Purgatory is not a place, but rather a process. Discuss.
Did Martin Luther believe in purgatory ?
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Last: 4 mo ago by Coke Bear
hodedofome said:
Purgatory is not a place, but rather a process. Discuss.
Scriptural cite for this position?
Fre3dombear said:
Most (all?) protestants believe purgatory does not exist correct? (Assuming adhering to general protestant doctrine)
No idea about what Martin Luther thought, but it doesn't have anything to with "general protestant doctrine"
It is simply doctrine. There is not such thing as purgatory in the Bible itself.
hodedofome said:
Purgatory is not a place, but rather a process. Discuss.
Does this process occur in the presence of God?
Is it separate from God?
Is it a lesser heaven or not heaven but not hell either?
Forest Bueller_bf said:Fre3dombear said:
Most (all?) protestants believe purgatory does not exist correct? (Assuming adhering to general protestant doctrine)
No idea about what Martin Luther thought, but it doesn't have anything to with "general protestant doctrine"
It is simply doctrine. There is not such thing as purgatory in the Bible itself.
Yup.
It's as I said above - he seems to believe protestant denominations are some monolithic group that all share the same beliefs, and that those beliefs are synonymous with Luther's. It's quite odd.
Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
True dat
Best we can do is explain it and hope to bring some back to the church while theres still time
I'd like to say something to ron about the whole idea that Christianity is based on a fiction.
I believe in Jesus Christ not only because the Gospel rings to true to me, but because of personal experience. I recognize that my personal experience will not mean much, if anything to ron, so his skepticism is a crude but honest expression of his position.
But consider this:
Even if it should be that Christianity is just a myth, that when I die I become nothing more than dead matter, a mess for someone else to dispose of, still I would count it a blessing that I learned the Gospel and chose to follow my Lord.
I do not believe in Jesus Christ out of fear that I would be hurt for not following Him, or out of some personal desire to get what I want from Him, like Monty Hall was my King instead of my Lord who plainly warned that this world would hate His followers.
I follow Him because He has proven to be Good.
In my life, I have met a lot of people, and given enough time people will tell you who they are. The thing that surprised me, is how often people were good when there was no particular reason to be, when you might expect them to be selfish.
And having traveled a bit over the years, the places where people are the kindest and most authentic, happen to be where there are the most Christians.
Sure, there are fake Christians, just like there are phonies everywhere in all roles and groups. But there is something I see in many Christians, that makes them crazy good, doing things people would not believe if they did not know the truth.
Christians give more to charity than anyone else, they came up with the first hospitals and free schools. It was Christians who started missions to help the homeless. You can disbelieve as you choose, but those are facts.
So if Christians have such among them, what is the source? I will say plainly that when I was young, I was lazy, selfish and cynical about faith.
God changed me.
Whether you believe that or not is not the point, the point is that something changed in me that made me want to be honorable to my parents, made me want to be worthy of my wife and kids, made me want to do good things just because I could help someone.
If it should prove that I was deluded, that there somehow is no Jesus waiting for me when I leave this earth, still my Lord, even if myth, has made me into a better man than I would have been otherwise, and His gentle reminder that I am here to serve and help, has made me happier than any other way of life could have done.
Ron, I sincerely hope that you find a life of joy and hope, as I have. Please understand I must assert that the most joy and worth you can find is by following Christ.
Thank you for taking the time to read my testimony.
I believe in Jesus Christ not only because the Gospel rings to true to me, but because of personal experience. I recognize that my personal experience will not mean much, if anything to ron, so his skepticism is a crude but honest expression of his position.
But consider this:
Even if it should be that Christianity is just a myth, that when I die I become nothing more than dead matter, a mess for someone else to dispose of, still I would count it a blessing that I learned the Gospel and chose to follow my Lord.
I do not believe in Jesus Christ out of fear that I would be hurt for not following Him, or out of some personal desire to get what I want from Him, like Monty Hall was my King instead of my Lord who plainly warned that this world would hate His followers.
I follow Him because He has proven to be Good.
In my life, I have met a lot of people, and given enough time people will tell you who they are. The thing that surprised me, is how often people were good when there was no particular reason to be, when you might expect them to be selfish.
And having traveled a bit over the years, the places where people are the kindest and most authentic, happen to be where there are the most Christians.
Sure, there are fake Christians, just like there are phonies everywhere in all roles and groups. But there is something I see in many Christians, that makes them crazy good, doing things people would not believe if they did not know the truth.
Christians give more to charity than anyone else, they came up with the first hospitals and free schools. It was Christians who started missions to help the homeless. You can disbelieve as you choose, but those are facts.
So if Christians have such among them, what is the source? I will say plainly that when I was young, I was lazy, selfish and cynical about faith.
God changed me.
Whether you believe that or not is not the point, the point is that something changed in me that made me want to be honorable to my parents, made me want to be worthy of my wife and kids, made me want to do good things just because I could help someone.
If it should prove that I was deluded, that there somehow is no Jesus waiting for me when I leave this earth, still my Lord, even if myth, has made me into a better man than I would have been otherwise, and His gentle reminder that I am here to serve and help, has made me happier than any other way of life could have done.
Ron, I sincerely hope that you find a life of joy and hope, as I have. Please understand I must assert that the most joy and worth you can find is by following Christ.
Thank you for taking the time to read my testimony.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Oldbear83 said:
I'd like to say something to ron about the whole idea that Christianity is based on a fiction.
I believe in Jesus Christ not only because the Gospel rings to true to me, but because of personal experience. I recognize that my personal experience will not mean much, if anything to ron, so his skepticism is a crude but honest expression of his position.
But consider this:
Even if it should be that Christianity is just a myth, that when I die I become nothing more than dead matter, a mess for someone else to dispose of, still I would count it a blessing that I learned the Gospel and chose to follow my Lord.
I do not believe in Jesus Christ out of fear that I would be hurt for not following Him, or out of some personal desire to get what I want from Him, like Monty Hall was my King instead of my Lord who plainly warned that this world would hate His followers.
