LIB,MR BEARS said:

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I recently had a nephew pass away. He did a lot of good things but he struggled for years with drugs and alcohol. He was living a horrible life at the time of his death. I know he knew what the gospel was but I've no idea if he ever accepted Christ as his Savior.

When I learned of his death I prayed "Lord, please let it be that ### was a Christian."

I'm Protestant and look at it like this-God exist outside of time. He has foreknowledge of all things including that I would pray that prayer. Did He answer that prayer, prior to it being prayed? I've no idea but, the Psalmist said "You know my thoughts before I think them. You know where I go and where I lie down. You know everything I do. LORD, even before I say a word, you already know it."

I would not describe my prayer as praying a relative into heaven but it was a sincere prayer.

---

Believe me when I tell you I understand the emotional reasons behind this. I have several relatives who've passed away recently who were clearly not Christian, including a beloved cousin who was in his late twenties and like a son to me. He was actually raised in the church, and likewise knew the Gospel. I continued to witness to him throughout his life, but I can honestly say I saw no evidence he was saved, and God is clear in scripture if they are saved, we WILL see evidence. He was an avowed Atheist at the time of his death.

It is gut-wrenching to think of where they might be, but I suffer under no delusion that my prayers will save them AFTER their deaths. Even the demons know the Gospel. It's repentance and a turning toward Jesus in life that is the key.

Mothra said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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I recently had a nephew pass away. He did a lot of good things but he struggled for years with drugs and alcohol. He was living a horrible life at the time of his death. I know he knew what the gospel was but I've no idea if he ever accepted Christ as his Savior.

When I learned of his death I prayed "Lord, please let it be that ### was a Christian."

I'm Protestant and look at it like this-God exist outside of time. He has foreknowledge of all things including that I would pray that prayer. Did He answer that prayer, prior to it being prayed? I've no idea but, the Psalmist said "You know my thoughts before I think them. You know where I go and where I lie down. You know everything I do. LORD, even before I say a word, you already know it."

I would not describe my prayer as praying a relative into heaven but it was a sincere prayer.

---

Believe me when I tell you I understand the emotional reasons behind this. I have several relatives who've passed away recently who were clearly not Christian, including a beloved cousin who was in his late twenties and like a son to me. He was actually raised in the church, and likewise knew the Gospel. I continued to witness to him throughout his life, but I can honestly say I saw no evidence he was saved, and God is clear in scripture if they are saved, we WILL see evidence. He was an avowed Atheist at the time of his death.

It is gut-wrenching to think of where they might be, but I suffer under no delusion that my prayers will save them AFTER their deaths. Even the demons know the Gospel. It's repentance and a turning toward Jesus in life that is the key.

---

I know the feeling. The thing you hang your hat on is that (1) Our knowledge is imperfect, God's is not and (2) God is a better balancer of justice and mercy than any of us.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

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Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

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Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.

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I'll take a shot at this, as the answer is pretty simple.

We ask other believers and brothers in Christ to pray for us because they are 1) believers; and 2) alive. See James 5:16.

Praying to a long dead mortal is like praying to your long dead drinking buddy. It's worthless.

---

Well a whole ton of context on purgatory and many verses in revelation etc state otherwise

But at worst it's a waste of time and at best….

@mothra - if you have lost a parent or a grandparent etc, you've never prayed for them after their passing or asked them to pray for you or look out for you?

That'd be impressive to stick to one's guns if so. I did have a protestant buddy of mine tell me if someone hadn't been baptized they couldn't go to heaven. I said so what age do you baptize? He said of course when they feel called or generally around 8-12. I said God forbid your son is killed when he chases a ball into the street at the age of say 4. Where does he go?

His jaw dropped. Then I got no answer.

In the end many things we don't "know" definitively and of course so much deoends upon faith but it is interesting to see how the newer denominations reason things out vs the reasoning of the Catholic and orthodox faiths and makes for good discussion

---

The belief that you must be water baptized or you don't go to heaven is a Catholic/Orthodox belief, not a Protestant one. That's why Catholics/Orthodox believe in infant baptism.

So when I ask them what happens to the person who believes in Jesus and puts their trust in him for their salvation, but dies before they are water baptized, they too drop their jaws, or, their answer either completely contradicts their belief or completely contradicts Scripture.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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I recently had a nephew pass away. He did a lot of good things but he struggled for years with drugs and alcohol. He was living a horrible life at the time of his death. I know he knew what the gospel was but I've no idea if he ever accepted Christ as his Savior.

When I learned of his death I prayed "Lord, please let it be that ### was a Christian."

I'm Protestant and look at it like this-God exist outside of time. He has foreknowledge of all things including that I would pray that prayer. Did He answer that prayer, prior to it being prayed? I've no idea but, the Psalmist said "You know my thoughts before I think them. You know where I go and where I lie down. You know everything I do. LORD, even before I say a word, you already know it."

I would not describe my prayer as praying a relative into heaven but it was a sincere prayer.

---

There is nothing wrong with praying to God that someone had been saved in their life and is in heaven. In fact, I would expect a Christian to do that for departed people they deeply loved. But the concept of praying people INTO heaven from hell or "purgatory" isn't biblical. I don't think it's necessarily evil to ask God for mercy for someone in hell, even asking Him to let that person go to heaven. It's loving. You can ask God for anything. Whatever is in your heart to ask Him, I'm sure He wants you to come to Him for it. At worst, He'll just say no.

Praying to God for someone to be out of "purgatory" tells God you believe in purgatory, which means that you don't believe in the sufficient work of Jesus on the cross as a substitutionary atonement for all sin. It tells God that you don't believe in His gospel. That prayer would be very problematic.

Mothra said:

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Waco1947 said:

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In your estimation I am avoiding the question.
I stated my premises with regards to Jesus as the Son of God. That's my answer and it is not binary.

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It's not just his estimation, but everyone's. Sorry, but there isn't a reasonable person on this board who could read your non-answer and claim you're not avoiding the question. That is exactly what you're doing and what you always do. You're being intellectually dishonest to suggest you've answered it.

The question of whether Jesus is God or not requires a simple yes or no. He either is he who says he is, or he isn't. Sure, we can debate what you believe a "God" is, but the answer to this question shouldn't be difficult for any Christian.

And the fact you cannot provide a straight answer to what should be a simple question for any person who calls themselves "Christian" speaks volumes.

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Everyone does not make them right. A historical, contextual and canonical (how the canon came to be) approach to the Bible is my argument. no one has dealt with those Biblical scholarship. I would look forward to response about the historical, contextual and canonical approach to scripture. I consider a "harmonizing" view of Scripture in which God dictates scripture from Generations to Revolutions (joke) to be wrong. Maybe I sdib't mean wrong but lacking in rigorous scholarship

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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In your estimation I am avoiding the question.
I stated my premises with regards to Jesus as the Son of God. That's my answer and it is not binary.

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like I said, cop out

Why Immanuel?

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Not till you deal with my premises. Which one is wrong?
Question: Who is the Jesus of the synoptic gospels and kerygma of the early church?
1) Premise: Jesus is historical
2) Premise: what we have is fragments of his words were redacted by the Synoptic gospel writers to highlight their theology
3) Premise : the gospels are organic to the church (or churches) to which they were writing.
4) Premise: I posit a historical and contextual understanding of gospels. German Biblical theologians called it "Sitz im Leben", that is, the church's historical situation and that context is hugely formative to the gospels

Conclusion: The answer to your question is not binary but complex.
Now your job is to refute my premises

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

---

Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.

