Mothra said:Thanks for the clarification. Regarding belief, as I told another poster on this very thread, I believe Christ's use of the term "belief" in John 3:16-18 is synonymous with putting one's "faith" in Christ. When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) and to save him.D. C. Bear said:Mothra said:What actions do you feel are necessary to earn salvation?D. C. Bear said:Mothra said:As a Calvinist, not sure I can agree. It's not a free gift if it requires some action on our part, IMO.D. C. Bear said:Mothra said:Great verses, though I am not sure how they answer the questions to Sam.D. C. Bear said:Mothra said:Thanks. Can you cite some verses that support the idea that "our cooperation" is required? Anything to support the position that salvation is not a "free gift," as Paul says, but requires a number of acts on our part? Anything that supports the position that Mass attendance, baptism, and participating in the Eucharist are prerequisites to salvation?Sam Lowry said:This is the main disagreement that makes the argument more than semantic. Catholics believe that when we become Christians we are justified in the sense of being forgiven or reconciled. Then throughout our lives we are justified in the sense of being made more just or increasing in righteousness. So we are not merely deemed righteous; we're actually made so. We could achieve none of this on our own without the supernatural grace of God. That's why Paul says we aren't justified by works of the law. But it does require our cooperation. Like the runner competing for a prize of great value, we can't purchase or earn it for ourselves, but we still have to run. I would rather worry about running--especially since we agree that it matters--than worry that I never received grace or that my faith is a false appearance predestining me to worse punishment.Mothra said:I believe that once a person is a repentant believer in Christ, their salvation is secure and cannot be lost. I think 1 John 1:8, John 10:27-28, and Romans 8:1 are evidence of eternal security. That said, I think sometimes it takes years to actually determine whether someone is saved. I think Christ made clear in his parables that those who fall away from the faith were likely never Christians to begin with, like the seed planted in shallow soil. In short, how one "finishes the race" matters.Fre3dombear said:Mothra said:You spewed out a lot, so I am going to try and number your points to keep order. This should make it easier.Fre3dombear said:Mothra said:It appears we are going off on tangents again. I never said "faith alone," and quite frankly, how you define that phrase is probably quite different than how I would. I did say we are saved by grace, and not by works, a position you clearly dispute, as you believe one attains salvation by both works as well as faith, as you stated above.Fre3dombear said:Mothra said:This appears to be nothing more than a stream of conscience rant that doesn't address the issues raised. It either appears you are unserious about this discussion, or you are unable to respond, so I am not sure how productive it will be to continue to engage with you. However, I will address the points raised, though I am not sure further discussion is going to be productive.Fre3dombear said:Mothra said:
You said: "Easy. Would you not agree someone that has never heard the name Jesus could be by our side in Heaven? I believe God to be all Powerful and capable of doing whatever he chooses. I know is he is not a liar."
When I asked, do you have evidence, I was hoping for a little bit more than a hypothetical. By evidence, I meant something in scripture, or something else you believe to be authoritative or canon. A hypothetical is not evidence, nor are my personal thoughts or yours.
While not relevant to this discussion, I will answer your question: Yes, I do believe that someone who had never heard the name of Jesus can be saved. However, the hypothetical you posed asks the wrong question. The more pertinent question is, can someone who has never known Jesus be saved. And the answer to that question, definitively, is no.
There are a number of examples of missionaries who have encountered tribes that knew Jesus, and knew the gospel and what he did for them on the cross, but never knew his name. I recall listening to a missionary to Africa years ago, who described witnessing to an African village that knew Christ, but didn't know his name was Jesus. When he told them, they were thankful that he had finally named their God.
There are other examples of people who have encountered and come to know Christ in dreams. This is especially prevalent right now in the Middle East, and especially Iran.
But again, all of this is irrelevant to the question I posed. Do you have some example in scripture where God made an exception to the rule that we are saved by grace, not by works?
