Is Islam a political ideology of conquest more than a religion?

29,630 Views | 471 Replies | Last: 5 days ago by Redbrickbear
historian
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And a complete lack of logic
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
TexasScientist
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historian said:

Actually, it is a popular myth started by Stalin and repeated by Leftists ever since. Big it's still a lie

The earth isn't flat either.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
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Redbrickbear said:

TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

Redbrickbear said:

TexasScientist said:

Redbrickbear said:

TexasScientist said:

Redbrickbear said:

TexasScientist said:

whiterock said:

TexasScientist said:

Redbrickbear said:

TexasScientist said:

Redbrickbear said:


And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.





My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.



So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism


Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?






1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

That's not true. There were numerous Catholics and others who were members of the Nazi party.





You seem incapable of understanding that having some members of a religious group inside a political Party....does NOT make that Party a supporter of a specific religion...nor that religions adherents supporters of the said Party.

Catholics as a group were especially known as non-Nazi party supporters.

Catholics voted on mass for the Center party throughout the 1920s and 1930s

Catholic majority areas of Germany were in fact where the Nazi party got its lowest vote levels and saw the least support.

[Catholic bishops in Germany warned against the Nazis and some Bishops forbid party membership in the 1920s and 30s....
  • Specific bans: The bishop of Mainz explicitly excommunicated Catholic members of the Nazi Party in his diocese in 1930. The Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano also stated that membership was "irreconcilable with the Catholic conscience".
  • Widespread condemnation: In 1931, the bishops of Paderborn and Freiburg issued similar warnings, while Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Munich called for a warning against Nazism because its views were "not reconcilable with Catholic doctrine"]


It's not just some members. It was an overwhelming percentage of Germans, primarily Protestants and Catholics who were members of the party itself. That is my point. A majority of Christians were complicit. You can't deny or refute that. Kudos to those who resisted and even lost their lives trying to do the right thing. But overall, Christians were complicit.


The Nazi party itself did not even have many members actually.

"In the 1920s the Nazi party had less than 80,000 members.

1933: After Hitler was appointed chancellor in January, membership increased rapidly, reaching around 850,000 by the end of the year."

When Hitler took power it still has less than 1 million

Germany had a population of 66-67 million in 1933

The vast majority of Germans were not Nazi party members or party voters

And of the party itself it was more agnostic and Lutheran by member.

[Most Germans belonged to a Christian church, with the Nazi Party membership mirroring this demographic.
Protestant majority:
Protestants, especially Lutherans, were over-represented in the Nazi Party's membership and electorate, particularly in Northern Germany.
Catholic minority:
Catholics were under-represented in the party, as many voted for the Catholic Centre Party instead. However, some high-ranking Nazis, including Hitler himself, were nominal Catholics from Southern Germany…]

You are attacking Christians…because a criminal party had religious demographics that mirrored the country it was in..

Most Lutherans were members of The Confessing Church, the ones that were against everything the Nazi's stood for

Where is the evidence, other than verbal insincerity, backed by genuine action or commitment? How many Lutherans joined resistance fighters?

You need to look no further than the pacifist Dietrich Bonhoeffer. A Lutheran Pastor who participated in setting up the bomb that almost killed Hitler. The SS arrested in April 1943, Dietrich was held at several locations, starting in Berlin-Tegel prison and later transferred to the Gestapo prison on Prinz-Albert-Strasse. As the Allied forces advanced, he was moved to the Buchenwald concentration camp in February 1945 and finally to Flossenburg concentration camp. He was executed at Flossenburgn April 9, 1945.



And he should be commended for what he did. He is an example of what all Christians, and Germans for that matter, should have done. He is an exceptional Christian, who had integrity. That still doesn't override or excuse the fact that Germany was a predominantly Christian nation.


