Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Furthermore, regarding John 6:53 it seems many here are actually acting out and playing the part of what is said explicitly in scripture in John 6:60

Jesus then gives his response to their unbelief or misunderstanding.


**John 6:60**: "Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?"

**John 6:61**: "But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?"

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I am not sure of the relevance of these verses to our discussion.

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I should have copied this post first for relevance

"And the other part of it is that the very next verse says, "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life". So if the verse before that is to be taken literally, then this one has to be also. Which would mean that ALL one has to do to be saved is eat some bread and drink some wine. You don't even have to have any belief, repentance, or faith at all. Even a deeply avowed Satanist can be saved if you just give them some of the consecrated bread to eat. And that's just as ridiculous and non-biblical, if not worse. Catholicism and Orthodox's literal interpretation of John chapter 6 simply doesn't hold water."

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It wouldn't mean that. See 1 Corinthians 11:27-29.

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Jesus said nothing about stipulations. He simply states that if you eat his flesh and drink his blood, you have eternal life. Period. If one can eat his flesh and drink his blood, but still NOT have eternal life because one did not meet a certain condition, then Jesus' statement is false.

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He's not expressly making an if/then statement, for whatever that's worth. I would argue he did add a condition, as the context of the passage suggests he's talking about a believer. In any case, Paul makes the condition clear.

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Sounds like an if/then statement to me: "Whoever does x, I will do y".

And there is nothing in the context that suggests he's limiting his statement to believers. "Whoever" is not a limiting term. Even if you want to look at it as only applying to believers, still that doesn't solve your problem with the thief on the cross. He was a believer, and he was saved. So how did he eat Jesus' flesh and drink his blood?

Nothing Paul stated about communion said there was a condition to having eternal life from "eating Jesus' flesh".

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He doesn't even say "whoever." He says "the [man] eating," which parallels "the [man] believing" and "the [man] having listened and learned" earlier in the passage. In only one instance does he add the modifier--"every [man] having listened and learned."

Eating and drinking condemnation on oneself doesn't indicate a condition? Hm.

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"The person/man who eats my flesh, has eternal life" - there is no difference with "whoever". The meaning is the exact same. That's why it's translated that way in virtually all bibles.

Where does Paul say that eating and drinking condemns oneself to Hell/loss of salvation? Do you really think he spent all that time and energy spreading a gospel of grace through faith, only to believe that simply eating and drinking something the wrong way will send you to Hell?

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The passage is about our relationship with God. What do you think he's condemning us to, another losing season in the Big 12?

BTW, I noticed that there is an if/then construction earlier in the chapter. I was only looking at the flesh verses, not the bread verses. But once again, it is speaking of "the [man] believing." Pretty clearly the verses are not about Satanists.

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He's condemning us to judgement to the point of death, not condemning us to Hell or loss of salvation.

What you're arguing regarding the "whoever (the man)" makes no sense. In the other verses, "the man" part and the "who believes" part correlate with the "the man" and "who eats my flesh" parts in the flesh verses. You're doing a funny thing where you take "the man who believes" and inserting/carrying over that whole phrase into the "the man" part of the flesh verse, like this: "the man who believes.... who eats my flesh has eternal life".

In other words, "the man believing/who believes" is saying "whoever believes" just as "the man eating my flesh" is saying "whoever eats my flesh". They're BOTH saying "whoever". Your reasoning here is all messed up.

And don't those other verses prove the point that "eating my flesh" means the same thing as "believing in Jesus"? The sentences are constructed almost exactly the same.

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I'm not carrying it over in terms of some explicit grammatical reference, but it's part of the rhetorical context. And Paul's words in 1 Corinthians seem to confirm it.

Of course it's not all that fruitful just to argue our own interpretations. That's what Church tradition is for.

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No, it's not part of any rhetorical context. You're just making this up. There just isn't any reason to believe that when Jesus said "the man who believes" that everything thereafter is in reference to this group, i.e. when he later says "the man who eats my flesh" he is only referring to a subset containing "the men who believe". There just isn't any reason to not take each of those phrases as being independent, each saying "whoever...." What you're doing to manipulate the meaning is really weird.

