Osodecentx said:

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KaiBear said:

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For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor. I don't believe (nor have you said" he sacrificed Pearl.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

---

Then why keep bringing it up ?

KaiBear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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KaiBear said:

---

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor. I don't believe (nor have you said" he sacrificed Pearl.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

---

Then why keep bringing it up ?

---

I haven't

Redbrickbear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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historian said:

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That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

---

Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

.

---

Unpopular opinion but the Philippines would be better off under American rule

And Manchuria better off under the Japanese today

De-colonization has not exactly been a massive success

And Americans and Japanese are very good a creating jobs, business opportunities, and good governance

---

No way!

The Japanese committed horrific atrocities in Manchuria and China. They would NOT be better off under Japanese rule.
The Japanese were horribly racist towards both Chinese and Korean people.

---

Not under the rule of the war mongering Imperial Japanese

I mean the hard working, efficient, industrious Japanese of today.

Lee Kaun Yew talked about their character

---

it just proves that Manchuria doesn't need Japanese Imperialism to prosper. All they need is freedom, capitalism and protection from invasion/attack. The same is true for Taiwan. Taiwan is proof that the Chinese will be massively prosperous once they are free from the oppression of communism.

---

No,

But they would do better under the governance of Japan (modern Japan) than they would under the Communists in Beijing

That was the point

---

OK.
I see what you are trying to say here.
Yes, I think modern Japan would be far better for the people of North Korea than the PRC... no doubt.

historian said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

---

"I will bless those who bless Jesus, And I will curse him who curses Jesus; And in Jesus all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:3

This promise from God does not have an expiration date.

---

Christ is King.

---

This might be the only post of yours I can agree with.

But all of your other posts violate Christ's second greatest commandment. Your hatred of Israel and the Jewish people reeks.

"And he said to them, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Matthew 22:37-39

---

I don't irrationally hate them.

I believe Israel should apologize for the USS Liberty and should compensate the families of the victims w/ interest.

I believe Israel should stop killing Christians in the Middle East and selling weapons to Azerbajin that are being used to kill Christians in Armenia.

I believe IDF soldiers of the "world's most moral army" should stop gang-raping white, English teens on holiday in Cyprus.

I believe AIPAC should be classified as a foreign agent like any other lobbyist group working on behalf of a foreign government.

And above all, I believe Israel should truly act like a "greatest ally" and stop abusing the good will of the American tax payer.

Shouldnt "love thy neighbor as thyself" apply both ways?

KaiBear said:

---

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

And he was hoping for it

Roosevelt came from that faction of the U.S. ruling class that really wanted to get America into WWII

(and in the end he got his wish....japan was stupid enough to attack...and Hitler stupid enough to follow up and declare war)


[Yes, despite initially maintaining a policy of neutrality, President Franklin D. Roosevelt actively sought ways to support the Allied powers in World War II, effectively maneuvering the United States closer to entering the conflict, even before the attack on Pearl Harbor which ultimately forced the country to officially declare war]

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

And he was hoping for it

Roosevelt came from that faction of the U.S. ruling class that really wanted to get America into WWII

(and in the end he got his wish....japan was stupid enough to attack...and Hitler stupid enough to declare war)

---

After months of US warships attacking German submarines in an undeclared war…..Hitler thought declaring war on the US made little difference.

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

And he was hoping for it

Roosevelt came from that faction of the U.S. ruling class that really wanted to get America into WWII

(and in the end he got his wish....japan was stupid enough to attack...and Hitler stupid enough to follow up and declare war)


[Yes, despite initially maintaining a policy of neutrality, President Franklin D. Roosevelt actively sought ways to support the Allied powers in World War II, effectively maneuvering the United States closer to entering the conflict, even before the attack on Pearl Harbor which ultimately forced the country to officially declare war]

---

Roosevelt was right.

KaiBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

And he was hoping for it

Roosevelt came from that faction of the U.S. ruling class that really wanted to get America into WWII

(and in the end he got his wish....japan was stupid enough to attack...and Hitler stupid enough to declare war)

---

After months of US warships attacking German submarines in an undeclared war…..Hitler thought declaring war on the US made little difference.