---

I'll take a shot at this, as the answer is pretty simple.

We ask other believers and brothers in Christ to pray for us because they are 1) believers; and 2) alive. See James 5:16.

Praying to a long dead mortal is like praying to your long dead drinking buddy. It's worthless.

---

Well a whole ton of context on purgatory and many verses in revelation etc state otherwise

But at worst it's a waste of time and at best….

@mothra - if you have lost a parent or a grandparent etc, you've never prayed for them after their passing or asked them to pray for you or look out for you?

That'd be impressive to stick to one's guns if so. I did have a protestant buddy of mine tell me if someone hadn't been baptized they couldn't go to heaven. I said so what age do you baptize? He said of course when they feel called or generally around 8-12. I said God forbid your son is killed when he chases a ball into the street at the age of say 4. Where does he go?

His jaw dropped. Then I got no answer.

In the end many things we don't "know" definitively and of course so much deoends upon faith but it is interesting to see how the newer denominations reason things out vs the reasoning of the Catholic and orthodox faiths and makes for good discussion

---

No, there are no verses in Revelation or anywhere else in scripture that state otherwise. In discussions with my Catholic friends on their non-biblical practice of praying to dead relatives, they like you have referenced Revelation, and in particular 5:8 which talks about saints carrying incense, which are the prayers of man. But there are no verses in Revelation that state we should pray to the saints, or request that they take our prayers to God. It's an entirely man-made practice. And for the record, so is purgatory - made up by man. There is no mention of purgatory or anything like it in scripture.

No, I have never prayed to a dead parent, grandparent or any other relative. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I take my prayers directly to him, his father, or the Holy Spirit, although I do ask him to tell them "hi" from time to time.

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This is of course incorrect. But you just saying so doesn't make your opinion correct.

Btw do Protestants believe in guardian angels? What is their opinion there?

Interesting. So a Protestant would never say "God, please forgive memaw for all her sins?"

That sounds rather sad if true. Is it because they think it's a sin to pray for them? Or what do they believe is the harm to their own soul to do so?

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Feel free to post the scriptural support for your position, if you are able. What specific verses talk about praying to saints?

As for what "Protestants" believe, there is as much divergence among Protestants as there is between Catholics and Protestants, so I can't say what "Protestants" believe. I can say our church believes in angels and guardian angels, as that is scriptural. I can also say our church doesn't believe baptism is necessary for salvation, as there is no scriptural support for that position. That said, there is also no scriptural support for infant baptism.

No, a protestant would never say forgive a dead person for their sins. Once they're dead, it's too late for them. And yes, it is sad. That is why telling others about Jesus is so important to Jesus. Once they're dead, it's too late.

All of what I told you is strongly supported by scripture. I would suggest doing some research before you accept Catholic dogma as the Gospel.

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Lol. I appreciate your suggestion.

Many of the things you posted are simply incorrect and we'll build this up over several posts. Had to chuckle at your suggestion though.

And fair point, I won't assume anyone is "Protestant" or Baptist. That of course is one of the challenges with 40,000 denominations of "Christian's" vs a 2,000 year old church like the Catholic faith.

One can drive down the road and just get a different opinion

That's not to say the Catholic faith doesn't have differences as it does and has had heretics, antipopes, etc.

Many even consider the current pop an anti pope and have many good reasons to believe so.

So yes, it's complicated but Much much more consistent across a couple billion people with an overwhelmingly consistent teaching

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Given you're a Catholic, I likewise chuckled at you laughing at the idea of actually posting scripture in support of your position. That's so very Catholic.

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Why? Just because you want to believe Catholics don't know the Bible doesn't make it so. Nice try lol

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Praying for the dead - now it may be that only Protestants don't do this as that seems to be the people most emotionally against it and most other faiths unanimously do do this.

When I've mentioned 2 Maccabees to them sometimes an non Catholic thinking themselves astute will say something like "that's not scripture".

What would you say to that example, as just one, since I shouldn't necessarily lump you in with others of faith I've discussed this with before?

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So, Christians should pray to dead people because "other faiths" do it? Hmm. I am not sure that's a very strong argument in support of your position. Because the Muslims pray to the dead, we should as well?

As for 2 Maccabees, there is a reason that the Apocrypha are not included in most Christian bibles. I won't get into all of the reasons, but the lack of consistency with the other 66 books, and in some case completely diametric teachings, calls into question its reliability. While it does mention praying FOR people who have passed on, it doesn't mention purgatory, and that is literally the only place the idea of praying FOR the dead is mentioned in the Catholic Bible (yet another piece of evidence calling into question its reliability). It also does not say the dead can answer prayers, or that God will save them after death.

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Why would saying other faiths be the basis. It's just a data point and Catholicism is the OriginalChristian faith anyway and of course provided the very Bible from which you ostensibly sola scripture

Ok so we're getting somewhere. You agree on praying for those that have passed? If not let me know. As that will form the basis of what comes next.

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Angels / guardian angels - ok so you believe in guardian angels and angels. Wouldn't that imply they are aware of what you are doing? Would that not also imply, if you do indeed believe they exist, that they can in some way affect what is happening to you in this temporal world?

Do you believe in them but not call in them? Or what is their purpose to you?

Are angels above or below human souls in heaven?

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Of course I believe in angels. I haven't met a protestant who doesn't, so I am not sure why you are hyper-focused on this issue. Both the OT and NT are replete with examples of angels of the Lord who are his helpers on earth.

With respect to personal guardian angels that watch over us, while the idea of personal guardian angels is not explicitly referenced in Scripture, there are passages in Scripture that suggest their existence. Matt 18:10.

No, I do not pray to the angels. There is no examples of prayer to angels in scripture. We pray to God. Now, he may use his angels to assist us, but there is no evidence in scripture they hear or answer our prayers.

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I'm not hyper focused on any issue. Why is that the go to here when people start struggling? I haven't given any more weight to any one topic or another however most here are pretty smart and can take multi pronged, complex topics without having to fully dumb it down and spoon feed it.

Who's we?

So angels are aware of us, even come talk to us, yet don't hear anything from us? That would be logically inconsistent.

And even your own Bible from the Catholics says not to be sola scriptura but assuming ostensibly you are that would be an interesting cherry pick of your own sola scriptura dogma. I could quote the crop the but that would be un Catholic you say?

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

---

Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.

---

I'll take a shot at this, as the answer is pretty simple.

We ask other believers and brothers in Christ to pray for us because they are 1) believers; and 2) alive. See James 5:16.

Praying to a long dead mortal is like praying to your long dead drinking buddy. It's worthless.

---

Well a whole ton of context on purgatory and many verses in revelation etc state otherwise

But at worst it's a waste of time and at best….

@mothra - if you have lost a parent or a grandparent etc, you've never prayed for them after their passing or asked them to pray for you or look out for you?

That'd be impressive to stick to one's guns if so. I did have a protestant buddy of mine tell me if someone hadn't been baptized they couldn't go to heaven. I said so what age do you baptize? He said of course when they feel called or generally around 8-12. I said God forbid your son is killed when he chases a ball into the street at the age of say 4. Where does he go?

His jaw dropped. Then I got no answer.