I follow Him because He has proven to be Good.
In my life, I have met a lot of people, and given enough time people will tell you who they are. The thing that surprised me, is how often people were good when there was no particular reason to be, when you might expect them to be selfish.
And having traveled a bit over the years, the places where people are the kindest and most authentic, happen to be where there are the most Christians.
Sure, there are fake Christians, just like there are phonies everywhere in all roles and groups. But there is something I see in many Christians, that makes them crazy good, doing things people would not believe if they did not know the truth.
Christians give more to charity than anyone else, they came up with the first hospitals and free schools. It was Christians who started missions to help the homeless. You can disbelieve as you choose, but those are facts.
So if Christians have such among them, what is the source? I will say plainly that when I was young, I was lazy, selfish and cynical about faith.
God changed me.
Whether you believe that or not is not the point, the point is that something changed in me that made me want to be honorable to my parents, made me want to be worthy of my wife and kids, made me want to do good things just because I could help someone.
If it should prove that I was deluded, that there somehow is no Jesus waiting for me when I leave this earth, still my Lord, even if myth, has made me into a better man than I would have been otherwise, and His gentle reminder that I am here to serve and help, has made me happier than any other way of life could have done.
Ron, I sincerely hope that you find a life of joy and hope, as I have. Please understand I must assert that the most joy and worth you can find is by following Christ.
Thank you for taking the time to read my testimony.
"I follow Him because He has proven to be Good."
He has proven himself to be Good, because while we were sinners, he died for us and rose from the dead so that we may be made righteous and have eternal life.
KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
Protestants DO worry about what Roman Catholics think. Because what Catholics believe is leading them away from the true saving gospel of Jesus Christ. The concept of purgatory is just one such example.
People are correctly noting that purgatory is not in Scripture. But the problem is far, far worse than that. The concept of purgatory undermines the very gospel. It diminishes Jesus' finished work on the cross, saying that we still need to suffer for our sins. It's saying to Jesus, "Thanks Jesus, for dying for our sins... but you didn't do all the work, there still more that I myself have to pay for." It's an insult to the blood of Jesus, saying that Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete and insufficient to atone for all our sins.
Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Scripture tells us that Jesus' death and resurrection imputes Jesus' righteousness fully to us, a free gift of God's grace that we receive by faith in him alone, not by our works. (Romans 4, Ephesians 2:8-9) What purgatory says, however, is that faith in Jesus does NOT cleanse us from all our sins and does NOT make us righteous, and that our unrighteous works are still left on us and they still need to be paid for, by us. Purgatory steals the glory from Jesus, and it also steals the peace that we can have by knowing that when we die, we will immediately be with him, a peace that Jesus gave himself for us to have. Purgatory, however, makes one morbidly afraid of death, fearful of the punishment that awaits them, and for how long, who knows. This is definitely NOT peace. This is an affront to what God tells us:
"But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed." - Isaiah 53
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."- Romans 5:1
The concept of purgatory degrades one's trust in Jesus' finished work in atoning for all sin - a belief that seriously jeapordizes one's eternal salvation. It's a lie meant to hurt you, make you afraid, and guide you away from true saving faith. So yeah, protestants do care about that.
May TRUE peace TRULY be with you.
Fre3dombear said:KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
True dat
Best we can do is explain it and hope to bring some back to the church while theres still time
Why, and how, could a true believer in Jesus and lover of God EVER be part of a Church that believes and teaches that "THE ALL HOLY ONE", "the peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediator", "salvation of the universe", "the road we must travel to get to God", and that the person through which "salvation can ONLY be obtained"......
....is MARY, not Jesus??
There is little time for all of us, agreed. And the time is running out for you and all other Roman Catholics to open your eyes, hearts, and minds, and WAKE UP.
TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
Please cite an official Magisterial document that states that "Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit."
It is actually quite the contrary. Two documents in Vatican II Lumen Gentium and Unitatis Redintegratio affirm that the Holy Spirit is at work in other Christian communities as well.
The Holy Spirit is present, active, and works in the hearts of people everywhere.
TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
Where is your proof for this? It actuality, protestants actually follow Luther with respect to the fact that everyman can believe there own interpretation of the Bible. Of course, Luther believed that only HIS view was the correct one.
PS. If you can't find a document concerning your comment about the Holy Spirit, can we expect a retraction?
The word "Purgatory" is not found in the Bible, but neither is "sinner's prayer" or "altar call", but protestants seem to believe in them. The word "Trinity" isn't found in the Bible, but there's scriptural evidence for that concept, just like there's scriptural evidence for Purgatory.Mothra said:
Scriptural cite for this position?
Before I get to that I'd like to explain what Purgatory is NOT. It is NOT a denial of Christ's sufficiency on the Cross, nor a "second chance" for salvation.
The Catechism (CCC 1030) states:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
It has the backing of scripture Rev 21:27 "nothing unclean shall enter heaven."
I'll come back to this. Now let's look at scripture in more detail …
2 Maccabees 12:46
"Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.".
This passage deals with after a battle that Judas Maccabeus fought and won, he discovered that the slain men in his army wear wearing pagan amulets. Judas and his men took up a collection of "two thousand silver drachmas and which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice." Verse 43.
This shows that the Jewish faith had/has a custom of praying for the dead.
I realize that some protestants do not accept Maccabees as canon; however, it shows that the Jews, who lived close to the time of Jesus, held this believe in praying for the dead. Today's Jews still make prayers for the dead.
1 Cor. 3:11-15
For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble each man's work will become manifest; for the Day] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Here St Paul is telling us when we build (our works) on the foundation of Jesus they will be tested by FIRE on the Day. What Day? On our Judgement Day.
He says our "gold, silver, precious stones" our good works will be tested in fire. These "gold, silver, precious stones" are not burned up by the fire.
Next he states that our "wood, hay, stubble" our NOT good works will be burned up.
Where does this happen? In heaven, NO. Our bad works cannot follow us into heaven, because we believe John in Rev. 21:27 "nothing unclean will enter heaven."