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It's a sermon, not a statute. Open your mind.

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Okay....but that doesn't invalidate anything I said. Maybe open YOUR mind?

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

Mothra and Team P, have y'all ever read Justin Martyr's First Apology?

He speaks at length on faith and works

Also Dialogue with Trypho regarding grace and works.

With this new wrinkle of renaming the topic slightly 2 posts back, are we using the word faith and grace interchangeably or are you considering it two distinct topics 1) grace alone vs grace and works and 2) faith alone vs faith and works?

Bear in mind Justin Martyr spoke directly with people that walked with the Apostles so it's about 44 generations of people in the telephone game between say Justin Martyr and Martin Luther.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra and Team P, have y'all ever read Justin Martyr's First Apology?

He speaks at length on faith and works

Also Dialogue with Trypho regarding grace and works.

With this new wrinkle of renaming the topic slightly 2 posts back, are we using the word faith and grace interchangeably or are you considering it two distinct topics 1) grace alone vs grace and works and 2) faith alone vs faith and works?

Bear in mind Justin Martyr spoke directly with people that walked with the Apostles so it's about 44 generations of people in the telephone game between say Justin Martyr and Martin Luther.

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Thanks for the recommendation. Happy to look at it.

I certainly can't speak for all Protestants, as I suspect I share more with the Catholic faith than a lot of Protestant denominations, but I think most of our differences here are probably semantic. What do each of us mean by "faith," as I referenced in my post above. Hopefully I cleared up any confusion on that topic.

The key difference between us is whether works are expected/required of us as an act of obedience, or whether works are expected/required of us to attain salvation. I believe scripture is crystal clear it is the former, as the latter is inconsistent with Christ's words and Paul's teachings. While there are numerous verses on the "free gift" of grace, I've yet to see any verses that are inconsistent with that position.

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 13:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Adding a comment or two as i have time. busy saturday. nice use of "get sprinkled" to patronize or marginalize baptism but ok.

"you seem to post treatises" - again, i gave 2 or 3 examples. you didnt like them. you said give me more and then i provided an avalanche of information supporting my and the Catholic and Holy Church Fathers' opinions both in verse and tradition. It was voluminous. I apologize, but Jesus and his followers spoke so voluminously in support of my position throughout the entire New Testament (even even just 1 example i provided from the OT) that it seemed you needed to see more examples to believe.

"go to church" - again, you seem to be flippantly saying this in almost a mocking tone (hard to tell from written word) COMMANDMENT Numero Tres - Remember to keep holy the Lord's day. So youre arguing vehemently nah bro all i need is to believe (or maybe even to have believed that one time at church camp) and i am saved. Yet you are given a COMMANDMENT. If you believe and yet you dont follow that COMMANDMENT where does that leave your soul? The action of "go to church" is a work of course.

"get sprinkled" - we can certainly go down the whole topic of Baptism but let's keep you narrowly focused for now as best we can

"participate in the eucharist" - see "get sprinkled"

So for sure, you can pick a single verse here and there and yet turn a blind eye to actions / works we are called to do "for salvation" repeatedly and suggest if you just live your life like a bump on a log, and one day back when you were 12 give your life to Christ and believe, that all is good. That is a fascinating perspective. Quite the eternal risk to be taking to ignore the 18 passages (and many more i could provide), many / most directly from the mouth of Jesus.

It is true, following the tenants of the Catholic faith are not easy, much is asked of us, and it would be nice to think that all that is required is to live life like a leaf on a stream with respect to one's Christian faith, and yet all that is needed is to look at a couple of verses and pick / choose those and I'm all good. Jesus says - In Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus says, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Even that verse would seem to fly in the face of what seems to be your core belief based on your more simplistic interpretation of what is required of us mere humans.

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

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It's Luke 13:5 where Jesus says "Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" NOT Luke 3:3.

Notice he didn't say repentance is what saves them to eternal life, though. Only that if they didn't repent, they would perish without eternal life. Because they couldn't come to faith in him if they weren't repentant. By the way, "repent" means to change one's mind toward God. It's not a work, it's something that's in the heart.

