I saw that movie too.
"Would you like to play a game of chess?"
"Would you like to play a game of chess?"
Netanyahu said "we are at war,"
430,270 Views |
6535 Replies |
Last: 9 hrs ago by Sam Lowry
historian said:
I saw that movie too.
"Would you like to play a game of chess?"
It's a movie so nowhere close to reality but it is right about how game theory works.
My point is the game theory might be an interesting theory but it might explain very little of the real world. Or maybe it's overly simplistic.
cms186 said:
just another day of Israel defending themselves against *checks notes* unarmed civilians including a 6 year old child and Paramedics sent to try and rescue said Child with supposed coordination with the Israeli military
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286
Scattershooting while wondering if Hams has released the hostages and sued for peace?
historian said:
My point is the game theory might be an interesting theory but it might explain very little of the real world. Or maybe it's overly simplistic.
It's not. It's very real and I assure you that government analysts use to assess threats and determine logical outcomes.
Given the government's track record, that's not a ringing endorsement.
Israel may look back and regret how they are handling this, but I would not believe Hamas reports of innocent deaths. The world believing Israel is slaughtering innocents by the thousands is about the best thing Hamas could hope for.
Truth is they still hold hostages. Why don't they give them back? Have they already raped each one to death? These are terrorists. What else was Israel supposed to do? Just leave their people to be tortured and killed?
Truth is they still hold hostages. Why don't they give them back? Have they already raped each one to death? These are terrorists. What else was Israel supposed to do? Just leave their people to be tortured and killed?
historian said:
Given the government's track record, that's not a ringing endorsement.
It's a little like poker. The math dictates one thing but the players sometimes make decisions that don't make logical sense.
You can know the rules, correctly calculate the odds and completely miss what the other player actually does. Doesn't mean your assessment of the situation was wrong.
It should be noted that AI poker beats humans at an alarmingly high rate because it is merely calculating odds with no emotion. Kasparov couldn't beat Big Blue using today's AI advancements.
That's a long way to say game theory works. It especially works in politics when paired with a rational actor model.
If you think of Putin as what he has been (Russian, former military and KGB) and what he says he is you can't really be shocked by his invasion of Ukraine, for example. You also can't be surprised by Ukraines push back and russias subsequent escalation.
Same in Israel. Hamas strikes first, Israel retaliates. In this instance Israel is escalating because they are in the position of power and feel they can end the game quickly.
Theory also tells us there is no winner of this game; the best outcome is that the game carries on as long as possible (in this case a stalemate with both players correctly assessing that they can't win so they agree not to play).
sombear said:I'd say posting one anecdote during a war is childish, but I don't take these discussions personally.cms186 said:"He started it" is the kind of thing a child says when fighting with their sibling. Of course Israel should (and always does) defend itself, but this is going way beyond that.sombear said:Flat awful, obviously. Stories like this are endless during war. War is hell.cms186 said:
just another day of Israel defending themselves against *checks notes* unarmed civilians including a 6 year old child and Paramedics sent to try and rescue said Child with supposed coordination with the Israeli military
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286
If this article is accurate, I hope whoever did it is convicted of a war crime.
Hamas started this.
Hamas committed over 1000 war crimes against innocent civilians, including children.
Strong majorities of Gazans support what Hamas did in October.
Hamas could end this anytime by returning hostages.
Hamas uses ambulances, children, women, hospitals, schools, UN offices, and mosques as shields and feigns.
Nobody (at least no one rational) is trying to justify what Hamas did, it was awful beyond words, what Israel is doing is far, far worse. there is no way of knowing for certain, but many international aid charities have put a rough estimate at the amount of Palestinian Children killed in this "war" at over 10'000 and that's not even including the amount of innocent Civilian adults.
Yes, many of them probably voted for Hamas and many probably support Hamas's actions, that doesn't mean they deserve to die, fortunately I don't have first hand experience but I imagine that life for an average Palestinian in Gaza (before this war) is pretty **** and Hamas is probably one of the few entities that fights (or at least professes to fight, in reality it seems they have little regard for the life of the average Palestinian) for their interests.