In the end many things we don't "know" definitively and of course so much deoends upon faith but it is interesting to see how the newer denominations reason things out vs the reasoning of the Catholic and orthodox faiths and makes for good discussion

---

No, there are no verses in Revelation or anywhere else in scripture that state otherwise. In discussions with my Catholic friends on their non-biblical practice of praying to dead relatives, they like you have referenced Revelation, and in particular 5:8 which talks about saints carrying incense, which are the prayers of man. But there are no verses in Revelation that state we should pray to the saints, or request that they take our prayers to God. It's an entirely man-made practice. And for the record, so is purgatory - made up by man. There is no mention of purgatory or anything like it in scripture.

No, I have never prayed to a dead parent, grandparent or any other relative. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I take my prayers directly to him, his father, or the Holy Spirit, although I do ask him to tell them "hi" from time to time.

---

Btw why do Protestants always talk of a "personal relationship with Jesus" like it's something they have that other Christian's don't? A phrase that came into existence in the 1900s.

How can one be a practicing Christian and not have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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In your estimation I am avoiding the question.
I stated my premises with regards to Jesus as the Son of God. That's my answer and it is not binary.

---

like I said, cop out

Why Immanuel?

---

Not till you deal with my premises. Which one is wrong?
Question: Who is the Jesus of the synoptic gospels and kerygma of the early church?
1) Premise: Jesus is historical
2) Premise: what we have is fragments of his words were redacted by the Synoptic gospel writers to highlight their theology
3) Premise : the gospels are organic to the church (or churches) to which they were writing.
4) Premise: I posit a historical and contextual understanding of gospels. German Biblical theologians called it "Sitz im Leben", that is, the church's historical situation and that context is hugely formative to the gospels

Conclusion: The answer to your question is not binary but complex.
Now your job is to refute my premises

---

dnkose me

Waco1947 said:

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Mothra said:

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Waco1947 said:

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In your estimation I am avoiding the question.
I stated my premises with regards to Jesus as the Son of God. That's my answer and it is not binary.

---

It's not just his estimation, but everyone's. Sorry, but there isn't a reasonable person on this board who could read your non-answer and claim you're not avoiding the question. That is exactly what you're doing and what you always do. You're being intellectually dishonest to suggest you've answered it.

The question of whether Jesus is God or not requires a simple yes or no. He either is he who says he is, or he isn't. Sure, we can debate what you believe a "God" is, but the answer to this question shouldn't be difficult for any Christian.

And the fact you cannot provide a straight answer to what should be a simple question for any person who calls themselves "Christian" speaks volumes.

---

Everyone does not make them right. A historical, contextual and canonical (how the canon came to be) approach to the Bible is my argument. no one has dealt with those Biblical scholarship. I would look forward to response about the historical, contextual and canonical approach to scripture. I consider a "harmonizing" view of Scripture in which God dictates scripture from Generations to Revolutions (joke) to be wrong. Maybe I sdib't mean wrong but lacking in rigorous scholarship

---

The fact you have not answered a simple yes or no question makes it right. That is an objective reality.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Praying for the dead - now it may be that only Protestants don't do this as that seems to be the people most emotionally against it and most other faiths unanimously do do this.

When I've mentioned 2 Maccabees to them sometimes an non Catholic thinking themselves astute will say something like "that's not scripture".

What would you say to that example, as just one, since I shouldn't necessarily lump you in with others of faith I've discussed this with before?

---

So, Christians should pray to dead people because "other faiths" do it? Hmm. I am not sure that's a very strong argument in support of your position. Because the Muslims pray to the dead, we should as well?

As for 2 Maccabees, there is a reason that the Apocrypha are not included in most Christian bibles. I won't get into all of the reasons, but the lack of consistency with the other 66 books, and in some case completely diametric teachings, calls into question its reliability. While it does mention praying FOR people who have passed on, it doesn't mention purgatory, and that is literally the only place the idea of praying FOR the dead is mentioned in the Catholic Bible (yet another piece of evidence calling into question its reliability). It also does not say the dead can answer prayers, or that God will save them after death.

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Why would saying other faiths be the basis. It's just a data point and Catholicism is the OriginalChristian faith anyway and of course provided the very Bible from which you ostensibly sola scripture

Ok so we're getting somewhere. You agree on praying for those that have passed? If not let me know. As that will form the basis of what comes next.

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1) Whether another faith believes something is irrelevant to whether a practice is biblical.

2) The original Christian faith was the Christian faith. There were no Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, despite what you may have learned in CCD. The current iteration of Catholicism began around 600 AD.

3) Did you read what I wrote? If so, I am trying to figure out how you concluded I agree we should pray for those who passed. If someone wants to pray for some already dead person, they can certainly do so. It won't change anything, but if it makes them feel better, I have no issue with it.

4) Sounds like you agree with me there is no biblical support for praying to someone who has passed, since you have failed to cite any scripture in support of same.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Angels / guardian angels - ok so you believe in guardian angels and angels. Wouldn't that imply they are aware of what you are doing? Would that not also imply, if you do indeed believe they exist, that they can in some way affect what is happening to you in this temporal world?

Do you believe in them but not call in them? Or what is their purpose to you?

Are angels above or below human souls in heaven?

---

Of course I believe in angels. I haven't met a protestant who doesn't, so I am not sure why you are hyper-focused on this issue. Both the OT and NT are replete with examples of angels of the Lord who are his helpers on earth.

With respect to personal guardian angels that watch over us, while the idea of personal guardian angels is not explicitly referenced in Scripture, there are passages in Scripture that suggest their existence. Matt 18:10.

No, I do not pray to the angels. There is no examples of prayer to angels in scripture. We pray to God. Now, he may use his angels to assist us, but there is no evidence in scripture they hear or answer our prayers.

---

I'm not hyper focused on any issue. Why is that the go to here when people start struggling? I haven't given any more weight to any one topic or another however most here are pretty smart and can take multi pronged, complex topics without having to fully dumb it down and spoon feed it.

Who's we?

So angels are aware of us, even come talk to us, yet don't hear anything from us? That would be logically inconsistent.

And even your own Bible from the Catholics says not to be sola scriptura but assuming ostensibly you are that would be an interesting cherry pick of your own sola scriptura dogma. I could quote the crop the but that would be un Catholic you say?

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1) Can you cite a single example in scripture of an individual praying to angels, or an angel answering an individual's prayer?

2) Is it your position that when you pray, every angel hears your prayer? If so, that's interesting. Personally, I can't find any scriptural support for that position, but I suppose an angel could hear me praying. I know God can, which is why I pray directly to him. Why would you go around the big guy if we don't know for sure the angels can hear or answer our prayers?

3) We is Christians.

4) Catholics have always had a hard time with sola scriptura, given their unscriptural practices and the extra biblical sources for their beliefs. The problem with not using the bible as the source of doctrine is that man-made doctrine is often times erroneous. History is replete with examples.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

---

Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.

---

I'll take a shot at this, as the answer is pretty simple.

We ask other believers and brothers in Christ to pray for us because they are 1) believers; and 2) alive. See James 5:16.

Praying to a long dead mortal is like praying to your long dead drinking buddy. It's worthless.

---

Well a whole ton of context on purgatory and many verses in revelation etc state otherwise

But at worst it's a waste of time and at best….

@mothra - if you have lost a parent or a grandparent etc, you've never prayed for them after their passing or asked them to pray for you or look out for you?

That'd be impressive to stick to one's guns if so. I did have a protestant buddy of mine tell me if someone hadn't been baptized they couldn't go to heaven. I said so what age do you baptize? He said of course when they feel called or generally around 8-12. I said God forbid your son is killed when he chases a ball into the street at the age of say 4. Where does he go?

His jaw dropped. Then I got no answer.

