Mothra said:
Fre3dombear said:
Mothra said:
Fre3dombear said:
Mothra said:
Fre3dombear said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Fre3dombear said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Realitybites said:
Harrison Bergeron said:
Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.
Orthopraxy has entered the chat.
Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.
Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?
What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?
What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?
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Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"
I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.
Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.
If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.
Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.
I'll take a shot at this, as the answer is pretty simple.
We ask other believers and brothers in Christ to pray for us because they are 1) believers; and 2) alive. See James 5:16.
Praying to a long dead mortal is like praying to your long dead drinking buddy. It's worthless.
Well a whole ton of context on purgatory and many verses in revelation etc state otherwise
But at worst it's a waste of time and at best….
@mothra - if you have lost a parent or a grandparent etc, you've never prayed for them after their passing or asked them to pray for you or look out for you?
That'd be impressive to stick to one's guns if so. I did have a protestant buddy of mine tell me if someone hadn't been baptized they couldn't go to heaven. I said so what age do you baptize? He said of course when they feel called or generally around 8-12. I said God forbid your son is killed when he chases a ball into the street at the age of say 4. Where does he go?
His jaw dropped. Then I got no answer.
In the end many things we don't "know" definitively and of course so much deoends upon faith but it is interesting to see how the newer denominations reason things out vs the reasoning of the Catholic and orthodox faiths and makes for good discussion
No, there are no verses in Revelation or anywhere else in scripture that state otherwise. In discussions with my Catholic friends on their non-biblical practice of praying to dead relatives, they like you have referenced Revelation, and in particular 5:8 which talks about saints carrying incense, which are the prayers of man. But there are no verses in Revelation that state we should pray to the saints, or request that they take our prayers to God. It's an entirely man-made practice. And for the record, so is purgatory - made up by man. There is no mention of purgatory or anything like it in scripture.
No, I have never prayed to a dead parent, grandparent or any other relative. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I take my prayers directly to him, his father, or the Holy Spirit, although I do ask him to tell them "hi" from time to time.
This is of course incorrect. But you just saying so doesn't make your opinion correct.
Btw do Protestants believe in guardian angels? What is their opinion there?
Interesting. So a Protestant would never say "God, please forgive memaw for all her sins?"
That sounds rather sad if true. Is it because they think it's a sin to pray for them? Or what do they believe is the harm to their own soul to do so?
Feel free to post the scriptural support for your position, if you are able. What specific verses talk about praying to saints?
As for what "Protestants" believe, there is as much divergence among Protestants as there is between Catholics and Protestants, so I can't say what "Protestants" believe. I can say our church believes in angels and guardian angels, as that is scriptural. I can also say our church doesn't believe baptism is necessary for salvation, as there is no scriptural support for that position. That said, there is also no scriptural support for infant baptism.
No, a protestant would never say forgive a dead person for their sins. Once they're dead, it's too late for them. And yes, it is sad. That is why telling others about Jesus is so important to Jesus. Once they're dead, it's too late.
All of what I told you is strongly supported by scripture. I would suggest doing some research before you accept Catholic dogma as the Gospel.
Lol. I appreciate your suggestion.
Many of the things you posted are simply incorrect and we'll build this up over several posts. Had to chuckle at your suggestion though.
And fair point, I won't assume anyone is "Protestant" or Baptist. That of course is one of the challenges with 40,000 denominations of "Christian's" vs a 2,000 year old church like the Catholic faith.
One can drive down the road and just get a different opinion
That's not to say the Catholic faith doesn't have differences as it does and has had heretics, antipopes, etc.
Many even consider the current pop an anti pope and have many good reasons to believe so.
So yes, it's complicated but Much much more consistent across a couple billion people with an overwhelmingly consistent teaching