---

Well like attacking the USSR...he was wrong about that

The US went from attacking his subs to our right mobilizing against him for a massive military campaign

16 million armed service personnel by the end of the war being mobilized by the USA

[U.S. involvement in WWII grew to be about 16,000,000 military personnel by the war's end: approximately 11,200,000 in the Army, 4,200,000 in the Navy, and 660,000 in the Marine Corps]

Honestly, with the amount of charity Israel has received... it is pathetic they haven't done so much more.

As you all have pointed out, Japan and Germany rebuilt their entire countries, despite the loss of several generations of working age men, with a fraction of the support Israel has received and most of that support was in the form of loans that were repaid many times over.

Japan and Germany are the real miracles.

Osodecentx said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

And he was hoping for it

Roosevelt came from that faction of the U.S. ruling class that really wanted to get America into WWII

(and in the end he got his wish....japan was stupid enough to attack...and Hitler stupid enough to follow up and declare war)


[Yes, despite initially maintaining a policy of neutrality, President Franklin D. Roosevelt actively sought ways to support the Allied powers in World War II, effectively maneuvering the United States closer to entering the conflict, even before the attack on Pearl Harbor which ultimately forced the country to officially declare war]

---

Roosevelt was right.

---

Maybe

That is a interesting argument that we will never know the answer to.

As far as Europe went a Nazi victory or a USSR victory would/did mean most of the continent was under the control of a totalitarian socialist party with a dictator at the head.

Asia is harder to determine...communist China would probably never have come into existence with a japanese victory.

Importantly the USA and UK would probably have formed a powerful military alliance like NATO (USA-Canada-UK-Australia) and have been fine in the end....especially since by 1945 the USA would have had atomic weapons.

Its hard to know....but interesting to speculate about

Osodecentx said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

And he was hoping for it

Roosevelt came from that faction of the U.S. ruling class that really wanted to get America into WWII

(and in the end he got his wish....japan was stupid enough to attack...and Hitler stupid enough to follow up and declare war)


[Yes, despite initially maintaining a policy of neutrality, President Franklin D. Roosevelt actively sought ways to support the Allied powers in World War II, effectively maneuvering the United States closer to entering the conflict, even before the attack on Pearl Harbor which ultimately forced the country to officially declare war]

---

Roosevelt was right.

---

Also correct.

The_barBEARian said:

---

Honestly, with the amount of charity Israel has received... it is pathetic they haven't done so much more.

As you all have pointed out, Japan and Germany rebuilt their entire countries, despite the loss of several generations of working age men, with a fraction of the support Israel has received and most of that support was in the form of loans that were repaid many times over.

Japan and Germany are the real miracles.

---

You are joking right?

America and our allies spent billions of dollars rebuilding Germany and Japan after WW2.

And when you consider that half of Germany was our enemy for 50 years... yeah... not even close to a good comparison.

Most people only look at the Marshall Plan money, but you have to remember that we spent billions of dollars through our military. Germany was not supposed to maintain a large army. No one in Europe wanted them to have a major army after they started 2 world wars.

Likewise, the US spent billions over the decades in Japan. We have maintained military bases and naval assets around Japan since 1948. When you add up all the DOD money on top of the direct aid.... it is a staggering amount. It is even more staggering when you consider that Japan has never been under attack, while Israel has been attacked repeatedly for it's entire 70+ years of existence.

No one is going to argue that Germany and Japan are unsuccessful. It's just kinda dumb to argue that they did it completely on their own. And neither of them has been under the kind of opposition that the Jews have faced in Israel.

Look, we have discussed many times in the past that we both hate foreign aid. I just don't think that your nearly as angry about foreign aid to the UK as you are about foreign aid to the only Jewish state on the planet. And yes, we still give around $1,000,000,000 each year to the UK... why?