Now look in the same book, at Luke 7:36-50, the story of the sinful woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair and anointed them with perfume. Verse 50: "And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

what happened to the McChurch OP? Just curious as to what peoples take on the McChurch is.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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General comment: I didn't mean spewing in a derogatory manner. Try not to take offense. I will ignore the ad hominems, and answer your questions - but first a few comments.

1) Grace not Works: Ok, so if I understand you correctly, you believe that Paul isn't referring to Mosaic law when he refers to works "every time." I apologize for putting words in your mouth. That being the case, when he's not referring to Mosaic law, what is he referencing? For example, what is he referencing in Ephesians 2:8-9 when he says grace alone is sufficient, through faith? And just FYI, what we know of the church in Ephesus is that is was overwhelmingly Gentile.

2) Can you point out for me the passages of scripture that specifically mention attending Mass, being sprinkled, and participating in the Eucharist are required for salvation?

3) How is my interpretation of John 3:16-18 wrong, in your mind?

Now, I will try to answer your questions, even though I don't think they are all that relevant to our discussion:

1) Your Question 1: I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

2) Your Question 2: As I alluded to in my previous post, I believe Christ's use of the term "belief" in John 3:16-18 is synonymous with putting one's "faith" in Christ. And as I also said in my previous post, I think faith includes repentance. I will quote what I previously said on this subject: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ.

J.R. said:

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what happened to the McChurch OP? Just curious as to what peoples take on the McChurch is.

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Like all fast food, it tastes good and ends up killing you in the end.

D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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BUDOS said:

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Good points as is often the case; however, isn't the word of God and His teachings the foundation? Realizing I'm not the Bible scholar like a few of you, a quick example would be that the Triune God says we are to pray to Him, not anyone else. So, if that's what He said, why would it matter if a group of the smartest theologians said something else?
Why create another barrier? Don't We have enough Pharisees already? Not looking for a fight; just trying to learn why some seem to disagree.

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The "Triune God" is a creation of the early church and the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible.
Its creation was the result of our monotheistic roots in Judaism. The early church councils felt forced to defend a monotheistic God that also apparently believed in Jesus and Holy Spirit.
To me the Trinity is not essential to our faith.

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Was Jesus God or no?

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Fair question. But first I would ask; who is the Jesus of the gospel writers and kerygma of the early church? I don't doubt Jesus is historical but what we have is fragments of his words were redacted by the Synoptic gospel writers to highlight their theology organic to the church (churches) to which they were writing. However, I posit a historical and contextual understanding of gospels. German Biblical theologians called it "Sitz im Leben", that is, the church's historical situation.
The answer to your question is not binary.

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Cop out

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Quote:

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Cop out Not a cop out.

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Question: Who is the Jesus of the synoptic gospels and kerygma of the early church?
1) Premise: Jesus is historical
2) Premise: what we have is fragments of his words were redacted by the Synoptic gospel writers to highlight their theology
3) Premise : the gospels are organic to the church (or churches) to which they were writing.
4) Premise: I posit a historical and contextual understanding of gospels. German Biblical theologians called it "Sitz im Leben", that is, the church's historical situation and that context is hugely formative to the gospels

Conclusion: The answer to your question is not binary but complex.
Now your job is to refute my premises
Or you can cop out..

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Read Gen 1:2, Gen 1:26, John 1:1, John 1:14, John 1:32 and Matt 3:16

Those verses will tell you Who Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are.

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Deal with my premises. Which one (s) is wrong and why?

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The answer to his question is binary. Either Jesus is God, or Jesus is not God, and there is no context or historical situation surrounding the writing of the gospels that had the capacity to change that. Even if the Gospels had never been written, the answer to his question would be binary.

You have previously claimed that Jesus is not God, so it is difficult to understand why you decline to admit to your previously stated position. Never said that. If you actually dealt with my premises then you would know it is not a binary answer. But in your rush to corner me you simply ignore my argument

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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BUDOS said:

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Good points as is often the case; however, isn't the word of God and His teachings the foundation? Realizing I'm not the Bible scholar like a few of you, a quick example would be that the Triune God says we are to pray to Him, not anyone else. So, if that's what He said, why would it matter if a group of the smartest theologians said something else?
Why create another barrier? Don't We have enough Pharisees already? Not looking for a fight; just trying to learn why some seem to disagree.