That's some genuine gobbldygook there. "Known" Jesus but never known him / heard his name. Mmmk.
So the Indians of Mexico and south that were slaughtering themselves by the thousands until the apparition of Our Guadalupe which ended that in a matter of years knew Jesus but didn't "know know" Jesus? I think you got that off the View.
Regarding the other point do I just need to post a verse that articulates that God is all powerful? Didn't realizing we wanted to get that sophomoric with the discussion.
Here's one of many which will suffice;
"Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)
Now maybe you'll spin some yarn where anything doesn't mean "anything" but I'd bet my soul that God could do anything he wanted, make any exception he wanted (maybe we'd think it's an exception but it wouldn't be in hisninfijite wisdom)( but yet again by my doctrine and teachings I'm not willing to try to count in that. If only it were all so easy
It's also, i suspect, why Jesus says:
"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)
Now that's a whole nuther topic we could all entertain about how many / what percentage of souls make it to have. Jesus offers his opinion, in the red text even.
But yet again you're even chamging the question which is odd.
I've already posted many verses that speak to grace and works and even the definition of works which a simple reader of the text can conflate with works vs "words"
Are you asking me to post them again for you? You've already read them and argued about it
And you seem to be asking me to answer a question that is contrary to what I've clearly articulated many times. We are not saved by grace alone.
Now that that is settled,
Show me a verse that says we are saved by "faith alone"
<b>this seems to be where your team goes to. Sigh. You're feeling this way because suddenly you're talking about eansubstantiation and then 2 judgements etc etc. I even have a post stating that the topic is gatito and works vs "faith alone".
Don't know how much simpler I can make it for y'all. But I also expect is this is to be a discourse you can ask questions and I'll answer and I can ask questions but you will also answer (I have several that have gone unanswered unless I missed them) </b>
1) You haven't posted a single verse that shows works are necessary for salvation. Not one. If you are going to post the same verses again, no need. They don't say what you claim they do, as previously pointed out.
<b> I had already posted several and you keep saying I've posted none. That's either a cheeky way of saying you disagree, you're not seeing them or you're just being silly. . I guess you're not reading them. I then put all of them in a single post. There were so many I may have miscounted but I noted there were 18</b>
2) My argument has been consistent throughout. The bible is clear that is it by grace we have been saved, and not by works. This, once again, is the consistent message of the Gospel.
<b>it is true we are saved by grace. I believe you understand Catholics also believe that, but unfortunately the expectations go beyond that. Again, see my 18 verses in my super post for your convenience </b>
3) Per your request, below are a couple of dozen or so verses that speak to the topic you dispute (grace alone, not works):
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
<b>grace is given sure. Where is "faith alone"? Just because it's not the "result of works" doesn't mean works aren't required. Grace exists whether we exist or not. Correlation causality fallacy here in your logic </b>
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.
<b>agreed. His grace didn't exist because we did a work. It existed already. It is actually even a work to ACCEPT his grace. It doesn't just hit us. There are things expected is us. See my 18 passages </b>
Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
<b>explained clearly in the super post for he's speaking of the mosaic law to Jewish Christian's and their, like your, confusion. The gentiles didn't need to do Shabbat and countless other of the 613 mosaic law "works" to be saved by Jesus. Not revelan to this discussion. Or just your misunderstanding </b>
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. ...
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
<b>addressed in the 18 super post</B>
Romans 5:1-2
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>
Romans 3:28
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
<b>again with the mosaic 613 law "works" topic not related to the works we are discussing here on this topic </B>
Romans 3:24
And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people
</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected. The expectations of not only not sinking but doing additional works for salvation are cited in the super post</b>
2 Timothy 1:9 E
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>
Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith
</b> i cite 18 passages where more is expected</b>
Responded in bold but doesn't appear to be holding and each is addressed that "faith alone" is stated nowhere unless maybe as I type this you've gone and found it.