More importantly, I did not just argue "they started it." They started it. They could end it literally anytime. They commit constant war crimes by using all the shields and feigns I mentioned. They are an elected organization. They proudly and openly call for the destruction of Israel. They planned all of this while pretending to work with Israel.
I do not believe what Israel is doing is worse. They cannot defend themselves without defeating Hamas, and, absent Hamas surrendering - which they are too cowardly to do - the only way to defeat Hamas is to go after them where they are. And unfortunately, where the cowards are - intentionally so - is with and by innocents.
Who said ANYONE deserves to die? They don't. But deaths happen in war. Hamas knew that. In fact, they attacked Israel precisely because they knew how Israel would respond, and they hoped that would undermine Israel's relationships with other Arab countries.
So when Israel attempted to kill everyone aboard the USS Liberty, why did Israel not turn over the boat captains and pilots who committed those murders ... it was WORSE than a war crime! Bcs we weren't even at war!!!
These leaks are designed to make Netanyahu look bad but in reality they make Biden look ridiculous. He's demanding Israel lose, Israel is replying "no thanks," and all he can do is shit-talk Bibi to the media. A pathetic spectacle of ineptitude. https://t.co/4FKu9mxo7T
— Noah Pollak (@NoahPollak) February 12, 2024
Like most such models, game theory can be a useful analytical tool but with limits. No methodology is perfect and it's impossible to account for all variables. This is especially true when it comes to trying to predict outcomes and future events. For example, assuming the rational actor sets off all kinds of red flags. Lots of people are irrational much of the time and everyone is irrational at least some of the time. Whether it is emotions are something else, people often act in wildly unpredictable ways.
Crap in, Crap out. Simulation and Decision Support models are only as good as what goes in and the agenda of who puts it in.historian said:
Like most such models, game theory can be a useful analytical tool but with limits. No methodology is perfect and it's impossible to account for all variables. This is especially true when it comes to trying to predict outcomes and future events. For example, assuming the rational actor sets off all kinds of red flags. Lots of people are irrational much of the time and everyone is irrational at least some of the time. Whether it is emotions are something else, people often act in wildly unpredictable ways.
Out of date notions, bad metrics, and simply no way to calibrate/validate. Models are guesses. Some of the models we use can have up to a 40% margin of error and still be considered a good model. And that is using for traffic for example where we can do validation counts.
I get nervous when people start quoting models and "theories" as the reason we are taking actions, usually there is some benefit to them somewhere down the line.
Then Israel can plan and conduct their military operations without our money and assistance. You can’t have it both ways. https://t.co/SkxDOTUL0L
— Justin Amash (@justinamash) February 13, 2024
Matt Miller says "You don't want people to go into homes that are unsafe...buildings where Hamas has left IEDs."
— Laurence (Larry) Boorstein (@LarryBoorstein) February 14, 2024
"Israel" bombed and destroyed 79,200 homes and partially damaged 207,000 homes. 2,000,000 Palestinians have been displaced.
What planet are these Washingtonians on?
Americas fascists are mouthpieces for terrorists. They are repeating Hamas propaganda.
historian said:
Americas fascists are mouthpieces for terrorists. They are repeating Hamas propaganda.
Both sides are deplorable. No aid American aid to either of them. Let them fight it out and keep us out of it!
You are apparently too young to remember that time Reagan bombed Qaddafy's tent. We got decades of benefit from that.Realitybites said:Quote:
MOST nations bombed back to the stone age will remember it for a good long while, and calibrate their actions to avoid it.
...and there are those countries, like Afghanistan, that never left the stone age, where "back to the stone age" has no meaning.
The cave man likes to sit by his own fire in his own cave with discretion to club his own women for failing to abide by his own rules.. He will chafe when he has to watch from afar while someone else gets to do all that.
Rulers want to rule, not run around dodging bombs every day.
