense Intelligence Agency document identifies al-Qaida in Iraq (which became Isis) and fellow Salafists as the "major forces driving the insurgency in Syria" and states that "western countries, the Gulf states and Turkey" were supporting the opposition's efforts to take control of eastern Syria."

So we use puppet forces to carry out a bombing in Iran and poke the bear, Iran strikes back and it isn't quite the random gift it might appear to be. Try and exploit the Sunni-Shia divide to prevent Islamic unity around opposition to Israel's actions in Gaza and if the deep state can get World War 3 kicked off before November, all the better.

Washington D.C. - "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

---

Huh? There are much worse. I would say DC is in top 10% of governments

---

That is probably an indictment of how many crappy governments (and counties) are on earth…and not a ringing endorsement of our rulers

DC is sitting on a basically unbelievable position ruling over a vast continental spanning country of endless raw materials, human capital, the best river connected farm land on earth, and all of it protected by the massive oceans.

---

Or, maybe your expectations of what is possible with Governments is unrealistic in practice.

---

Go look at the Netherlands (size of Vermont) and you can see what a non-corrupt and serious government can do....and has to do to be successful.

Denmark is up there as well.

Two Germanic states that have basically nothing to work with and basically crap land.

---

I have been to both for work. You would NEVER approve of the policies they have to achieve their goals. They both use economics, so if you are well off you still get to do what you want. Take public transportation. Everyone raves about Danish transit and bike usage. They price you out of driving. VAT, 100% car tax, $6 a liter fuel, insurance, camera enforcement, tolls. All that and they still have too many cars in Copenhagen and they had to triple parking fees.

By the way, true story. In Copenhagen we heard a traffic engineer tell us their safety stats. We called BS. So, asked him to go for a beer. 10 beers later, he filled us in on the economic constraints used by the Government. You think those people riding Bikes want to ride bikes to work in January? Hell, no. They can't afford not to. But, if you have enough money, you can live anyway you want.

Wife's friend, he stayed on their Dairy Farm when she was a kid. They denied a knee replacement at 82. Why? Too old. Better use of resources on the young. People are flying to the US to get cancer treatment because under the Danish Health System, they determine who to spend the resources on. You may get it, 6 months or 2 years later, depend on the formula.

You and this Board would NEVER stand for a Danish style of Government.

---

I think that basically describes most of Europe in Canada as well. Probably Australia & New Zealand too. If you're rich, it's tolerable because you can afford to pay the extra fees gif everything. If you are not rich, like most people, than you have a raw deal. That's why the ratchet up the climate cult propaganda to keep the peasants in line. And yet the elites fly around on private jets to Davos & other places trying to figure out how to control of our lives. The fascists are evil hypocrites.

Rationed health care and a propaganda "educational system" lying to students every day about the climate cult, the trans cult, the economy, history, and almost everything else are a part of the mix.

Our fascists (aka the "Democrats" who don't want the people to decide) want the same for the US.
more of our lives.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

historian said:

---

The Palestinians had a ceasefire with Israel on October 6. They have no one but themselves to blame for what follows from their act of complete barbarism.

---

And they could stop it any time by returning the hostages and surrendering its leaders.

---

Absolutely. And laying down their arms. The Israelis are not stupid. They aren't going to allow their enemies to remain next door & fully armed.

But the Islamofascists in Gaza will never go that because they are too arrogant & Iran keeps them supplied with weapons while the West provides them food & medicine as "humanitarian" aid, knowing full well that Hamas will seize it all for themselves as soon as it arrives.

boognish_bear said:

---

Biden spoke to Netanyahu for the first time in nearly a month today and discussed the war in Gaza and regional escalation.

The last time they spoke was Dec. 23, when a frustrated Biden ended the call by saying the "conversation is over" and hanging up.
https://t.co/p7jkfrMetb

— Axios (@axios) January 19, 2024

---

Biden is a moron and a jerk.

OsoCoreyell said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Biden spoke to Netanyahu for the first time in nearly a month today and discussed the war in Gaza and regional escalation.

The last time they spoke was Dec. 23, when a frustrated Biden ended the call by saying the "conversation is over" and hanging up.
https://t.co/p7jkfrMetb

— Axios (@axios) January 19, 2024

---

I'm pretty sure it ended with "Where's my pudding!?"