QUESTION - are you saying you don't believe we are saved by "faith alone"? I want to make sure this question doesn't go unresponded to. It should be a simple yes or no on "faith alone"
Catholics of course believe we are saved by God's grace. We are again focusing on the works portion of the debate which I understand you to say is not required despite my 18 passages and yet not a single verse to my knowledge from you yet saying "faith alone"
That being the case, perhaps it would be a little more productive for you to explain why you believe the NT writers got it so wrong. Each of the verses I cited state that salvation is a result of grace, and not works: 1) "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works," 2) "and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified," 3) "one is justified by faith apart from works of the law," 4) but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Thus, my question is, why do you believe each of these verses is error? How did Paul get it so wrong in your mind? I mean, he is clearly saying in each of these verses that our salvation is not a result of works, but the free gift of grace. How is it that God allowed him to lie like that to Christians?
To be clear, and I've said this now at least 4 times, #2 and #3 are irrelevant to this topic and I guess a deflection by you. Hes clearly speaking of works of the mosaic law. You must understand the context in which he's speaking. No Catholic is saying if you're not circumcised and or if you touch an unclean person or eat pork you're going to hell.
Who said He lied to Christians? Not sure what the tangent is. I guess you're the first Protestant I've ever met that doesn't believe faith alone but only grace alone so that's fine. We agree faith alone doesn't exist in the Bible. Score 1 for the Christians! (We are misty in the same team after all)
So you can stop with the "you're going on a tangent" topic (i think, as I am very much laser focused on this one topic. You want to change the name of it and call it "grace alone and not works" when I clearly stated in a stand-alone post "the topic is faith alone versus faith and works" - see how this gets confusing???)
I'll also note that in none of the verses you cited here in this post does it mention repentance. Are you suggesting you don't need to repent (a verb ergo a work / action) to achieve salvation? (Or do you disregard Luke 13:3 whereby Jesus states "no I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"
Will you say to Jesus I don't have to repent because I have your grace?
So I'll ask you the same you ask me - how do you simply cast aside all the works clearly stated in the Bible required to achieve salvation? Do you just pick and choose?
The Catholic teachings going back to the early church fathers is the least common denominator and chooses the intersection.
Yours picks some and ignores the others.
You could even consider Jesus saying "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1. Straight from the man himself speaking of things that must be done and in what way to do them "OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN"
You do recognize right that the apostles were mostly talking to Jews (and Gentiles) and you couldn't of
Course be Jewish by just feeling "I believe in God". In fact you had 613 laws to follow. It wouldn't even seem logical that this new Christianity is now so easy you don't have to do anything. Yes you could never do so much that you impress God but you are required to do things. Follow the commandments. All the things I listed in "The 18". Can you imagine a Jew convert to Christ thinking "sweet, I've been baptized (maybe), said I believe Jesus is the messiah, know it in my heart and now I'm done. Let's just live life how I want and head on up to Heaven ". That doesn't even make any sense.
You also realize it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to skip church on Sunday with few exceptions right?
Catholics of course believe we are saved by grace, must have faith and are judged by our works as is stated in at least 18 verses explicitly that I noted.
Some of your examples I've already debunked with respect to your newly named topic of "grace alone vs grace (or faith?) plus works) when Paul is talking about the mosaic "works" which is clearly the context.
Maybe you dispute that, so if you do let's discuss that specifically further as well.
I'm unable to square that I can just skip all the inspired writings that speak to works explicitly (non mosaic 613 law works) in addition to faith being required for my salvation and yet pick a few other verses because it's easier, more convenient and requires less effort from me.
I must add that I'm taken aback a bit by the distancing you've done on "faith alone" assuming you are a Protestant. This was like the #1 thing for Martin Luther and what became the Protestant Reformation. He wrote extensively on Romans 1:17 and that "faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law".