In the end many things we don't "know" definitively and of course so much deoends upon faith but it is interesting to see how the newer denominations reason things out vs the reasoning of the Catholic and orthodox faiths and makes for good discussion

---

No, there are no verses in Revelation or anywhere else in scripture that state otherwise. In discussions with my Catholic friends on their non-biblical practice of praying to dead relatives, they like you have referenced Revelation, and in particular 5:8 which talks about saints carrying incense, which are the prayers of man. But there are no verses in Revelation that state we should pray to the saints, or request that they take our prayers to God. It's an entirely man-made practice. And for the record, so is purgatory - made up by man. There is no mention of purgatory or anything like it in scripture.

No, I have never prayed to a dead parent, grandparent or any other relative. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I take my prayers directly to him, his father, or the Holy Spirit, although I do ask him to tell them "hi" from time to time.

---

Btw why do Protestants always talk of a "personal relationship with Jesus" like it's something they have that other Christian's don't? A phrase that came into existence in the 1900s.

How can one be a practicing Christian and not have a personal relationship with Jesus?

---

Catholicism has long held that it is through the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, that they can develop a personal relationship with Jesus. It is more a communal relationship experienced through performance based criteria. That phrase has a very different meaning for evangelicals, who don't believe any works are necessary for a personal relationship with God.

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Praying for the dead - now it may be that only Protestants don't do this as that seems to be the people most emotionally against it and most other faiths unanimously do do this.

When I've mentioned 2 Maccabees to them sometimes an non Catholic thinking themselves astute will say something like "that's not scripture".

What would you say to that example, as just one, since I shouldn't necessarily lump you in with others of faith I've discussed this with before?

---

So, Christians should pray to dead people because "other faiths" do it? Hmm. I am not sure that's a very strong argument in support of your position. Because the Muslims pray to the dead, we should as well?

As for 2 Maccabees, there is a reason that the Apocrypha are not included in most Christian bibles. I won't get into all of the reasons, but the lack of consistency with the other 66 books, and in some case completely diametric teachings, calls into question its reliability. While it does mention praying FOR people who have passed on, it doesn't mention purgatory, and that is literally the only place the idea of praying FOR the dead is mentioned in the Catholic Bible (yet another piece of evidence calling into question its reliability). It also does not say the dead can answer prayers, or that God will save them after death.

---

Why would saying other faiths be the basis. It's just a data point and Catholicism is the OriginalChristian faith anyway and of course provided the very Bible from which you ostensibly sola scripture

Ok so we're getting somewhere. You agree on praying for those that have passed? If not let me know. As that will form the basis of what comes next.

---

1) Whether another faith believes something is irrelevant to whether a practice is biblical.

AGREED

2) The original Christian faith was the Christian faith. There were no Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, despite what you may have learned in CCD. The current iteration of Catholicism began around 600 AD.

THIS IS INCORRECT. The current iteration of Catholicism began with Jesus. It's literally in the Greek word from which the word Catholic comes from. It's kinda like saying you could build the 12th story of a building without the foundation that it sits upon. Humans came along 1500-+ years later and started to try to tweak this and that which then led to 40,000 or so Christian denominations

3) Did you read what I wrote? If so, I am trying to figure out how you concluded I agree we should pray for those who passed. If someone wants to pray for some already dead person, they can certainly do so. It won't change anything, but if it makes them feel better, I have no issue with it.

4) Sounds like you agree with me there is no biblical support for praying to someone who has passed, since you have failed to cite any scripture in support of same.

Praying to or for? I believe I only said for unless you're talking about Mary or the saints. You're already aware of the biblical verses which I also cited or we could go deeper. You just believe something other than what it means. Which we could also go further. We pray for the dead all the time as that's biblical. We pray to saints and Mary. Is Mary "someone" or the mother of God? Maybe that's the misconception

Some Protestants believe Catholics believe she forgive sins. Not sure where they get that from.

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

---

Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.

---

I'll take a shot at this, as the answer is pretty simple.

We ask other believers and brothers in Christ to pray for us because they are 1) believers; and 2) alive. See James 5:16.

Praying to a long dead mortal is like praying to your long dead drinking buddy. It's worthless.

---

Well a whole ton of context on purgatory and many verses in revelation etc state otherwise

But at worst it's a waste of time and at best….

@mothra - if you have lost a parent or a grandparent etc, you've never prayed for them after their passing or asked them to pray for you or look out for you?

That'd be impressive to stick to one's guns if so. I did have a protestant buddy of mine tell me if someone hadn't been baptized they couldn't go to heaven. I said so what age do you baptize? He said of course when they feel called or generally around 8-12. I said God forbid your son is killed when he chases a ball into the street at the age of say 4. Where does he go?

His jaw dropped. Then I got no answer.

In the end many things we don't "know" definitively and of course so much deoends upon faith but it is interesting to see how the newer denominations reason things out vs the reasoning of the Catholic and orthodox faiths and makes for good discussion

---

No, there are no verses in Revelation or anywhere else in scripture that state otherwise. In discussions with my Catholic friends on their non-biblical practice of praying to dead relatives, they like you have referenced Revelation, and in particular 5:8 which talks about saints carrying incense, which are the prayers of man. But there are no verses in Revelation that state we should pray to the saints, or request that they take our prayers to God. It's an entirely man-made practice. And for the record, so is purgatory - made up by man. There is no mention of purgatory or anything like it in scripture.

No, I have never prayed to a dead parent, grandparent or any other relative. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I take my prayers directly to him, his father, or the Holy Spirit, although I do ask him to tell them "hi" from time to time.

---

Btw why do Protestants always talk of a "personal relationship with Jesus" like it's something they have that other Christian's don't? A phrase that came into existence in the 1900s.

How can one be a practicing Christian and not have a personal relationship with Jesus?

---

Catholicism has long held that it is through the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, that they can develop a personal relationship with Jesus. It is more a communal relationship experienced through performance based criteria. That phrase has a very different meaning for evangelicals, who don't believe any works are necessary for a personal relationship with God.

---

Yes I'd say the main fundamental differences which are huge in my opinion are the Eucharist, John 6:53 and the notion that no works are necessary. That would sure be nice.

Of course it all starts with faith and the works are a natural result even as it would be hard to say one truly has faith and then actual do no works. Several Bible versus speak to works as well. It's been argued for centuries when the Catholic faith then was splintered by some men into the newer iterations

I wonder what we'll find out in the end.

And of course there's always God's infinite grace and He can do anything. We would always allow for that and never deny it but one must also considered what was required of us Biblically as the measuring stick we all fall short of.

When Jesus died on the cross, why did the curtain leading to the holy of holies split from the top to the bottom?

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Praying for the dead - now it may be that only Protestants don't do this as that seems to be the people most emotionally against it and most other faiths unanimously do do this.

When I've mentioned 2 Maccabees to them sometimes an non Catholic thinking themselves astute will say something like "that's not scripture".

What would you say to that example, as just one, since I shouldn't necessarily lump you in with others of faith I've discussed this with before?

---

So, Christians should pray to dead people because "other faiths" do it? Hmm. I am not sure that's a very strong argument in support of your position. Because the Muslims pray to the dead, we should as well?

As for 2 Maccabees, there is a reason that the Apocrypha are not included in most Christian bibles. I won't get into all of the reasons, but the lack of consistency with the other 66 books, and in some case completely diametric teachings, calls into question its reliability. While it does mention praying FOR people who have passed on, it doesn't mention purgatory, and that is literally the only place the idea of praying FOR the dead is mentioned in the Catholic Bible (yet another piece of evidence calling into question its reliability). It also does not say the dead can answer prayers, or that God will save them after death.