You just need to admit to yourself and the world, that you truly hate the Jews.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

And he was hoping for it

Roosevelt came from that faction of the U.S. ruling class that really wanted to get America into WWII

(and in the end he got his wish....japan was stupid enough to attack...and Hitler stupid enough to follow up and declare war)


[Yes, despite initially maintaining a policy of neutrality, President Franklin D. Roosevelt actively sought ways to support the Allied powers in World War II, effectively maneuvering the United States closer to entering the conflict, even before the attack on Pearl Harbor which ultimately forced the country to officially declare war]

---

Roosevelt was right.

---

Maybe

That is a interesting argument that we will never know the answer to.

As far as Europe went a Nazi victory or a USSR victory would/did mean most of the continent was under the control of a totalitarian socialist party with a dictator at the head.

Asia is harder to determine...communist China would probably never have come into existence with a japanese victory.

Importantly the USA and UK would probably have formed a powerful military alliance like NATO (USA-Canada-UK-Australia) and have been fine in the end....especially since by 1945 the USA would have had atomic weapons.

Its hard to know....but interesting to speculate about

---

Yep

ShooterTX said:

---

Land changes over time... and it never has anything to do with someone driving a F-350 instead of a Prius.

---

I have to admit,"climate change is proof that modern Israel has God's blessing" wasn't what I was expecting, even given your vehicular disclaimer.

Modern Isreal is a creation of the United Nations. It is the antichrist's stage. Zero reason we should bankrupt ourselves on its behalf.

ShooterTX said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Is China blessed by God? It is the world's largest economy today. Saudi Arabia and the UAE? There are a lot of ways to build wealth. Prosperity is not prima facie evidence of divine blessing.

You say, "Before the Jews began to repopulate the land... it was just a worthless desert in the eyes of the world."

How does this square with the Bible's description of it from Numbers 13 before the Jews ever got there?

"Now they departed and came back to Moses and Aaron and all the congregation of the children of Israel in the Wilderness of Paran, at Kadesh; they brought back word to them and to all the congregation, and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 Then they told him, and said: "We went to the land where you sent us. It truly [g]flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit."

---

LOL

I am talking about the land in the late 1880s to the 1940s.

Land across the globe has undergone many changes over the centuries. For example, during the Roman empire, North Africa was described as the "bread basket of Rome" because of the plentiful wheat fields. Can you imagine endless wheat fields in modern day Tunisia, Libya, Africa, Morocco, and Egypt? Obviously, something happened after the fall of Rome.

Yes, the lands of ancient Israel were described as the land of "milk & honey". But if you look at records from the turn of the century, you will see that the majority of the land of Israel was described as worthless desert. This is partly why the population of the region of Palestine was extremely sparse compared to the rest of the region.

Things began to change when the Jews began to buy pieces of worthless land in the 1890s. They moved in and began to work the lands. They dug new wells and in many cases turned "worthless deserts" into prosperous farmlands.

If you go far back enough, you will discover that the land we now know as Iraq and Iran was once a fertile land of amazing crops, vineyards, orchards and livestock. No one would describe it that way today.

Land changes over time... and it never has anything to do with someone driving a F-350 instead of a Prius.

---

In ancient times the land between the Tigris & Euphrates rivers, modern Iraq, was a major part of the Fertile Crescent.

ShooterTX said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Honestly, with the amount of charity Israel has received... it is pathetic they haven't done so much more.

As you all have pointed out, Japan and Germany rebuilt their entire countries, despite the loss of several generations of working age men, with a fraction of the support Israel has received and most of that support was in the form of loans that were repaid many times over.

Japan and Germany are the real miracles.

---

You are joking right?

America and our allies spent billions of dollars rebuilding Germany and Japan after WW2.

And when you consider that half of Germany was our enemy for 50 years... yeah... not even close to a good comparison.

Most people only look at the Marshall Plan money, but you have to remember that we spent billions of dollars through our military. Germany was not supposed to maintain a large army. No one in Europe wanted them to have a major army after they started 2 world wars.

