KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

The U.S. was not coerced or tricked into WWI. We entered with our eyes open & for very good reasons, particularly the Zimmerman Telegram. Wilson made many mistakes before, during, & after the war but the declaration of war was sound. Curiously, we did NOT have any formal alliances during the war. We cooperated with the allies because of common enemies and the US was the primary reason for allied victory: millions of fresh soldiers that had not spent 3 years in the trenches & the largest economy in human history.

FDR signed the Neutrality Acts (plural) into law for political reasons. He might have had second thoughts but he understood the popular attitude while the Great depression was still devastating many people. That didn't change significantly until the war in Europe began. FDR then provided various forms of aid, stretching & even violating the Neutrality Acts out of necessity.

Lend Lease was a recognition of geopolitical realities in the North Atlantic: the US was already in an undeclared naval war with Germany and it was definitely in our interest to help the British (& later the Soviets) defeat Germany. Britain still had the largest navy on the planet and we absolutely did not want to see that under Hitler's control.

True, Stalin replaced Hitler as the bogeyman after the war but that was not clear to everyone until 1948-49. In the immediate aftermath of the war, we managed to work with the Soviets reasonably well, at least in postwar policies in Europe. We had more difficulties with France then!

By the way, Stalin was much worse than Hitler but he was our ally. We really fight have much choice in that. It was a decision made by Hitler. Done historians thinking his deviating war on the US after Pearl Harbor was his biggest mistake. That is arguably true but Hitler made lots of huge mistakes and the world is better off for it. Dictators tend to do that.

sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

The Iron Curtain was real. Stalin controlled mist of Eastern Europe. The commie governments there were puppet regime. That was clear in Czechoslovakia (1846 & 1968), Eat Germany (1953), Hungary (1956), Poland repeatedly, etc. a primary reason the 1989 revolutions were peaceful & successful was that Gorbachev was willing to let them happen: he chose NOT to be another Stalin because he understood somewhat the failures of communism economically.

Stalin killed his millions, starting before the war in Europe began (the Holodomor, for example, in Ukraine). One of the reasons the Soviets had the highest death toll in the war, by far, was Stalin's total ruthlessness & paranoia. He also helped Hitler to start the war by allying with him in late August 1939. He was a much worse monster but that's often forgotten because he was our ally and American commies loved him, some because they were bought off.

Geopolitics tends to be complicated!

Korea & Vietnam included their share of mistakes but from the Cold War perspective, they made plenty of sense at the time. Same with Iraq. I'm not sure Iraq & Afghanistan ever justified a 20 year commitment. At least the American death toll was much lower, if that's any consolation.

historian said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

The Iron Curtain was real. Stalin controlled mist of Eastern Europe. The commie governments there were puppet regime. That was clear in Czechoslovakia (1846 & 1968), Eat Germany (1953), Hungary (1956), Poland repeatedly, etc. a primary reason the 1989 revolutions were peaceful & successful was that Gorbachev was willing to let them happen: he chose NOT to be another Stalin because he understood somewhat the failures of communism economically.

Stalin killed his millions, starting before the war in Europe began (the Holodomor, for example, in Ukraine). One of the reasons the Soviets had the highest death toll in the war, by far, was Stalin's total ruthlessness & paranoia. He also helped Hitler to start the war by allying with him in late August 1939. He was a much worse monster but that's often forgotten because he was our ally and American commies loved him, some because they were bought off.

Geopolitics tends to be complicated!

---

The iron curtain was real, and we had a short marriage of convenience with Stalin, but communism proved to be the real tyrant as its ethos warped the power structures of Eastern Europe and East Asia as well as dipping its toes into Africa and South America to brutal tyranny and death tolls.

True but non of those postwar realities were apparent or clear before or during the war. As I said before, we actually had a decent working relationship with the Soviets in the immediate aftermath of the war.

By the time FDR died, much had changed:

-Truman had a very different personality & opinion of people & countries than FDR.
-Truman became president largely ignorant of the decisions behind the scenes. FDR had not kept him informed or involved him in policy discussions. He did not know about the details of the Yalta agreements, for example.
-The US was by far the most powerful nation on the planet. We had the largest economy in human history, almost equal to the rest of the world, and we were on the brink of winning two wars simultaneously on opposite sides of the planet.
-The Manhattan Project was nearing a successful completion. It began as a very big, & very expensive, gamble with an outcome that was uncertain.
-The traditional great powers of Europe were greatly weakened by two world wars & about to lose most, if not all, of their colonial empires. This had begun before the war and accelerated after.
-The Soviets were emerging as the main power in Eastern Europe (really the only great power in all of Europe) primarily because of doing the hardest fighting in defeating Hitler, with lots of Lend Lease aid.

historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

historian said:

---

True but non of those postwar realities were apparent or clear before or during the war. As I said before, we actually had a decent working relationship with the Soviets in the immediate aftermath of the war.

