Who was to blame when we assaulted Iraq?FLBear5630 said:Yes, it does if there is to be any credibility. Otherwise, we are just Schill's. To blame Israel or Ukraine for being attacked or invaded is like blaming the victim in an assault.Sam Lowry said:Do you see any trend with your analyses? Does it matter?FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
Netanyahu said "we are at war,"
495,961 Views |
6822 Replies |
Last: 16 min ago by Redbrickbear
Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
As for other Nations, watched too many sacrifice for others to have a lot of tolerance for throwing shade on US. The Government, it is our government even if they do some things I don't agree, can't separate the two. Goes with the territory of taking the good with the bad because for you and I not liking the Macedonia actions there are just as many that support it.
Disagreement in debate, the Republic in action. Gotta love it.
Netanyahu, RIchard Perle, Douglas Feith, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks Jr., Jonathan Torop, David Wurmser, Meyrav Wurmser and IASPS president Robert LoewenbergSam Lowry said:Who was to blame when we assaulted Iraq?FLBear5630 said:Yes, it does if there is to be any credibility. Otherwise, we are just Schill's. To blame Israel or Ukraine for being attacked or invaded is like blaming the victim in an assault.Sam Lowry said:Do you see any trend with your analyses? Does it matter?FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
General Wesley Clark in March 2007
— Timothy Robert (@timingnl) June 18, 2023
"This is a memo that describes how we're going to take out 7 countries in 5 years, starting with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Iran." I said, "Is it classified?" He said,
"Yes, sir." I said, "Well, don't show it to me” pic.twitter.com/p6Fu7YryJR
in case anyone has never seen this clip of Gen Wesley Clark regarding Iraq.
FLBear5630 said:Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
Well in fact I am NOT a member of the Federal Government of the United States.
I am separate from the government.
I am a member of the American Nation....not the U.S. government
[NATION; a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.]
[GOVERNMENT; is the body that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization.]
Merriam - Nation - community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and governmentRedbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
Well in fact I am NOT a member of the Federal Government of the United States.
I am separate from the government.
I am a member of the American Nation....not the U.S. government
[NATION; a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.]
[GOVERNMENT; is the body that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization.]
Sorry, you can't separate yourself from the Government and belong to the Nation. It is your Government, you are a part. You can tell yourself that you are not part of it, but Joe Biden IS your President. But, keep telling yourself, as you are paying your taxes living in Texas, that you are not part of the Government.
FLBear5630 said:Merriam - Nation - community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and governmentRedbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
Well in fact I am NOT a member of the Federal Government of the United States.
I am separate from the government.
I am a member of the American Nation....not the U.S. government
[NATION; a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.]
[GOVERNMENT; is the body that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization.]
Sorry, you can't separate yourself from the Government and belong to the Nation. It is your Government, you are a part. You can tell yourself that you are not part of it, but Joe Biden IS your President. But, keep telling yourself, as you are paying your taxes living in Texas, that you are not part of the Government.
Of course you can....a Nation can even exist without a government.
The Jews were a Nation for 2,000 years and had no government.
The Kurds are a Nation and have no State.
Nation again is not identical to Government/State
Former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett advises that, if necessary, the IDF should take preemptive action against Iran.
— Open Source Intel (@Osint613) August 7, 2024
“I think we shouldn't be waiting to be attacked. Iran is highly vulnerable, much weaker than people think,” pic.twitter.com/pJ1Hard3K4
The Kurds are not a Nation, they are actually the definition of a stateless ethnic group. The Jews were the same until 1948. Palestinians are the same. If they were a Nation, they would have a Government in exile like the Poles and French in WW2.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Merriam - Nation - community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and governmentRedbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
Well in fact I am NOT a member of the Federal Government of the United States.
I am separate from the government.
I am a member of the American Nation....not the U.S. government
[NATION; a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.]
[GOVERNMENT; is the body that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization.]
Sorry, you can't separate yourself from the Government and belong to the Nation. It is your Government, you are a part. You can tell yourself that you are not part of it, but Joe Biden IS your President. But, keep telling yourself, as you are paying your taxes living in Texas, that you are not part of the Government.