Likewise, the US spent billions over the decades in Japan. We have maintained military bases and naval assets around Japan since 1948. When you add up all the DOD money on top of the direct aid.... it is a staggering amount. It is even more staggering when you consider that Japan has never been under attack, while Israel has been attacked repeatedly for it's entire 70+ years of existence.

No one is going to argue that Germany and Japan are unsuccessful. It's just kinda dumb to argue that they did it completely on their own. And neither of them has been under the kind of opposition that the Jews have faced in Israel.

Look, we have discussed many times in the past that we both hate foreign aid. I just don't think that your nearly as angry about foreign aid to the UK as you are about foreign aid to the only Jewish state on the planet. And yes, we still give around $1,000,000,000 each year to the UK... why?

You just need to admit to yourself and the world, that you truly hate the Jews.

---

I wasn't aware we gave $1,000,000,000 each year to the UK.

Is that true?

You are right to point our how appalling that is and that is why I support cutting ALL foreign aid.

I would absolutely not include money spent on US military bases occupying territory as aid since many in Japan specifically have been very vocal about not wanting US bases on their soil. It was forced upon them to keep them in line. Not saying it wasnt the right move to make, just that calling it "aid" is like throwing a grenade at someone and calling it a baseball.

The fact that these countries were not allowed to govern themselves and have their own militaries even further proves my point of how exceptional their rebuild has been and to act like the $15 billion we spent in the Marshall Plan is even remotely comparable to the hundreds of billions we have given Israel is completely ludicrous.

Simply put, Germany and Japan did more with less.

You cannot claim the state of Israel is some kind of miracle and turn around and dismiss what Germany and Japan have accomplished with literally entire generations of working age men destroyed by war.

Regarding your last sentence, you need to stop acting so emotional... like a woman. Criticizing bad actors is entirely reasonable and I have always provided very valid reasons for why I believe Israel is a scumbag country. It is a fact that over of the course of the last 12 months, Jews/Israel have killed more people on earth than any other group - more have been killed in Gaza than Ukraine.

Last I checked murder is more hateful than not worshipping someone who treats you like *****

Don't discount God's role in all that. He is a major reason for Israel having those characteristics and gif their success with it. Perhaps He did something similar for Chiba but they had a head start with the fertility of the land. Strictly from the perspective of secular history, Central China is one of the places where human civilization first developed precisely because of fertile land along the Yellow River and regular flooding that enriched the soil annually (same as the Nile).

Realitybites said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Land changes over time... and it never has anything to do with someone driving a F-350 instead of a Prius.

---

I have to admit,"climate change is proof that modern Israel has God's blessing" wasn't what I was expecting, even given your vehicular disclaimer.

Modern Isreal is a creation of the United Nations. It is the antichrist's stage. Zero reason we should bankrupt ourselves on its behalf.

---

A small part of me feels sympathy for Shooter and historian because when they move on to the afterlife they are going to realize they were Satan's puppets the entire time by supporting his armies on earth.

Historically, America's greatest ally has always been the UK. Or at least since WWI. Antisemites like to conflate our relationship with Israel. It is important for unique religious and cultural reasons but there is no reason to exaggerate it.

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

And he was hoping for it

Roosevelt came from that faction of the U.S. ruling class that really wanted to get America into WWII

(and in the end he got his wish....japan was stupid enough to attack...and Hitler stupid enough to follow up and declare war)


[Yes, despite initially maintaining a policy of neutrality, President Franklin D. Roosevelt actively sought ways to support the Allied powers in World War II.]

---

This is essentially correct. I've deleted the last part that is a more conspiratorial interpretation not supported by events.

KaiBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

And he was hoping for it

Roosevelt came from that faction of the U.S. ruling class that really wanted to get America into WWII

(and in the end he got his wish....japan was stupid enough to attack...and Hitler stupid enough to declare war)

---

After months of US warships attacking German submarines in an undeclared war…..Hitler thought declaring war on the US made little difference.