By the time FDR died, much had changed:

-Truman had a very different personality & opinion of people & countries than FDR.
-Truman became president largely ignorant of the decisions behind the scenes. FDR had not kept him informed or involved him in policy discussions. He did not know about the details of the Yalta agreements, for example.
-The US was by far the most powerful nation on the planet. We had the largest economy in human history, almost equal to the rest of the world, and we were on the brink of winning two wars simultaneously on opposite sides of the planet.
-The Manhattan Project was nearing a successful completion. It began as a very big, & very expensive, gamble with an outcome that was uncertain.
-The traditional great powers of Europe were greatly weakened by two world wars & about to lose most, if not all, of their colonial empires. This had begun before the war and accelerated after.
-The Soviets were emerging as the main power in Eastern Europe (really the only great power in all of Europe) primarily because of doing the hardest fighting in defeating Hitler, with lots of Lend Lease aid.

---

The USSR was also greatly weakened after WW2. We basically awarded them Eastern Europe, which was a longer term blunder it turns out. Had we followed Patton's recommendation, who knows how the Cold War years would have played out? Having demonstrated our nuclear capability, an actual hardline on independent determination post WW2 for many of the previously Nazi controlled countries would have been a possible if not prudent step.

KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

historian said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

Very unrealistic and unprovable assumptions. No one knows what would have happened had the US entered WWII earlier. I don't think the US death toll was 500k but I don't think anyone knows for sure. I've seen many estimates over the past 40 years & they seem to be creeping upward gradually. Same with total deaths.

American isolationism was real. That was the attitude of most people until Pearl Harbor. That changed 180 degrees when we were attacked. Suddenly the American people were united almost 100%, more than any other war in our history.

Your description of Trump's foreign policy sounds like he was a hawk but he spent much of his time withdrawing the US forces from all those conflicts with significant success. Trump inherited a bad position for the US from Obama. Biden is remembered for the disastrous Afghanistan withdrawal but people seem to forget that it began under Trump and was proceeding successfully. Disaster could have been avoided had Biden only maintained Trump's policy (same with the US border, the economy, & everything else).

---

Hawk? Dove? That doesn't matter. We were in every nation at the end of Trump's tenure that we were when he came in. Why? Because Trump learned we were there for a reason and he couldn't responsibly pulled us out. Biden the idiot he is just pulled us out.

Trump talks election rhetoric, let's see what he does when he sees the actual data. My bet, like last time is we will be where we are now.

You guys are too caught up on labels. Decisions are made based on needs at the time. Trump will not abandon strategic positions and will respond within 6 months somewhere to send a message.

FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Realitybites said:

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whiterock said:

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Kai is trying to argue that since war never eliminates tyranny or imperialism, etc...., there is no point in resisting it anytime, anywhere.

---

Not at all.

We just disagree with your side about who the tyrants and imperialists are.
Oh that is crystal clear. It's always us, according to you.

A NATO that has been edging ever eastward at the behest of the MIC in violation of the promises we made to the Russians is much more aptly described as imperialists than a Russia that has moved to secure some neighboring territories populated by Russians.
So what? Zero chance the Russians ever thought Baker's "promise" meant "never." The context was....the USSR was collapsing and we wanted to assure Russia we were not going to rush in and play Risk all the way to the Russian border. And we didn't. We were very deliberate, over the course of many years taking new members. Yes, we admitted the Baltics. Because they asked. We did not admit Finland or Sweden, who didn't ask until RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE. Neither did we admit Belarus or Ukraine, latter of which DID NOT APPLY FOR NATO MEMBERSHIP UNTIL INVADED BY RUSSIA. Same for anybody in the Caucasus. We didn't push east. East begged us to come in. More to the point WE INVADED NOBODY.

Likewise EU member states who are banning political parties, prohibiting the freedom of religion, and arresting people for thought crime are the tyrants. In fact since Covid there hasn't been much daylight between the behavior of those article 5 "allies" of ours and the CCP.
The idea that Europe is a greater police state that Russia is comical, but even if we admit your silly premise, it's worth nothing we've had a lot of "unsavory" allies over the years and will have plenty more in the future. Sure, it's nice to have an Israel or Japan as an ally....stable developed western-oriented systems with constitutional rule of law, many shared social values, and lots of common interests. Common interests are instructive. Turkey is a good ally to have. So is Singapore. In a pinch, we'll even use a Stalin or a Chang Kai-shek.

I'm perfectly willing to go to war when it is necessary. JFK: let's leave Castro in place. Dulles: Let's have a color revolution that overthrows Castro/Bay of Pigs. Me: Cuba is 90 miles from Key West. Annex it, State #51. Militarize and seal the Mexican border.
Wait. I thought you've been saying we are evil imperialists.

---

You are just mad at how big the budget deficit is and want to start cutting in ways that will have negligible reduction in anything other than our national security position.