---

"ice cream cone"

It was asserted, not proven.

historian said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Biden spoke to Netanyahu for the first time in nearly a month today and discussed the war in Gaza and regional escalation.

The last time they spoke was Dec. 23, when a frustrated Biden ended the call by saying the "conversation is over" and hanging up.
https://t.co/p7jkfrMetb

— Axios (@axios) January 19, 2024

---

Biden is a moron and a jerk.

---

[The last time they spoke...a frustrated Biden ended the call by saying the "conversation is over" and hanging up.]

You can be assured that almost certainly did NOT happen.

Biden hardly talks to anyone...he is too old and out of it. His cabinet does it

And this is obviously just a story his aids are floating about "getting tough with Israel" to appease the more liberal factions of the Democratic coalition....especially among the young and the college set.

In reality Biden is pressing Congress for more cash for Israel

There is nothing liberal about the fascists. Liberalism, properly defined, is about individual freedom & moral responsibility, limited government, truly representative government, the rule of law, equality under the law, a free market economy, etc. The Left doesn't believe in any of that although the occasionally co-opt some of the rhetoric in their propaganda.

historian said:

---

There is nothing liberal about the fascists. Liberalism, properly defined, is about individual freedom & moral responsibility, limited government, truly representative government, the rule of law, equality under the law, a free market economy, etc. The Left doesn't believe in any of that although the occasionally co-opt some of the rhetoric in their propaganda.

---

Well then I guess just call the the more progressive faction of the Democratic party coalition.

They would define themselves as "Democratic Socialists" or "Social Democrats"

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

whiterock said:

---

.
Geez, talk about gifts. What the heck are the mullah's thinking attacking a Chinese client state?

---

"The missile strikes were part of Iran's sweeping reprisals across Syria, Iraqi Kurdistan and Pakistan, designed to exact revenge for a suicide bombing mounted by Isis-K, the Afghan branch of Islamic State, that killed 85 Iranians in the south-eastern city of Kerman on 3 January. Iran claims that Israeli intelligence has been working with Isis-K."

Oh, and there's this.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq

"A revealing light on how we got here has now been shone by a recently declassified secret US intelligence report, written in August 2012, which uncannily predicts and effectively welcomes the prospect of a "Salafist principality" in eastern Syria and an al-Qaida-controlled Islamic state in Syria and Iraq. In stark contrast to western claims at the time, the Defense Intelligence Agency document identifies al-Qaida in Iraq (which became Isis) and fellow Salafists as the "major forces driving the insurgency in Syria" and states that "western countries, the Gulf states and Turkey" were supporting the opposition's efforts to take control of eastern Syria."

So we use puppet forces to carry out a bombing in Iran and poke the bear, Iran strikes back and it isn't quite the random gift it might appear to be. Try and exploit the Sunni-Shia divide to prevent Islamic unity around opposition to Israel's actions in Gaza and if the deep state can get World War 3 kicked off before November, all the better.

Washington D.C. - "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

---

Huh? There are much worse. I would say DC is in top 10% of governments

---

That is probably an indictment of how many crappy governments (and counties) are on earth…and not a ringing endorsement of our rulers

DC is sitting on a basically unbelievable position ruling over a vast continental spanning country of endless raw materials, human capital, the best river connected farm land on earth, and all of it protected by the massive oceans.

---

Or, maybe your expectations of what is possible with Governments is unrealistic in practice.

---

Go look at the Netherlands (size of Vermont) and you can see what a non-corrupt and serious government can do....and has to do to be successful.

Denmark is up there as well.

Two Germanic states that have basically nothing to work with and basically crap land.

---

You and this Board would NEVER stand for a Danish style of Government.

---

lol I know what your saying and probably agree.

But the Danish government is pretty competent/efficient and they are currently sending MENA immigrants home...

[In 2019, Denmark moved from supporting integration of asylum seekers to using all measures to return them, coinciding with Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen's goal of having "zero asylum seekers".]

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/may/25/zero-asylum-seekers-denmark-forces-refugees-to-return-to-syria

They can call themselves anything they want and they often do. Sometimes men call themselves women and cheat in sports. Sometimes they accuse Republicans of doing what they, the fascists are actually doing. Actually, that kind of projection is becoming more & more frequent. But at least "social Democrat" is one of their more honest labels. It's a variation on socialism which list of them will not always admit to publicly.