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The "Triune God" is a creation of the early church and the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible.
Its creation was the result of our monotheistic roots in Judaism. The early church councils felt forced to defend a monotheistic God that also apparently believed in Jesus and Holy Spirit.
To me the Trinity is not essential to our faith.

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Was Jesus God or no?

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Fair question. But first I would ask; who is the Jesus of the gospel writers and kerygma of the early church? I don't doubt Jesus is historical but what we have is fragments of his words were redacted by the Synoptic gospel writers to highlight their theology organic to the church (churches) to which they were writing. However, I posit a historical and contextual understanding of gospels. German Biblical theologians called it "Sitz im Leben", that is, the church's historical situation.
The answer to your question is not binary.

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Cop out

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Quote:

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Cop out Not a cop out.

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Question: Who is the Jesus of the synoptic gospels and kerygma of the early church?
1) Premise: Jesus is historical
2) Premise: what we have is fragments of his words were redacted by the Synoptic gospel writers to highlight their theology
3) Premise : the gospels are organic to the church (or churches) to which they were writing.
4) Premise: I posit a historical and contextual understanding of gospels. German Biblical theologians called it "Sitz im Leben", that is, the church's historical situation and that context is hugely formative to the gospels

Conclusion: The answer to your question is not binary but complex.
Now your job is to refute my premises
Or you can cop out..

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Read Gen 1:2, Gen 1:26, John 1:1, John 1:14, John 1:32 and Matt 3:16

Those verses will tell you Who Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are.

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Deal with my premises. Which one (s) is wrong and why?

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The answer to his question is binary. Either Jesus is God, or Jesus is not God, and there is no context or historical situation surrounding the writing of the gospels that had the capacity to change that. Even if the Gospels had never been written, the answer to his question would be binary.

You have previously claimed that Jesus is not God, so it is difficult to understand why you decline to admit to your previously stated position. Never said that. If you actually dealt with my premises then you would know it is not a binary answer. But in your rush to corner me you simply ignore my argument

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Let's not pretend like you ever answered the question posed. Yes, you've said it's not a binary answer, and have described the answer as complex, but you've never provided an answer beyond those statements. You're just gaslighting at this point.

But I am happy to do what you don't appear capable of doing - responding to your question. In the Synoptic Gospels and the Kerygma of the early church, Jesus is portrayed as the Son of God, the Messiah, and the Savior of the world. Matthew, Mark and Luke all tell a similar story of Jesus' life, describing him as the "Son of God" and the long-awaited Messiah. Likewise, the Kerygma was the proclamation of Jesus as the Savior of the world, emphasizing that Jesus was literally and physically (and not figuratively) sent by God, died, was buried, rose from the dead, and was raised to heaven. The Kerygma goes on to describe Jesus's miraculous deeds (again, literally not figuratively) and the transformation of lives that followed.

This is of course consistent with the description of Christ as a literal and physical God.

Many people feel that we are in the Mellinium right now. Its the Church Age. How can that be ? Can't both be true.

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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BUDOS said:

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Good points as is often the case; however, isn't the word of God and His teachings the foundation? Realizing I'm not the Bible scholar like a few of you, a quick example would be that the Triune God says we are to pray to Him, not anyone else. So, if that's what He said, why would it matter if a group of the smartest theologians said something else?
Why create another barrier? Don't We have enough Pharisees already? Not looking for a fight; just trying to learn why some seem to disagree.

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The "Triune God" is a creation of the early church and the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible.
Its creation was the result of our monotheistic roots in Judaism. The early church councils felt forced to defend a monotheistic God that also apparently believed in Jesus and Holy Spirit.
To me the Trinity is not essential to our faith.

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Was Jesus God or no?

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Fair question. But first I would ask; who is the Jesus of the gospel writers and kerygma of the early church? I don't doubt Jesus is historical but what we have is fragments of his words were redacted by the Synoptic gospel writers to highlight their theology organic to the church (churches) to which they were writing. However, I posit a historical and contextual understanding of gospels. German Biblical theologians called it "Sitz im Leben", that is, the church's historical situation.
The answer to your question is not binary.