NEWS FLASH: Trump is planning to reduce the budget primarily with rapid economic growth. You cannot slash the budget 20% and have an economic growth record to run on in the mid-terms. That budget deficit is part of GDP.....

---

THANK YOU! I have been saying this for years, you do not get out of this through budget cuts it is unsustainable. You have to increase revenues. Where we have a disagreement, I believe the Fed can play a role in new investments in tech to expand the market. You guys seem to want the Fed out. I think it is too much for non-govt. Look at Space X, how much of their money was Fed? 380 billion (might be all of Elon's companies don't remember, the point is it was substantial.

---

We have to do both......

We could slash most federal agencies by half and the American people would never, ever notice it.

The Dept of State has every Embassy in the world prepare a "labor report" on the state of labor movements in those countries. That's a several hundred officers around the world spending a few days/weeks drafting a massive document which is sent to several offices in the USG who collate and evaluate and send out more reports, to people who then do the same, and on and on..... That process is not just tracking labor as a player in politics....it's coddling of US labor movement. Probably could save a 8-digit number, minimum, just eliminating that one report (and most of the jobs that deal with it). There are thousands and thousands of make-work processes like that going on all over the government. No real reason to track foreign labor movements as anything other than players in their own political systems. Hell, a few of the larger embassies even have designated "labor officer" positions.

Not every thing the Federal Government does is essential. A fairly large percentage of what it does is expendable. If we are the least bit worried about deficits, we have to get very hard-nosed about cost-benefit. Cut big. If you see arterial bleeds, you fix them. If you don't, you know you cut something inconsequential.

There is no risk to cutting too much. We can always add it back if we find out we made a mistake.

FLBear5630 said:

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historian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

Very unrealistic and unprovable assumptions. No one knows what would have happened had the US entered WWII earlier. I don't think the US death toll was 500k but I don't think anyone knows for sure. I've seen many estimates over the past 40 years & they seem to be creeping upward gradually. Same with total deaths.

American isolationism was real. That was the attitude of most people until Pearl Harbor. That changed 180 degrees when we were attacked. Suddenly the American people were united almost 100%, more than any other war in our history.

Your description of Trump's foreign policy sounds like he was a hawk but he spent much of his time withdrawing the US forces from all those conflicts with significant success. Trump inherited a bad position for the US from Obama. Biden is remembered for the disastrous Afghanistan withdrawal but people seem to forget that it began under Trump and was proceeding successfully. Disaster could have been avoided had Biden only maintained Trump's policy (same with the US border, the economy, & everything else).

---

Hawk? Dove? That doesn't matter. We were in every nation at the end of Trump's tenure that we were when he came in. Why? Because Trump learned we were there for a reason and he couldn't responsibly pulled us out. Biden the idiot he is just pulled us out.
The pullout needed to happen. LONG overdue. Biden is the idiot because he botched it.

Trump talks election rhetoric, let's see what he does when he sees the actual data. My bet, like last time is we will be where we are now.

You guys are too caught up on labels. Decisions are made based on needs at the time. Trump will not abandon strategic positions and will respond within 6 months somewhere to send a message.

---

Anyone who truly understands Trump knows he is not going to open his administration with one or more capitulations to Russia and China.

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

ATL Bear said:

---

historian said:

---

True but non of those postwar realities were apparent or clear before or during the war. As I said before, we actually had a decent working relationship with the Soviets in the immediate aftermath of the war.

By the time FDR died, much had changed:

-Truman had a very different personality & opinion of people & countries than FDR.
-Truman became president largely ignorant of the decisions behind the scenes. FDR had not kept him informed or involved him in policy discussions. He did not know about the details of the Yalta agreements, for example.
-The US was by far the most powerful nation on the planet. We had the largest economy in human history, almost equal to the rest of the world, and we were on the brink of winning two wars simultaneously on opposite sides of the planet.
-The Manhattan Project was nearing a successful completion. It began as a very big, & very expensive, gamble with an outcome that was uncertain.
-The traditional great powers of Europe were greatly weakened by two world wars & about to lose most, if not all, of their colonial empires. This had begun before the war and accelerated after.
-The Soviets were emerging as the main power in Eastern Europe (really the only great power in all of Europe) primarily because of doing the hardest fighting in defeating Hitler, with lots of Lend Lease aid.

---

The USSR was also greatly weakened after WW2. We basically awarded them Eastern Europe, which was a longer term blunder it turns out. Had we followed Patton's recommendation, who knows how the Cold War years would have played out? Having demonstrated our nuclear capability, an actual hardline on independent determination post WW2 for many of the previously Nazi controlled countries would have been a possible if not prudent step.

---

What???