I don't know that he ever said "grace alone"
So if you if you disagree or it doesnt fit your selective Biblical view it's "spewing"? Are you collapsing under the weight of the argument youre unable to logically make? That tends to be a response when that is happening. tsk tsk
1) Works. Thank you for the clarification on Paul's comments about works. So, just to be clear, you believe that every time Paul refers to works, he is referring to Levitical law, if I am understanding you correctly. So when he says grace alone is sufficient, and that it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, what he really means is that it is by grace through faith and some works that the Catholics have deemed essential to earn salvation, such as going to Mass, getting baptized, and the Eucharist. So, it's not really the "free gift" he claims it to be unless you have a different definition of gift than than reasonable people. Am I summarizing Catholic belief correctly?
I dont believe i've said "every time", again you twist what im saying into something else, but when i respond specifically to the passages you specifically post, i am obliged to point out your incorrectness and in those passages from Paul that you referenced, he is not speaking of the "works" I am speaking of. I've now stated this at least 5 times and yet you still are struggling with it. Again, time number 5, at least, Paul is speaking of "works" there so Jewish Christians that are discussing how the Mosaic Law should be followed by the "works" of the Mosaic law. I dont believe Protestants belive doing the "works" of the Mosaic law is required. Certainly i understand that Catholic doctrine doesnt require that and for millenia, the Catholic writings have confirmed this. Again, it is irrelevant to your "faith alone" (errr grace alone) vs faith (or grace?) + works argument youre struggling to make.
2) Faith alone. Again, I am not sure what you mean by that phrase. Christ did say in his most famous quote in the Bible, "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is Christ saying here, faith alone is sufficient? Obviously, the verse makes no mention of the works you allege are necessary to earn salvation. He doesn't say "Whoever believes in me, and attends mass regularly, and gets baptized, and participates in the Eucharist shall not perish but have eternal life." Sounds pretty scandalous. It sounds like Christ believes mere faith in him is sufficient to get to Heaven. Surely he wasn't a nasty old Protestant, right?
"his most famous quote". By what measure? And what does humans making it the most famous, if that is even true or measurable, (as an example, probably more people per day say the Hail Mary and the verses enshrined there than John 3:16 on planet Earth, but you digress),
This is a key confusion that it seems most (all?) protestants have.
QUESTION 1 - Do you believe once saved always saved? (once you provide an answer to this question, we can go a little further in sharing (apparently) some new perspective.
Now you are leaning on this verse John 3:16 to say that that is all you need because Jesus spoke the words that you are reading in English and transliterating them to what Pastor Bob or whoever says (or even Martin Luther (in the 1500s!!!) said.
So let's play the game the way youre trying to. Let's explore as just one of many many examples that i have already provided yet you are misunderstanding clearly by your responses, Luke 3:3 "No I tell you, unless you repent you will all perish similarly:
Jesus makes no comment of faith in this verse. In John 3:16, Jesus makes no reference to needing to REPENT.
QUESTION 2 - Are you saying that if you only do John 3:16 and "believe" (youre also not fully understanding what that means at least based on your responses) and yet you do not repent as Jesus explicitly calls you to do in Luke 3:3, that you are good and will go to Heaven?
Once you answer those 2 quesitons, we can continue forth as we need to fully understand specifically what you are saying so as to not wiggle all over the place with random straw men so we will keep it simply, only 2 questions for now and then let's proceed.
I suspect the disconnect here is regarding what "faith" means to each of us. I can't speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what it means to me: When a person has faith in Christ, it means that he believes who Christ is (God in human form), recognizes his sin and depravity apart from Christ, and trusts what Christ has done to forgive his sins (sacrificial death and conquering sin through resurrection) to save him. So, yes, "repentance" is a part of faith in Christ. And that faith will indeed result in works, though those are outcroppings of the faith, and not necessities to enter the kingdom of Heaven, as Christ says himself in John 3:16-18. That, to me, is faith.