It can't be Hell, because souls are being saved. No one is getting out of hell.
St Paul tells us that we receive our reward, heaven. Man's bad works are burned up and he suffers loss. We also know that this can't be heaven, we cannot suffer loss in heaven.
It has to be somewhere else. The Church calls this Purgatory.
Another verse that alludes to Purgatory is Matthew 5:24-25
Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
The "last penny" represents the purification process before entering the kingdom of God because no sin can stand before God.
Why do we believe that this "prison" is purgatory?
The Greek used by Matthew for "prison" is phulake. It is the same word that is used by St. Peter, in I Peter 3:19, to describe the "holding place" into which Jesus descended after his death to liberate the detained spirits of Old Testament believers.
Finally, logically we can see the necessity of purgatory.
Other than our atheist friend on here, we all believe John in Rev. 21:27 "nothing unclean will enter heaven."
If most of us look honestly at our souls, we will admit that we all have an attachment to some sin. It could be greed, lust, pride, envy, sloth, gluttony, or wrath.
If we ALL have some attachment to sin, which is in our heart and on our soul, where does this go at the moment of our death? It is still with us. We CAN'T take those sins to heaven.
It has to be purged from our souls. This purgation (or purgative state) is what the Catholic Church calls Purgatory. Call it by any name you want, be we MUST be free from all attachment of sin BEFORE we enter heaven.
There's SO much more that we could discuss about this topic. For those that care, Catholic Answers is a phenomenal source for what the Church truly teaches about Purgatory. The question of Purgatory is literally the Number 1 question asked on their website.
The most thorough book that I've read on this topic is "Purgatory is For Real Good News About the Afterlife for Those Who Aren't Perfect Yet?" by Karlo Broussard.
Coke Bear said:The word "Purgatory" is not found in the Bible, but neither is "sinner's prayer" or "altar call", but protestants seem to believe in them. The word "Trinity" isn't found in the Bible, but there's scriptural evidence for that concept, just like there's scriptural evidence for Purgatory.Mothra said:
Scriptural cite for this position?
Before I get to that I'd like to explain what Purgatory is NOT. It is NOT a denial of Christ's sufficiency on the Cross, nor a "second chance" for salvation.
The Catechism (CCC 1030) states:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
It has the backing of scripture Rev 21:27 "nothing unclean shall enter heaven."
I'll come back to this. Now let's look at scripture in more detail …
2 Maccabees 12:46
"Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.".
This passage deals with after a battle that Judas Maccabeus fought and won, he discovered that the slain men in his army wear wearing pagan amulets. Judas and his men took up a collection of "two thousand silver drachmas and which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice." Verse 43.
This shows that the Jewish faith had/has a custom of praying for the dead.
I realize that some protestants do not accept Maccabees as canon; however, it shows that the Jews, who lived close to the time of Jesus, held this believe in praying for the dead. Today's Jews still make prayers for the dead.
1 Cor. 3:11-15
For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble each man's work will become manifest; for the Day] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Here St Paul is telling us when we build (our works) on the foundation of Jesus they will be tested by FIRE on the Day. What Day? On our Judgement Day.
He says our "gold, silver, precious stones" our good works will be tested in fire. These "gold, silver, precious stones" are not burned up by the fire.
Next he states that our "wood, hay, stubble" our NOT good works will be burned up.
Where does this happen? In heaven, NO. Our bad works cannot follow us into heaven, because we believe John in Rev. 21:27 "nothing unclean will enter heaven."
It can't be Hell, because souls are being saved. No one is getting out of hell.
St Paul tells us that we receive our reward, heaven. Man's bad works are burned up and he suffers loss. We also know that this can't be heaven, we cannot suffer loss in heaven.
It has to be somewhere else. The Church calls this Purgatory.
Another verse that alludes to Purgatory is Matthew 5:24-25
Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
The "last penny" represents the purification process before entering the kingdom of God because no sin can stand before God.
Why do we believe that this "prison" is purgatory?
The Greek used by Matthew for "prison" is phulake. It is the same word that is used by St. Peter, in I Peter 3:19, to describe the "holding place" into which Jesus descended after his death to liberate the detained spirits of Old Testament believers.
Finally, logically we can see the necessity of purgatory.
Other than our atheist friend on here, we all believe John in Rev. 21:27 "nothing unclean will enter heaven."
If most of us look honestly at our souls, we will admit that we all have an attachment to some sin. It could be greed, lust, pride, envy, sloth, gluttony, or wrath.
If we ALL have some attachment to sin, which is in our heart and on our soul, where does this go at the moment of our death? It is still with us. We CAN'T take those sins to heaven.
It has to be purged from our souls. This purgation (or purgative state) is what the Catholic Church calls Purgatory. Call it by any name you want, be we MUST be free from all attachment of sin BEFORE we enter heaven.
There's SO much more that we could discuss about this topic. For those that care, Catholic Answers is a phenomenal source for what the Church truly teaches about Purgatory. The question of Purgatory is literally the Number 1 question asked on their website.
The most thorough book that I've read on this topic is "Purgatory is For Real Good News About the Afterlife for Those Who Aren't Perfect Yet?" by Karlo Broussard.
^
I can only conclude rhe devil has completely distracted prots by their obsession about Catholics veneration of Mary. More valuable use of time would seem a focus on john 6:53 with respect to their souls vs angst of Catholics venerating Mary.
One only has to go to fatima or medjugorje or our lady of guadalupe etc etc and witness those miracles still visible even today and inexplicable by any science or logic and count the souls brought to Catholicism and Jesus Christ and salvation to know
Those that know have always known, those that dont never will(?)
One only has to go to fatima or medjugorje or our lady of guadalupe etc etc and witness those miracles still visible even today and inexplicable by any science or logic and count the souls brought to Catholicism and Jesus Christ and salvation to know
Those that know have always known, those that dont never will(?)