The Soviet Union was at its most powerful after WWII! And more powerful than Russia had ever been. They had done the heavy lifting to defeat Nazi Germany and were the clear victors in the east. We did not "give" them Eastern Europe. They already had it, except Yugoslavia. The Red Army was firmly entrenched there and we were not going to remove them except through war. No one wanted WWIII in 1945!!!!! NO ONE!! And they would soon have nukes too, thanks to their spies in the US.

Patton might have been willing to risk it but it wasn't his decision to make. Yes, only we had nukes but Truman wasn't going to nuke Moscow or any other Russian city. We now knew how destructive they were and were not about to use them again in a big power play.

Repeating the same false statements do not make them true.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Kai is trying to argue that since war never eliminates tyranny or imperialism, etc...., there is no point in resisting it anytime, anywhere.

---

Not at all.

We just disagree with your side about who the tyrants and imperialists are.
Oh that is crystal clear. It's always us, according to you.

A NATO that has been edging ever eastward at the behest of the MIC in violation of the promises we made to the Russians is much more aptly described as imperialists than a Russia that has moved to secure some neighboring territories populated by Russians.
So what? Zero chance the Russians ever thought Baker's "promise" meant "never." The context was....the USSR was collapsing and we wanted to assure Russia we were not going to rush in and play Risk all the way to the Russian border. And we didn't. We were very deliberate, over the course of many years taking new members. Yes, we admitted the Baltics. Because they asked. We did not admit Finland or Sweden, who didn't ask until RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE. Neither did we admit Belarus or Ukraine, latter of which DID NOT APPLY FOR NATO MEMBERSHIP UNTIL INVADED BY RUSSIA. Same for anybody in the Caucasus. We didn't push east. East begged us to come in. More to the point WE INVADED NOBODY.

Likewise EU member states who are banning political parties, prohibiting the freedom of religion, and arresting people for thought crime are the tyrants. In fact since Covid there hasn't been much daylight between the behavior of those article 5 "allies" of ours and the CCP.
The idea that Europe is a greater police state that Russia is comical, but even if we admit your silly premise, it's worth nothing we've had a lot of "unsavory" allies over the years and will have plenty more in the future. Sure, it's nice to have an Israel or Japan as an ally....stable developed western-oriented systems with constitutional rule of law, many shared social values, and lots of common interests. Common interests are instructive. Turkey is a good ally to have. So is Singapore. In a pinch, we'll even use a Stalin or a Chang Kai-shek.

I'm perfectly willing to go to war when it is necessary. JFK: let's leave Castro in place. Dulles: Let's have a color revolution that overthrows Castro/Bay of Pigs. Me: Cuba is 90 miles from Key West. Annex it, State #51. Militarize and seal the Mexican border.
Wait. I thought you've been saying we are evil imperialists.

---

You are just mad at how big the budget deficit is and want to start cutting in ways that will have negligible reduction in anything other than our national security position.

NEWS FLASH: Trump is planning to reduce the budget primarily with rapid economic growth. You cannot slash the budget 20% and have an economic growth record to run on in the mid-terms. That budget deficit is part of GDP.....

---

THANK YOU! I have been saying this for years, you do not get out of this through budget cuts it is unsustainable. You have to increase revenues. Where we have a disagreement, I believe the Fed can play a role in new investments in tech to expand the market. You guys seem to want the Fed out. I think it is too much for non-govt. Look at Space X, how much of their money was Fed? 380 billion (might be all of Elon's companies don't remember, the point is it was substantial.

---

We have to do both......

We could slash most federal agencies by half and the American people would never, ever notice it.

The Dept of State has every Embassy in the world prepare a "labor report" on the state of labor movements in those countries. That's a several hundred officers around the world spending a few days/weeks drafting a massive document which is sent to several offices in the USG who collate and evaluate and send out more reports, to people who then do the same, and on and on..... That process is not just tracking labor as a player in politics....it's coddling of US labor movement. Probably could save a 8-digit number, minimum, just eliminating that one report (and most of the jobs that deal with it). There are thousands and thousands of make-work processes like that going on all over the government. No real reason to track foreign labor movements as anything other than players in their own political systems. Hell, a few of the larger embassies even have designated "labor officer" positions.

Not every thing the Federal Government does is essential. A fairly large percentage of what it does is expendable. If we are the least bit worried about deficits, we have to get very hard-nosed about cost-benefit. Cut big. If you see arterial bleeds, you fix them. If you don't, you know you cut something inconsequential.

There is no risk to cutting too much. We can always add it back if we find out we made a mistake.

---

Some of your responses are so factful and thought based that I enjoy your responses. Then you throw out MAGA crap like this: "We could slash most federal agencies by half and the American people would never, ever notice it."

Maybe in Intel, which you know a lot more than me, so have at it cut the intel and defense budgets in half. No one will notice...

But the bottom line is most of environmental, engineering and transportation are underfunded versus the cost. You cut the transportation spending by 1/2 and people are going to notice.