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Cop out

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Quote:

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Cop out Not a cop out.

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Question: Who is the Jesus of the synoptic gospels and kerygma of the early church?
1) Premise: Jesus is historical
2) Premise: what we have is fragments of his words were redacted by the Synoptic gospel writers to highlight their theology
3) Premise : the gospels are organic to the church (or churches) to which they were writing.
4) Premise: I posit a historical and contextual understanding of gospels. German Biblical theologians called it "Sitz im Leben", that is, the church's historical situation and that context is hugely formative to the gospels

Conclusion: The answer to your question is not binary but complex.
Now your job is to refute my premises
Or you can cop out..

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Read Gen 1:2, Gen 1:26, John 1:1, John 1:14, John 1:32 and Matt 3:16

Those verses will tell you Who Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are.

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Deal with my premises. Which one (s) is wrong and why?

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The answer to his question is binary. Either Jesus is God, or Jesus is not God, and there is no context or historical situation surrounding the writing of the gospels that had the capacity to change that. Even if the Gospels had never been written, the answer to his question would be binary.

You have previously claimed that Jesus is not God, so it is difficult to understand why you decline to admit to your previously stated position. Never said that. If you actually dealt with my premises then you would know it is not a binary answer. But in your rush to corner me you simply ignore my argument

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You have claimed previously and repeatedly in various posts that the supernatural, God intervening in the physical world, does not exist. However, for Jesus to be God requires a supernatural event, which Christians call the incarnation. When you deny the supernatural you simultaneously deny Jesus being God.

I am not ignoring your argument. I am pointing out that your argument is irrelevant to the question of whether or not Jesus is God.

It is this simple: either Jesus is God or Jesus is not God.

Is Jesus God? This is a binary question with a binary answer. There is no premise or group of premises that can change this.

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

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Thanks. Can you cite some verses that support the idea that "our cooperation" is required? Anything to support the position that salvation is not a "free gift," as Paul says, but requires a number of acts on our part? Anything that supports the position that Mass attendance, baptism, and participating in the Eucharist are prerequisites to salvation?

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Mothra said:

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Mothra said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

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I totally agree this is the most important disagreement - over the Gospel of salvation itself.

Please answer this question: If a person hears the gospel, comes to believe in Jesus and puts their faith in him for their salvation, but dies right after - are they saved? Take that same person, but they live long enough to become 50% more righteous, then they die - are they saved? Do you have to "made" a certain level of righteousness in this life in order to be saved? If so, what level is that?

And if so, how was the thief on the cross saved after only repenting and confessing his faith in Jesus? Why did Jesus tell the sinful woman in 7:50 "your faith has saved you"? Why does Paul say in Romans 4:5 "And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness"?

Mothra said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

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Thanks. Can you cite some verses that support the idea that "our cooperation" is required? Anything to support the position that salvation is not a "free gift," as Paul says, but requires a number of acts on our part? Anything that supports the position that Mass attendance, baptism, and participating in the Eucharist are prerequisites to salvation?

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John 1
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

These are, I think, the most tragic as well as the most beautiful and the most hopeful words ever written. There seems to be a role for people in this story.

D. C. Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

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Thanks. Can you cite some verses that support the idea that "our cooperation" is required? Anything to support the position that salvation is not a "free gift," as Paul says, but requires a number of acts on our part? Anything that supports the position that Mass attendance, baptism, and participating in the Eucharist are prerequisites to salvation?

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John 1
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

These are, I think, the most tragic as well as the most beautiful and the most hopeful words ever written. There seems to be a role for people in this story.

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Great verses, though I am not sure how they answer the questions to Sam.

Mothra said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

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Thanks. Can you cite some verses that support the idea that "our cooperation" is required? Anything to support the position that salvation is not a "free gift," as Paul says, but requires a number of acts on our part? Anything that supports the position that Mass attendance, baptism, and participating in the Eucharist are prerequisites to salvation?