---

Why would saying other faiths be the basis. It's just a data point and Catholicism is the OriginalChristian faith anyway and of course provided the very Bible from which you ostensibly sola scripture

Ok so we're getting somewhere. You agree on praying for those that have passed? If not let me know. As that will form the basis of what comes next.

---

1) Whether another faith believes something is irrelevant to whether a practice is biblical.

AGREED

2) The original Christian faith was the Christian faith. There were no Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, despite what you may have learned in CCD. The current iteration of Catholicism began around 600 AD.

THIS IS INCORRECT. The current iteration of Catholicism began with Jesus. It's literally in the Greek word from which the word Catholic comes from. It's kinda like saying you could build the 12th story of a building without the foundation that it sits upon. Humans came along 1500-+ years later and started to try to tweak this and that which then led to 40,000 or so Christian denominations

3) Did you read what I wrote? If so, I am trying to figure out how you concluded I agree we should pray for those who passed. If someone wants to pray for some already dead person, they can certainly do so. It won't change anything, but if it makes them feel better, I have no issue with it.

4) Sounds like you agree with me there is no biblical support for praying to someone who has passed, since you have failed to cite any scripture in support of same.

Praying to or for? I believe I only said for unless you're talking about Mary or the saints. You're already aware of the biblical verses which I also cited or we could go deeper. You just believe something other than what it means. Which we could also go further. We pray for the dead all the time as that's biblical. We pray to saints and Mary. Is Mary "someone" or the mother of God? Maybe that's the misconception

Some Protestants believe Catholics believe she forgive sins. Not sure where they get that from.

---

---

2) By current iteration of the Catholic faith, I mean the practices which make up Roman Catholicism. And no, those did not originate with Jesus. There is plenty of Catholic doctrine that Christ made no mention of, including several of the sacraments, which were developed in some instances hundreds of years after his death. Much of the current Catholic doctrine and practices began with Pope Gregory in around 600 AD. Christ himself made no mention of the Catholic church. Nor did his disciples. There was merely "the Church," which was the body of believers that followed Jesus.

4) I thought you argued that you would pray to long dead relatives and ask them to take your prayers to God. Regardless, I am unaware of any scripture which speak to praying to Mary or the Saints. We've discussed one verse in Revelation that says the Saints take incense to the Lord, which are the prayers of man, if that is what you are referencing, but that verse in no way suggests, much less states, that we should pray to Mary or the Saints. There are no verses whatsoever in scripture which specifically condone that practice.

There's nothing biblical about praying for the dead, IMO. Maccabees isn't a reliable source of authority on that practice, for the reasons previously discussed.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

---

Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.

---

I'll take a shot at this, as the answer is pretty simple.

We ask other believers and brothers in Christ to pray for us because they are 1) believers; and 2) alive. See James 5:16.

Praying to a long dead mortal is like praying to your long dead drinking buddy. It's worthless.

---

Well a whole ton of context on purgatory and many verses in revelation etc state otherwise

But at worst it's a waste of time and at best….

@mothra - if you have lost a parent or a grandparent etc, you've never prayed for them after their passing or asked them to pray for you or look out for you?

That'd be impressive to stick to one's guns if so. I did have a protestant buddy of mine tell me if someone hadn't been baptized they couldn't go to heaven. I said so what age do you baptize? He said of course when they feel called or generally around 8-12. I said God forbid your son is killed when he chases a ball into the street at the age of say 4. Where does he go?

His jaw dropped. Then I got no answer.

In the end many things we don't "know" definitively and of course so much deoends upon faith but it is interesting to see how the newer denominations reason things out vs the reasoning of the Catholic and orthodox faiths and makes for good discussion

---

No, there are no verses in Revelation or anywhere else in scripture that state otherwise. In discussions with my Catholic friends on their non-biblical practice of praying to dead relatives, they like you have referenced Revelation, and in particular 5:8 which talks about saints carrying incense, which are the prayers of man. But there are no verses in Revelation that state we should pray to the saints, or request that they take our prayers to God. It's an entirely man-made practice. And for the record, so is purgatory - made up by man. There is no mention of purgatory or anything like it in scripture.

No, I have never prayed to a dead parent, grandparent or any other relative. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I take my prayers directly to him, his father, or the Holy Spirit, although I do ask him to tell them "hi" from time to time.

---

Btw why do Protestants always talk of a "personal relationship with Jesus" like it's something they have that other Christian's don't? A phrase that came into existence in the 1900s.

How can one be a practicing Christian and not have a personal relationship with Jesus?

---

Catholicism has long held that it is through the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, that they can develop a personal relationship with Jesus. It is more a communal relationship experienced through performance based criteria. That phrase has a very different meaning for evangelicals, who don't believe any works are necessary for a personal relationship with God.

---

Yes I'd say the main fundamental differences which are huge in my opinion are the Eucharist, John 6:53 and the notion that no works are necessary. That would sure be nice.

---

I've got good news for you. Scripture is crystal clear that works are not required for salvation. In fact, our works are like filthy rags to God. Isaiah 64:6

A good summary of the Gospel can be found in Ephesians 2:8-9, which provides, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast". There are countless others, but this is the best summation of the Gospel. No Eucharist, no baptism, no sacraments, nothing. For as Paul said, if those things were required, it would not be by grace that man is saved.

As you have alluded to in your post, a Christian is known by his works, which are an outcropping of our faith in Christ, and evidence of our salvation. But Christ himself was clear that no work can save man. See John 3:16-18.

Indeed, the is the fundamental difference between Catholicism and many other protestant denominations. It's as if the Catholics are completely ignoring Paul, Peter, and the other NT's writers' words on this subject. The NT writers couldn't have been more clear on this subject.

BTW, the thief on the cross throws a monkey wrench in the whole works requirement.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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When Jesus died on the cross, why did the curtain leading to the holy of holies split from the top to the bottom?

---

Indeed.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

---

Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.

---

I'll take a shot at this, as the answer is pretty simple.

We ask other believers and brothers in Christ to pray for us because they are 1) believers; and 2) alive. See James 5:16.

Praying to a long dead mortal is like praying to your long dead drinking buddy. It's worthless.

---

Well a whole ton of context on purgatory and many verses in revelation etc state otherwise

But at worst it's a waste of time and at best….

@mothra - if you have lost a parent or a grandparent etc, you've never prayed for them after their passing or asked them to pray for you or look out for you?

That'd be impressive to stick to one's guns if so. I did have a protestant buddy of mine tell me if someone hadn't been baptized they couldn't go to heaven. I said so what age do you baptize? He said of course when they feel called or generally around 8-12. I said God forbid your son is killed when he chases a ball into the street at the age of say 4. Where does he go?

His jaw dropped. Then I got no answer.

In the end many things we don't "know" definitively and of course so much deoends upon faith but it is interesting to see how the newer denominations reason things out vs the reasoning of the Catholic and orthodox faiths and makes for good discussion

---

No, there are no verses in Revelation or anywhere else in scripture that state otherwise. In discussions with my Catholic friends on their non-biblical practice of praying to dead relatives, they like you have referenced Revelation, and in particular 5:8 which talks about saints carrying incense, which are the prayers of man. But there are no verses in Revelation that state we should pray to the saints, or request that they take our prayers to God. It's an entirely man-made practice. And for the record, so is purgatory - made up by man. There is no mention of purgatory or anything like it in scripture.