Of course you can....a Nation can even exist without a government.
The Jews were a Nation for 2,000 years and had no government.
The Kurds are a Nation and have no State.
Nation again is not identical to Government/State
Parse it however you want, if you are American DC is your Government...
FLBear5630 said:The Kurds are not a Nation, they are actually the definition of a stateless ethnic group. The Jews were the same until 1948. Palestinians are the same.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Merriam - Nation - community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and governmentRedbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
Well in fact I am NOT a member of the Federal Government of the United States.
I am separate from the government.
I am a member of the American Nation....not the U.S. government
[NATION; a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.]
[GOVERNMENT; is the body that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization.]
Sorry, you can't separate yourself from the Government and belong to the Nation. It is your Government, you are a part. You can tell yourself that you are not part of it, but Joe Biden IS your President. But, keep telling yourself, as you are paying your taxes living in Texas, that you are not part of the Government.
Of course you can....a Nation can even exist without a government.
The Jews were a Nation for 2,000 years and had no government.
The Kurds are a Nation and have no State.
Nation again is not identical to Government/State
Nope...they are a nation…a stateless nation but still one
[A stateless nation is a group of people who share a culture and live in a territory, but are not an independent political unit. Stateless nations are often ethnic groups]
You really do think Nation and State are the same thing...wow
FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Merriam - Nation - community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and governmentRedbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
Well in fact I am NOT a member of the Federal Government of the United States.
I am separate from the government.
I am a member of the American Nation....not the U.S. government
[NATION; a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.]
[GOVERNMENT; is the body that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization.]
Sorry, you can't separate yourself from the Government and belong to the Nation. It is your Government, you are a part. You can tell yourself that you are not part of it, but Joe Biden IS your President. But, keep telling yourself, as you are paying your taxes living in Texas, that you are not part of the Government.
Of course you can....a Nation can even exist without a government.
The Jews were a Nation for 2,000 years and had no government.
The Kurds are a Nation and have no State.
Nation again is not identical to Government/State
Parse it however you want, if you are American DC is your Government...
Now you are switching tactics and making a totally different argument.
I never said that if you are an American then DC is not your government.
I said the American Nation is not the same as the government in DC
If they had a UN recognized State then they would have had a government in exile.FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Merriam - Nation - community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and governmentRedbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
Well in fact I am NOT a member of the Federal Government of the United States.
I am separate from the government.
I am a member of the American Nation....not the U.S. government
[NATION; a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.]
[GOVERNMENT; is the body that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization.]
Sorry, you can't separate yourself from the Government and belong to the Nation. It is your Government, you are a part. You can tell yourself that you are not part of it, but Joe Biden IS your President. But, keep telling yourself, as you are paying your taxes living in Texas, that you are not part of the Government.
Of course you can....a Nation can even exist without a government.
The Jews were a Nation for 2,000 years and had no government.
The Kurds are a Nation and have no State.
Nation again is not identical to Government/State
The Jews were the same until 1948. Palestinians are the same. If they were a Nation, they would have a Government in exile like the Poles and French in WW2.
That has nothing to do with the fact of nationhood.
FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Merriam - Nation - community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and governmentRedbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
Well in fact I am NOT a member of the Federal Government of the United States.
I am separate from the government.
I am a member of the American Nation....not the U.S. government
[NATION; a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.]
[GOVERNMENT; is the body that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization.]
Sorry, you can't separate yourself from the Government and belong to the Nation. It is your Government, you are a part. You can tell yourself that you are not part of it, but Joe Biden IS your President. But, keep telling yourself, as you are paying your taxes living in Texas, that you are not part of the Government.
Of course you can....a Nation can even exist without a government.
The Jews were a Nation for 2,000 years and had no government.
The Kurds are a Nation and have no State.
Nation again is not identical to Government/State
Parse it however you want...
Double post
When Israel assassinated the relatively moderate voice of Hamas
— Chay Bowes (@BowesChay) August 6, 2024
They were in the middle of negotiating a ceasefire with him.