Fre3dombear said:KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
True dat
Best we can do is explain it and hope to bring some back to the church while theres still time
This post is proof positive of what tinfoil hat explained. You guys feel you have a monopoly on the truth and it's your way or the highway to hell.
I just wish you were able to do a better job explaining your anti-scriptural positions. But you can't. Never have been able to.
I hope you find Jesus.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
Protestants DO worry about what Roman Catholics think. Because what Catholics believe is leading them away from the true saving gospel of Jesus Christ. The concept of purgatory is just one such example.
People are correctly noting that purgatory is not in Scripture. But the problem is far, far worse than that. The concept of purgatory undermines the very gospel. It diminishes Jesus' finished work on the cross, saying that we still need to suffer for our sins. It's saying to Jesus, "Thanks Jesus, for dying for our sins... but you didn't do all the work, there still more that I myself have to pay for." It's an insult to the blood of Jesus, saying that Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete and insufficient to atone for all our sins.
Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Scripture tells us that Jesus' death and resurrection imputes Jesus' righteousness fully to us, a free gift of God's grace that we receive by faith in him alone, not by our works. (Romans 4, Ephesians 2:8-9) What purgatory says, however, is that faith in Jesus does NOT cleanse us from all our sins and does NOT make us righteous, and that our unrighteous works are still left on us and they still need to be paid for, by us. Purgatory steals the glory from Jesus, and it also steals the peace that we can have by knowing that when we die, we will immediately be with him, a peace that Jesus gave himself for us to have. Purgatory, however, makes one morbidly afraid of death, fearful of the punishment that awaits them, and for how long, who knows. This is definitely NOT peace. This is an affront to what God tells us:
"But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed." - Isaiah 53
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."- Romans 5:1
The concept of purgatory degrades one's trust in Jesus' finished work in atoning for all sin - a belief that seriously jeapordizes one's eternal salvation. It's a lie meant to hurt you, make you afraid, and guide you away from true saving faith. So yeah, protestants do care about that.
May TRUE peace TRULY be with you.
Right.
Mothra said:Fre3dombear said:KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
True dat
Best we can do is explain it and hope to bring some back to the church while theres still time
This post is proof positive of what tinfoil hat explained. You guys feel you have a monopoly on the truth and it's your way or the highway to hell.
I just wish you were able to do a better job explaining your anti-scriptural positions. But you can't. Never have been able to.
I hope you find Jesus.
Always open to discuss. But your commenta of "you have no scriltural defense of " xyz just shows stubborness. You can disagree sure or say thats not how i interpret it but to say it doesnt exist is being completely blind or simply lying.
Also a lot of it is built on over 1500 years of documented beliefs before some new interpretation came into existence via some schismatics, so forgive all Catholics for collectively sometimes saying huh and wanting to understand how and why a new belief is suddenly valid and should be pivoted to
Mothra said:Fre3dombear said:KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
True dat
Best we can do is explain it and hope to bring some back to the church while theres still time
This post is proof positive of what tinfoil hat explained. You guys feel you have a monopoly on the truth and it's your way or the highway to hell.
I just wish you were able to do a better job explaining your anti-scriptural positions. But you can't. Never have been able to.
I hope you find Jesus.
Id also add, just take Coke's post on purgatory which ive also done here several times with ad nauseum explanation etc
It will go unrrsponded to and youll claim "nobody cited this or that" and "i wish yall would do a better job explaining"
Seems full of hubris or is it something else?
Oldbear83 said:
I'd like to say something to ron about the whole idea that Christianity is based on a fiction.
I believe in Jesus Christ not only because the Gospel rings to true to me, but because of personal experience. I recognize that my personal experience will not mean much, if anything to ron, so his skepticism is a crude but honest expression of his position.
But consider this:
Even if it should be that Christianity is just a myth, that when I die I become nothing more than dead matter, a mess for someone else to dispose of, still I would count it a blessing that I learned the Gospel and chose to follow my Lord.
I do not believe in Jesus Christ out of fear that I would be hurt for not following Him, or out of some personal desire to get what I want from Him, like Monty Hall was my King instead of my Lord who plainly warned that this world would hate His followers.
I follow Him because He has proven to be Good.
In my life, I have met a lot of people, and given enough time people will tell you who they are. The thing that surprised me, is how often people were good when there was no particular reason to be, when you might expect them to be selfish.
And having traveled a bit over the years, the places where people are the kindest and most authentic, happen to be where there are the most Christians.
Sure, there are fake Christians, just like there are phonies everywhere in all roles and groups. But there is something I see in many Christians, that makes them crazy good, doing things people would not believe if they did not know the truth.
Christians give more to charity than anyone else, they came up with the first hospitals and free schools. It was Christians who started missions to help the homeless. You can disbelieve as you choose, but those are facts.
So if Christians have such among them, what is the source? I will say plainly that when I was young, I was lazy, selfish and cynical about faith.
God changed me.
Whether you believe that or not is not the point, the point is that something changed in me that made me want to be honorable to my parents, made me want to be worthy of my wife and kids, made me want to do good things just because I could help someone.
If it should prove that I was deluded, that there somehow is no Jesus waiting for me when I leave this earth, still my Lord, even if myth, has made me into a better man than I would have been otherwise, and His gentle reminder that I am here to serve and help, has made me happier than any other way of life could have done.
Ron, I sincerely hope that you find a life of joy and hope, as I have. Please understand I must assert that the most joy and worth you can find is by following Christ.
Thank you for taking the time to read my testimony.
It was also Christians who led the abolitionist movement leading to the end of slavery in the west. Before that, it was Christians that proved most of the leadership during the Revolution winning independence for the US.
By the way, I like the way you used Pascal's wager. In my mind, your version is better than the original (as I understand it).
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Psalm 119:36
This needs more stars. All excellent points.
We should remember that Jesus did NOT tell the thief on the cross, "Today you will be in purgatory", He said, "Today you will be with me in paradise."
We should remember that Jesus did NOT tell the thief on the cross, "Today you will be in purgatory", He said, "Today you will be with me in paradise."