Look at Interior, what they did to the National Forests by reducing "management". We have wildfires all over. Ask anyone that live in the mountains, controlled burns and management is necessary to keep it from becoming a tinderbox. That cost money.

So, what half gets cut?

historian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

historian said:

---

True but non of those postwar realities were apparent or clear before or during the war. As I said before, we actually had a decent working relationship with the Soviets in the immediate aftermath of the war.

By the time FDR died, much had changed:

-Truman had a very different personality & opinion of people & countries than FDR.
-Truman became president largely ignorant of the decisions behind the scenes. FDR had not kept him informed or involved him in policy discussions. He did not know about the details of the Yalta agreements, for example.
-The US was by far the most powerful nation on the planet. We had the largest economy in human history, almost equal to the rest of the world, and we were on the brink of winning two wars simultaneously on opposite sides of the planet.
-The Manhattan Project was nearing a successful completion. It began as a very big, & very expensive, gamble with an outcome that was uncertain.
-The traditional great powers of Europe were greatly weakened by two world wars & about to lose most, if not all, of their colonial empires. This had begun before the war and accelerated after.
-The Soviets were emerging as the main power in Eastern Europe (really the only great power in all of Europe) primarily because of doing the hardest fighting in defeating Hitler, with lots of Lend Lease aid.

---

The USSR was also greatly weakened after WW2. We basically awarded them Eastern Europe, which was a longer term blunder it turns out. Had we followed Patton's recommendation, who knows how the Cold War years would have played out? Having demonstrated our nuclear capability, an actual hardline on independent determination post WW2 for many of the previously Nazi controlled countries would have been a possible if not prudent step.

---

What???

The Soviet Union was at its most powerful after WWII! And more powerful than Russia had ever been. They had done the heavy lifting to defeat Nazi Germany and were the clear victors in the east. We did not "give" them Eastern Europe. They already had it, except Yugoslavia. The Red Army was firmly entrenched there and we were not going to remove them except through war. No one wanted WWIII in 1945!!!!! NO ONE!! And they would soon have nukes too, thanks to their spies in the US.

Patton might have been willing to risk it but it wasn't his decision to make. Yes, only we had nukes but Truman wasn't going to nuke Moscow or any other Russian city. We now knew how destructive they were and were not about to use them again in a big power play.

---

The Soviets were stretched thin, starving at home, and economically devastated. They rallied over the next 5 years with our assistance ironically. Their denazification efforts in the territories they were in turned into broad political purges to set up puppet communist governments. That's what we "awarded" them the right to do.

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

---

Why did the US care if Japan established economic zones in China when we had conquered the Philippines and made it our colony ?

The British had economic zones in China.

The Dutch controlled oil fields in the southwest Pacific.

The French controlled Vietnam.

Exactly why was it necessary to go to war with Japan merely to enforce our ridiculous double standard ?

Open Door policy under TR

historian said:

---

Open Door policy under TR

---

White Mans Burden apparently didn't not apply to the Japanese's in Roosevelt's eyes.

So hundreds of thousands of Americans had to die protecting China.

Which then became under communist domination, leading to still more American dead in Korea and Vietnam.


And we STILL believe the propaganda as it relates to Ukraine.

White Man's Burden was a poem by Rudyard Kipling to describe British ideas in Africa. It has broader application given how widespread racism was in the west but it's not the universal explanation people often think it is. The Left finds it easy to describe everyone road as racist and attribute everyone's actions to racism. Reality & history are more complicated.

The Americans who died in the Pacific were not fighting only for China but the entire region including our possessions: the Philippines, Wake Island, Guam, etc. By the way these places were also attacked at the same time as Pearl Harbor. The war was more complicated.

historian said:

---

The Americans who died in the Pacific were not fighting only for China but the entire region including our possessions: the Philippines, Wake Island, Guam, etc. By the way these places were also attacked at the same time as Pearl Harbor. The war was more complicated.

---

Americans applied the fantasy of the White Mans Burden to justify imperialism.

Yet we fought a war to prevent Japan from following our example and the examples of Great Britain, France and Holland.

A war manipulated by FDR to aid China. Which few in the US even comprehended focused as they were on Roosevelt's blatant violations of the Neutrality Act which passed to calm our citizens fears of being dragged into still another European War.

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

---

Why did the US care if Japan established economic zones in China when we had conquered the Philippines and made it our colony ?

The British had economic zones in China.

The Dutch controlled oil fields in the southwest Pacific.

The French controlled Vietnam.

Exactly why was it necessary to go to war with Japan merely to enforce our ridiculous double standard ?

---

So it was ok for Japan to go to war to take over other sovereign interests, but it was wrong to defend them? That's an interesting perspective.

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

---

Why did the US care if Japan established economic zones in China when we had conquered the Philippines and made it our colony ?

The British had economic zones in China.

The Dutch controlled oil fields in the southwest Pacific.