The US doesn't seem to know if this was a good or bad thing. pic.twitter.com/Nh6UwzP8mt
In the context that we are discussing, the American Nation and the US Government are one. We are not talking some abstract concept of joint mores when discussing whether DC is the American Nation's Government. Let's settle on Nation-State, better?Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Merriam - Nation - community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and governmentRedbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
Well in fact I am NOT a member of the Federal Government of the United States.
I am separate from the government.
I am a member of the American Nation....not the U.S. government
[NATION; a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.]
[GOVERNMENT; is the body that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization.]
Sorry, you can't separate yourself from the Government and belong to the Nation. It is your Government, you are a part. You can tell yourself that you are not part of it, but Joe Biden IS your President. But, keep telling yourself, as you are paying your taxes living in Texas, that you are not part of the Government.
Of course you can....a Nation can even exist without a government.
The Jews were a Nation for 2,000 years and had no government.
The Kurds are a Nation and have no State.
Nation again is not identical to Government/State
Parse it however you want...
Double post
You may enjoy academic trivia, but we are talking actual cause and effect. The Basque "Nation" has no power, no ability to do anything but folk dances. So, tell us about the American Nation folk dances you take part on when your American Nation meets to celebrate your shared American culture... Let's talk about the ethnic American shared culture in a Nation of Immigrant?
FLBear5630 said:In the context that we are discussing, the American Nation and the US Government are one. We are not talking some abstract concept of joint mores when discussing whether DC is the American Nation's Government. Let's settle on Nation-State, better?Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Merriam - Nation - community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and governmentRedbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
Well in fact I am NOT a member of the Federal Government of the United States.
I am separate from the government.
I am a member of the American Nation....not the U.S. government
[NATION; a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.]
[GOVERNMENT; is the body that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization.]
Sorry, you can't separate yourself from the Government and belong to the Nation. It is your Government, you are a part. You can tell yourself that you are not part of it, but Joe Biden IS your President. But, keep telling yourself, as you are paying your taxes living in Texas, that you are not part of the Government.
Of course you can....a Nation can even exist without a government.
The Jews were a Nation for 2,000 years and had no government.
The Kurds are a Nation and have no State.
Nation again is not identical to Government/State
Parse it however you want...
Double post
You may enjoy academic trivia, but we are talking actual cause and effect. The Basque "Nation" has no power, no ability to do anything but folk dances. So, tell us about the American Nation folk dances you take part on when your American Nation meets to celebrate your shared American culture... Let's talk about the ethnic American shared culture in a Nation of Immigrant?
So America does not have folk dances? Its not a Nation because you think it does not have shared values?
1. American of course does have folk dances...."Square dancing has an honored place as an American folk dance"...along with others of course.
2. What do think the USA is.....an multi-ethnic empire?
That might make more sense why you think the Government is the supreme manifestation of the country....and you think criticism of DC is criticism of America.
3. This becomes even more interesting because the Federal Government is itself just an association of the States that make up the Union. DC has less legitimacy in that regard than does the unitary government of France...which could be argued is the supreme manifestation of the State of the French people.
Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:In the context that we are discussing, the American Nation and the US Government are one. We are not talking some abstract concept of joint mores when discussing whether DC is the American Nation's Government. Let's settle on Nation-State, better?Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Merriam - Nation - community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and governmentRedbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
Well in fact I am NOT a member of the Federal Government of the United States.
I am separate from the government.
I am a member of the American Nation....not the U.S. government
[NATION; a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.]
[GOVERNMENT; is the body that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization.]
Sorry, you can't separate yourself from the Government and belong to the Nation. It is your Government, you are a part. You can tell yourself that you are not part of it, but Joe Biden IS your President. But, keep telling yourself, as you are paying your taxes living in Texas, that you are not part of the Government.
Of course you can....a Nation can even exist without a government.
The Jews were a Nation for 2,000 years and had no government.
The Kurds are a Nation and have no State.
Nation again is not identical to Government/State
Parse it however you want...
Double post
You may enjoy academic trivia, but we are talking actual cause and effect. The Basque "Nation" has no power, no ability to do anything but folk dances. So, tell us about the American Nation folk dances you take part on when your American Nation meets to celebrate your shared American culture... Let's talk about the ethnic American shared culture in a Nation of Immigrant?
So America does not have folk dances? Its not a Nation because you think it does not have shared values?