And China was a predominantly Buddhist nation

Yet Buddhism is not responsible for Mao Zedong or the Communists and their crimes

The populace, be it Buddhist, or something else are culpable.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
Assassin
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TexasScientist said:

historian said:

Actually, it is a popular myth started by Stalin and repeated by Leftists ever since. Big it's still a lie

The earth isn't flat either.

When did you finally figure that out?
"The important thing to know about an assassination or an attempted assassination is not who fired the shot, but who paid for the bullet." Eric Ambler
historian
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Duh. No need to pretend it's an important revelation.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
historian
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TexasScientist said:

Redbrickbear said:

TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

Redbrickbear said:

TexasScientist said:

Redbrickbear said:

TexasScientist said:

Redbrickbear said:

TexasScientist said:

whiterock said:

TexasScientist said:

Redbrickbear said:

TexasScientist said:

Redbrickbear said:


And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.





My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.



So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism


Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?






1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

That's not true. There were numerous Catholics and others who were members of the Nazi party.





You seem incapable of understanding that having some members of a religious group inside a political Party....does NOT make that Party a supporter of a specific religion...nor that religions adherents supporters of the said Party.

Catholics as a group were especially known as non-Nazi party supporters.

Catholics voted on mass for the Center party throughout the 1920s and 1930s

Catholic majority areas of Germany were in fact where the Nazi party got its lowest vote levels and saw the least support.

[Catholic bishops in Germany warned against the Nazis and some Bishops forbid party membership in the 1920s and 30s....
  • Specific bans: The bishop of Mainz explicitly excommunicated Catholic members of the Nazi Party in his diocese in 1930. The Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano also stated that membership was "irreconcilable with the Catholic conscience".
  • Widespread condemnation: In 1931, the bishops of Paderborn and Freiburg issued similar warnings, while Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Munich called for a warning against Nazism because its views were "not reconcilable with Catholic doctrine"]


It's not just some members. It was an overwhelming percentage of Germans, primarily Protestants and Catholics who were members of the party itself. That is my point. A majority of Christians were complicit. You can't deny or refute that. Kudos to those who resisted and even lost their lives trying to do the right thing. But overall, Christians were complicit.


The Nazi party itself did not even have many members actually.

"In the 1920s the Nazi party had less than 80,000 members.

1933: After Hitler was appointed chancellor in January, membership increased rapidly, reaching around 850,000 by the end of the year."

When Hitler took power it still has less than 1 million

Germany had a population of 66-67 million in 1933

The vast majority of Germans were not Nazi party members or party voters

And of the party itself it was more agnostic and Lutheran by member.

[Most Germans belonged to a Christian church, with the Nazi Party membership mirroring this demographic.
Protestant majority:
Protestants, especially Lutherans, were over-represented in the Nazi Party's membership and electorate, particularly in Northern Germany.
Catholic minority:
Catholics were under-represented in the party, as many voted for the Catholic Centre Party instead. However, some high-ranking Nazis, including Hitler himself, were nominal Catholics from Southern Germany…]

You are attacking Christians…because a criminal party had religious demographics that mirrored the country it was in..

Most Lutherans were members of The Confessing Church, the ones that were against everything the Nazi's stood for

Where is the evidence, other than verbal insincerity, backed by genuine action or commitment? How many Lutherans joined resistance fighters?

You need to look no further than the pacifist Dietrich Bonhoeffer. A Lutheran Pastor who participated in setting up the bomb that almost killed Hitler. The SS arrested in April 1943, Dietrich was held at several locations, starting in Berlin-Tegel prison and later transferred to the Gestapo prison on Prinz-Albert-Strasse. As the Allied forces advanced, he was moved to the Buchenwald concentration camp in February 1945 and finally to Flossenburg concentration camp. He was executed at Flossenburgn April 9, 1945.



And he should be commended for what he did. He is an example of what all Christians, and Germans for that matter, should have done. He is an exceptional Christian, who had integrity. That still doesn't override or excuse the fact that Germany was a predominantly Christian nation.