I don't want to bomb them back to the stone age. I just want to bomb them back to Russia.Sam Lowry said:Did you forget you were talking about Russia, or do you really thinking bombing them back to the Stone Age is a good plan?whiterock said:Yeah, a dog can get numbed to electric collar stimulation. Particularly a tough one. Find one that barks the batteries out of a bark collar., and very often, they become immune to levels of training stimulation that would crumple the average dog. But the vast majority of dogs submit to the collar so thoroughly all you have to do is put the collar on them and they become uber compliant.Sam Lowry said:This may sound odd, but not everyone's policy is controlled by Pavlovian responses.whiterock said:Western Civilization is built on Judeo-Christian philosophical values about the rights & wrongs of social contract, of which the list of examples is quite long. I mean, what European war was fought over Plato vs Socrates? Athens vs. Sparta?The_barBEARian said:
Western civilization wasn't built around the Bible.
It was built around the Greek philosophers and scientists. Greece was the birthplace of western civilization, not Israel.
I think Islam and the Arab world is as big a threat to our way of life as you do. Unfortunately our imbecilic leaders want to go to war with Russia and Serbia when they should be our shared allies against a common enemy.
I believe the post-soviet, Russian speaking world would be a much better ally to us than Israel ever was.
When islamic armies besiege the next Vienna, I have no doubt Russia and Serbia will be there to help. Perhaps the next Sobieski will even speak Russian as his native tongue. In the meantime, the Russians hold some very old and quite nakedly revanchist geopolitical notions that are at odds with modern constructions. And THEY invaded a neighbor to take what they thought they were entitled to, not us.
Russia should, indeed, be more worried about its neighbors to its south and west. That they irrationally chose to attack westwards only proves the point I've been making about the costs of ignoring reality - powers make bad decisions, and dealing with the consequences are frightfully expensive, win or lose. Best course of action is to respond quickly and forcefully, to send Pavlovian lessons that will shape future decision-making in a more productive direction.
MOST nations bombed back to the stone age will remember it for a good long while, and calibrate their actions to avoid it.
That presumes Player 1 and Player 2 are peer players. That is not at all the case in this particular real world "game." Player 1 can only win in scenarios where Player 2 self-limits options. But Player 2 is not doing that. Player 2 is unleashing the preponderance of its might. With each round, Player 1 is getting substantially weaker. Destruction of Player 1 is the inevitable outcome if the game continues.nein51 said:
Research game theory.
Player 1 starts
Player 2 goes further
Player 1 retaliates and goes further
Player 2 retaliates and goes further still
On the outside it makes no sense especially when you're watching the players destroy each other. From the inside retaliation makes perfect sense.
It's why, in War Games, the computer eventually determines the only outcome is to not play the game.
Ergo all the international outcry.
Israel must do this to send a message to the Palestinians who survive, both in Gaza and in the West Bank: you cannot destroy us, but we can destroy you. And we WILL destroy you if you attack us again. So be very careful what you teach your children.
It's a war between civilization & barbarism. Israel is doing everyone a favor by destroying the barbaric inhumane Hamas. It must be done. It doesn't matter that antisemites in Europe and elsewhere are whining about it out of ignorance or bigotry. What Israel is doing is for the long term stability of the region are for the preservation of civilization by those who want to destroy it. It's America's fight too except we don't have boots on the ground. Providing them with some of the tools to complete the task is allowing us to contribute on the cheap. It's a small price to pay but a wise investment. These are geopolitical realities. False moral equivalencies have no place in the discussion.
American tax payer has given nearly one Trillion in handouts - how exactly is that "on the cheap"? Israel is the most expensive, least loyal hoe that there is.
You are completely brainwashed by Israel... fortunately you are the minority position amongst the general public and an absolute minority with the under 40 demographic.
Unfortunately you are in the majority position in congress bcs Israel uses the tax dollars they steal from us to lobby and buyout our politicians.
Unfortunately you are in the majority position in congress bcs Israel uses the tax dollars they steal from us to lobby and buyout our politicians.
Spread out over decades.
It's cheap compared to Americans dying in another Afghanistan.