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Psalm 119:36
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
Protestants DO worry about what Roman Catholics think. Because what Catholics believe is leading them away from the true saving gospel of Jesus Christ. The concept of purgatory is just one such example.
People are correctly noting that purgatory is not in Scripture. But the problem is far, far worse than that. The concept of purgatory undermines the very gospel. It diminishes Jesus' finished work on the cross, saying that we still need to suffer for our sins. It's saying to Jesus, "Thanks Jesus, for dying for our sins... but you didn't do all the work, there still more that I myself have to pay for." It's an insult to the blood of Jesus, saying that Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete and insufficient to atone for all our sins.
Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Scripture tells us that Jesus' death and resurrection imputes Jesus' righteousness fully to us, a free gift of God's grace that we receive by faith in him alone, not by our works. (Romans 4, Ephesians 2:8-9) What purgatory says, however, is that faith in Jesus does NOT cleanse us from all our sins and does NOT make us righteous, and that our unrighteous works are still left on us and they still need to be paid for, by us. Purgatory steals the glory from Jesus, and it also steals the peace that we can have by knowing that when we die, we will immediately be with him, a peace that Jesus gave himself for us to have. Purgatory, however, makes one morbidly afraid of death, fearful of the punishment that awaits them, and for how long, who knows. This is definitely NOT peace. This is an affront to what God tells us:
"But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed." - Isaiah 53
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."- Romans 5:1
The concept of purgatory degrades one's trust in Jesus' finished work in atoning for all sin - a belief that seriously jeapordizes one's eternal salvation. It's a lie meant to hurt you, make you afraid, and guide you away from true saving faith. So yeah, protestants do care about that.
May TRUE peace TRULY be with you.
LOL
Got Peace.
Got happiness.
Going to Mass tonight ( Holy Day of Obligation ) along with millions of others worldwide.
The largest Christian Faith for over 2000 years !
Support the Jews!
Not those Jews!
Coke Bear said:
Maccabees 12:46
"Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.".
This passage deals with after a battle that Judas Maccabeus fought and won, he discovered that the slain men in his army wear wearing pagan amulets. Judas and his men took up a collection of "two thousand silver drachmas and which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice." Verse 43.
This shows that the Jewish faith had/has a custom of praying for the dead.
I realize that some protestants do not accept Maccabees as canon; however, it shows that the Jews, who lived close to the time of Jesus, held this believe in praying for the dead. Today's Jews still make prayers for the dead.
Not those Jews!
KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
Protestants DO worry about what Roman Catholics think. Because what Catholics believe is leading them away from the true saving gospel of Jesus Christ. The concept of purgatory is just one such example.
People are correctly noting that purgatory is not in Scripture. But the problem is far, far worse than that. The concept of purgatory undermines the very gospel. It diminishes Jesus' finished work on the cross, saying that we still need to suffer for our sins. It's saying to Jesus, "Thanks Jesus, for dying for our sins... but you didn't do all the work, there still more that I myself have to pay for." It's an insult to the blood of Jesus, saying that Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete and insufficient to atone for all our sins.
Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Scripture tells us that Jesus' death and resurrection imputes Jesus' righteousness fully to us, a free gift of God's grace that we receive by faith in him alone, not by our works. (Romans 4, Ephesians 2:8-9) What purgatory says, however, is that faith in Jesus does NOT cleanse us from all our sins and does NOT make us righteous, and that our unrighteous works are still left on us and they still need to be paid for, by us. Purgatory steals the glory from Jesus, and it also steals the peace that we can have by knowing that when we die, we will immediately be with him, a peace that Jesus gave himself for us to have. Purgatory, however, makes one morbidly afraid of death, fearful of the punishment that awaits them, and for how long, who knows. This is definitely NOT peace. This is an affront to what God tells us:
"But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed." - Isaiah 53
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."- Romans 5:1
The concept of purgatory degrades one's trust in Jesus' finished work in atoning for all sin - a belief that seriously jeapordizes one's eternal salvation. It's a lie meant to hurt you, make you afraid, and guide you away from true saving faith. So yeah, protestants do care about that.
May TRUE peace TRULY be with you.
LOL
Got Peace.
Got happiness.
Going to Mass tonight ( Holy Day of Obligation ) along with millions of others worldwide.
The largest Christian Faith for over 2000 years !
"Wide is the path that leads to destruction."
"'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace." (Jeremiah 8:11)
Take what's being said seriously. Stop being tribal and seek what is TRUE. I would have thought that rational, intellectually honest people would be able to see that the fact that your Church teaches that salvation is through Mary would clearly show your Church is false. Purgatory and the Catholic mass are other false teachings that also undermine the true gospel of Jesus as well. If you believe and practice what Roman Catholicism teaches, you're in serious, serious trouble. It's not anything to "LOL" about.
Fre3dombear said:Coke Bear said:Mothra said:
Scriptural cite for this position?
2 Maccabees 12:46
"Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.".
This passage deals with after a battle that Judas Maccabeus fought and won, he discovered that the slain men in his army wear wearing pagan amulets. Judas and his men took up a collection of "two thousand silver drachmas and which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice." Verse 43.
This shows that the Jewish faith had/has a custom of praying for the dead.
I realize that some protestants do not accept Maccabees as canon; however, it shows that the Jews, who lived close to the time of Jesus, held this believe in praying for the dead. Today's Jews still make prayers for the dead.
Coke Bear said:Mothra said:
Scriptural cite for this position?
2 Maccabees 12:46
"Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.".
This passage deals with after a battle that Judas Maccabeus fought and won, he discovered that the slain men in his army wear wearing pagan amulets. Judas and his men took up a collection of "two thousand silver drachmas and which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice." Verse 43.
This shows that the Jewish faith had/has a custom of praying for the dead.
I realize that some protestants do not accept Maccabees as canon; however, it shows that the Jews, who lived close to the time of Jesus, held this believe in praying for the dead. Today's Jews still make prayers for the dead.