---

More precisely, defending American merchant ships from German submarines. However, no doubt they attacked too. It was an undeclared naval war. When Hitler declared war on us after Pearl Harbor, he was simply acknowledging the reality of the situation.

Arguably, we might have ended up at war with Germany anyway. Hitler made it direct and immediate. For those Americans who thought such a war inevitable & necessary, he certainly made it simpler. It also is likely one of Hitler's biggest mistakes (some historians think it was the biggest) because Germany now began to feel the full might of the greatest industrial power in human history. Another twist: because if FDR's special relationship with Winston Churchill, US strategy was to focus on defeating Germany first then turn our attention on Japan.

It really is amazing: the US essentially fought two huge wars simultaneously on opposite sides of the planet and proved decisive in winning both. I should add that the war in Europe was fought mostly on land and was primarily won on the eastern front. The Soviet Union bore the greatest costs and highest casualties of the war (largely because of Stalin).

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

And he was hoping for it

Roosevelt came from that faction of the U.S. ruling class that really wanted to get America into WWII

(and in the end he got his wish....japan was stupid enough to attack...and Hitler stupid enough to declare war)

---

After months of US warships attacking German submarines in an undeclared war…..Hitler thought declaring war on the US made little difference.

---

Well like attacking the USSR...he was wrong about that

The US went from attacking his subs to our right mobilizing against him for a massive military campaign

16 million armed service personnel by the end of the war being mobilized by the USA

[U.S. involvement in WWII grew to be about 16,000,000 military personnel by the war's end: approximately 11,200,000 in the Army, 4,200,000 in the Navy, and 660,000 in the Marine Corps]

---

Hitlers blunder was not declaring war on the United States. He believed he was honoring his alliance with Japan. ( However the Japanese never reciprocated such loyalty by declaring war on the Soviet Union ).

Hitlers incredible blunder was ignoring his None Aggression treaty with Stalin and invading the Soviet Union.

For all those Americans numbers the Germans had at least 70% of their army and almost all of their best divisions fighting the Russians on the eastern front.

And even after D DAY it was only overwhelming Allied air superiority that allowed Allied troops to advance into Germany.

But movies like Patton, Fury and a host of others always portray the Germans as horrible soldiers who can't shoot the side of a barn while the Americans mow them down with Tommy Guns.

KaiBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

---

And he was hoping for it

Roosevelt came from that faction of the U.S. ruling class that really wanted to get America into WWII

(and in the end he got his wish....japan was stupid enough to attack...and Hitler stupid enough to declare war)

---

After months of US warships attacking German submarines in an undeclared war…..Hitler thought declaring war on the US made little difference.

---

Well like attacking the USSR...he was wrong about that

The US went from attacking his subs to our right mobilizing against him for a massive military campaign

16 million armed service personnel by the end of the war being mobilized by the USA

[U.S. involvement in WWII grew to be about 16,000,000 military personnel by the war's end: approximately 11,200,000 in the Army, 4,200,000 in the Navy, and 660,000 in the Marine Corps]

---

Hitlers blunder was not declaring war on the United States. He believed he was honoring his alliance with Japan. ( However the Japanese never reciprocated such loyalty by declaring war on the Soviet Union ).

1. Hitlers incredible blunder was ignoring his None Aggression treaty with Stalin and invading the Soviet Union.

For all those Americans numbers the Germans had at least 70% of their army and almost all of their best divisions fighting the Russians on the eastern front.

And even after D DAY it was only overwhelming Allied air superiority that allowed Allied troops to advance into Germany.

2. But movies like Patton, Fury and a host of others always portray the Germans as horrible soldiers who can't shoot the side of a barn while the Americans mow them down with Tommy Guns.