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John 1
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

These are, I think, the most tragic as well as the most beautiful and the most hopeful words ever written. There seems to be a role for people in this story.

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Great verses, though I am not sure how they answer the questions to Sam.

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I think we have the choice to receive him as described in verse 12, and this represents a "requirement" for us.

D. C. Bear said:

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Mothra said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

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Thanks. Can you cite some verses that support the idea that "our cooperation" is required? Anything to support the position that salvation is not a "free gift," as Paul says, but requires a number of acts on our part? Anything that supports the position that Mass attendance, baptism, and participating in the Eucharist are prerequisites to salvation?

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John 1
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

These are, I think, the most tragic as well as the most beautiful and the most hopeful words ever written. There seems to be a role for people in this story.

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Great verses, though I am not sure how they answer the questions to Sam.

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I think we have the choice to receive him as described in verse 12, and this represents a "requirement" for us.

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I'm pretty sure by "cooperation" they mean requirements outside of belief and faith to make one righteous and thus saved.

D. C. Bear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

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Thanks. Can you cite some verses that support the idea that "our cooperation" is required? Anything to support the position that salvation is not a "free gift," as Paul says, but requires a number of acts on our part? Anything that supports the position that Mass attendance, baptism, and participating in the Eucharist are prerequisites to salvation?

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John 1
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

These are, I think, the most tragic as well as the most beautiful and the most hopeful words ever written. There seems to be a role for people in this story.

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Great verses, though I am not sure how they answer the questions to Sam.

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I think we have the choice to receive him as described in verse 12, and this represents a "requirement" for us.

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As a Calvinist, not sure I can agree. It's not a free gift if it requires some action on our part, IMO.

But more specifically, I was looking for something beyond mere belief in my post to Sam. If you've read his posts, he believes certain actions are required beyond mere belief.

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

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Thanks. Can you cite some verses that support the idea that "our cooperation" is required? Anything to support the position that salvation is not a "free gift," as Paul says, but requires a number of acts on our part? Anything that supports the position that Mass attendance, baptism, and participating in the Eucharist are prerequisites to salvation?

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John 1
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

These are, I think, the most tragic as well as the most beautiful and the most hopeful words ever written. There seems to be a role for people in this story.

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Great verses, though I am not sure how they answer the questions to Sam.

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I think we have the choice to receive him as described in verse 12, and this represents a "requirement" for us.

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I'm pretty sure by "cooperation" they mean requirements outside of belief and faith to make one righteous and thus saved.

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Indeed, Sam admitted as much. DC coming into this discussion late, and without context.

Per you usual you fall understand the historical, contextual, aspects of the NT and the underlying philosophy that supports your position.. You are taking a text literally.

Waco1947 said:

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Per you usual you fall understand the historical, contextual, aspects of the NT and the underlying philosophy that supports your position.. You are taking a text literally.

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Per your usual, you failed to explain how I am wrong, failed to provide your own explanation, and - yet again - failed to provide your OWN answer to the question.

Let me know when you are brave enough to answer the question, as I did. Until then, I expect you to continue to act like the cowardly false teacher that you are.

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

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Thanks. Can you cite some verses that support the idea that "our cooperation" is required? Anything to support the position that salvation is not a "free gift," as Paul says, but requires a number of acts on our part? Anything that supports the position that Mass attendance, baptism, and participating in the Eucharist are prerequisites to salvation?

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John 1
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

These are, I think, the most tragic as well as the most beautiful and the most hopeful words ever written. There seems to be a role for people in this story.

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Great verses, though I am not sure how they answer the questions to Sam.

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I think we have the choice to receive him as described in verse 12, and this represents a "requirement" for us.

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As a Calvinist, not sure I can agree. It's not a free gift if it requires some action on our part, IMO.

But more specifically, I was looking for something beyond mere belief in my post to Sam. If you've read his posts, he believes certain actions are required beyond mere belief.

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Something on our part beyond "mere" belief seems to be involved. Jesus didn't tell his disciples to "believe" in him but to "follow" him.

I think that a "free gift" can be rejected.