It's cheap compared to Americans dying in another Afghanistan.
Israel is not stealing anything from us. The U.S. is investing in regional stability willingly.
You just don't understand geopolitical reality.
historian said:
Israel is not stealing anything from us. The U.S. is investing in regional stability willingly.
You just don't understand geopolitical reality.
We have to bribe Egypt with billions a year in American tax payer money to keep a peace treaty with Israel.
Every couple of years it's at war with one of its neighbors.
It won't end its illegal occupation of the West Bank (the Palestinian State)
How exactly is it helping "regional security"?
This is a vivid expression of the Dem Party I've been reporting on, analyzing, and despising for 20 years:
— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) February 14, 2024
They have a Dem Senator dramatically blast Israel as "war criminals" to trick angry leftists into thinking Dems are like them.
Then he votes YES to send Israel $14b more. https://t.co/qh9ydko8FO
whiterock said:I just want to bomb them back to Russia.Sam Lowry said:Did you forget you were talking about Russia, or do you really thinking bombing them back to the Stone Age is a good plan?whiterock said:Yeah, a dog can get numbed to electric collar stimulation. Particularly a tough one. Find one that barks the batteries out of a bark collar., and very often, they become immune to levels of training stimulation that would crumple the average dog. But the vast majority of dogs submit to the collar so thoroughly all you have to do is put the collar on them and they become uber compliant.Sam Lowry said:This may sound odd, but not everyone's policy is controlled by Pavlovian responses.whiterock said:Western Civilization is built on Judeo-Christian philosophical values about the rights & wrongs of social contract, of which the list of examples is quite long. I mean, what European war was fought over Plato vs Socrates? Athens vs. Sparta?The_barBEARian said:
Western civilization wasn't built around the Bible.
It was built around the Greek philosophers and scientists. Greece was the birthplace of western civilization, not Israel.
I think Islam and the Arab world is as big a threat to our way of life as you do. Unfortunately our imbecilic leaders want to go to war with Russia and Serbia when they should be our shared allies against a common enemy.
I believe the post-soviet, Russian speaking world would be a much better ally to us than Israel ever was.
When islamic armies besiege the next Vienna, I have no doubt Russia and Serbia will be there to help. Perhaps the next Sobieski will even speak Russian as his native tongue. In the meantime, the Russians hold some very old and quite nakedly revanchist geopolitical notions that are at odds with modern constructions. And THEY invaded a neighbor to take what they thought they were entitled to, not us.
Russia should, indeed, be more worried about its neighbors to its south and west. That they irrationally chose to attack westwards only proves the point I've been making about the costs of ignoring reality - powers make bad decisions, and dealing with the consequences are frightfully expensive, win or lose. Best course of action is to respond quickly and forcefully, to send Pavlovian lessons that will shape future decision-making in a more productive direction.
MOST nations bombed back to the stone age will remember it for a good long while, and calibrate their actions to avoid it.
Then it sounds like a peace treaty right now that lets Russian have the 20% ethnic Russian lands in the east would be smart.
The rest can be Ukrainian and join the EU
Win win
They want Russia wiped off the map and are trying to hoodwink you into believing this is about saving Ukraine.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:I just want to bomb them back to Russia.Sam Lowry said:Did you forget you were talking about Russia, or do you really thinking bombing them back to the Stone Age is a good plan?whiterock said:Yeah, a dog can get numbed to electric collar stimulation. Particularly a tough one. Find one that barks the batteries out of a bark collar., and very often, they become immune to levels of training stimulation that would crumple the average dog. But the vast majority of dogs submit to the collar so thoroughly all you have to do is put the collar on them and they become uber compliant.Sam Lowry said:This may sound odd, but not everyone's policy is controlled by Pavlovian responses.whiterock said:Western Civilization is built on Judeo-Christian philosophical values about the rights & wrongs of social contract, of which the list of examples is quite long. I mean, what European war was fought over Plato vs Socrates? Athens vs. Sparta?The_barBEARian said:
Western civilization wasn't built around the Bible.