The French controlled Vietnam.

Exactly why was it necessary to go to war with Japan merely to enforce our ridiculous double standard ?

---

So it was ok for Japan to go to war to take over other sovereign interests, but it was wrong to defend them? That's an interesting perspective.

---

The United States went to war with Spain and took over its sovereign interests in the PI.

After Spanish troops left the PI, the US went back on its promise to grant the PI independence. and fought a brutal war against the locals. Of whom tens of thousands were killed or died in concentration camps.

Yet when Japan attempted the same in China, FDR took it upon himself to to risk American lives to stop them.

The hypocrisy was not only flagrantly obvious, but ultimately resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen.

Only to see Mao take over China and oppose US interests throughout the Far East, but especially in Vietnam and Korea; where additional US dead stacked up. Even now communist China is a legitimate war threat to all of us.


It really doesn't get more obvious....however if one wants to argue for the sake of arguing.....I guess that's always an option.

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

---

Why did the US care if Japan established economic zones in China when we had conquered the Philippines and made it our colony ?

The British had economic zones in China.

The Dutch controlled oil fields in the southwest Pacific.

The French controlled Vietnam.

Exactly why was it necessary to go to war with Japan merely to enforce our ridiculous double standard ?

---

So it was ok for Japan to go to war to take over other sovereign interests, but it was wrong to defend them? That's an interesting perspective.

---

The United States went to war with Spain and took over its sovereign interests in the PI.

After Spanish troops left the PI, the US went back on its promise to grant the PI independence. and fought a brutal war against the locals. Of whom tens of thousands were killed or died in concentration camps.

Yet when Japan attempted the same in China, FDR took it upon himself to to risk American lives to stop them.

The hypocrisy was not only flagrantly obvious, but ultimately resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen.

Only to see Mao take over China and oppose US interests throughout the Far East, but especially in Vietnam and Korea; where additional US dead stacked up. Even now communist China is a legitimate war threat to all of us.


It really doesn't get more obvious....however if one wants to argue for the sake of arguing.....I guess that's always an option.

---

I am curious, what would have been your option? Everything you said is accurate, maybe not precise but accurate. When you go into the reasons for decisions, usually there is a logical reason why it seemed like a good position at the time of decision. Whether or not it plays out that way of course is anyone's guess.

I am interested in the decision point, when the decision was made with the information at hand. Not the 50 years later ramifications, hindsight is great. But, we don't get that luxury. What would have been the decisions you would have made, how would you have differed from Marshall and FDR. Serious question, not a provocation...

By the way, good article on this below. I love this thread, it leads me to all sorts of really interesting research...

Why the US Seized the Philippines at the End of the 19th Century The Diplomat

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

---

Japan begged us to negotiate and was ignored time after time.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

---

Japan begged us to negotiate and was ignored time after time.

---

Japan didn't want a two front war. Negotiations were accepted our terms or else we walk. They were not willing to give a thing.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

---

Japan begged us to negotiate and was ignored time after time.

---

Japan didn't want a two front war. Negotiations were accepted our terms or else we walk. They were not willing to give a thing.

---

They were willing to give a great deal, and they made many attempts. Our own ambassador to Japan tried everything he could to make FDR listen.

The sanctions weren't designed to bring Japan to the table. They were designed to accomplish exactly what they did.

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

---

Why did the US care if Japan established economic zones in China when we had conquered the Philippines and made it our colony ?

The British had economic zones in China.

The Dutch controlled oil fields in the southwest Pacific.

The French controlled Vietnam.

Exactly why was it necessary to go to war with Japan merely to enforce our ridiculous double standard ?

---

So it was ok for Japan to go to war to take over other sovereign interests, but it was wrong to defend them? That's an interesting perspective.

---

The United States went to war with Spain and took over its sovereign interests in the PI.

After Spanish troops left the PI, the US went back on its promise to grant the PI independence. and fought a brutal war against the locals. Of whom tens of thousands were killed or died in concentration camps.

Yet when Japan attempted the same in China, FDR took it upon himself to to risk American lives to stop them.

The hypocrisy was not only flagrantly obvious, but ultimately resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen.

Only to see Mao take over China and oppose US interests throughout the Far East, but especially in Vietnam and Korea; where additional US dead stacked up. Even now communist China is a legitimate war threat to all of us.


It really doesn't get more obvious....however if one wants to argue for the sake of arguing.....I guess that's always an option.

---

I am curious, what would have been your option? Everything you said is accurate, maybe not precise but accurate. When you go into the reasons for decisions, usually there is a logical reason why it seemed like a good position at the time of decision. Whether or not it plays out that way of course is anyone's guess.

I am interested in the decision point, when the decision was made with the information at hand. Not the 50 years later ramifications, hindsight is great. But, we don't get that luxury. What would have been the decisions you would have made, how would you have differed from Marshall and FDR. Serious question, not a provocation...