If the soldiers committed idolatry, it is a mortal sin according to Roman Catholicism, which means they are in Hell, not in purgatory, and no amount of prayers or indulgences will help them.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
Protestants DO worry about what Roman Catholics think. Because what Catholics believe is leading them away from the true saving gospel of Jesus Christ. The concept of purgatory is just one such example.
People are correctly noting that purgatory is not in Scripture. But the problem is far, far worse than that. The concept of purgatory undermines the very gospel. It diminishes Jesus' finished work on the cross, saying that we still need to suffer for our sins. It's saying to Jesus, "Thanks Jesus, for dying for our sins... but you didn't do all the work, there still more that I myself have to pay for." It's an insult to the blood of Jesus, saying that Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete and insufficient to atone for all our sins.
Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Scripture tells us that Jesus' death and resurrection imputes Jesus' righteousness fully to us, a free gift of God's grace that we receive by faith in him alone, not by our works. (Romans 4, Ephesians 2:8-9) What purgatory says, however, is that faith in Jesus does NOT cleanse us from all our sins and does NOT make us righteous, and that our unrighteous works are still left on us and they still need to be paid for, by us. Purgatory steals the glory from Jesus, and it also steals the peace that we can have by knowing that when we die, we will immediately be with him, a peace that Jesus gave himself for us to have. Purgatory, however, makes one morbidly afraid of death, fearful of the punishment that awaits them, and for how long, who knows. This is definitely NOT peace. This is an affront to what God tells us:
"But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed." - Isaiah 53
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."- Romans 5:1
The concept of purgatory degrades one's trust in Jesus' finished work in atoning for all sin - a belief that seriously jeapordizes one's eternal salvation. It's a lie meant to hurt you, make you afraid, and guide you away from true saving faith. So yeah, protestants do care about that.
May TRUE peace TRULY be with you.
LOL
Got Peace.
Got happiness.
Going to Mass tonight ( Holy Day of Obligation ) along with millions of others worldwide.
The largest Christian Faith for over 2000 years !
"Wide is the path that leads to destruction."
"'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace." (Jeremiah 8:11)
Take what's being said seriously. Stop being tribal and seek what is TRUE. I would have thought that rational, intellectually honest people would be able to see that the fact that your Church teaches that salvation is through Mary would clearly show your Church is false. Purgatory and the Catholic mass are other false teachings that also undermine the true gospel of Jesus as well. If you believe and practice what Roman Catholicism teaches, you're in serious, serious trouble. It's not anything to "LOL" about.
Take your arrogance and have a wonderful day
KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
Protestants DO worry about what Roman Catholics think. Because what Catholics believe is leading them away from the true saving gospel of Jesus Christ. The concept of purgatory is just one such example.
People are correctly noting that purgatory is not in Scripture. But the problem is far, far worse than that. The concept of purgatory undermines the very gospel. It diminishes Jesus' finished work on the cross, saying that we still need to suffer for our sins. It's saying to Jesus, "Thanks Jesus, for dying for our sins... but you didn't do all the work, there still more that I myself have to pay for." It's an insult to the blood of Jesus, saying that Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete and insufficient to atone for all our sins.
Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Scripture tells us that Jesus' death and resurrection imputes Jesus' righteousness fully to us, a free gift of God's grace that we receive by faith in him alone, not by our works. (Romans 4, Ephesians 2:8-9) What purgatory says, however, is that faith in Jesus does NOT cleanse us from all our sins and does NOT make us righteous, and that our unrighteous works are still left on us and they still need to be paid for, by us. Purgatory steals the glory from Jesus, and it also steals the peace that we can have by knowing that when we die, we will immediately be with him, a peace that Jesus gave himself for us to have. Purgatory, however, makes one morbidly afraid of death, fearful of the punishment that awaits them, and for how long, who knows. This is definitely NOT peace. This is an affront to what God tells us:
"But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed." - Isaiah 53
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."- Romans 5:1
The concept of purgatory degrades one's trust in Jesus' finished work in atoning for all sin - a belief that seriously jeapordizes one's eternal salvation. It's a lie meant to hurt you, make you afraid, and guide you away from true saving faith. So yeah, protestants do care about that.
May TRUE peace TRULY be with you.
LOL
Got Peace.
Got happiness.
Going to Mass tonight ( Holy Day of Obligation ) along with millions of others worldwide.
The largest Christian Faith for over 2000 years !
"Wide is the path that leads to destruction."
"'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace." (Jeremiah 8:11)
Take what's being said seriously. Stop being tribal and seek what is TRUE. I would have thought that rational, intellectually honest people would be able to see that the fact that your Church teaches that salvation is through Mary would clearly show your Church is false. Purgatory and the Catholic mass are other false teachings that also undermine the true gospel of Jesus as well. If you believe and practice what Roman Catholicism teaches, you're in serious, serious trouble. It's not anything to "LOL" about.
Take your arrogance and have a wonderful day
Telling truth that hits hard is not "arrogance".
Stop putting up ad hominem defense mechanisms and honestly deal with the truth of what's being said. That is what will make me have a wonderful day.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:KaiBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
Protestants DO worry about what Roman Catholics think. Because what Catholics believe is leading them away from the true saving gospel of Jesus Christ. The concept of purgatory is just one such example.
People are correctly noting that purgatory is not in Scripture. But the problem is far, far worse than that. The concept of purgatory undermines the very gospel. It diminishes Jesus' finished work on the cross, saying that we still need to suffer for our sins. It's saying to Jesus, "Thanks Jesus, for dying for our sins... but you didn't do all the work, there still more that I myself have to pay for." It's an insult to the blood of Jesus, saying that Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete and insufficient to atone for all our sins.
Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Scripture tells us that Jesus' death and resurrection imputes Jesus' righteousness fully to us, a free gift of God's grace that we receive by faith in him alone, not by our works. (Romans 4, Ephesians 2:8-9) What purgatory says, however, is that faith in Jesus does NOT cleanse us from all our sins and does NOT make us righteous, and that our unrighteous works are still left on us and they still need to be paid for, by us. Purgatory steals the glory from Jesus, and it also steals the peace that we can have by knowing that when we die, we will immediately be with him, a peace that Jesus gave himself for us to have. Purgatory, however, makes one morbidly afraid of death, fearful of the punishment that awaits them, and for how long, who knows. This is definitely NOT peace. This is an affront to what God tells us:
"But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed." - Isaiah 53
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."- Romans 5:1
The concept of purgatory degrades one's trust in Jesus' finished work in atoning for all sin - a belief that seriously jeapordizes one's eternal salvation. It's a lie meant to hurt you, make you afraid, and guide you away from true saving faith. So yeah, protestants do care about that.
May TRUE peace TRULY be with you.
LOL
Got Peace.
Got happiness.
Going to Mass tonight ( Holy Day of Obligation ) along with millions of others worldwide.
The largest Christian Faith for over 2000 years !
"Wide is the path that leads to destruction."
"'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace." (Jeremiah 8:11)
Take what's being said seriously. Stop being tribal and seek what is TRUE. I would have thought that rational, intellectually honest people would be able to see that the fact that your Church teaches that salvation is through Mary would clearly show your Church is false. Purgatory and the Catholic mass are other false teachings that also undermine the true gospel of Jesus as well. If you believe and practice what Roman Catholicism teaches, you're in serious, serious trouble. It's not anything to "LOL" about.
Take your arrogance and have a wonderful day
Telling truth that hits hard is not "arrogance".
Stop putting up ad hominem defense mechanisms and honestly deal with the truth of what's being said. That is what will make me have a wonderful day.
In your infinite arrogance you maintain everything you post as the only truth.
Been playing the same bizarre game for years.
There is no fixing individuals like you.
So have a very nice day.
Coke Bear said:Mothra said:
Scriptural cite for this position?
The word "Purgatory" is not found in the Bible, but neither is "sinner's prayer" or "altar call", but protestants seem to believe in them. The word "Trinity" isn't found in the Bible, but there's scriptural evidence for that concept, just like there's scriptural evidence for Purgatory.
Before I get to that I'd like to explain what Purgatory is NOT. It is NOT a denial of Christ's sufficiency on the Cross, nor a "second chance" for salvation.
The Catechism (CCC 1030) states:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
It has the backing of scripture Rev 21:27 "nothing unclean shall enter heaven."
I'll come back to this. Now let's look at scripture in more detail …
2 Maccabees 12:46
"Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.".
This passage deals with after a battle that Judas Maccabeus fought and won, he discovered that the slain men in his army wear wearing pagan amulets. Judas and his men took up a collection of "two thousand silver drachmas and which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice." Verse 43.
This shows that the Jewish faith had/has a custom of praying for the dead.
I realize that some protestants do not accept Maccabees as canon; however, it shows that the Jews, who lived close to the time of Jesus, held this believe in praying for the dead. Today's Jews still make prayers for the dead.
1 Cor. 3:11-15
For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble each man's work will become manifest; for the Day] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Here St Paul is telling us when we build (our works) on the foundation of Jesus they will be tested by FIRE on the Day. What Day? On our Judgement Day.
He says our "gold, silver, precious stones" our good works will be tested in fire. These "gold, silver, precious stones" are not burned up by the fire.
Next he states that our "wood, hay, stubble" our NOT good works will be burned up.
Where does this happen? In heaven, NO. Our bad works cannot follow us into heaven, because we believe John in Rev. 21:27 "nothing unclean will enter heaven."
It can't be Hell, because souls are being saved. No one is getting out of hell.
St Paul tells us that we receive our reward, heaven. Man's bad works are burned up and he suffers loss. We also know that this can't be heaven, we cannot suffer loss in heaven.
It has to be somewhere else. The Church calls this Purgatory.
Another verse that alludes to Purgatory is Matthew 5:24-25
Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
The "last penny" represents the purification process before entering the kingdom of God because no sin can stand before God.
Why do we believe that this "prison" is purgatory?
The Greek used by Matthew for "prison" is phulake. It is the same word that is used by St. Peter, in I Peter 3:19, to describe the "holding place" into which Jesus descended after his death to liberate the detained spirits of Old Testament believers.
Finally, logically we can see the necessity of purgatory.
Other than our atheist friend on here, we all believe John in Rev. 21:27 "nothing unclean will enter heaven."
If most of us look honestly at our souls, we will admit that we all have an attachment to some sin. It could be greed, lust, pride, envy, sloth, gluttony, or wrath.
If we ALL have some attachment to sin, which is in our heart and on our soul, where does this go at the moment of our death? It is still with us. We CAN'T take those sins to heaven.
It has to be purged from our souls. This purgation (or purgative state) is what the Catholic Church calls Purgatory. Call it by any name you want, be we MUST be free from all attachment of sin BEFORE we enter heaven.
There's SO much more that we could discuss about this topic. For those that care, Catholic Answers is a phenomenal source for what the Church truly teaches about Purgatory. The question of Purgatory is literally the Number 1 question asked on their website.
The most thorough book that I've read on this topic is "Purgatory is For Real Good News About the Afterlife for Those Who Aren't Perfect Yet?" by Karlo Broussard.
Thanks for the response. I appreciate your attempts to answer the questions. We agree that purgatory is not mentioned anywhere in scripture. Where I think we will disagree is that scripture even alludes to such a place or suggests such a place exists. I do not believe the verse you cited even suggests its existence.
I agree with you that "sinner's prayer" or "altar call" are not mentioned specifically, though Christ tells us on many occasions the key to salvation, and to spread the good news to others. The difference between those terms, and purgatory, is you are literally suggesting the existence of a place that isn't even suggested in scripture, and a path to salvation that differs from what Christ himself said in scripture. So this is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison.
Fre3dombear said:Mothra said:Fre3dombear said:KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
True dat
Best we can do is explain it and hope to bring some back to the church while theres still time
This post is proof positive of what tinfoil hat explained. You guys feel you have a monopoly on the truth and it's your way or the highway to hell.