So is fascism. I use that label because it's the most accurate: the abuse of power at all levels, the pervasive censorship, the persecution of political opponents, the calculated use of violence (their rent-a-mob protests over the past 20+ years), the erosion of integrity & honesty everywhere including the professions, the complete lack of morals, and on and on.

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

whiterock said:

---

.
Geez, talk about gifts. What the heck are the mullah's thinking attacking a Chinese client state?

---

Washington D.C. - "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

---

Good line. But Teheran, Beijing, Moscow, and several other places give the swamp serious competition.

---

Another reason they are not actual competition for the USA.

They have even more corrupt governments, far lower levels of military competence, far fewer allies, and even worse demographic outlooks.

For instance not only is Iran poor, compared to the USA, its religious establishment is deeply entrenched in both the government and the economy with endless opportunities for corruption.

---

Symmetrical competition is irrelevant. There's a classic line from Darrell Royal that applies here. ""(TCU) is like a bunch of cockroaches. It's not what they eat and tote off, it's what they fall into and mess up that hurts."

OsoCoreyell said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

can’t remember the last time a strong ally of the united states as publicly and emphatically rebuked the us president as netanyahu’s refusal to consider a two state solution.

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) January 19, 2024

---

You want to know who doesn't want a two state solution? The Palestinians. They have been offered a 2 state solution no less than 4 times and have solidly rejected it every time in favor of hanging on to their past grievances and desire to destory Israel. There is no two state solution - only two-state wishful thinking by the deeply unserious Biden Administration.

---

BS. 100% on that idiot Bibi. He is just trying to stay out of jail, just like trumps

historian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

whiterock said:

---

.
Geez, talk about gifts. What the heck are the mullah's thinking attacking a Chinese client state?

---

"The missile strikes were part of Iran's sweeping reprisals across Syria, Iraqi Kurdistan and Pakistan, designed to exact revenge for a suicide bombing mounted by Isis-K, the Afghan branch of Islamic State, that killed 85 Iranians in the south-eastern city of Kerman on 3 January. Iran claims that Israeli intelligence has been working with Isis-K."

Oh, and there's this.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq

"A revealing light on how we got here has now been shone by a recently declassified secret US intelligence report, written in August 2012, which uncannily predicts and effectively welcomes the prospect of a "Salafist principality" in eastern Syria and an al-Qaida-controlled Islamic state in Syria and Iraq. In stark contrast to western claims at the time, the Defense Intelligence Agency document identifies al-Qaida in Iraq (which became Isis) and fellow Salafists as the "major forces driving the insurgency in Syria" and states that "western countries, the Gulf states and Turkey" were supporting the opposition's efforts to take control of eastern Syria."

So we use puppet forces to carry out a bombing in Iran and poke the bear, Iran strikes back and it isn't quite the random gift it might appear to be. Try and exploit the Sunni-Shia divide to prevent Islamic unity around opposition to Israel's actions in Gaza and if the deep state can get World War 3 kicked off before November, all the better.

Washington D.C. - "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

---

Huh? There are much worse. I would say DC is in top 10% of governments

---

That is probably an indictment of how many crappy governments (and counties) are on earth…and not a ringing endorsement of our rulers

DC is sitting on a basically unbelievable position ruling over a vast continental spanning country of endless raw materials, human capital, the best river connected farm land on earth, and all of it protected by the massive oceans.

---

Or, maybe your expectations of what is possible with Governments is unrealistic in practice.

---

Go look at the Netherlands (size of Vermont) and you can see what a non-corrupt and serious government can do....and has to do to be successful.

Denmark is up there as well.

Two Germanic states that have basically nothing to work with and basically crap land.

---

I have been to both for work. You would NEVER approve of the policies they have to achieve their goals. They both use economics, so if you are well off you still get to do what you want. Take public transportation. Everyone raves about Danish transit and bike usage. They price you out of driving. VAT, 100% car tax, $6 a liter fuel, insurance, camera enforcement, tolls. All that and they still have too many cars in Copenhagen and they had to triple parking fees.