1. American of course does have folk dances...."Square dancing has an honored place as an American folk dance"...along with others of course.
2. What do think the USA is.....an multi-ethnic empire?
That might make more sense why you think the Government is the supreme manifestation of the country....and you think criticism of DC is criticism of America.
3. This becomes even more interesting because the Federal Government is itself just an association of the States that make up the Union. DC has less legitimacy in that regard than does the unitary government of France...which could be argued is the supreme manifestation of the State of the French people.
It was a joke. An attempt to move on from an endless conversation.
Nation-State, ok?
If you're saying we're responsible for our government, I agree. That certainly doesn't mean we have to take its side on foreign policy issues. If anything it means we should be more critical.
Relatively moderate in comparison to who? Abu Musab Zarqawi?muddybrazos said:When Israel assassinated the relatively moderate voice of Hamas
— Chay Bowes (@BowesChay) August 6, 2024
They were in the middle of negotiating a ceasefire with him.
The US doesn't seem to know if this was a good or bad thing. pic.twitter.com/Nh6UwzP8mt
Yahya Sinwar, obviously.ATL Bear said:Relatively moderate in comparison to who? Abu Musab Zarqawi?muddybrazos said:When Israel assassinated the relatively moderate voice of Hamas
— Chay Bowes (@BowesChay) August 6, 2024
They were in the middle of negotiating a ceasefire with him.
The US doesn't seem to know if this was a good or bad thing. pic.twitter.com/Nh6UwzP8mt
Sam Lowry said:
If you're saying we're responsible for our government, I agree. That certainly doesn't mean we have to take its side on foreign policy issues. If anything it means we should be more critical.
I agree with you. I am saying that the citizens are not separate from their Nation. Like it or not, what DC does reflects on all of us and we are responsible. I have no issues disagreeing within the system. We got caught up in a SAT test argument of the technical definition of "nation". Sorry, should have bowed out!
I think we already knew that
SCOOP: Israel told the U.S. that if Hezbollah harms Israeli civilians as part of its retaliation for the assassination of its top military commander, the IDF's response would be disproportionate. https://t.co/g9r4Wsnkiz
— Axios (@axios) August 7, 2024
trying to find their out...
Iran’s Permanent Mission to the United Nations has stated that their First Priority is and always has been a Ceasefire and Israel’s Withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, and that if these are done they may rethink moving forward with their Retaliatory Strike against Israel.
— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) August 7, 2024
I'm not sure that's the way to find an out. Sounds more like they'll reconsider when pigs fly.boognish_bear said:
trying to find their out...Iran’s Permanent Mission to the United Nations has stated that their First Priority is and always has been a Ceasefire and Israel’s Withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, and that if these are done they may rethink moving forward with their Retaliatory Strike against Israel.
— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) August 7, 2024
The Nazis did NOT come to power in a coup. After the failed Beer Garden Putsch in Munich and Hitler's release from prison, they became a real political party and won elections. They eventually became the majority party in the Reichstag (not an absolute majority, but they had more seats than any other). Hitler was appointed Chancellor by President Paul Hindenburg, a legal & legitimate act but also a huge mistake.
historian said:
The Nazis did NOT come to power in a coup. After the failed Beer Garden Putsch in Munich and Hitler's release from prison, they became a real political party and won elections. They eventually became the majority party in the Reichstag (not an absolute majority, but they had more seats than any other). Hitler was appointed Chancellor by President Paul Hindenburg, a legal & legitimate act but also a huge mistake.
Well the enabling act is often present as a de-facto coup in that it allowed the party to take total control.
Either way….the National Socialist party never got a majority of the German voters to vote for it.
[The Enabling Act of 1933 (officially titled Gesetz zur Behebung der Not von Volk und Reich (lit. 'Law to Remedy the Distress of People and Reich'),[1] was a law that gave the German Cabinet most importantly, the Chancellor the power to make and enforce laws without the involvement of the Reichstag or Weimar President Paul von Hindenburg, leading to the rise of Nazi Germany. Critically, the Enabling Act allowed the Chancellor to bypass the system of checks and balances in the government.]