It was built around the Greek philosophers and scientists. Greece was the birthplace of western civilization, not Israel.
I think Islam and the Arab world is as big a threat to our way of life as you do. Unfortunately our imbecilic leaders want to go to war with Russia and Serbia when they should be our shared allies against a common enemy.
I believe the post-soviet, Russian speaking world would be a much better ally to us than Israel ever was.
When islamic armies besiege the next Vienna, I have no doubt Russia and Serbia will be there to help. Perhaps the next Sobieski will even speak Russian as his native tongue. In the meantime, the Russians hold some very old and quite nakedly revanchist geopolitical notions that are at odds with modern constructions. And THEY invaded a neighbor to take what they thought they were entitled to, not us.
Russia should, indeed, be more worried about its neighbors to its south and west. That they irrationally chose to attack westwards only proves the point I've been making about the costs of ignoring reality - powers make bad decisions, and dealing with the consequences are frightfully expensive, win or lose. Best course of action is to respond quickly and forcefully, to send Pavlovian lessons that will shape future decision-making in a more productive direction.
MOST nations bombed back to the stone age will remember it for a good long while, and calibrate their actions to avoid it.
Then it sounds like a peace treaty right now that lets Russian have the 20% ethnic Russian lands in the east would be smart.
The rest can be Ukrainian and join the EU
Win win
If you press them hard enough they'll admit it.
There is nothing illegal about Israel occupying Judea & Samaria. It is historically theirs for thousands of years literally, given to them by God. More recently, in 1967, Israel won the territory in the Six Day War after defeating the enemies surrounding them who sought to destroy & annihilate then. The only "Palestinian state" is Gaza which Hamas, a terrorist organization, has run into the ground because they are not interested in actually governing, don't care about the people, & only care about killing Jews.
Israel is the best governed, freest, & strongest economically nation in the region. And yes, they are stabilizing force in the region with their strength and their ability to keep terrorist grouped in check. They managed to develop peaceful, even somewhat friendly, relations with Egypt, Jordan, & several other Muslim nations in the region (Abraham Accords). Saudi Arabia was in the verge of joining this arrangement before October 7.
Israel is the best governed, freest, & strongest economically nation in the region. And yes, they are stabilizing force in the region with their strength and their ability to keep terrorist grouped in check. They managed to develop peaceful, even somewhat friendly, relations with Egypt, Jordan, & several other Muslim nations in the region (Abraham Accords). Saudi Arabia was in the verge of joining this arrangement before October 7.
That may be where it ends up. But Russia still has too many tanks, arty pieces, arty shells, etc.....and too many soldiers in uniform. They're already at full employment, so cannot continue with the stealth mobilization indefinitely without starting to eat into manufacturing capacity. Keep up the pressure. They might crack.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:I just want to bomb them back to Russia.Sam Lowry said:Did you forget you were talking about Russia, or do you really thinking bombing them back to the Stone Age is a good plan?whiterock said:Yeah, a dog can get numbed to electric collar stimulation. Particularly a tough one. Find one that barks the batteries out of a bark collar., and very often, they become immune to levels of training stimulation that would crumple the average dog. But the vast majority of dogs submit to the collar so thoroughly all you have to do is put the collar on them and they become uber compliant.Sam Lowry said:This may sound odd, but not everyone's policy is controlled by Pavlovian responses.whiterock said:Western Civilization is built on Judeo-Christian philosophical values about the rights & wrongs of social contract, of which the list of examples is quite long. I mean, what European war was fought over Plato vs Socrates? Athens vs. Sparta?The_barBEARian said:
Western civilization wasn't built around the Bible.
It was built around the Greek philosophers and scientists. Greece was the birthplace of western civilization, not Israel.
I think Islam and the Arab world is as big a threat to our way of life as you do. Unfortunately our imbecilic leaders want to go to war with Russia and Serbia when they should be our shared allies against a common enemy.
I believe the post-soviet, Russian speaking world would be a much better ally to us than Israel ever was.