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1. True...it was a big mistake


2. Yep, Statistically the German army was a better fighting force than anyone else in WWII

[Max Visser argues that the German Army focused on achieving high combat performance rather than high organisational efficiency (like the US Army). It emphasized adaptability, flexibility, and decentralized decision making. Officers and NCOs were selected based on character and trained towards decisive combat leadership. Good combat performance was rewarded. Visser argues this allowed the German Army to achieve superior combat performance compared to a more traditional organisational doctrine like the American one; while this would be ultimately offset by the Allies' superior numerical and materiel advantage, Visser argues that this allowed the German Army to resist far longer than if it had not adopted this method of organisation and doctrine. Pete Turchin reports a study by US colonel Trevor Dupuy found that German combat efficiency was higher than both the British and US armies if a combat efficiency of 1 was assigned to the British, then the Americans had a combat efficiency of 1.1 and the Germans of 1.45. This would mean British forces would need to commit 45% more troops (or arm existing troops more heavily to the same proportion) to have an even chance of winning the battle, while the Americans would need to commit 30% more to have an even chance.]

The alliance did not obligate Hitler to declare war. He could have done what Japan did by staying out. Invading the Soviet Union was probably the bigger blunder. We also have the benefit of hindsight.

What is truly amazing about both world wars is how close Germany came to winning. Like Napoleon, the Kaiser, and others (Louis XIV), he learned the hard way that one cannot win a war against everyone else, especially with weak allies (Italy, not Japan). The balance of power system worked.

historian said:

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The alliance did not obligate Hitler to declare war. He could have done what Japan did by staying out. Invading the Soviet Union was probably the bigger blunder. We also have the benefit of hindsight.

What is truly amazing about both world wars is how close Germany came to winning. Like Napoleon, the Kaiser, and others (Louis XIV), he learned the hard way that one cannot win a war against everyone else, especially with weak allies (Italy, not Japan). The balance of power system worked.

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Bottom line

If Hitler doesn't invade the Soviet Union …..Germany does not lose WW2.

With or without the entry of the US.


Germany could have never won the war either.
They didn't have a strong enough navy.

Eventually there would have been a truce.

KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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The alliance did not obligate Hitler to declare war. He could have done what Japan did by staying out. Invading the Soviet Union was probably the bigger blunder. We also have the benefit of hindsight.

What is truly amazing about both world wars is how close Germany came to winning. Like Napoleon, the Kaiser, and others (Louis XIV), he learned the hard way that one cannot win a war against everyone else, especially with weak allies (Italy, not Japan). The balance of power system worked.

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Bottom line

If Hitler doesn't invade the Soviet Union …..Germany does not lose WW2.

With or without the entry of the US.


Germany could have never won the war either.
They didn't have a strong enough navy.

Eventually there would have been a truce.

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Actually a very likely scenario. Could UK have survived? They were isolated and German submarines would have made survival a difficult proposition

BREAKING: Axios has confirmed that Israel has launched its retaliatory strikes against Iran in the last thirty minutes

— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) October 25, 2024

SCOOP: Israel sent a message to Iran ahead of its retaliatory airstrikes warning the Iranians not to respond, three sources with knowledge of the issue told @BarakRavid. https://t.co/fc8PsOT1V8

— Axios (@axios) October 26, 2024

With all these "pre-strike" messages and leaks, I'm starting to wonder how much of this Israel-Iran portion of this is Kabuki theater.

...apparently I am not the only one thinking this.

"there's an emerging consensus among Western pundits that this was remarkably limited in scale. The attack did not involve Iranian nuclear or oil sites, according to Israeli military officials."

Iran informed Israel through a foreign mediator that it will not respond to Israel's attack.

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) October 26, 2024

FLBear5630 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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Iran informed Israel through a foreign mediator that it will not respond to Israel's attack.

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) October 26, 2024

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This is an exit ramp. Even Iran is figuring it out that war is not in anyone's best interest Only true psychos like Putin and NKorea seem to want it.

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Yep...I wasn't expecting this response from Iran. Hope it's true.

“Last night, Israel sent a powerful message to the world: it is a nation committed to peace and reason,”

says Emirati geopolitical expert @amjadt25.

“Despite possessing the strength to escalate and even destroy Iran, Israel opted instead to expose Tehran's vulnerability,… pic.twitter.com/4Kt37Salts

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) October 26, 2024