I just wish you were able to do a better job explaining your anti-scriptural positions. But you can't. Never have been able to.
I hope you find Jesus.
Id also add, just take Coke's post on purgatory which ive also done here several times with ad nauseum explanation etc
It will go unrrsponded to and youll claim "nobody cited this or that" and "i wish yall would do a better job explaining"
Seems full of hubris or is it something else?
I agree you've tried to explain its existence multiple times. The problem is, your arguments are unconvincing, and are not supported by the scriptural record.
I will say this every time you make a specious and unsupported argument. If you don't want to hear that anymore, than I would suggest you stop doing it.
Fre3dombear said:Mothra said:Fre3dombear said:KaiBear said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Mothra said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Martin Luther believed in purgatory at first (after all, he was a Roman Catholic) but ultimately came to reject it, a view he held until he died:
"Purgatory is the greatest falsehood because it is based on ungodliness and unbelief; for they deny that faith saves, and they maintain that satisfaction for sins is the cause of salvation." (Genesis 25:5; AE 4)
"Of purgatory there is no mention in Holy Scripture; it is a lie of the devil, in order that the papists may have some market days and snares for catching money." (I don't have the source, but found it here: https://credomag.com/2013/02/martin-luther-on-the-doctrine-of-purgatory/ )
I think the OP would do well to realize a couple of things: 1) Protestantism is not Lutherism - it's not a new church founded on the beliefs of Martin Luther, and 2) don't be too hasty and post something you just learned about on Catholic apologists' websites or something thinking it's a "gotcha" against the other side, without looking into it more deeply for yourself first. It'll save you the embarassment.
Always humorous to me to see this particular poster treat protestants as some monolithic group who adhere to all of Luther's beliefs.
Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.
LOL
Actually Catholics don't worry about what Prots think.
Very content with our own Faith.
Peace Be With You.
True dat
Best we can do is explain it and hope to bring some back to the church while theres still time
This post is proof positive of what tinfoil hat explained. You guys feel you have a monopoly on the truth and it's your way or the highway to hell.
I just wish you were able to do a better job explaining your anti-scriptural positions. But you can't. Never have been able to.
I hope you find Jesus.
Always open to discuss. But your commenta of "you have no scriltural defense of " xyz just shows stubborness. You can disagree sure or say thats not how i interpret it but to say it doesnt exist is being completely blind or simply lying.
Also a lot of it is built on over 1500 years of documented beliefs before some new interpretation came into existence via some schismatics, so forgive all Catholics for collectively sometimes saying huh and wanting to understand how and why a new belief is suddenly valid and should be pivoted to
Again, this is where we simply disagree. There are no scriptural references to purgatory, and I would argue the one verse Coke cited in no way supports the idea of its existence. One would think that if there were such a place, Jesus, Paul, Peter and the other NT authors would have made specific mention of it. The fact it is not specifically mentioned, or even alluded to, suggests it doesn't exist.
You can continue to complain when I point out you have no scriptural support for your position. The best way to end that is to provide such support, if it exists.
Thanks for your post, Coke Bear. I think I see two problems with your position, however.
The first is that there are a number of places where miracles happened in an instant. When Jesus touched someone, for example, the person was instantly healed. While in some occasions Jesus has the person do something further, it was the lepers who were healed but needed to present themselves to the priests to prove it so they could go home, and also the famous admonition 'go and sin no more'.
We also see the verse about the Rapture, when we are changed "in the twinkling of an eye", if I remember it right.
Nowhere does God say we go from confession to some holding place while we 'get better' from our former sin. Yes, there is sanctification but that is for this world. The closest we get to a Purgatory might be the thousand year rule of Christ, when we all make ourselves ready for eternity.
The other is the whole point of decision. We like to think our decisions don't lock in until we're ready, but Scripture is clear that we sooner or later make the one that binds, and thank God for that, or we would never have peace, with Satan trying between threats and temptations to tear us away from our Lord. I believe that is also a root of the whole OSAS debate. There are clearly some who fall away, yet there are others who are fully sure of who they follow and how they will finish. If it seems that some people never doubt while others never trust, remember what Jesus said to Martha.
In any case that quality of free decision makes Purgatory moot. A man who loves God will count all his earthly treasures and pleasures as nothing to carry with him, while a man who pays lip service to God but does not walk with Him is in deep peril that no amount of purging can take away.
The first is that there are a number of places where miracles happened in an instant. When Jesus touched someone, for example, the person was instantly healed. While in some occasions Jesus has the person do something further, it was the lepers who were healed but needed to present themselves to the priests to prove it so they could go home, and also the famous admonition 'go and sin no more'.
We also see the verse about the Rapture, when we are changed "in the twinkling of an eye", if I remember it right.
Nowhere does God say we go from confession to some holding place while we 'get better' from our former sin. Yes, there is sanctification but that is for this world. The closest we get to a Purgatory might be the thousand year rule of Christ, when we all make ourselves ready for eternity.
The other is the whole point of decision. We like to think our decisions don't lock in until we're ready, but Scripture is clear that we sooner or later make the one that binds, and thank God for that, or we would never have peace, with Satan trying between threats and temptations to tear us away from our Lord. I believe that is also a root of the whole OSAS debate. There are clearly some who fall away, yet there are others who are fully sure of who they follow and how they will finish. If it seems that some people never doubt while others never trust, remember what Jesus said to Martha.
In any case that quality of free decision makes Purgatory moot. A man who loves God will count all his earthly treasures and pleasures as nothing to carry with him, while a man who pays lip service to God but does not walk with Him is in deep peril that no amount of purging can take away.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
I don't think all Catholics believe that salvation is from Mary. That clearly is a false doctrine. Mary was a f sad inner like everyone else, except Jesus, and was not saved unless she repented and believed. Just like everyone else. I have no doubt that she did. She knew who Christ truly was & is better than almost anyone.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Psalm 119:36