When islamic armies besiege the next Vienna, I have no doubt Russia and Serbia will be there to help. Perhaps the next Sobieski will even speak Russian as his native tongue. In the meantime, the Russians hold some very old and quite nakedly revanchist geopolitical notions that are at odds with modern constructions. And THEY invaded a neighbor to take what they thought they were entitled to, not us.
Russia should, indeed, be more worried about its neighbors to its south and west. That they irrationally chose to attack westwards only proves the point I've been making about the costs of ignoring reality - powers make bad decisions, and dealing with the consequences are frightfully expensive, win or lose. Best course of action is to respond quickly and forcefully, to send Pavlovian lessons that will shape future decision-making in a more productive direction.
MOST nations bombed back to the stone age will remember it for a good long while, and calibrate their actions to avoid it.
Then it sounds like a peace treaty right now that lets Russian have the 20% ethnic Russian lands in the east would be smart.
The rest can be Ukrainian and join the EU
Win win
We cannot afford to prematurely end the conflict. Russia must be enfeebled significantly more.
Nobody is going to wipe Russia off the map. But we can cause it to collapse and significantly curtail their ability to wage war for a generation or three.Doc Holliday said:They want Russia wiped off the map and are trying to hoodwink you into believing this is about saving Ukraine.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:I just want to bomb them back to Russia.Sam Lowry said:Did you forget you were talking about Russia, or do you really thinking bombing them back to the Stone Age is a good plan?whiterock said:Yeah, a dog can get numbed to electric collar stimulation. Particularly a tough one. Find one that barks the batteries out of a bark collar., and very often, they become immune to levels of training stimulation that would crumple the average dog. But the vast majority of dogs submit to the collar so thoroughly all you have to do is put the collar on them and they become uber compliant.Sam Lowry said:This may sound odd, but not everyone's policy is controlled by Pavlovian responses.whiterock said:Western Civilization is built on Judeo-Christian philosophical values about the rights & wrongs of social contract, of which the list of examples is quite long. I mean, what European war was fought over Plato vs Socrates? Athens vs. Sparta?The_barBEARian said:
Western civilization wasn't built around the Bible.
It was built around the Greek philosophers and scientists. Greece was the birthplace of western civilization, not Israel.
I think Islam and the Arab world is as big a threat to our way of life as you do. Unfortunately our imbecilic leaders want to go to war with Russia and Serbia when they should be our shared allies against a common enemy.
I believe the post-soviet, Russian speaking world would be a much better ally to us than Israel ever was.
When islamic armies besiege the next Vienna, I have no doubt Russia and Serbia will be there to help. Perhaps the next Sobieski will even speak Russian as his native tongue. In the meantime, the Russians hold some very old and quite nakedly revanchist geopolitical notions that are at odds with modern constructions. And THEY invaded a neighbor to take what they thought they were entitled to, not us.
Russia should, indeed, be more worried about its neighbors to its south and west. That they irrationally chose to attack westwards only proves the point I've been making about the costs of ignoring reality - powers make bad decisions, and dealing with the consequences are frightfully expensive, win or lose. Best course of action is to respond quickly and forcefully, to send Pavlovian lessons that will shape future decision-making in a more productive direction.
MOST nations bombed back to the stone age will remember it for a good long while, and calibrate their actions to avoid it.
Then it sounds like a peace treaty right now that lets Russian have the 20% ethnic Russian lands in the east would be smart.
The rest can be Ukrainian and join the EU
Win win
If you press them hard enough they'll admit it.
historian said:
Israel is not stealing anything from us. The U.S. is investing in regional stability willingly.
You just don't understand geopolitical reality.
Reading your takes on other issues in other threads, I agree with you more often than not.
But on Israel receiving tax dollars you are a madman. And yes, if you are taking a loan with the intention of never paying it back, that is theft.
There is no benefit to funding Israel. Israel clearly stokes more regional chaos. I would like to see the US to become energy independent so we dont have to engage with the middle east at all. They are all a bunch of dirtbags.