You must like the Goldhagen thesis but it's flawed. No people (or nation) is completely responsible for everything the nation does or that the leaders do. The Germans bore responsibility for putting Hitler into power and not resisting his tyranny enough but they do not have a shared guilt for the Holocaust in the same level as the perpetrators. Likewise, not all Americans share guilt for all the mistakes of our leaders. I'm not sure I would go so far to say that those who voted for Biden bear some guilt for the failures in Afghanistan, the border, the economy, etc although they certainly are responsible for voting into office someone so obviously incompetent and unqualified.
The Palestinians have a state: Gaza. They had the chance for Judea & Samaria multiple times but rejected it because of their bigotry towards the Jews.
FLBear5630 said:In the context that we are discussing, the American Nation and the US Government are one. We are not talking some abstract concept of joint mores when discussing whether DC is the American Nation's Government. Let's settle on Nation-State, better?Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Merriam - Nation - community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and governmentRedbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Got it. We disagree on your Govt/Nation point. If believing you are separate from your government helps you sleep at night, more power to you...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I don't want to hear Euros, Asians, or others coming out against the US after what the US has done for those Nations in investments and blood, what is even worse is when a US citizen joins them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I was against the Invasion of Iraq and said numerous times it was a mistake. As a citizen of the US, it was my mistake as much as it was Bush's. You cannot separate the citizenship from the "Nation". The Nation is made of its citizens, you act like there is a pristine shadow Nation. The US selling weapons to Ukraine is just as much yours as it is mine. There is no pristine Nation that is untouchable from the decisions of its leaders and citizens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:The Nation is responsible for what the Leadership does. Did the Nazi's represent the German Nation? Of course they did, they put them in power and tolerated their actions. The Nation is held responsible and the people ultimately pay. The 2 are inseparable.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:That is like saying that anything Putin does is really not Russia. Of course it is. The "Nation" does not cease to exist because the President changes. Just like the GB Government doesn't all of a sudden not not represent England because it changes Party.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:FLBear5630 said:Sam,Sam Lowry said:
They're in a corner. They know the West always interprets restraint as weakness, and they know Netanyahu is determined to escalate. The assassinations and other mischief won't stop until Israel gets what it thinks it wants.
Do you see a trend with your analysis?
Ukraine is at fault for Russia's invasion.
Now, Israel is at fault for Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran's attacks on it.
Israel did all this out of the blue, nothing prompted Israel's response?
Don't tell me, Taiwan is at fault for China wanting to invade. The US is at fault for China's expansion into the S China Sea.
Anything else? Is ANYTHING done to provoke NATO, Israel and the US? Or is it all the West fault. Xi and Vlad love you...
and yes, it is always America's fault for Sam and Red. If we'd just stay home and ignore the rest of the world, all the bad guys will evaporate into thin air.
1. You continue to conflate the current DC political class with America.
The American Nation is a real entity and people.
The DC political class is just a ruling regime
The Federal Government of the USA is not the American Nation
2. When did I ever say everything is always the fault of America? You have a link to me saying that?
Well that is an interesting take....that Putin and his regime really embody the Russian people...rather than happen to be ruling over them.
I guess Kim Jong Un and the Communist rulers in Pyongyang is the embodiment of the Korean people.
I know you have a hard time distinguish these two sperate entities...but they are different.
A government is NOT the same as the Nation...its never has been.
If DC decides to invade Iraq...and create a boondoggle of a mess....it is not the American people invading Iraq...but an out of control Federal government and certain political faction.
[NATION: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory]
[Government: the current governing body of a nation, state, or community]
Wow...a dictatorial party (that never got more than 33% of the vote in a general election) that took power in a coup represents the entire German Nation?
Man you really are a government bootlicker....any government that exists anywhere (not matter how it got into power) is the representative and embodiment of the Nation?
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of bugman view of the world.
Strangely enough your view and the Nazi view are eerily similar....the State is the Nation...the Nation is the State.
Very fascistic in fact...Benito Mussolini "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"
"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute...total representative of the Nation"l.
The Nation is responsible for the actions of their leaders, ESPECIALLY someplace like Germany and the cruelty shown by THEIR Government.