By the way, good article on this below. I love this thread, it leads me to all sorts of really interesting research...

Why the US Seized the Philippines at the End of the 19th Century The Diplomat

---

Would have granted the PI their immediate independence.

Then we could focus on our own needs and not worry about actions in the Far East.

Would hsve never allowed Churchill to brainwash FDR into attacking German subs without a formal declaration of war.

Would have allowed the nazis and Soviets to kill each other while Americans watched along the sidelines ( like a host of other countries ) saving the blood of our own people.

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

---

Why did the US care if Japan established economic zones in China when we had conquered the Philippines and made it our colony ?

The British had economic zones in China.

The Dutch controlled oil fields in the southwest Pacific.

The French controlled Vietnam.

Exactly why was it necessary to go to war with Japan merely to enforce our ridiculous double standard ?

---

So it was ok for Japan to go to war to take over other sovereign interests, but it was wrong to defend them? That's an interesting perspective.

---

The United States went to war with Spain and took over its sovereign interests in the PI.

After Spanish troops left the PI, the US went back on its promise to grant the PI independence. and fought a brutal war against the locals. Of whom tens of thousands were killed or died in concentration camps.

Yet when Japan attempted the same in China, FDR took it upon himself to to risk American lives to stop them.

The hypocrisy was not only flagrantly obvious, but ultimately resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen.

Only to see Mao take over China and oppose US interests throughout the Far East, but especially in Vietnam and Korea; where additional US dead stacked up. Even now communist China is a legitimate war threat to all of us.


It really doesn't get more obvious....however if one wants to argue for the sake of arguing.....I guess that's always an option.

---

I am curious, what would have been your option? Everything you said is accurate, maybe not precise but accurate. When you go into the reasons for decisions, usually there is a logical reason why it seemed like a good position at the time of decision. Whether or not it plays out that way of course is anyone's guess.

I am interested in the decision point, when the decision was made with the information at hand. Not the 50 years later ramifications, hindsight is great. But, we don't get that luxury. What would have been the decisions you would have made, how would you have differed from Marshall and FDR. Serious question, not a provocation...

By the way, good article on this below. I love this thread, it leads me to all sorts of really interesting research...

Why the US Seized the Philippines at the End of the 19th Century The Diplomat

---

Would have granted the PI their immediate independence.

Then we could focus on our own needs and not worry about actions in the Far East.

Would hsve never allowed Churchill to brainwash FDR into attacking German subs without a formal declaration of war.

Would have the Germans and Soviets kill each other while we watched along the sidelines ( like a host of other countries ) and saved the blood of our own people.

---

Can't say I disagree with the last one.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

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Japan begged us to negotiate and was ignored time after time.

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Wrong. They invaded places like China and Indo-China, signed the Tripartite Pact, and begged us not to interrupt their war machine intentions.

KaiBear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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KaiBear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

---

Why did the US care if Japan established economic zones in China when we had conquered the Philippines and made it our colony ?

The British had economic zones in China.

The Dutch controlled oil fields in the southwest Pacific.

The French controlled Vietnam.

Exactly why was it necessary to go to war with Japan merely to enforce our ridiculous double standard ?

---

So it was ok for Japan to go to war to take over other sovereign interests, but it was wrong to defend them? That's an interesting perspective.

---

The United States went to war with Spain and took over its sovereign interests in the PI.

After Spanish troops left the PI, the US went back on its promise to grant the PI independence. and fought a brutal war against the locals. Of whom tens of thousands were killed or died in concentration camps.

Yet when Japan attempted the same in China, FDR took it upon himself to to risk American lives to stop them.

The hypocrisy was not only flagrantly obvious, but ultimately resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen.

Only to see Mao take over China and oppose US interests throughout the Far East, but especially in Vietnam and Korea; where additional US dead stacked up. Even now communist China is a legitimate war threat to all of us.


It really doesn't get more obvious....however if one wants to argue for the sake of arguing.....I guess that's always an option.

---

You seem to be misplacing events in China. We didn't force the action in China, Japan did.

KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

---

Why did the US care if Japan established economic zones in China when we had conquered the Philippines and made it our colony ?

The British had economic zones in China.

The Dutch controlled oil fields in the southwest Pacific.

The French controlled Vietnam.

Exactly why was it necessary to go to war with Japan merely to enforce our ridiculous double standard ?

---

So it was ok for Japan to go to war to take over other sovereign interests, but it was wrong to defend them? That's an interesting perspective.

---

The United States went to war with Spain and took over its sovereign interests in the PI.

After Spanish troops left the PI, the US went back on its promise to grant the PI independence. and fought a brutal war against the locals. Of whom tens of thousands were killed or died in concentration camps.

Yet when Japan attempted the same in China, FDR took it upon himself to to risk American lives to stop them.