That said, I dont care what Israel does so long as they arent a financial drag upon the American tax payer. And if American Jews or extreme sects of Christians want to send their own money to Israel they should absolutely have the freedom to do that.
whiterock said:Nobody is going to wipe Russia off the map. But we can cause it to collapse and significantly curtail their ability to wage war for a generation or three.Doc Holliday said:They want Russia wiped off the map and are trying to hoodwink you into believing this is about saving Ukraine.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:I just want to bomb them back to Russia.Sam Lowry said:Did you forget you were talking about Russia, or do you really thinking bombing them back to the Stone Age is a good plan?whiterock said:Yeah, a dog can get numbed to electric collar stimulation. Particularly a tough one. Find one that barks the batteries out of a bark collar., and very often, they become immune to levels of training stimulation that would crumple the average dog. But the vast majority of dogs submit to the collar so thoroughly all you have to do is put the collar on them and they become uber compliant.Sam Lowry said:This may sound odd, but not everyone's policy is controlled by Pavlovian responses.whiterock said:Western Civilization is built on Judeo-Christian philosophical values about the rights & wrongs of social contract, of which the list of examples is quite long. I mean, what European war was fought over Plato vs Socrates? Athens vs. Sparta?The_barBEARian said:
Western civilization wasn't built around the Bible.
It was built around the Greek philosophers and scientists. Greece was the birthplace of western civilization, not Israel.
I think Islam and the Arab world is as big a threat to our way of life as you do. Unfortunately our imbecilic leaders want to go to war with Russia and Serbia when they should be our shared allies against a common enemy.
I believe the post-soviet, Russian speaking world would be a much better ally to us than Israel ever was.
When islamic armies besiege the next Vienna, I have no doubt Russia and Serbia will be there to help. Perhaps the next Sobieski will even speak Russian as his native tongue. In the meantime, the Russians hold some very old and quite nakedly revanchist geopolitical notions that are at odds with modern constructions. And THEY invaded a neighbor to take what they thought they were entitled to, not us.
Russia should, indeed, be more worried about its neighbors to its south and west. That they irrationally chose to attack westwards only proves the point I've been making about the costs of ignoring reality - powers make bad decisions, and dealing with the consequences are frightfully expensive, win or lose. Best course of action is to respond quickly and forcefully, to send Pavlovian lessons that will shape future decision-making in a more productive direction.
MOST nations bombed back to the stone age will remember it for a good long while, and calibrate their actions to avoid it.
Then it sounds like a peace treaty right now that lets Russian have the 20% ethnic Russian lands in the east would be smart.
The rest can be Ukrainian and join the EU
Win win
If you press them hard enough they'll admit it.
lol America wont be around in a generation if things keep going to way they are. They are running out of productive, compliant Anglos to suck the life and generational wealth out of.
Russia, on the other hand, will be.
But at an expense to us.whiterock said:Nobody is going to wipe Russia off the map. But we can cause it to collapse and significantly curtail their ability to wage war for a generation or three.Doc Holliday said:They want Russia wiped off the map and are trying to hoodwink you into believing this is about saving Ukraine.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:I just want to bomb them back to Russia.Sam Lowry said:Did you forget you were talking about Russia, or do you really thinking bombing them back to the Stone Age is a good plan?whiterock said:Yeah, a dog can get numbed to electric collar stimulation. Particularly a tough one. Find one that barks the batteries out of a bark collar., and very often, they become immune to levels of training stimulation that would crumple the average dog. But the vast majority of dogs submit to the collar so thoroughly all you have to do is put the collar on them and they become uber compliant.Sam Lowry said:This may sound odd, but not everyone's policy is controlled by Pavlovian responses.whiterock said:Western Civilization is built on Judeo-Christian philosophical values about the rights & wrongs of social contract, of which the list of examples is quite long. I mean, what European war was fought over Plato vs Socrates? Athens vs. Sparta?The_barBEARian said:
Western civilization wasn't built around the Bible.
It was built around the Greek philosophers and scientists. Greece was the birthplace of western civilization, not Israel.