Lets not make it a World War II thread....but if you want to hold the German Nation responsible for a political party that took power (without ever winning a majority of the vote) that then quickly banned all other political parties.
Well that is your right.
Needless to say the current government of any country constitutes a State...it is not the same as the Nation itself.
The fact that you can not understand this not very difficult concept is shocking to me.
But I think I am coming to understand how you view attacks on DC policies (aka invading Iraq) as an attack on "America"
America is DC to you....
And yet when the government does something like an Iraq invasion or now (Nuland staging coups and DC funding weapons sales/proxy wars in far off lands) you get upset if people in America stand up and speak out against the actions of the government that claims to represent them....
The State to you is not only the embodiment of the American Nation...but all of us are responsible for its actions...and yet to criticize it is to "attack America"!
Talk about a logical fallacy....the government is us and to criticize it is to attack ourselves!
You have not heard me complain about who you vote for, writing your elected officials, demonstrations or any sort of disagreement. In-house, within the system. I have a problem when people take the other side against the US supporting our enemies. Disagree all you want, demonstrate, but in the end it is in all our best interest for the US to come out on top, if it isn't that person should leave. Change it through the system, not taking the side of Iran or Russa or China. Or some black masked group (ANTIFA, Terror Orgs and such)
I don't hold your conversations here against you, even though we disagree. I may not get why you would take the side so adamantly against a Nation that has allowed almost all of us to have the freedom to post here, make good livings, worship how we want and basically live your life as you choose. But, that is your choice and you can do it without fear of going to jail. That is a great Nation.
I am not sure what having a great Nation has to do with you not wanting to hear gripping from Europeans or Asians?
Some criticism of the US government are understandable...some are not.
The Federal government should get credit with it does something right...like helping to fund the eradication of the Guinea worm in Africa.
[Guinea worms are spread through contaminated drinking water and eating undercooked fish. The female worms, which can be up to 3 feet long once they mature, cause incredibly painful, open blisters usually on the infected person's lower legs and feet through which the worms emerge. It can take a toll for weeks or months, and sometimes permanently...the United States government has long secured funding to help eliminate the disease]
And sometimes the Federal government should get called out...like when it puts pressure on poor countries like Macedonia to sign on for LGTBQ indoctrination..
[In 2004, billboards appeared in the Macedonian capital of Skopje with pictures of gay couples and the slogan "Face Reality, The Campaign to Promote the Rights of Sexual Minorities." At the bottom right corner of each billboard was the seal of the U.S. embassy. The billboards had been purchased by a local gay rights group called the Center for Civil and Human Rights, which two years earlier had received a $20,000 grant from the U.S. government. ]
The point remains that the Government itself is not identical to the Nation.
Well in fact I am NOT a member of the Federal Government of the United States.
I am separate from the government.
I am a member of the American Nation....not the U.S. government
[NATION; a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.]
[GOVERNMENT; is the body that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization.]
Sorry, you can't separate yourself from the Government and belong to the Nation. It is your Government, you are a part. You can tell yourself that you are not part of it, but Joe Biden IS your President. But, keep telling yourself, as you are paying your taxes living in Texas, that you are not part of the Government.
Of course you can....a Nation can even exist without a government.
The Jews were a Nation for 2,000 years and had no government.
The Kurds are a Nation and have no State.
Nation again is not identical to Government/State
Parse it however you want...
Double post
You may enjoy academic trivia, but we are talking actual cause and effect. The Basque "Nation" has no power, no ability to do anything but folk dances. So, tell us about the American Nation folk dances you take part on when your American Nation meets to celebrate your shared American culture... Let's talk about the ethnic American shared culture in a Nation of Immigrant?
The U.S. is multicultural the melting pot. We don't really have a shared "folk culture" like other nations because we are a relatively young country and not founded on the basis of ethnicity. The U.S. is founded on ideas as stated in the Declaration of Independence. Our shared culture includes our national holidays (especially July 4 but also Memorial Day, Flag Day, Thanksgiving, etc), traditions such as g try he flag and the national anthem, and activities (football games, parades, etc). Therefore comparing the U.S. to countries 1,000 years old or more (France, Russia, Japan, China, etc) or cultures, such as the Kurds or Basque is not useful.
historian said:
The Palestinians have a state: Gaza. They had the chance for Judea & Samaria multiple times but rejected it because of their bigotry towards the Jews.