And China was a predominantly Buddhist nation

Yet Buddhism is not responsible for Mao Zedong or the Communists and their crimes

The populace, be it Buddhist, or something else are culpable.

Slaves are not responsible for the crimes of their masters.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
whiterock
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Should the Palestinian race be held responsible for what Hamas did on 7 October?
Assassin
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If you really want to know how Peaceful Islam is, bookmark this site and read the right column EVERY DAY

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
"The important thing to know about an assassination or an attempted assassination is not who fired the shot, but who paid for the bullet." Eric Ambler
Assassin
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"The important thing to know about an assassination or an attempted assassination is not who fired the shot, but who paid for the bullet." Eric Ambler
historian
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Assassin said:



Obviously this is someone who needs to be deported immediately. Of course he won't be because the cowardly Leftist leaders of the UK continue to betray the citizens of that country by facilitating the invasion by these barbaric outsiders.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Redbrickbear
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historian
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America should do the same.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Assassin
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"The important thing to know about an assassination or an attempted assassination is not who fired the shot, but who paid for the bullet." Eric Ambler
Redbrickbear
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historian
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It's a demonic cult of death
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
TexasScientist
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historian said:

It's a demonic cult of death

Funny you recognize one cult, but not another.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
Assassin
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TexasScientist said:

historian said:

It's a demonic cult of death

Funny you recognize one cult, but not another.

The Texas scientists?
"The important thing to know about an assassination or an attempted assassination is not who fired the shot, but who paid for the bullet." Eric Ambler
TexasScientist
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Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

historian said:

It's a demonic cult of death

Funny you recognize one cult, but not another.

The Texas scientists?

Look up the definition of a cult, it'll help you out.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
Assassin
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TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

historian said:

It's a demonic cult of death

Funny you recognize one cult, but not another.

The Texas scientists?

Look up the definition of a cult, it'll help you out.

Right, the Texas Scientists. That's the cult I was thinking of. Irrational hate of Christianity. Oblivious to the Word of God. Lovers of Islam.

The word is that they prey to Mecca six times a day
"The important thing to know about an assassination or an attempted assassination is not who fired the shot, but who paid for the bullet." Eric Ambler
TexasScientist
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Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

historian said:

It's a demonic cult of death

Funny you recognize one cult, but not another.

The Texas scientists?

Look up the definition of a cult, it'll help you out.

Right, the Texas Scientists. That's the cult I was thinking of. Irrational hate of Christianity. Oblivious to the Word of God. Lovers of Islam.

The word is that they prey to Mecca six times a day

^^^ Ignorance is your trademark.

But you are right to the extent Islam and Christianity are cults. Since Islam and Christianity have the same god, and claim his devine word, you're in a real conundrum. Reciting the Lord's Prayer six times a day may help you.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
Assassin
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TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

historian said:

It's a demonic cult of death

Funny you recognize one cult, but not another.

The Texas scientists?

Look up the definition of a cult, it'll help you out.

Right, the Texas Scientists. That's the cult I was thinking of. Irrational hate of Christianity. Oblivious to the Word of God. Lovers of Islam.

The word is that they prey to Mecca six times a day

^^^ Ignorance is your trademark.

But you are right to the extent Islam and Christianity are cults. Since Islam and Christianity have the same god, and claim his devine word, you're in a real conundrum. Reciting the Lord's Prayer six times a day may help you.

Why do you bother coming to a board that is strongly Christian when you are an atheist? I don't get your point being here whatsoever? When all you do is you feeble attempts to bash Christ?
"The important thing to know about an assassination or an attempted assassination is not who fired the shot, but who paid for the bullet." Eric Ambler
Sam Lowry
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Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

historian said:

It's a demonic cult of death

Funny you recognize one cult, but not another.

The Texas scientists?

Look up the definition of a cult, it'll help you out.

Right, the Texas Scientists. That's the cult I was thinking of. Irrational hate of Christianity. Oblivious to the Word of God. Lovers of Islam.