I think Islam and the Arab world is as big a threat to our way of life as you do. Unfortunately our imbecilic leaders want to go to war with Russia and Serbia when they should be our shared allies against a common enemy.
I believe the post-soviet, Russian speaking world would be a much better ally to us than Israel ever was.
When islamic armies besiege the next Vienna, I have no doubt Russia and Serbia will be there to help. Perhaps the next Sobieski will even speak Russian as his native tongue. In the meantime, the Russians hold some very old and quite nakedly revanchist geopolitical notions that are at odds with modern constructions. And THEY invaded a neighbor to take what they thought they were entitled to, not us.
Russia should, indeed, be more worried about its neighbors to its south and west. That they irrationally chose to attack westwards only proves the point I've been making about the costs of ignoring reality - powers make bad decisions, and dealing with the consequences are frightfully expensive, win or lose. Best course of action is to respond quickly and forcefully, to send Pavlovian lessons that will shape future decision-making in a more productive direction.
MOST nations bombed back to the stone age will remember it for a good long while, and calibrate their actions to avoid it.
Then it sounds like a peace treaty right now that lets Russian have the 20% ethnic Russian lands in the east would be smart.
The rest can be Ukrainian and join the EU
Win win
If you press them hard enough they'll admit it.
We could spend way too much money on this for far too long and financially screw a generation or three.
whiterock said:Nobody is going to wipe Russia off the map. But we can cause it to collapse and significantly curtail their ability to wage war for a generation or three.Doc Holliday said:They want Russia wiped off the map and are trying to hoodwink you into believing this is about saving Ukraine.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:I just want to bomb them back to Russia.Sam Lowry said:Did you forget you were talking about Russia, or do you really thinking bombing them back to the Stone Age is a good plan?whiterock said:Yeah, a dog can get numbed to electric collar stimulation. Particularly a tough one. Find one that barks the batteries out of a bark collar., and very often, they become immune to levels of training stimulation that would crumple the average dog. But the vast majority of dogs submit to the collar so thoroughly all you have to do is put the collar on them and they become uber compliant.Sam Lowry said:This may sound odd, but not everyone's policy is controlled by Pavlovian responses.whiterock said:Western Civilization is built on Judeo-Christian philosophical values about the rights & wrongs of social contract, of which the list of examples is quite long. I mean, what European war was fought over Plato vs Socrates? Athens vs. Sparta?The_barBEARian said:
Western civilization wasn't built around the Bible.
It was built around the Greek philosophers and scientists. Greece was the birthplace of western civilization, not Israel.
I think Islam and the Arab world is as big a threat to our way of life as you do. Unfortunately our imbecilic leaders want to go to war with Russia and Serbia when they should be our shared allies against a common enemy.
I believe the post-soviet, Russian speaking world would be a much better ally to us than Israel ever was.
When islamic armies besiege the next Vienna, I have no doubt Russia and Serbia will be there to help. Perhaps the next Sobieski will even speak Russian as his native tongue. In the meantime, the Russians hold some very old and quite nakedly revanchist geopolitical notions that are at odds with modern constructions. And THEY invaded a neighbor to take what they thought they were entitled to, not us.
Russia should, indeed, be more worried about its neighbors to its south and west. That they irrationally chose to attack westwards only proves the point I've been making about the costs of ignoring reality - powers make bad decisions, and dealing with the consequences are frightfully expensive, win or lose. Best course of action is to respond quickly and forcefully, to send Pavlovian lessons that will shape future decision-making in a more productive direction.
MOST nations bombed back to the stone age will remember it for a good long while, and calibrate their actions to avoid it.
Then it sounds like a peace treaty right now that lets Russian have the 20% ethnic Russian lands in the east would be smart.
The rest can be Ukrainian and join the EU
Win win
If you press them hard enough they'll admit it.
Why would we want that?
We have been allies with Moscow in two world wars.
And the reason we were against them in the Cold War was because they were ruled by Marxist-communists.
Russia is no longer ruled by the CPSU
Why do you want war with Moscow?