The enemy within the Catholic Church. Interesting to
Observe from afar

This can’t be explained away, Pope Francis’ accusations and condemnations of traditional Catholic faith undermine his responsibility to shepherd the flock of Christ. pic.twitter.com/ChSyr8igJg

— Bishop J. Strickland (@BishStrickland) January 20, 2025

D. C. Bear said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

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Thanks. Can you cite some verses that support the idea that "our cooperation" is required? Anything to support the position that salvation is not a "free gift," as Paul says, but requires a number of acts on our part? Anything that supports the position that Mass attendance, baptism, and participating in the Eucharist are prerequisites to salvation?

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John 1
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

These are, I think, the most tragic as well as the most beautiful and the most hopeful words ever written. There seems to be a role for people in this story.

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Great verses, though I am not sure how they answer the questions to Sam.

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I think we have the choice to receive him as described in verse 12, and this represents a "requirement" for us.

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As a Calvinist, not sure I can agree. It's not a free gift if it requires some action on our part, IMO.

But more specifically, I was looking for something beyond mere belief in my post to Sam. If you've read his posts, he believes certain actions are required beyond mere belief.

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Something on our part beyond "mere" belief seems to be involved. Jesus didn't tell his disciples to "believe" in him but to "follow" him.

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What actions do you feel are necessary to earn salvation?

Waco1947 said:

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Per you usual you fall understand the historical, contextual, aspects of the NT and the underlying philosophy that supports your position.. You are taking a text literally.

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The central historical and contextual aspects of the Gospels are literal claims that Jesus Christ is literally the son of God, that he literally died, and that he literally rose from the dead. The gospels are not written as allegory or poetry. They are written as literal accounts of literal people experiencing literal events. Given this, it is entirely appropriate to take the gospel texts literally.

Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

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Thanks. Can you cite some verses that support the idea that "our cooperation" is required? Anything to support the position that salvation is not a "free gift," as Paul says, but requires a number of acts on our part? Anything that supports the position that Mass attendance, baptism, and participating in the Eucharist are prerequisites to salvation?

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John 1
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

These are, I think, the most tragic as well as the most beautiful and the most hopeful words ever written. There seems to be a role for people in this story.

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Great verses, though I am not sure how they answer the questions to Sam.

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I think we have the choice to receive him as described in verse 12, and this represents a "requirement" for us.

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As a Calvinist, not sure I can agree. It's not a free gift if it requires some action on our part, IMO.

But more specifically, I was looking for something beyond mere belief in my post to Sam. If you've read his posts, he believes certain actions are required beyond mere belief.

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Something on our part beyond "mere" belief seems to be involved. Jesus didn't tell his disciples to "believe" in him but to "follow" him.

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What actions do you feel are necessary to earn salvation?

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I would say that no actions are or can be necessary to earn salvation since salvation is not earned.

Death is earned, life is given.

Anti pope and heretic

🚨 BREAKING: Pope Francis describes Trump's plan to deport every undocumented migrant as a calamity: "Those who want to build walls and not bridges are not Christians."

Thoughts? pic.twitter.com/U0ZjQLud5M

— Brother Wallace (@_brotherwallace) January 20, 2025

D. C. Bear said:

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Mothra said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Mothra said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Mothra said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Mothra said:

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You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."

When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.

While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.

There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.

There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?

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That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.

So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.

Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.

Here's one of many which will suffice;



"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)

Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy

It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:

"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)

Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.

But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.

I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"

Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it

And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.

Now that that is settled,

Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"

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This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.

<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".

Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>

1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.


<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>

2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.

<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>

3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>

Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>

Romans 3:24

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>

2 Timothy 1:9 E

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>

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Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.

QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"

Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"

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It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.

That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?

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To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.

Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)

So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)

I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"

Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?

So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?

The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.

Yours picks some and ignores the others.

You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"

You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.


You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?

Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.

Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.

Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.

I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.

I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".

I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"

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You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.

So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk

1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?

I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.


2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?

"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),

This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.

QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.

Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.

So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:

Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.

QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?

Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.

I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.

3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.

4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.

I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.

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I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).

This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.

Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.

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I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.

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This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.

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Thanks. Can you cite some verses that support the idea that "our cooperation" is required? Anything to support the position that salvation is not a "free gift," as Paul says, but requires a number of acts on our part? Anything that supports the position that Mass attendance, baptism, and participating in the Eucharist are prerequisites to salvation?