The hypocrisy was not only flagrantly obvious, but ultimately resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen.

Only to see Mao take over China and oppose US interests throughout the Far East, but especially in Vietnam and Korea; where additional US dead stacked up. Even now communist China is a legitimate war threat to all of us.


It really doesn't get more obvious....however if one wants to argue for the sake of arguing.....I guess that's always an option.

---

I am curious, what would have been your option? Everything you said is accurate, maybe not precise but accurate. When you go into the reasons for decisions, usually there is a logical reason why it seemed like a good position at the time of decision. Whether or not it plays out that way of course is anyone's guess.

I am interested in the decision point, when the decision was made with the information at hand. Not the 50 years later ramifications, hindsight is great. But, we don't get that luxury. What would have been the decisions you would have made, how would you have differed from Marshall and FDR. Serious question, not a provocation...

By the way, good article on this below. I love this thread, it leads me to all sorts of really interesting research...

Why the US Seized the Philippines at the End of the 19th Century The Diplomat

---

Would have granted the PI their immediate independence.

Then we could focus on our own needs and not worry about actions in the Far East.

Would hsve never allowed Churchill to brainwash FDR into attacking German subs without a formal declaration of war.

Would have allowed the nazis and Soviets to kill each other while Americans watched along the sidelines ( like a host of other countries ) saving the blood of our own people.

---

Curious what other countries you're referring to that sat on the sidelines?

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

Hindsight is 20-20

---

True


However repeating the same blunders is criminal.

Especially when it's other peoples lives being put at risk.

---

The War was anything but criminal. The blunders, like so many conflicts throughout ours and others history, was the post war resolution strategies. WW2 post war strategies had a number of successes and some failures, primarily being easy on the USSR.

---

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between China and Japan. Yet we intervened with an oil embargo anyway.

The security of the United States was not threatened by a war between Germany and the Soviet Union / Great Britain.
Yet we intervened with an undeclared naval war against Germany anyway.

Eventually retaliation from Japan brought the war to the American people and over 500,000 were killed and many
more permanently crippled.

Only to put Stalin in control of much of Europe and Mao to become the dominant force in the Far East.


This is not hard.


FDR blundered but it was primarily the American middle class and poor who made the sacrifices.


And Biden is putting all of us at risk still again.

---

My Great Uncle was on the USS Panay that was sunk in the Yangtze in 1937. He believed it fully intentional including the attacks on the U.S. oil freighters they targeted. After recovering from some minor burn wounds he was then assigned to the USS Raleigh at Pearl Harbor. We had interests in China and all over the Far East that they ramped up their threats. Our sanction was the only peaceful way to get them to the negotiating table. They chose war.

---

Why did the US care if Japan established economic zones in China when we had conquered the Philippines and made it our colony ?

The British had economic zones in China.

The Dutch controlled oil fields in the southwest Pacific.

The French controlled Vietnam.

Exactly why was it necessary to go to war with Japan merely to enforce our ridiculous double standard ?

---

So it was ok for Japan to go to war to take over other sovereign interests, but it was wrong to defend them? That's an interesting perspective.

---

The United States went to war with Spain and took over its sovereign interests in the PI.

After Spanish troops left the PI, the US went back on its promise to grant the PI independence. and fought a brutal war against the locals. Of whom tens of thousands were killed or died in concentration camps.

Yet when Japan attempted the same in China, FDR took it upon himself to to risk American lives to stop them.

The hypocrisy was not only flagrantly obvious, but ultimately resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen.

Only to see Mao take over China and oppose US interests throughout the Far East, but especially in Vietnam and Korea; where additional US dead stacked up. Even now communist China is a legitimate war threat to all of us.


It really doesn't get more obvious....however if one wants to argue for the sake of arguing.....I guess that's always an option.

---

I am curious, what would have been your option? Everything you said is accurate, maybe not precise but accurate. When you go into the reasons for decisions, usually there is a logical reason why it seemed like a good position at the time of decision. Whether or not it plays out that way of course is anyone's guess.

I am interested in the decision point, when the decision was made with the information at hand. Not the 50 years later ramifications, hindsight is great. But, we don't get that luxury. What would have been the decisions you would have made, how would you have differed from Marshall and FDR. Serious question, not a provocation...

By the way, good article on this below. I love this thread, it leads me to all sorts of really interesting research...

Why the US Seized the Philippines at the End of the 19th Century The Diplomat

---

Would have granted the PI their immediate independence.

Then we could focus on our own needs and not worry about actions in the Far East.

Would hsve never allowed Churchill to brainwash FDR into attacking German subs without a formal declaration of war.

Would have allowed the nazis and Soviets to kill each other while Americans watched along the sidelines ( like a host of other countries ) saving the blood of our own people.

---

Curious what other countries you're referring to that sat on the sidelines?

---

Come on fella....you can name 6-7 such countries right now.