No, I have never prayed to a dead parent, grandparent or any other relative. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I take my prayers directly to him, his father, or the Holy Spirit, although I do ask him to tell them "hi" from time to time.

---

Btw why do Protestants always talk of a "personal relationship with Jesus" like it's something they have that other Christian's don't? A phrase that came into existence in the 1900s.

How can one be a practicing Christian and not have a personal relationship with Jesus?

---

regarding personal relationship with Christ. Give it a listen. It really good.

You should ask Phillip that question

Mothra said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Mothra said:

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Waco1947 said:

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In your estimation I am avoiding the question.
I stated my premises with regards to Jesus as the Son of God. That's my answer and it is not binary.

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It's not just his estimation, but everyone's. Sorry, but there isn't a reasonable person on this board who could read your non-answer and claim you're not avoiding the question. That is exactly what you're doing and what you always do. You're being intellectually dishonest to suggest you've answered it.

The question of whether Jesus is God or not requires a simple yes or no. He either is he who says he is, or he isn't. Sure, we can debate what you believe a "God" is, but the answer to this question shouldn't be difficult for any Christian.

And the fact you cannot provide a straight answer to what should be a simple question for any person who calls themselves "Christian" speaks volumes.

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Everyone does not make them right. A historical, contextual and canonical (how the canon came to be) approach to the Bible is my argument. no one has dealt with those Biblical scholarship. I would look forward to response about the historical, contextual and canonical approach to scripture. I consider a "harmonizing" view of Scripture in which God dictates scripture from Generations to Revolutions (joke) to be wrong. Maybe I sdib't mean wrong but lacking in rigorous scholarship

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The fact you have not answered a simple yes or no question makes it right. That is an objective reality.

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Not all answers are binary

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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In your estimation I am avoiding the question.
I stated my premises with regards to Jesus as the Son of God. That's my answer and it is not binary.

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like I said, cop out

Why Immanuel?

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Not till you deal with my premises. Which one is wrong?
Question: Who is the Jesus of the synoptic gospels and kerygma of the early church?
1) Premise: Jesus is historical
2) Premise: what we have is fragments of his words were redacted by the Synoptic gospel writers to highlight their theology
3) Premise : the gospels are organic to the church (or churches) to which they were writing.
4) Premise: I posit a historical and contextual understanding of gospels. German Biblical theologians called it "Sitz im Leben", that is, the church's historical situation and that context is hugely formative to the gospels

Conclusion: The answer to your question is not binary but complex.
Now your job is to refute my premises

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dnkose me You duck out of dialogue when challenged. I posted in giod faith - you not so much. You are simply dismissive which sad for a thinking Christian like your self.

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So, here is my answer again -- which premise is wrong that would call into question my Conclusion

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

---

Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.

---

I'll take a shot at this, as the answer is pretty simple.

We ask other believers and brothers in Christ to pray for us because they are 1) believers; and 2) alive. See James 5:16.

Praying to a long dead mortal is like praying to your long dead drinking buddy. It's worthless.

---

Well a whole ton of context on purgatory and many verses in revelation etc state otherwise

But at worst it's a waste of time and at best….

@mothra - if you have lost a parent or a grandparent etc, you've never prayed for them after their passing or asked them to pray for you or look out for you?

That'd be impressive to stick to one's guns if so. I did have a protestant buddy of mine tell me if someone hadn't been baptized they couldn't go to heaven. I said so what age do you baptize? He said of course when they feel called or generally around 8-12. I said God forbid your son is killed when he chases a ball into the street at the age of say 4. Where does he go?

His jaw dropped. Then I got no answer.

In the end many things we don't "know" definitively and of course so much deoends upon faith but it is interesting to see how the newer denominations reason things out vs the reasoning of the Catholic and orthodox faiths and makes for good discussion

---

No, there are no verses in Revelation or anywhere else in scripture that state otherwise. In discussions with my Catholic friends on their non-biblical practice of praying to dead relatives, they like you have referenced Revelation, and in particular 5:8 which talks about saints carrying incense, which are the prayers of man. But there are no verses in Revelation that state we should pray to the saints, or request that they take our prayers to God. It's an entirely man-made practice. And for the record, so is purgatory - made up by man. There is no mention of purgatory or anything like it in scripture.

No, I have never prayed to a dead parent, grandparent or any other relative. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I take my prayers directly to him, his father, or the Holy Spirit, although I do ask him to tell them "hi" from time to time.

---

Btw why do Protestants always talk of a "personal relationship with Jesus" like it's something they have that other Christian's don't? A phrase that came into existence in the 1900s.

How can one be a practicing Christian and not have a personal relationship with Jesus?

---

Catholicism has long held that it is through the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, that they can develop a personal relationship with Jesus. It is more a communal relationship experienced through performance based criteria. That phrase has a very different meaning for evangelicals, who don't believe any works are necessary for a personal relationship with God.

---

Yes I'd say the main fundamental differences which are huge in my opinion are the Eucharist, John 6:53 and the notion that no works are necessary. That would sure be nice.

---

BTW, the thief on the cross throws a monkey wrench in the whole works requirement.

---

He mentioned John 6:53: "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

If Catholics/Orthodox take this literally, then they'd have to explain how the thief on the cross was saved. He obviously could not have taken part in the Last Supper. Did a piece of Jesus' flesh and a drop of his blood fly into the thief's mouth while they were hanging on the cross?

Not to mention that the literal interpretation of that verse relegates salvation entirely to a mere act of physically eating and drinking something. If one truly believes that, then one doesn't understand the Gospel.

Consider these two situations:

1) A person in China hears the gospel, and believes, and puts their faith in Jesus for their salvation. But because Christians are persecuted so heavily there, there is no church. This person is the only believer in their village. There are no bibles available. No pastors/priests to offer communion or water baptism. Soon after, this person dies from a Chinese lab super virus.

2) A person somewhere in Africa hears the gospel, and believes, and puts their faith in Jesus for their salvation. There is a small group of Christians there that worship together. Their worship involves music, singing, and dancing in customary tribal style, so it looks nothing like the first century Christians. But they direct their worship towards Jesus with a heart of true joy and thankfulness. There is a severe drought there, so water is extremely scarce. Hence, this person never got water baptized. Soon after, this person dies from a Fauci-engineered super Ebola virus.

Folks, if you don't believe that these two people were part of Jesus' Church, his body of believers, and thus fellow brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, and that they were saved and are now in heaven, then you didn't understand a thing that Jesus and his apostles said and did, and you just don't understand the Gospel. You've actually become the Pharisees, believing that only by following a set of rules and your man-made traditions can one be right with God; thus, like the Pharisees, you've become the enemies of Jesus' Gospel.

Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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In your estimation I am avoiding the question.
I stated my premises with regards to Jesus as the Son of God. That's my answer and it is not binary.

---

like I said, cop out

Why Immanuel?

---

Not till you deal with my premises. Which one is wrong?
Question: Who is the Jesus of the synoptic gospels and kerygma of the early church?
1) Premise: Jesus is historical
2) Premise: what we have is fragments of his words were redacted by the Synoptic gospel writers to highlight their theology
3) Premise : the gospels are organic to the church (or churches) to which they were writing.
4) Premise: I posit a historical and contextual understanding of gospels. German Biblical theologians called it "Sitz im Leben", that is, the church's historical situation and that context is hugely formative to the gospels

Conclusion: The answer to your question is not binary but complex.
Now your job is to refute my premises

---

1. correct.