By the way, true story. In Copenhagen we heard a traffic engineer tell us their safety stats. We called BS. So, asked him to go for a beer. 10 beers later, he filled us in on the economic constraints used by the Government. You think those people riding Bikes want to ride bikes to work in January? Hell, no. They can't afford not to. But, if you have enough money, you can live anyway you want.

Wife's friend, he stayed on their Dairy Farm when she was a kid. They denied a knee replacement at 82. Why? Too old. Better use of resources on the young. People are flying to the US to get cancer treatment because under the Danish Health System, they determine who to spend the resources on. You may get it, 6 months or 2 years later, depend on the formula.

You and this Board would NEVER stand for a Danish style of Government.

---

I think that basically describes most of Europe in Canada as well. Probably Australia & New Zealand too. If you're rich, it's tolerable because you can afford to pay the extra fees gif everything. If you are not rich, like most people, than you have a raw deal. That's why the ratchet up the climate cult propaganda to keep the peasants in line. And yet the elites fly around on private jets to Davos & other places trying to figure out how to control of our lives. The fascists are evil hypocrites.

Rationed health care and a propaganda "educational system" lying to students every day about the climate cult, the trans cult, the economy, history, and almost everything else are a part of the mix.

Our fascists (aka the "Democrats" who don't want the people to decide) want the same for the US.
more of our lives.

---

I alway find this argument a bit bogus. I have tons of European friends and they are all happy with their care and the relative cost. This "socialized medicine " Is just total BS. We are the only industrialized country in the world that relies on businesses to provide a significant contribution to healthcare. That came during WW2, where companies manufacturing war material offered healthcare to entice workers to fill the gap relative to speeding up production. I have studied this a lot. This whole "socialized medicine" is nothing more than the brilliant insurance and Pharma lobby raping all of us. I have been on the compensation committee in a $15B public company and am now self ensured, with a preexisting condition. What an effing racket.

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

There is nothing liberal about the fascists. Liberalism, properly defined, is about individual freedom & moral responsibility, limited government, truly representative government, the rule of law, equality under the law, a free market economy, etc. The Left doesn't believe in any of that although the occasionally co-opt some of the rhetoric in their propaganda.

---

Well then I guess just call the the more progressive faction of the Democratic party coalition.

They would define themselves as "Democratic Socialists" or "Social Democrats"

---

These maps are useful for some purposes (showing that rural vs. urban areas are more conservative, showing that the west (until CA and WA and OR) is more conservative than the east),

BUT, land doesn't vote. People do. You can't infer that the vast majority of Americans are conservative from this map. Jus that the low population areas in the west and midwest are conservative.

OsoCoreyell said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

There is nothing liberal about the fascists. Liberalism, properly defined, is about individual freedom & moral responsibility, limited government, truly representative government, the rule of law, equality under the law, a free market economy, etc. The Left doesn't believe in any of that although the occasionally co-opt some of the rhetoric in their propaganda.

---

Well then I guess just call the the more progressive faction of the Democratic party coalition.

They would define themselves as "Democratic Socialists" or "Social Democrats"

---

These maps are useful for some purposes (showing that rural vs. urban areas are more conservative, showing that the west (until CA and WA and OR) is more conservative than the east),

BUT, land doesn't vote. People do. You can't infer that the vast majority of Americans are conservative from this map. Just that the low population areas in the west and midwest are conservative.

---

Sure.

I would never argue that because a majority of US counties are conservative then the majority are conservative.

I just posted the map to show that there are at least 7 major political factions in the USA…. And the most progressive of that group defines themselves as "democratic socialists"

J.R. said:

---

historian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

whiterock said:

---

.
Geez, talk about gifts. What the heck are the mullah's thinking attacking a Chinese client state?

---

"The missile strikes were part of Iran's sweeping reprisals across Syria, Iraqi Kurdistan and Pakistan, designed to exact revenge for a suicide bombing mounted by Isis-K, the Afghan branch of Islamic State, that killed 85 Iranians in the south-eastern city of Kerman on 3 January. Iran claims that Israeli intelligence has been working with Isis-K."