The word is that they prey to Mecca six times a day

^^^ Ignorance is your trademark.

But you are right to the extent Islam and Christianity are cults. Since Islam and Christianity have the same god, and claim his devine word, you're in a real conundrum. Reciting the Lord's Prayer six times a day may help you.

Why do you bother coming to a board that is strongly Christian

Link?
Assassin
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Sam Lowry said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

historian said:

It's a demonic cult of death

Funny you recognize one cult, but not another.

The Texas scientists?

Look up the definition of a cult, it'll help you out.

Right, the Texas Scientists. That's the cult I was thinking of. Irrational hate of Christianity. Oblivious to the Word of God. Lovers of Islam.

The word is that they prey to Mecca six times a day

^^^ Ignorance is your trademark.

But you are right to the extent Islam and Christianity are cults. Since Islam and Christianity have the same god, and claim his devine word, you're in a real conundrum. Reciting the Lord's Prayer six times a day may help you.

Why do you bother coming to a board that is strongly Christian

Link?

Troll

"The important thing to know about an assassination or an attempted assassination is not who fired the shot, but who paid for the bullet." Eric Ambler
Redbrickbear
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TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

historian said:

It's a demonic cult of death

Funny you recognize one cult, but not another.

The Texas scientists?

Look up the definition of a cult, it'll help you out.

Right, the Texas Scientists. That's the cult I was thinking of. Irrational hate of Christianity. Oblivious to the Word of God. Lovers of Islam.

The word is that they prey to Mecca six times a day

^^^ Ignorance is your trademark.

But you are right to the extent Islam and Christianity are cults. Since Islam and Christianity have the same god, and claim his devine word, you're in a real conundrum. Reciting the Lord's Prayer six times a day may help you.


Here is an interesting idea

If you want to have a conversation about Christianity (or Nazism) or any other topic then start a thread.

You can say what you like and have a back and forth with other posters.

This thread was created to talk about Islam.

But Islam seems to be the last thing you actually want to discuss.....strangely you want to redirect the convo. to Christianity, or Nazism or whatever else.

historian
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Labeling Christianity a "cult" is the ultimate ignorance!
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
historian
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Ad hominem attacks are a classic logical fallacy. Often people will resort to it when they don't have a real argument.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
historian
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Misdirection is another logical fallacy.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Redbrickbear
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Redbrickbear
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Redbrickbear
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Assassin
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"The important thing to know about an assassination or an attempted assassination is not who fired the shot, but who paid for the bullet." Eric Ambler
Assassin
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"The important thing to know about an assassination or an attempted assassination is not who fired the shot, but who paid for the bullet." Eric Ambler
Redbrickbear
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J.R.
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I'm in no way an expert on Islam, though one of my besties is Muslim (muslim lite as she says). Just a quick one relative to my Muslim experience this week. I have been in Thailand for a while and was on the southern tip of o Lanta (far South Island) which is significantly Muslim. The ladies I run into, beit,, hotel, food stalls were the nicest, kindest people I have been around. Again,, don't know if it is regional, cultural or what. most all were Thai.
ShooterTX
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TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

Assassin said:

TexasScientist said:

historian said:

It's a demonic cult of death

Funny you recognize one cult, but not another.

The Texas scientists?

Look up the definition of a cult, it'll help you out.

Right, the Texas Scientists. That's the cult I was thinking of. Irrational hate of Christianity. Oblivious to the Word of God. Lovers of Islam.

The word is that they prey to Mecca six times a day

^^^ Ignorance is your trademark.

But you are right to the extent Islam and Christianity are cults. Since Islam and Christianity have the same god, and claim his devine word, you're in a real conundrum. Reciting the Lord's Prayer six times a day may help you.

We do not pay to the same God. Islam tries to claim that. Christianity does not.
The god of Islam is just Satan in disguise. The god of Islam is NOTHING like the one true God of the Bible.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
 
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