2. What evidence do you have to support the claim that the Gospel writers redacted Jesus' words to support their theology? The better view is that at least one and likely two of the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses- please refer to Jesus and the Eyewitnesses by Richard Bauckham.

3. The gospels were circulated among the early churches. They knew which ones were authentic and rejected forgeries such as the so-called "Gospel of Thomas."

4. I'm not sure to which German theologians you are referring. F.C. Baur and the Tubingen School of Theology, for example, are highly unreliable and essentially useless sources of information.

The term "sitz in leben" means that one has to study the context to understand Scripture, which is pretty self-evident.

Waco1947 said:

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Mothra said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Mothra said:

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Waco1947 said:

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In your estimation I am avoiding the question.
I stated my premises with regards to Jesus as the Son of God. That's my answer and it is not binary.

---

It's not just his estimation, but everyone's. Sorry, but there isn't a reasonable person on this board who could read your non-answer and claim you're not avoiding the question. That is exactly what you're doing and what you always do. You're being intellectually dishonest to suggest you've answered it.

The question of whether Jesus is God or not requires a simple yes or no. He either is he who says he is, or he isn't. Sure, we can debate what you believe a "God" is, but the answer to this question shouldn't be difficult for any Christian.

And the fact you cannot provide a straight answer to what should be a simple question for any person who calls themselves "Christian" speaks volumes.

---

Everyone does not make them right. A historical, contextual and canonical (how the canon came to be) approach to the Bible is my argument. no one has dealt with those Biblical scholarship. I would look forward to response about the historical, contextual and canonical approach to scripture. I consider a "harmonizing" view of Scripture in which God dictates scripture from Generations to Revolutions (joke) to be wrong. Maybe I sdib't mean wrong but lacking in rigorous scholarship

---

The fact you have not answered a simple yes or no question makes it right. That is an objective reality.

---

Not all answers are binary

---

True, but you haven't even answered in a non-binary manner. Moreover, in this case, the question only requires a yes or no. Either Jesus is God or he's not.

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

In your estimation I am avoiding the question.
I stated my premises with regards to Jesus as the Son of God. That's my answer and it is not binary.

---

like I said, cop out

Why Immanuel?

---

Not till you deal with my premises. Which one is wrong?
Question: Who is the Jesus of the synoptic gospels and kerygma of the early church?
1) Premise: Jesus is historical
2) Premise: what we have is fragments of his words were redacted by the Synoptic gospel writers to highlight their theology
3) Premise : the gospels are organic to the church (or churches) to which they were writing.
4) Premise: I posit a historical and contextual understanding of gospels. German Biblical theologians called it "Sitz im Leben", that is, the church's historical situation and that context is hugely formative to the gospels

Conclusion: The answer to your question is not binary but complex.
Now your job is to refute my premises

---

dnkose me You duck out of dialogue when challenged. I posted in giod faith - you not so much. You are simply dismissive which sad for a thinking Christian like your self.

---

So, here is my answer again -- which premise is wrong that would call into question my Conclusion

---

So you answered his question...with a question.

Surely you must know how incredibly frustrating you are to converse with. I think you just like to gaslight.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

---

Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.

---

I'll take a shot at this, as the answer is pretty simple.

We ask other believers and brothers in Christ to pray for us because they are 1) believers; and 2) alive. See James 5:16.

Praying to a long dead mortal is like praying to your long dead drinking buddy. It's worthless.

---

Well a whole ton of context on purgatory and many verses in revelation etc state otherwise

But at worst it's a waste of time and at best….

@mothra - if you have lost a parent or a grandparent etc, you've never prayed for them after their passing or asked them to pray for you or look out for you?

That'd be impressive to stick to one's guns if so. I did have a protestant buddy of mine tell me if someone hadn't been baptized they couldn't go to heaven. I said so what age do you baptize? He said of course when they feel called or generally around 8-12. I said God forbid your son is killed when he chases a ball into the street at the age of say 4. Where does he go?

His jaw dropped. Then I got no answer.

In the end many things we don't "know" definitively and of course so much deoends upon faith but it is interesting to see how the newer denominations reason things out vs the reasoning of the Catholic and orthodox faiths and makes for good discussion

---

No, there are no verses in Revelation or anywhere else in scripture that state otherwise. In discussions with my Catholic friends on their non-biblical practice of praying to dead relatives, they like you have referenced Revelation, and in particular 5:8 which talks about saints carrying incense, which are the prayers of man. But there are no verses in Revelation that state we should pray to the saints, or request that they take our prayers to God. It's an entirely man-made practice. And for the record, so is purgatory - made up by man. There is no mention of purgatory or anything like it in scripture.

No, I have never prayed to a dead parent, grandparent or any other relative. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I take my prayers directly to him, his father, or the Holy Spirit, although I do ask him to tell them "hi" from time to time.

---

Btw why do Protestants always talk of a "personal relationship with Jesus" like it's something they have that other Christian's don't? A phrase that came into existence in the 1900s.

How can one be a practicing Christian and not have a personal relationship with Jesus?

---

Catholicism has long held that it is through the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, that they can develop a personal relationship with Jesus. It is more a communal relationship experienced through performance based criteria. That phrase has a very different meaning for evangelicals, who don't believe any works are necessary for a personal relationship with God.

---

Yes I'd say the main fundamental differences which are huge in my opinion are the Eucharist, John 6:53 and the notion that no works are necessary. That would sure be nice.

---

BTW, the thief on the cross throws a monkey wrench in the whole works requirement.

---

He mentioned John 6:53: "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

If Catholics/Orthodox take this literally, then they'd have to explain how the thief on the cross was saved. He obviously could not have taken part in the Last Supper. Did a piece of Jesus' flesh and a drop of his blood fly into the thief's mouth while they were hanging on the cross?

Not to mention that the literal interpretation of that verse relegates salvation entirely to a mere act of physically eating and drinking something. If one truly believes that, then one doesn't understand the Gospel.

---

I mentioned that in my post above. The explanation I always get from Catholics when they have to address the thief on the cross is, "God made an exception."

The idea that you can have a repentant and changed heart, and that God is going to condemn you to Hell because you failed to eat bread and drink wine, or receive a sprinkling of water on your head, is about as ridiculous and non-biblical a position as there is.

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

In your estimation I am avoiding the question.
I stated my premises with regards to Jesus as the Son of God. That's my answer and it is not binary.

---

like I said, cop out

Why Immanuel?

---

Not till you deal with my premises. Which one is wrong?
Question: Who is the Jesus of the synoptic gospels and kerygma of the early church?
1) Premise: Jesus is historical
2) Premise: what we have is fragments of his words were redacted by the Synoptic gospel writers to highlight their theology
3) Premise : the gospels are organic to the church (or churches) to which they were writing.
4) Premise: I posit a historical and contextual understanding of gospels. German Biblical theologians called it "Sitz im Leben", that is, the church's historical situation and that context is hugely formative to the gospels

Conclusion: The answer to your question is not binary but complex.
Now your job is to refute my premises

---

dnkose me You duck out of dialogue when challenged. I posted in giod faith - you not so much. You are simply dismissive which sad for a thinking Christian like your self.

---

So, here is my answer again -- which premise is wrong that would call into question my Conclusion

---

You didn't post in good faith. You tried to reshape the conversation to your liking. Therefore your got the Greek translation of "bite me"

Mothra said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

---

Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.

---

I'll take a shot at this, as the answer is pretty simple.