3) How do I cast aside all of the works "clearly stated" in the Bible. I have tried to address the verses you have cited in support of your position that works are necessary to earn salvation, and believe I have addressed most of them. However, you seem to post treatises and so I may have missed some. With respect to the topic at hand - how do I cast aside works? The answer is: I don't. As I have said repeatedly and consistently, works are an outcropping of our faith, and are expected among Christians. Christians will be "rewarded" in Heaven based on those works at the Bema seat of Christ. They are our fruit, as you have previously discussed. The question is, are works necessary for salvation? Is it truly a "free gift" as Paul tells both his Jewish AND Gentile audiences, and as Jesus alluded to in John 3:16-18, or do you have to actually pay something (i.e. go to church, get sprinkled, participate in the Eucharist)?
Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, none of the verses you have referenced mention any of those things as necessary for salvation. None say, "In addition to having faith in Christ or accepting the free gift of grace, you must also go to Mass, get sprinkled, and participate in the Eucharist." You have certainly made that assumption - an interpretation that I disagree with because it is inconsistent with Christ and Paul's teachings - but that is not what the verses say. Now, again, if a purported Christian lacks fruit, one would rightly question whether he or she is Christian, since works are expected. But once again, it is not free gift if something is required.
4) Matthew 6:1."OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO REWARD FROM YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN". Again, this is the disconnect you and I keep having. The reward that Christ is talking about is, once again, the rewards he doles out to CHRISTIANS at the Bema seat - again, a position the Catholics agree with. There is no evidence that he is talking about salvation here, or punishment, for if he were, his words in John 3:16-18, and all of Paul's teachings that salvation is a "free gift" would be erroneous.
I would never suggest "skipping" the writings that talk about works. I certainly don't skip them and believe that God expects them from Christians as an act of obedience. The disputer here is whether works are "required" for salvation, and once again, I believe scripture is crystal clear they are not. Reward and Salvation have two very different meanings throughout scripture. Indeed, there will be some Christians who enter Heaven by the skin of their teeth - like the thief on the cross. There is NO evidence he participated in any works to be with Christ in paradise. Yet, indeed he was, as Christ said himself.
I've responded in part to your post and also asked 2 questions so we can build this complex topic up slowly. I'm trying to keep you narrowly focused on what you now want to call "grace alone" vs grace + works (i think but youve never answered so as to confirm).
This is super critical to the souls of those that may be misunderstanding so we need to work through this slowly, step by step.
Please respond to my 2 questions noted in bold above and we can then proceed.
John 1
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
These are, I think, the most tragic as well as the most beautiful and the most hopeful words ever written. There seems to be a role for people in this story.
I think we have the choice to receive him as described in verse 12, and this represents a "requirement" for us.
But more specifically, I was looking for something beyond mere belief in my post to Sam. If you've read his posts, he believes certain actions are required beyond mere belief.
Something on our part beyond "mere" belief seems to be involved. Jesus didn't tell his disciples to "believe" in him but to "follow" him.
I would say that no actions are or can be necessary to earn salvation since salvation is not earned.
Death is earned, life is given.
So I am not sure I would say anything beyond Christ's words in John 3:16-18 is actually necessary to be saved. And I believe it is God who chose us, not the other way around.
I think if one invests the time into what was meant by believeth by what was written by those that heard Jesus say this or told to them by those that did, it may be enlightening. It would also clearly debunk OSAS. And many many early church fathers write in this as well and spoke of the expectations.
It also makes very logical sense if you ponder Jesus' own words of the wide path versus the narrow path. That wouldn't seem to align with just saying "I believe". These writings are almost 2,000 years old, many of them, and written by people that were at worst Jesus adjacent and certainly 50+ generations or so before the existence of Martin Luther and Calvin.
To me it is important to ponder what those people said and do a touch base against maybe what one thinks the words mean when we sit down and read the Bible at night or in the morning during our prayer time.
It may be helpful and enlightening. Or not. But at least the attempt would have been made.