Oh, and there's this.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq

"A revealing light on how we got here has now been shone by a recently declassified secret US intelligence report, written in August 2012, which uncannily predicts and effectively welcomes the prospect of a "Salafist principality" in eastern Syria and an al-Qaida-controlled Islamic state in Syria and Iraq. In stark contrast to western claims at the time, the Defense Intelligence Agency document identifies al-Qaida in Iraq (which became Isis) and fellow Salafists as the "major forces driving the insurgency in Syria" and states that "western countries, the Gulf states and Turkey" were supporting the opposition's efforts to take control of eastern Syria."

So we use puppet forces to carry out a bombing in Iran and poke the bear, Iran strikes back and it isn't quite the random gift it might appear to be. Try and exploit the Sunni-Shia divide to prevent Islamic unity around opposition to Israel's actions in Gaza and if the deep state can get World War 3 kicked off before November, all the better.

Washington D.C. - "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

---

Huh? There are much worse. I would say DC is in top 10% of governments

---

That is probably an indictment of how many crappy governments (and counties) are on earth…and not a ringing endorsement of our rulers

DC is sitting on a basically unbelievable position ruling over a vast continental spanning country of endless raw materials, human capital, the best river connected farm land on earth, and all of it protected by the massive oceans.

---

Or, maybe your expectations of what is possible with Governments is unrealistic in practice.

---

Go look at the Netherlands (size of Vermont) and you can see what a non-corrupt and serious government can do....and has to do to be successful.

Denmark is up there as well.

Two Germanic states that have basically nothing to work with and basically crap land.

---

I have been to both for work. You would NEVER approve of the policies they have to achieve their goals. They both use economics, so if you are well off you still get to do what you want. Take public transportation. Everyone raves about Danish transit and bike usage. They price you out of driving. VAT, 100% car tax, $6 a liter fuel, insurance, camera enforcement, tolls. All that and they still have too many cars in Copenhagen and they had to triple parking fees.

By the way, true story. In Copenhagen we heard a traffic engineer tell us their safety stats. We called BS. So, asked him to go for a beer. 10 beers later, he filled us in on the economic constraints used by the Government. You think those people riding Bikes want to ride bikes to work in January? Hell, no. They can't afford not to. But, if you have enough money, you can live anyway you want.

Wife's friend, he stayed on their Dairy Farm when she was a kid. They denied a knee replacement at 82. Why? Too old. Better use of resources on the young. People are flying to the US to get cancer treatment because under the Danish Health System, they determine who to spend the resources on. You may get it, 6 months or 2 years later, depend on the formula.

You and this Board would NEVER stand for a Danish style of Government.

---

I think that basically describes most of Europe in Canada as well. Probably Australia & New Zealand too. If you're rich, it's tolerable because you can afford to pay the extra fees gif everything. If you are not rich, like most people, than you have a raw deal. That's why the ratchet up the climate cult propaganda to keep the peasants in line. And yet the elites fly around on private jets to Davos & other places trying to figure out how to control of our lives. The fascists are evil hypocrites.

Rationed health care and a propaganda "educational system" lying to students every day about the climate cult, the trans cult, the economy, history, and almost everything else are a part of the mix.

Our fascists (aka the "Democrats" who don't want the people to decide) want the same for the US.
more of our lives.

---

I alway find this argument a bit bogus. I have tons of European friends and they are all happy with their care and the relative cost. This "socialized medicine " Is just total BS. We are the only industrialized country in the world that relies on businesses to provide a significant contribution to healthcare. That came during WW2, where companies manufacturing war material offered healthcare to entice workers to fill the gap relative to speeding up production. I have studied this a lot. This whole "socialized medicine" is nothing more than the brilliant insurance and Pharma lobby raping all of us. I have been on the compensation committee in a $15B public company and am now self ensured, with a preexisting condition. What an effing racket.

---

Government health care is not the solution. There is not one area of the economy that the government does the job best. They are generally incompetent, wasteful, and all too often incompetent. Most of the time, they don't care. Businesses generally do a better job with just about any task because it is in their interest to be efficient, cost effective, etc. Having one's employer be the source of health insurance is a terrible idea. That came out of WWII because of wage and price controls (another terrible idea). It was the best option at the time but the result of people trying to get around the mess the government had created.