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John 1
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

These are, I think, the most tragic as well as the most beautiful and the most hopeful words ever written. There seems to be a role for people in this story.

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Great verses, though I am not sure how they answer the questions to Sam.

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I think we have the choice to receive him as described in verse 12, and this represents a "requirement" for us.

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As a Calvinist, not sure I can agree. It's not a free gift if it requires some action on our part, IMO.

But more specifically, I was looking for something beyond mere belief in my post to Sam. If you've read his posts, he believes certain actions are required beyond mere belief.

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Something on our part beyond "mere" belief seems to be involved. Jesus didn't tell his disciples to "believe" in him but to "follow" him.

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What actions do you feel are necessary to earn salvation?

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I would say that no actions are or can be necessary to earn salvation since salvation is not earned.

Death is earned, life is given.

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Thanks for the clarification. Regarding belief, as I told another poster on this very thread, I believe Christ's use of the term "belief" in John 3:16-18 is synonymous with putting one's "faith" in Christ. When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) and to save him.

So I am not sure I would say anything beyond Christ's words in John 3:16-18 is actually necessary to be saved. And I believe it is God who chose us, not the other way around.

Fre3dombear said:

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Anti pope and heretic

🚨 BREAKING: Pope Francis describes Trump's plan to deport every undocumented migrant as a calamity: "Those who want to build walls and not bridges are not Christians."

Thoughts? pic.twitter.com/U0ZjQLud5M

— Brother Wallace (@_brotherwallace) January 20, 2025

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Wait a second. We talking about the guy who Catholics maintain is the direct successor of St Peter - the God-ordained head of the church on earth? Surely, you're not suggesting that God put a heretic in a place of leadership of Christians everywhere, are you?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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1. The Eucharist doesn't help to forgive mortal sins. It strengthens us in our struggle against the flesh by putting the life of Christ within us.

2. No, he can be forgiven through confession or by asking God's forgiveness with the sincere intent to confess as soon as possible.

3. It is absolutely necessary for us, with two caveats. Only we are bound by it, not God. And it includes not only baptism by water but also by martyrdom and by desire.

4. John 6, 1 Corinthians 11, Matthew 16, 1 John 1.

5. The short answer is believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but belief is only the first step leading to salvation. Mere intellectual belief accomplishes nothing. To be saved you must repent, have faith, and be baptized.

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"To be saved, you must repent, have faith, and be baptized"

You had just stated that water baptism was NOT absolutely necessary for salvation. Now you are saying it is. This is precisely the "double talk" I've been pointing out with Roman Catholicism.

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It is an absolute necessity, with the caveats I explained above.

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I appreciate the thoughtful response, but once again have to point out the thief on the cross. Clearly baptism was not a necessity for him.

Christ and his disciples made quite clear in scripture that water baptism, while an act of obedience, is unnecessary for salvation. The idea that this simple, ministerial act as a baby somehow contributes to salvation, is simply incompatible with the nature of God as expressed in the gospels. The idea that God is going to condemn someone who has repented of his sins and gives his life to Christ, but didn't have an opportunity to have this simple ministerial act performed, aside from having no support aim scripture ,just doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint.

And once again, to reiterate, the thief on the cross.

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You have to acquaint yourself with the usual Roman Catholic double-talk: salvation by grace that you have to work for; God binds us to sacraments that He is not bounded by; an absolute necessity with caveats... dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

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I would suggest being more lawyerly and less legalistic. Read the Old Testament. Like any wise lawgiver, God has always issued commands that applied to some people, places, or situations and not others. The idea that he's unbound by the sacraments isn't difficult to understand.

And by the way, when I say God has "always" issued such commands, I mean it's always been a thing that he's done. I don't mean he's always done it in every single instance. So let's not open that debate, please.

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If God is unbound to where He can exempt someone from the sacraments, then we are never truly bound by them.

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Sorry, I'm not seeing the part where this meme shows I'm wrong.

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Your conclusion doesn't follow. Always arguing via assertion. Typical.