We ask other believers and brothers in Christ to pray for us because they are 1) believers; and 2) alive. See James 5:16.

Praying to a long dead mortal is like praying to your long dead drinking buddy. It's worthless.

---

Well a whole ton of context on purgatory and many verses in revelation etc state otherwise

But at worst it's a waste of time and at best….

@mothra - if you have lost a parent or a grandparent etc, you've never prayed for them after their passing or asked them to pray for you or look out for you?

That'd be impressive to stick to one's guns if so. I did have a protestant buddy of mine tell me if someone hadn't been baptized they couldn't go to heaven. I said so what age do you baptize? He said of course when they feel called or generally around 8-12. I said God forbid your son is killed when he chases a ball into the street at the age of say 4. Where does he go?

His jaw dropped. Then I got no answer.

In the end many things we don't "know" definitively and of course so much deoends upon faith but it is interesting to see how the newer denominations reason things out vs the reasoning of the Catholic and orthodox faiths and makes for good discussion

---

No, there are no verses in Revelation or anywhere else in scripture that state otherwise. In discussions with my Catholic friends on their non-biblical practice of praying to dead relatives, they like you have referenced Revelation, and in particular 5:8 which talks about saints carrying incense, which are the prayers of man. But there are no verses in Revelation that state we should pray to the saints, or request that they take our prayers to God. It's an entirely man-made practice. And for the record, so is purgatory - made up by man. There is no mention of purgatory or anything like it in scripture.

No, I have never prayed to a dead parent, grandparent or any other relative. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I take my prayers directly to him, his father, or the Holy Spirit, although I do ask him to tell them "hi" from time to time.

---

Btw why do Protestants always talk of a "personal relationship with Jesus" like it's something they have that other Christian's don't? A phrase that came into existence in the 1900s.

How can one be a practicing Christian and not have a personal relationship with Jesus?

---

Catholicism has long held that it is through the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, that they can develop a personal relationship with Jesus. It is more a communal relationship experienced through performance based criteria. That phrase has a very different meaning for evangelicals, who don't believe any works are necessary for a personal relationship with God.

---

Yes I'd say the main fundamental differences which are huge in my opinion are the Eucharist, John 6:53 and the notion that no works are necessary. That would sure be nice.

---

BTW, the thief on the cross throws a monkey wrench in the whole works requirement.

---

He mentioned John 6:53: "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

If Catholics/Orthodox take this literally, then they'd have to explain how the thief on the cross was saved. He obviously could not have taken part in the Last Supper. Did a piece of Jesus' flesh and a drop of his blood fly into the thief's mouth while they were hanging on the cross?

Not to mention that the literal interpretation of that verse relegates salvation entirely to a mere act of physically eating and drinking something. If one truly believes that, then one doesn't understand the Gospel.

---

I mentioned that in my post above. The explanation I always get from Catholics when they have to address the thief on the cross is, "God made an exception."

The idea that you can have a repentant and changed heart, and that God is going to condemn you to Hell because you failed to eat bread and drink wine, or receive a sprinkling of water on your head, is about as ridiculous and non-biblical a position as there is.

---

And the other part of it is that the very next verse says, "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life". So if the verse before that is to be taken literally, then this one has to be also. Which would mean that ALL one has to do to be saved is eat some bread and drink some wine. You don't even have to have any belief, repentance, or faith at all. Even a deeply avowed Satanist can be saved if you just give them some of the consecrated bread to eat. And that's just as ridiculous and non-biblical, if not worse. Catholicism and Orthodox's literal interpretation of John chapter 6 simply doesn't hold water.

Something about wheat and tares jumps off the page here.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

---

Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.

---

I'll take a shot at this, as the answer is pretty simple.

We ask other believers and brothers in Christ to pray for us because they are 1) believers; and 2) alive. See James 5:16.

Praying to a long dead mortal is like praying to your long dead drinking buddy. It's worthless.

---

Well a whole ton of context on purgatory and many verses in revelation etc state otherwise

But at worst it's a waste of time and at best….

@mothra - if you have lost a parent or a grandparent etc, you've never prayed for them after their passing or asked them to pray for you or look out for you?

That'd be impressive to stick to one's guns if so. I did have a protestant buddy of mine tell me if someone hadn't been baptized they couldn't go to heaven. I said so what age do you baptize? He said of course when they feel called or generally around 8-12. I said God forbid your son is killed when he chases a ball into the street at the age of say 4. Where does he go?

His jaw dropped. Then I got no answer.

In the end many things we don't "know" definitively and of course so much deoends upon faith but it is interesting to see how the newer denominations reason things out vs the reasoning of the Catholic and orthodox faiths and makes for good discussion

---

No, there are no verses in Revelation or anywhere else in scripture that state otherwise. In discussions with my Catholic friends on their non-biblical practice of praying to dead relatives, they like you have referenced Revelation, and in particular 5:8 which talks about saints carrying incense, which are the prayers of man. But there are no verses in Revelation that state we should pray to the saints, or request that they take our prayers to God. It's an entirely man-made practice. And for the record, so is purgatory - made up by man. There is no mention of purgatory or anything like it in scripture.

No, I have never prayed to a dead parent, grandparent or any other relative. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I take my prayers directly to him, his father, or the Holy Spirit, although I do ask him to tell them "hi" from time to time.

---

Btw why do Protestants always talk of a "personal relationship with Jesus" like it's something they have that other Christian's don't? A phrase that came into existence in the 1900s.

How can one be a practicing Christian and not have a personal relationship with Jesus?

---

Catholicism has long held that it is through the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, that they can develop a personal relationship with Jesus. It is more a communal relationship experienced through performance based criteria. That phrase has a very different meaning for evangelicals, who don't believe any works are necessary for a personal relationship with God.

---

Yes I'd say the main fundamental differences which are huge in my opinion are the Eucharist, John 6:53 and the notion that no works are necessary. That would sure be nice.

---

I've got good news for you. Scripture is crystal clear that works are not required for salvation. In fact, our works are like filthy rags to God. Isaiah 64:6

A good summary of the Gospel can be found in Ephesians 2:8-9, which provides, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast". There are countless others, but this is the best summation of the Gospel. No Eucharist, no baptism, no sacraments, nothing. For as Paul said, if those things were required, it would not be by grace that man is saved.

As you have alluded to in your post, a Christian is known by his works, which are an outcropping of our faith in Christ, and evidence of our salvation. But Christ himself was clear that no work can save man. See John 3:16-18.

Indeed, the is the fundamental difference between Catholicism and many other protestant denominations. It's as if the Catholics are completely ignoring Paul, Peter, and the other NT's writers' words on this subject. The NT writers couldn't have been more clear on this subject.

BTW, the thief on the cross throws a monkey wrench in the whole works requirement.

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I would really recommend studying this very very closely. Of course God can do anything but this isn't quite what is stayed and we've discussed several verses explicitly stating it. Probably for you it is not an issue but I fear for the people that lean in this. Maybe every Catholic going back to Christ is wrong but I doubt it especially given what is written to us.

Galatians 2 and Romans 6 speak well to this. It's also important to note 1) we can't just earn our way into Heaven and 2) when reading the mention of "works" to clarify when the Apostles are speaking of Mosaic law vs doing good works

John 10:9-16 starts, "I am the door". Is "the door" literal. What are we to do with this verse?

What are we to do with "living water" verses?

Was Christ a carpenter or a shepherd? What do we do with verses saying "l am the good shepherd "?

On all of these, how are we to interpret the verses both before and after these?