A big part of our problem in the US is that every effort to reform health care since the war has involved more government: Medicare & Medicaid in the 1960s, tweaks on the system since then, and then Obamacare. All these "fixes" have done is make matters worse. Big Pharma is also part of the problem, but it's a monster created by the government.

We want the new medicines because they often work miracles but they are difficult and expensive to develop. & the FDA makes both worse. On the one hand, we want the medicines but we also want them to be safe with minimal side effects. If they are rushed too much, things can be worse. The covid vaccine is an obvious example. It's a difficult balance and the poo OL logicians & bureaucrats cannot make the proper decisions most of the time.

Good point: each urban area would have to be broken down by neighborhood and that could be a hodgepodge. Also, the information could be old or just plain wrong.

Quote:

---

I alway find this argument a bit bogus. I have tons of European friends and they are all happy with their care and the relative cost. This "socialized medicine " Is just total BS. We are the only industrialized country in the world that relies on businesses to provide a significant contribution to healthcare. That came during WW2, where companies manufacturing war material offered healthcare to entice workers to fill the gap relative to speeding up production. I have studied this a lot. This whole "socialized medicine" is nothing more than the brilliant insurance and Pharma lobby raping all of us. I have been on the compensation committee in a $15B public company and am now self ensured, with a preexisting condition. What an effing racket.

---

It is true that the Pharma lobby is out of control.

It's also true that socialized medicine absolutely sucks. On a trip to Europe (Spain) I had a colleague in a fairly serious accident, transported by EMS to the main public hospital. We went there.

The ED was basically a large room, divided by curtains into pods of 3 patients. There were two nurses there, maybe 45-50 patients. No physician. He came in about three hours later, rounded, and left.

The next morning they were transferred to the private hospital where the care was comparable to what we have in the US.

I guarantee you that people who would be living in better US hospitals are dying in the European public healthcare system.

Fixing what is wrong with healthcare doesn't have to involve socializing the system under government control. It's already too socialist, and it has the worst aspects of both. Break the back of corporate monopolies in medicine. Ban 1099 independent contractor work. Roll back to the private practice era. Ban pharma from advertising. Ban lawyers from advertising.

J.R. said:

---

OsoCoreyell said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

can’t remember the last time a strong ally of the united states as publicly and emphatically rebuked the us president as netanyahu’s refusal to consider a two state solution.

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) January 19, 2024

---

You want to know who doesn't want a two state solution? The Palestinians. They have been offered a 2 state solution no less than 4 times and have solidly rejected it every time in favor of hanging on to their past grievances and desire to destory Israel. There is no two state solution - only two-state wishful thinking by the deeply unserious Biden Administration.

---

BS. 100% on that idiot Bibi. He is just trying to stay out of jail, just like trumps

---

Genuinely curious. Do you actually not realize the Arabs in Israel have rejected a so-called "two-state solution" multiple times or just like to pretend its Netanyahu's fault like so much of the fiction you have created around Trump? I mean you can try www.duckduckgo.com and learn about the history.

Redbrickbear said:

---

---

Who controls Gaza today? Judea and Samaria? Are those areas governed by Israel or Arabs?

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

J.R. said:

---

OsoCoreyell said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

can’t remember the last time a strong ally of the united states as publicly and emphatically rebuked the us president as netanyahu’s refusal to consider a two state solution.

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) January 19, 2024

---

You want to know who doesn't want a two state solution? The Palestinians. They have been offered a 2 state solution no less than 4 times and have solidly rejected it every time in favor of hanging on to their past grievances and desire to destory Israel. There is no two state solution - only two-state wishful thinking by the deeply unserious Biden Administration.

---

BS. 100% on that idiot Bibi. He is just trying to stay out of jail, just like trumps

---

Genuinely curious. Do you actually not realize the Arabs in Israel have rejected a so-called "two-state solution" multiple times or just like to pretend its Netanyahu's fault..

---

Honestly I see what you are saying and agree in large parts.

Palestinian Arabs were foolish not to agree to peace in 1948 or 1967.

But since then the peace deals have not been great…basically Israel gets 10% more land and East Jerusalem plus control of Palestinian air space.

That's not a great deal…

Redbrickbear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

J.R. said:

---

OsoCoreyell said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

can’t remember the last time a strong ally of the united states as publicly and emphatically rebuked the us president as netanyahu’s refusal to consider a two state solution.