Are you Jewish?
The_barBEARian said:historian said:
The Palestinians have a state: Gaza. They had the chance for Judea & Samaria multiple times but rejected it because of their bigotry towards the Jews.
Are you Jewish?
Does it matter ?
They are ideologically aligned. Perhaps one is more willing to pull the trigger or slice the blade on their enemy, but I guess that's "relative moderation" at the extremes.Sam Lowry said:Yahya Sinwar, obviously.ATL Bear said:Relatively moderate in comparison to who? Abu Musab Zarqawi?muddybrazos said:When Israel assassinated the relatively moderate voice of Hamas
— Chay Bowes (@BowesChay) August 6, 2024
They were in the middle of negotiating a ceasefire with him.
The US doesn't seem to know if this was a good or bad thing. pic.twitter.com/Nh6UwzP8mt
KaiBear said:The_barBEARian said:historian said:
The Palestinians have a state: Gaza. They had the chance for Judea & Samaria multiple times but rejected it because of their bigotry towards the Jews.
Are you Jewish?
Does it matter ?
I'm just fascinated by non-Jews who really buy into this chosen people crap and put the interests of Israel and the Jews above their own self-preservation.
historian said:
You must like the Goldhagen thesis but it's flawed. No people (or nation) is completely responsible for everything the nation does or that the leaders do. The Germans bore responsibility for putting Hitler into power and not resisting his tyranny enough but they do not have a shared guilt for the Holocaust in the same level as the perpetrators. Likewise, not all Americans share guilt for all the mistakes of our leaders. I'm not sure I would go so far to say that those who voted for Biden bear some guilt for the failures in Afghanistan, the border, the economy, etc although they certainly are responsible for voting into office someone so obviously incompetent and unqualified.
Key phrase there is same level as the perpetrators. They bear some responsibility. Germany is the easiest example, they knew. Visit Dachau and tell me Munich/Bavaria didn't know. I love Munich and go when I can. Blame isn't eternal, you correct and go on.
We are talking Social Science, what theory isn't flawed? Was there one good man in Germany? Of course. But the society as a whole bears the blame for what the Government does in their name. Those that believe that left Germany, Vichy, Poland, etc... Its funny, we will say how it wasn't there fault, but you talk to those that did fight it and they say we should have knew.
I know many consider this conversation not what this Board is for. But I think these conversations are good and need to happen periodically. Agree or not.
historian said:
The U.S. is multicultural the melting pot. We don't really have a shared "folk culture" like other nations because we are a relatively young country and not founded on the basis of ethnicity. The U.S. is founded on ideas as stated in the Declaration of Independence. Our shared culture includes our national holidays (especially July 4 but also Memorial Day, Flag Day, Thanksgiving, etc), traditions such as g try he flag and the national anthem, and activities (football games, parades, etc). Therefore comparing the U.S. to countries 1,000 years old or more (France, Russia, Japan, China, etc) or cultures, such as the Kurds or Basque is not useful.
The United States was founded by anglo-saxon protestants. Its revolution was fought by them. Its founding documents were written by them. It was never intend to be a multicultural nation. In fact no stable nation is a multicultural nation. You can be a multiethnic, monocultural nation which is what e pluribus unum is referring to.
Also, it is curious that you chose to exclude Christmas and Easter - the two most important dates on the calendar - from the list of our national holidays.
The_barBEARian said:KaiBear said:The_barBEARian said:historian said:
The Palestinians have a state: Gaza. They had the chance for Judea & Samaria multiple times but rejected it because of their bigotry towards the Jews.
Are you Jewish?
Does it matter ?
I'm just fascinated by non-Jews who really by into this chosen people crap and put the interests of Israel and the Jews above their own self-preservation.
If one is a practicing Christian; belief in the Bible and its messages are fundamental to our world view.
To you it is 'crap'.
To many of us it is a matter of Faith.
In additional the geo political realities of the Middle East give cause for supporting the only democratic country in the region.
Although I do agree the amount of support we give that only democratic country is excessive.