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) January 19, 2024

---

You want to know who doesn't want a two state solution? The Palestinians. They have been offered a 2 state solution no less than 4 times and have solidly rejected it every time in favor of hanging on to their past grievances and desire to destory Israel. There is no two state solution - only two-state wishful thinking by the deeply unserious Biden Administration.

---

BS. 100% on that idiot Bibi. He is just trying to stay out of jail, just like trumps

---

Genuinely curious. Do you actually not realize the Arabs in Israel have rejected a so-called "two-state solution" multiple times or just like to pretend its Netanyahu's fault..

---

Honestly I see what you are saying and agree in large parts.

Palestinian Arabs were foolish not to agree to peace in 1948 or 1967.

But since then the peace deals have not been great…basically Israel gets 10% more land and East Jerusalem plus control of Palestinian air space.

That's not a great deal…

---

Except for the settlement of the Russian - Japanese War

How many war losers got a 'great deal' ?

The Arabs have huge territories while the Israeli's have a tiny sliver of the Middle East. What do the Palestinians (Arabs) want? Their slogan is "from the river to the sea", meaning from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. All of Israel. Look at a map.

They are modern day Nazis who want to destroy the Jewish state and annihilate the Jewish people. They demonstrated that on October 7 and many times before. Why should the Israeli's negotiate with such people? No one in their right mind would surrender a war they are winning to butchers whose raison d'etre is their annihilation.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

J.R. said:

---

OsoCoreyell said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

can’t remember the last time a strong ally of the united states as publicly and emphatically rebuked the us president as netanyahu’s refusal to consider a two state solution.

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) January 19, 2024

---

You want to know who doesn't want a two state solution? The Palestinians. They have been offered a 2 state solution no less than 4 times and have solidly rejected it every time in favor of hanging on to their past grievances and desire to destory Israel. There is no two state solution - only two-state wishful thinking by the deeply unserious Biden Administration.

---

BS. 100% on that idiot Bibi. He is just trying to stay out of jail, just like trumps

---

Genuinely curious. Do you actually not realize the Arabs in Israel have rejected a so-called "two-state solution" multiple times or just like to pretend its Netanyahu's fault..

---

Honestly I see what you are saying and agree in large parts.

Palestinian Arabs were foolish not to agree to peace in 1948 or 1967.

But since then the peace deals have not been great…basically Israel gets 10% more land and East Jerusalem plus control of Palestinian air space.

That's not a great deal…

---

The 48 deal was very good in hindsight. The Arabs had everything they wants, minus extinction of the Jews. They lost it all through greed and violence. Now they are trying the violence route again, they will end up losing more. The one wild card is that Israel does not care, they are in an existential fight, they will use everything and take no quarter. Arabs picked wrong adversary.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

J.R. said:

---

OsoCoreyell said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

can’t remember the last time a strong ally of the united states as publicly and emphatically rebuked the us president as netanyahu’s refusal to consider a two state solution.

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) January 19, 2024

---

You want to know who doesn't want a two state solution? The Palestinians. They have been offered a 2 state solution no less than 4 times and have solidly rejected it every time in favor of hanging on to their past grievances and desire to destory Israel. There is no two state solution - only two-state wishful thinking by the deeply unserious Biden Administration.

---

BS. 100% on that idiot Bibi. He is just trying to stay out of jail, just like trumps

---

Genuinely curious. Do you actually not realize the Arabs in Israel have rejected a so-called "two-state solution" multiple times or just like to pretend its Netanyahu's fault..

---

Honestly I see what you are saying and agree in large parts.

Palestinian Arabs were foolish not to agree to peace in 1948 or 1967.

But since then the peace deals have not been great…basically Israel gets 10% more land and East Jerusalem plus control of Palestinian air space.

That's not a great deal…

---

The 48 deal was very good in hindsight. The Arabs had everything they wants, minus extinction of the Jews. They lost it all through greed and violence. Now they are trying the violence route again, they will end up losing more. The one wild card is that Israel does not care, they are in an existential fight, they will use everything and take no quarter. Arabs picked wrong adversary.

---

And they've done it repeatedly: 1948, 1967, 1973, etc